[DTK] Narset Transcendent

[xouman]

I remember when Jace appeared. "It is an expensive brainstorm" was a quite popular statement. "I'd play gifts over it, and nobody plays gifts". "You are not playing a 4cc spell with double blue, too expensive". "If you pay 2UU and you don't win in the spot, the card is obviously not playable".

Today we have gone over it and we all know that Jace is one of the most powerful cards ever created. It's a planeswalker with 4 abilities. It lets you control opponent draws, card quality and quantity, it autoprotects (and protects from something like BSC, emrakul or griselbrand) and it's a finisher itself. Narset cannot do that for the same cost, so it's worse in a vacuum. However, can Narset be better than Jace in some scenarios?

1-As said, the cost can be marginally better to cast than  , provide you play a deck with a decent amount of white lands.

2-High loyalty make it good in a field with bolts and heavy aggro. Delver is on the low, but aggro is still quite important (maybe even more) and Narset can be seen as "gain 7 life".

3-Jace +0 is nearly always better than Narset +1, since it's a sure draw, besides filtering. However in case of opponent Notion thief, or with a spirith of the labyrith in table, Narset is better. If we can make sure that Narset is going to draw (using brainstorm, ponder, preordain, jace itself, SDT...) it's a good deal. SDT is particulary good since you can always use its ability to put it in top of the library and draw it. And it's a +1 compared to 0!

4-Rebounding instants/sorceries can be massive with broken cards. However as someone pointed, original spell has to resolve. So narset controller would like heavy counter suite or something like grand abolisher. Well, a UW build can afford both approaches. In a field with few control decks this ability is really good.

5-The finisher is quite powerful in vintage, probably on pair with jace (but I really don't know)


So, in order to ensure Narset is not worse than Jace we should play UW shell. We should be able to manipulate draws, ideally with SDT. We should use value instants/sorceries. But in this point Narset is still not better than Jace, maybe on pair. So maybe it's better to play some kind of split between them.

[enderfall]

But in this point Narset is still not better than Jace, maybe on pair. So maybe it's better to play some kind of split between them.

That's pretty much what makes Narset playable. No one in their right mind would say: "Well, I have room for only 1 Jace/4-mana Plansewalker in this deck but I'm going to replace Jace with Narset because I actually think Narset is better".

Their power will be better in tandem. Narset will almost always be better in your hand than a second Jace, though the first Jace will almost always be better than the first Narset. I could very easily see a 2:1 or 2:2 Jace/Narset split in heavy Control decks (assuming such deck already played Tundra). I think any deck that wants SDT and Tundra will have to strongly consider Narset too, even factoring in the requirement to reveal your card that you put into your hand. This include mentor decks, obv. Narset seems pretty powerful in such decks turning most spells into _______ + make 2 1/1 Prowess Monks.

[fsecco]

And if you don't want to reveal what is on top, you can tap Sensei's Top do draw it an +1 Narset to redraw Top.

[brianpk80]

If I'm not mistaken, this is the only UW Planeswalker we have aside from Venser?  

I like it.  The Rebound mechanic is designed to interact superbly with Prowess; Sensei's Divining Top interacts beautifully with this card; it's all pointing to Monk.dec.  The primary issue with Monk decks is that they are often less than impressive when the Monk is not present early.  I have to wonder if this PW can help enable a UW analogue to Delver where the primary creatures are Seeker of the Way and Monaster Mentor, since both are extremely powerful in Big Mana Top Prowess shells, and the higher threat density at a (relevantly) cheaper mana cost can offset Monk.dec's primary weakness, again, that being impotence in the absence of the Mentor.  Before Monastery Mentor came out, I was toying with Seeker of the Way in a Gush shell and the card in that context was everything UW would ever want from a Stoneforge Mystic but more.  It's definitely playable, just distinctly in the shadow of the Mentor now.  

[diopter]

You are correct though, xouman, we all seriously dropped the ball in Jace. I think we've since learned to apply the lessons from that debacle - see when Dack came out, and a significant portion of the community correctly analyzed that picking the best of the top three cards of your deck every turn is kind of amazing, especially if you're even or slightly behind.

The thing I've really come to understand though, is to imagine playing these spoiled cards in real situations. In this case, typically my planeswalker is going to hit the table either early with a broken Lotus start, or in the midgame after little resource battles from turns 1-3.

Set aside the Lotus starts for now - it's not wise to gameplan around them - and think about the midgame a bit.

My experience with Dack lately is that he can definitely always hit the field with a superfluous mana source still in hand, so he can often immediately convert that into a Blast or Misstep or Bolt. After that, it's just crazy value town.

My experience with Jace lately is that he usually hits the field with no superfluous mana in hand, so his first +0 usually only nets the best one card in the top 3. His second +0 is going to be similar as you need to play the fetch to shuffle, and his third +0 is insane.

I don't get to the third +0 very often these days, for a variety of reasons. Blast is a huge one; Bolt is also a concern; and Jace's loyalty configuration and typical turn played means I'm often having to -1 or +2 somewhere in the middle.

What would Narset look like? Probably similar - if she resolves (a challenge vs Blasts) then often you're depleted in hand of card volume so the -2 is not immediately helpful. The +1, if it hits spicily, is insane value. But a Narset deck is probably playing 23 mana (16 lands) and maybe a couple Snapcasters or Trinket Mages (being naturals in a UW shell) so it's a nontrivial probability that you just get nothing on your first or second +1. So in a largely stack-centered game you will lose against e.g. a Dack wielder.

You are absolutely correct though that Narset might siphon off some life loss as the ultimate threat is real. Defending you, the player, against aggro-control attacks is something Jace is always on its back foot on. Dack, less so, as it comes down earlier and plays well with YP and Monks. Narset could actually function as a couple Healing Salves if your opponent can't threaten lethal. So when you take token resistance into account, Narset might actually be better than Jace. Though you still gotta ask yourself, how much do you really value two free Healing Salves vs Mentor or Delver?

Conclusion: I see Narset maybe functioning at the same speed at Jace, a little more downside against e.g. Gifts and a little more upside against e.g. Mentor.

However, there is no way I want to be doing things at Jace speed against either deck right now. So while I totally think Narsetting adds a new dimension to your strategy, I am skeptical that it will add significant percentage.

To put it another way: the bar right now is set by Dack, not Jace.

[diopter]

Upon further reflection, though, we can also focus on what Narset does really well.

It's never going to have Dack's ability to just slough mana off the top, so set that aside.

I'm also not a huge believer in the ultimate right now - too many token armies to get to 9 consistently.

However, the +1 and -2 interaction is intriguing. If you can build in some virtual mana advantage in your deck so you're hitting more consistently with the +1 (a challenge with the 4 mana planeswalker, set that aside for now though), then even a mediocre +1 can be made insane by the -2.

I'm thinking specifically if your draw, +1 and/or second draw hits Preordain, or even Bolt. Suddenly, a -2 on it the next turn might force your Misstep-holding opponent to blow it.

I have no idea if this is better than just Dacking every turn, but IMO *this* is the raison d'être for Narsetting. Can you build a deck to maximize this? That's the question.

[fsecco]

I'd say a bant Narset with Gushes, Regrowth and Top would be interesting in theory.

[xouman]

@diopter: I haven't really thought of comparing Narset to Dack. I find them quite different. I can see advantages to dack, and some to narset. It's like comparing Dark confidant and monastery mentor: they do different things, so you cannot say which is better. But you can compare mentor and pyromancer, and so I think it's ok to compare narset to jace.

So, comparing Dack to Narset, it really depends on your build, starting from the colors you use. Dack provides aggressive drawing and resilience to mud. Narset promises slower advantage, more dependant on draws (it really needs powerful draws) and it's better closing the game itself.

[MaximumCDawg]

I concur that Dack and Narset are not good cards to compare.  They have almost nothing in common except that they're both not-quite-Jace.  Dack is probably a better overall Walker in the decks that run him now because, like Jace, he's removal and card advantage in one package.  Narset can't claim that.  But she can make your restricted cards absolutely stupid and become Mrs. Mindsulptor once he hits the field.   And, unlike Dack or Jace, she can take a punch.

And those are reasons she is worse than Jace. But I haven't wanted to play with Jace himself in quite a while. Jace's hobbies include dying to Pyroblast and dying to Lightning Bolt and being trampled by hordes of Monks and Elementals. Plus, at four mana, your Gush-playing opponent has already gotten way ahead on board. Now, there was a time when I was playing Jace himself in my Gush decks. He let you transform those otherwise-dead Gushed-up lands into live cards. But, Dack does that for one mana cheaper, while also being a game-breaking card against Workshops.

So, long story short, Narset seems worse than Jace, who himself isn't great right now.

I think you're making two mistakes here.

First, you say that Jace isn't good because he just arrives in time to get a face-full of fists or spells that cost one red mana.  And, since Narset s GENERALLY worse than Jace, she must not be good either.  The problem is that the exact same reason you think Jace is at a low point right now is one of the corner ADVANTAGES Narset has over Jace.  She lives through bolt and can use her abilities twice or more.  She lives through most Alpha strikes that wasn't going to kill you outright anyway.  (That is, if the opponent is in a position to swing for 7+, there's a strong likelihood that they hit you in the face regardless of what Walker you have.)  She does die to Red Blast, it's true, but that's one-third of the problems Jace faces.

If I want a Walker, and if I expect my opponents to be casting Bolt and swinging with 3/2 fliers or a swarm of 1/1s as their plan to deal with it, Narset is more resilient than Jace is.

Second, Narset's second ability is really good.  Consider this card:

Seal of Fork 2UW
Seal of Fork enters the battlefield with 3 Charge counters.  
Remove a charge counter: Copy the next spell you cast this turn.  Use this ability only once each turn.

I think that card is stupidly powerful.  Narset is more vulnerable than that, but she also has the advantage of doing something useful when you're not forking, dodging yard removal tricks, potentially going off more than three times, and winning the game if unopposed.

I agree you might or might not jam her depending on what meta you expect.  A meta hostile to Jace is probably (but not necessarily!) also hostile to Narset.  Shops, in particular, probably eats this girl for breakfast.  But I think it's a mistake here to think of Narset as just linearly worse than Jace.

As an aside, I was totally on your side of the argument with Kiora because she doesn't really do enough to justify herself.  Exploring twice, if you're lucky, and dying to everything Jace dies to plus more made her just about strictly inferior in my book.  I don't feel that way about Narset.

And if you don't want to reveal what is on top, you can tap Sensei's Top do draw it an +1 Narset to redraw Top.

So many top interactions.  Given this, what about Counterbalance returning to the format?

4x Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Mentor
2x Jace
2x Narset

+ Cantrips
+ Permission
+ Restricted stuff

Seems like an interesting place to start.

[xouman]

4x Top
3x Counterbalance
3x Mentor
2x Jace
2x Narset

+ Cantrips
+ Permission
+ Restricted stuff

Seems like an interesting place to start.

While I like the idea, that deck seems to fold upon any sphere (or nearly). It looks really slow. I think that a traditional bomberman (also a slow deck, but with a bit of more action) could use one or two just as a late bomb. But one problem with narset is that it goes worse as the match advances (assuming you are casting your bombs, and so losing the oportunity to rebound them).

[diopter]

Whoa, what? Stop the train. Narset can't be compared to Dack? How are you planning to use Narset?

All three are fundamentally derivatives of Necropotence - they feed you a constant stream of live cards, with the idea that eventually the live cards will sequence into a win. That's not just theorycraft - it's how they're used or will be used in practice.

I can't think of a better benchmark for Narset right now than Dack.

[MaximumCDawg]

Whoa, what? Stop the train. Narset can't be compared to Dack? How are you planning to use Narset?

All three are fundamentally derivatives of Necropotence - they feed you a constant stream of live cards, with the idea that eventually the live cards will sequence into a win. That's not just theorycraft - it's how they're used or will be used in practice.

I can't think of a better benchmark for Narset right now than Dack.

They're just not the same thing.  Planeswalkers are not just raw card advantage engines -- that's the miscalculation lots of people made with Jace.

They make your deck more dense by filling multiple roles.  Dack functions as artifact removal, mana acceleration, AND card advantage.  Jace is creature removal, card advantage, AND a win condition.  Narset is card advantage, a repeatable fork effect, AND a win condition.   The trick to an effective Walker, once it's efficient enough for Vintage, is finding a deck where these multiple roles are material and help the deck streamline itself better while doing what it wants to do.

[serracollector]

So why not play super friends with two jace two dack and two narset and control?

[diopter]

The miscalculation people made with Jace was not realizing it did an OK job of being a weak blue Necropotence. Statements like "for 4 mana I just want to win" were bandied about, which was ironic because at the time a 4 mana half-as-good-as-Necropotence in blue was the very definition of win.

Once people realized how insane the +0 was in a fetchland base, it was played widely (the format was slow as molasses back then) and the added flexibility dictated how useful it was when your deck wasn't operating optimally.

The same song and dance happened with Dack, predictably.

Maybe I just think about things differently. I respect the flexibility but I'm totally focused on the 85% mushy middle than the 15% outliers, and to me the 85% dictates that Narset will be terrible UNLESS you build towards reliably doing -2 on Preordains or Git Probes. The latter is a winning sequence because turning your plentiful cantrips into Mini-Ancestrals is maximizing the Necropotence-like nature of Narset, which in turn enables you to spit out Tinkers with protection or insane Mentors way better than your opponent.

[fsecco]

So why not play super friends with two jace two dack and two narset and control?

You mean this? http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46116.msg659872#msg659872

[sirgog]

If you have a Preordain, it strikes me that it's better to cast it then +1, than to -2 then cast it.

[diopter]

If you have a Preordain, it strikes me that it's better to cast it then +1, than to -2 then cast it.

In my experience, most Preordains I cast will bottom a terrible card, so the +1 is still a wildcard. I really like the idea of digging four and getting the best two ... At UU, does that effect remind you of anything currently played?

[vaughnbros]

So why not play super friends with two jace two dack and two narset and control?

You mean this? http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46116.msg659872#msg659872

Even with Narset, I don't think its enough planeswalkers yet.  From my testing I think that you need close to like 15 copies of great planeswalkers.

[brianpk80]

I didn't realize this until this afternoon but one context where Narset's loyalty attribute really can make all the difference is in the Oath Shell (I'm thinking Salvagers Oath which is naturally Uwg to begin with).  In a situation where Planeswalkers are under constant assault not only from opposing creatures but from Orchard tokens, 7 Loyalty after 1 activation is in fact a major nontrivial selling point.   

[MaximumCDawg]

Thats what I've been saying.  It's like Atog Lord said -- Jace's biggest liability at the moment is that he dies to everything almost immediately.  It's a rare deck that doesn't have an immediate answer for him.  Narset?  You resolve her, and she demands a red blast NOW or she's going to be enabling something potentially very sick next turn.  Possibly the next two turns.

[diopter]

For every sick line enabled (e.g. double Ancestral with Misstep backup), there are multiple decidedly nonsick lines (no cards in hand, land on top).

I'm behind Narset, if you can make it more consistently impactful. For four mana, consistency is required because otherwise better options exist. The +1/-2 interaction is the only way I see this remotely happening, in an extremely cantrip heavy shell to
A.) reduce the number of total lands
B.) get you to Narset or Mentor quickly
C.) consistently provide action under Narset or Mentor

[brianpk80]

For every sick line enabled (e.g. double Ancestral with Misstep backup), there are multiple decidedly nonsick lines (no cards in hand, land on top).

I'm behind Narset, if you can make it more consistently impactful. For four mana, consistency is required because otherwise better options exist. The +1/-2 interaction is the only way I see this remotely happening, in an extremely cantrip heavy shell to
A.) reduce the number of total lands
B.) get you to Narset or Mentor quickly
C.) consistently provide action under Narset or Mentor

Essentially, full power with Gush and multiple Sensei's Divining Tops.  Sounds very amenable to a Monk shell.  "Free" spells also you to enable her -2 the turn she comes into play, ie tap out for Narset, use -2 play Probe or Gush. 

[Guli]

I find Narset tempting, it can ultimate rather fast. If you can sneak in a Time Walk in there after the turns Narset hits, that is already saying 'pass the turn, do something or you lose'. And the ultimate is an effect I would welcome in my decks.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm starting to wonder if the reason they printed Narset as pushed as they did was to toss a bone to the eternal community.  So far, we have lots of spoilers for Dragons of Tarkir, and... I feel like a nerd saying this, but I think we got more playable cards out of Theros than Dragons so far.  This seems to be a set designed around Timmy, with big dumb things that are not quite as big and dumb as Eldrazi or Demons formerly locked in the Helvault. 

Heck, we havn't even had the usual parade of threads about bad cards we get each spoiler season.  (Just one glorious and terrible one.)

Fingers crossed; we got lots more cards to see.  So far, though, I'm not impressed with much past this fine lady.

[xouman]

@MaximumCDawg: I have the same feeling, I have counted 32 rares+mythics and I'm a bit dissapointed about the applications for vintage. Megamorph itself is pretty bad (you don't want to play  for a 2/2). Dash is no better. Being a dragons set, maybe we get som good fatty, but I don't expect anything better than griselbrand, emrakul or BSC...

[fsecco]

Maybe we're back to the days where sets only revealed 1 or 2 Vintage playable cards. It's ok for me though. We got so many changes this past year and with Gifts unrestricted that I feel fine having time for the dust to settle.

EDIT: And not having to buy Standard legal singles is great. I have yet to own a single Monastery Mentor...

[brianpk80]

I'm starting to wonder if the reason they printed Narset as pushed as they did was to toss a bone to the eternal community.  So far, we have lots of spoilers for Dragons of Tarkir, and... I feel like a nerd saying this, but I think we got more playable cards out of Theros than Dragons so far.  This seems to be a set designed around Timmy, with big dumb things that are not quite as big and dumb as Eldrazi or Demons formerly locked in the Helvault.  

Heck, we havn't even had the usual parade of threads about bad cards we get each spoiler season.  (Just one glorious and terrible one.)

Fingers crossed; we got lots more cards to see.  So far, though, I'm not impressed with much past this fine lady.

Khans of Tarkir was really underwhelming as it was being spoiled but at the end of the cycle, we suddenly had cards so powerful one was the first restricted in the format since 2009.  The highlights here will again determine its final judgment.  The average power level of this set is notably higher than the Theros's.  Even with no further cards spoiled, the already set yields more than Swan Song and the Seven Hundred Holy Strengths.  

Keep in mind some of the cards are difficult to assess because they have so many modes.  I can only vaguely recall the modes of the RtR Charms; I won't know right off the bat if any of the Dragon commands or other cards with multiple abilities are subtly at some sweet spot where they shore up some peculiar weakness of an old deck making it relevant now or in the future.  It takes a while to process all of the different cards to determine if one of them plays a role; for instance, no one thought Exava, Rakdos Bloodwitch was anything to look at when Dragon's Maze was spoiled but it turned out to be a perfect foil in Human Caverns for a field largely crawling with BUG Fish and Landstill.  

By contrast, when I see something out of Theros like the notorious 6-mana Sorcery Speed Arc Lightning (that in many ways was the purest quintessence of Theros itself), I know right off the bat it's not worth a second thought.  I already see things in this set that get the wheels turning: Narset, Dragonlord Dromoka, Atarka's Command, Ultimate Price (Modern Gifts mostly, where you want a lot of Doom Blade variants with different names), Sidisi, Ojutai Exemplars, Profound Journey (Dream Halls style thinking, when you just have to have that Nicol Bolas cheated into play), and the 3 CMC Morphling.  Many won't make the cut in Vintage but a few will, perhaps in decks no one has even designed yet, in the vein of someone finding "the perfect card" for an innovative list in a Gatherer search 10 years from now.  Who would have thought Orzhov Pontiff would ever become a cross-format staple, even appearing in Vintage?  When the cards are reasonably priced, there is always the chance of future resurfacing.  This set is will be far more fertile than Theros.  We don't even know what the marquee efficient Rebound utility spell from the set will be or what kind of hate-bear posturing the monowhite Anafenza will have.  

[fsecco]

Ultimate Price is a reprint if I remember correctly. Aside from that, I agree there are a few nice cards. Ojutai's Exemplar is one that sounds really bad, but may be good. Guli is already saying good thing of it in the Humans topic.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, I'm not saying this set is as bad as Theros.  (Although I do think you are still a tad extreme in your Theros loathing).  Theros had many mechanics that were simply not interesting or triggers that were to hard to pull off and were designed to thwart ways of exploiting them.  It was a local minimum in set value, surely since Alara.

I completely agree that the Tarkir block is, on the whole, vastly superior to Theros.  We've got tons of interesting cards with unique abilities, mixed up abilities in new ways, and tons of fun things to do.  The Ascendancy cycle alone demonstrates how wacky Khans was going to be, mechanically, and I LOVE IT.  I roll around in it.

But a fun set doesn't mean a Vintage set, right?   What I'm saying is that I Dragons doesn't appear to be producing many playable Vintage cards -- yet.  PAX East is today, so perhaps that will change.

I already see things in this set that get the wheels turning: Narset, Dragonlord Dromoka, Atarka's Command, Ultimate Price (Modern Gifts mostly, where you want a lot of Doom Blade variants with different names), Sidisi, Ojutai Exemplars, Profound Journey (Dream Halls style thinking, when you just have to have that Nicol Bolas cheated into play), and the 3 CMC Morphling.

I dont think any of those save Narset have a ton of potential, but we'll see.

[brianpk80]

I dont think any of those save Narset have a ton of potential, but we'll see.

The Dragonlord Dromoka is a wonderful combination of two cards I ran in my Salvagers Oath sideboard--Grand Abolisher and the back-up Sphinx of the Steel Wind.  I will definitely collapse those two slots into one.  Given how often I ended up casting these monsters from hand, I definitely look forward to only having to muster up 4GW (with built in Cavern protection) rather than 5UBW.