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Author Topic: Stone Cold Humans: The Best Kept Vintage Secret  (Read 16531 times)
Stormanimagus
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« on: March 05, 2015, 01:36:24 am »

STONE COLD HUMANS: THE BEST KEPT SECRET —
A VINTAGE PRIMER




My name is Noah Smith, but many of the Vintage community may know me best for my online presence on these forums, and for my contributions to the Noble Fish and Humans archetypes. I have always been fascinated by value hate decks in Vintage and that fascination has grown into a vested interest ever since the printings of Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap and Lodestone Golem have made my other favorite archetype, storm combo, a dubious deck choice for tournaments. I was particularly saddened by the printing of Mental Misstep as it gave a large number of blue decks a maindeckable answer to Dark Ritual and Duress in the same card that requires merely an often irrelevant 2 life to cast. It’s not that I’ve totally abandoned my first love, combo, but I acknowledge that piloting TPS to a top 8 at a large Vintage event is no small feat and requires some things to go your way. One of the decks that gives the greediest decks in Vintage a chronic headache is the giant stone elephant in the room: Mishra’s Workshop decks. Many vintage strategists completely misunderstand this archetype and I’d like to debunk some common myths before delving into the deck I’ll be talking about in this article: Stone Cold Humans. Here are the reasons why a deck with no visible draw engine actually competes with the likes of Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Tinker, Gifts Ungiven, and company.
   
1. Shops decks have the namesake of Mishra’s Workshop as a reusable Black Lotus with virtually no drawback. As such, the curve of the deck can start much higher than most Vintage decks are allowed to. Since the deck is colorless you have immunity to color screw and only need to worry about the total cmc of any spell. The curve starting higher increases the utility of artifacts at the 3-5 cmc slot that would otherwise be too slow for Vintage (see Trinisphere)

2. The lock pieces in Shop decks are almost universally effective and have very little symmetry in hurting the Shop deck. In other words, a card like Tangle Wire tends to be nothing but value when you already have cards like Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance to Tap down to it. You are left with all relevant permanents untapped through your own Tangle Wire while your opponent remains “Tangled.”
   
3. The virtual card advantage gained through these lock pieces often makes up for the lack of a “real” draw engine because you are effectively creating dead draws for your opponent.

Now, one of the main reasons Shops isn’t adopted in as large numbers as blue is the feeling many Vintage pilots get of the deck being big, dumb, unfun, and underpowered. I personally think that too many players also think it to be a coin-flip deck requiring less play skill to win with. Nothing could be further from the truth. Good shop players win with the deck precisely because of play skill and bad shop players lose due to mistakes just like blue players do. I daresay that shops is actually LESS forgiving of mistakes than blue is because the high variance of blue decks can allow the blue pilot to win games he/she had no business winning thanks to a timely top deck. Shops can get timely top decks as well but I like to think of shop-esque decks as a ship that sails out of the harbor towards victory or defeat. You can steer the ship one way or the other but once you’re drifting in one direction you tend to stay on that heading until the end of the game. In other words, I think shop games are harder to turn around with a single top deck than blue games are. The variance is lower and it tends to be cumulative sequencing of draws/plays that win or lose the game.
Shops decks also test another skill that I find lacking in the blue arsenal: baiting. Now you might say “wait Noah, don’t blue decks bait when they have a bomb they are trying to protect from counter magic?” This is true, but I find that blue players often look at the concept of “baiting” only in the context of mirror matches where both players are slinging around Forces, Missteps, Flusters, Pyros etc. You are never really “baiting” when playing vs. shops as the blue pilot so why would a blue player have experience with it? The experience of leveraging counter wars to your advantage employs a different line of sequencing than simply expecting a threat to be countered and maximizing your plays based on that expectation. On the shop side there are countless decision trees that span out multiple turns that have to do with sequencing, baiting, and anticipating the line(s) your opponent will attempt to make to win. This is where the “next level” skill of shops comes in. You need to know ALL the decks you might face intimately in order to predict what they will do to win. This takes an incredible knowledge of the format and knowledge of the mechanics of all the top tier decks. If I know you are building towards a Dack + time walk turn on turn 4 or a hurkyl’s into upkeep vamp for Time Vault plan on turn 5 or a Dig Through Time on turn 5 into Academy into Mentor into Sensei’s Top then I can play around such plays to the best of my ability. Knowing your opponent’s fundamental turn and how they intend to break out of your lock is integral to winning with shops. A full understanding of shops goes much deeper than this, but this isn’t a shops primer so now on to the main event. First, the list:

Stone Cold Humans

Land (24):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus            
1 Mox Emerald         
1 Mox Pearl            
1 Mox Jet            
3 Chalice of the Void         

Enchantments (3):
3 Stony Silence         

Creatures (23):
4 Deathrite Shaman         
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben   
4 Dark Confidant         
3 Grand Abolisher         
3 Qasali Pridemage         
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric         
3 Knight of the Reliquary      

Instants (3):
3 Abrupt Decay         

Sideboard (15):
3 Containment Priest         
1 Abrupt Decay         
2 Swords To Plowshares      
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Plains
3 Gaddock Teeg         


This deck as been a brainchild of mine for many years and also Guli from TMD. I have to give him a lot of credit for the initial build and some of the pillars of the deck that we will be discussing in detail. This deck ports a lot of tech from Legacy Maverick, but don’t be fooled, it really isn’t the same deck. There are many card choices that make this as “Vintage” as they come. I also want to address the misnomer that this is a “hate-bear” deck. It runs some “hate-bears” but it is much more than a simple hate-bear strategy. It runs a tutor engine in Knight of the Reliquary that doubles as the deck’s main win-con while also being a functional source of recurring wasteland effects. The deck also “forces” non-interaction from a key blue card in vintage: Force of Will. It does this through cards like Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay, Grand Abolisher and Gaddock Teeg. Now I would like to unravel the deeper meaning of my Shop preamble. I see this deck as a cousin to the Workshop archetype. That might be a somewhat grand claim, but as I explain the functionality of cards in the deck it might start to make some sense.

Ok, let’s go through the cards one at a time:

1. The Creatures

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - The centerpiece of the deck and a 4-of despite being Legendary. The reasoning for her as a 4-of is that you almost always want to see her by turn 2 and she is the first creature to get offed by the countless cheap removal spells for X/1’s that exist in Vintage. Thusly, you want to have a second Thalia to carry the banner after the first one gets it. Thalia, is probably the second best “sphere” effect printed in Vintage after Lodestone Golem and she even has some upside by being only 2 mana and having first strike. (Neat aside: Thalia + Mayor actually defeats Golem in combat Smile).  She is often sided out vs. shops but really only in that matchup. She has applications almost everywhere else. Making preordains into a 1U cantrip is pretty good I hear. The non-creature clause can be an issue vs. Delver and Mentor but we have other goodies for those cards.

Dark Confidant - Probably the second most important dude of this deck. Dark Confidant is very close friends with Knight of the Reliquary in Vintage and is an insane turn 1 play off a mox. “Bob” has been a mainstay of Vintage for many years since his inception and I feel confident in saying that this deck abuses him as much as any Vintage deck ever has. This deck’s curve tops out at 3 and most of the cards in the deck are 2-drops or 0 drops (ie, land, moxen and chalices) so Bobs tend to be pure value and help you filter through your high land count faster. Bob is also a key way to keep the permanents streaming in vs. shops where a missed land drop can mean death.

Knight of the Reliquary - Now we get to Bob’s best friend and the theme of this deck. Can I say enough about this card? I fear I can’t. Knight is a Tarmogoyf, Crucible, Crop Rotation, Swords to Plowshares and Wrath of God all rolled into 1 card. Let’s now unpack why I’m making this claim. Knight is a Tarmogoyf at times because he grows to large sizes by virtue of the land-base we run. Fetch lands grow him at an alarming clip and wastelands a modest one. Knight is a Crucible in the sense that you can often play a wasteland on consecutive turns with his tutor ability and “waste-lock” your opponent. You have to spend more resources than Crucible to achieve this, but you are always growing Knight in the process so the net gain is often still there. Knight is a Crop Rotation because it can tutor up any land in your deck. Knight is a Swords to Plowshares because he can tutor up Maze of Ith and hold a giant monster at bay indefinitely (especially vs. blue decks that run few or no waste effects). Knight is a Wrath of God when he can tutor up The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and your opponent is locked on mana (something this deck is exceedingly good at doing). Now clearly I’m exaggerating a bit for effect, but I think my meaning is clear: Knight is a swiss army knife that has incredible heretofore untapped Vintage potential. I see a lot of “Junk hate-bear” lists running a singleton Knight and 1-2 Green Sun’s Zenith. I have thought long and hard about this approach and have come to the conclusion that simply running more knights is better. Knights in multiples are also rarely a bad thing. Worth noting is Knight’s ability to dodge most removal. His toughness is generally too high for Lightning Bolt, Pyroclasm and Massacre to matter. Toxic Deluge also becomes a losing proposition when you’re forced to pay 7 life just to kill a Knight.

Qasali Pridemage - This little Seal of Cleansing on a body has been tearing up the Vintage scene in “hate-bears” ever since it was printed. Pridemage is a fundamentally important and efficient answer to shops, Oath, Time Vault, and even just random moxen. It’s also very significant that he gets in there for 3 on his own because that makes him a much more dangerous mid game top deck. I’d never leave home without at least 3 in my 75.

Deathrite Shaman - The mana dork on crack. I was on the fence with this guy for many years and have gone back and forth with splitting him and Noble Hierarch for some time. I used to run 3 Nobles and 2 Shamans and after much testing I’ve found that Deathrite should just be a 4-of and, sadly, Noble should get the boot. If I knew my meta was heavy on shops I might find room for 1-2 Nobles in the deck, but I don’t think I’d ever go down on Shamans to do it. Shaman is just amazing in multiple match-ups and is a much more maindeckable mana dork. I’ve found that this deck doesn’t really need a mana dork to curve out vs. blue so having a guy like this with added utility is key for that matchup (even though we side out 1-2 copies vs. many blue archetypes). Against shops this guy is a godsend as he can keep you from waste-locks and really just shuts down the usefulness of Crucible of Worlds. He also is a mana dork in a matchup that revolves largely around mana denial. Shaman also has marginal effectiveness against the delve mechanic (often not stopping the first delve spell but sometimes hindering the 2nd one), and it can stop slow draws from Dredge. Amazing card!

Grand Abolisher - This might be one of the most controversial includes of the deck. It has been a late addition, but I’m already in love with the card. This card is far more than a way to resolve your spells through countermagic. It turns off some of the most gnarly plays that blue decks can throw at us. From end-of-turn Repeals to end-of-turn tutors to end-of-turn Gifts to end-of-turn Sensei’s Top activations (or draw with Top in response to Decay) to Gush in response to Wasteland etc., etc., etc., this card really packs an amazing punch. I actually kind of equate this card to Tangle Wire in a shops deck because, while it doesn’t actually “sphere” out any spells, it forces opponents to cast spells during limited phases of the game (i.e only on their turn) while not forcing you to do the same.

Eidolon of Rhetoric - This is also a very controversial card that I think some folks might not agree with at first. All I can say is: TEST IT! It is very effective at stopping Mentor and Storm decks alike and has reasonable applications in slowing down Gifts. This was originally included as an answer to the new Monastery Mentor card and it attacks on a unique front: preventing multiple prowess triggers a turn. This guy is also conveniently out of bolt range and can block Mentors all day long. Hopefully, when coupled with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and other soft hate, we will just barely get there vs. Mentor to win the match. Eidolon is not a human but Abolisher helps him to resolve and 4 caverns often means you can name a second creature type beyond “human” in a lot of games.

2. The Other Static Hate

Stony Silence - This is pretty much just better than Null Rod. It’s inclusion is pretty obvious. It stops as many as 8 (or more) mana producers in most decks and also cards like Time Vault, Goblin Charbelcher, Sensei’s Divining Top, Seat of the Synod and more. It also notably stops Engineered Explosives. I think Null Rod is a known enough quantity in vintage such that I needn’t go into any more detail than this.

Chalice of the Void - This card is so bonkers in this deck I can’t even begin to speak highly enough of it. Mainly you’ll be using it on turn 1 as a moxen-stopper when you either don’t have Stony Silence in hand or need to stop moxen on turn 1 in order to not lose (TPS would be a matchup where such speed might be needed). Chalice can often be set @1 against Delver despite making your future Deathrite Shamans uncastable (and not totally uncastable if you also have a Cavern of Souls set to “shaman” in play). Chalice allows insane openers like Chalice @0 + Thalia off a mox. This card has already significantly warped the vintage format in shops builds and this deck is only too happy to abuse the crap out it as well.

3. The Spot Removal

Abrupt Decay - This deck doesn’t need to run a lot of spot removal because of the efficiency of the static hate, but this one is uniquely awesome in that it is uncounterable and takes out many key cards in Vintage for the bargain cost of BG. This is a primary answer to Oath of Druids, Time Vault, Mentors, Delvers, Pyromancers, Crucibles, Tangles and many other widely played aggro threats. This card is also an answer to Chalice @2 vs. shops.

4. The Lands/Artifact Mana

Cavern of Souls - This is the card that makes this deck as viable as it is. Cavern single-handedly puts creature decks like this on the map where before they would often just get out-tempoed by blue. Cavern is also a critical card for playing around Chalice @2 vs. shops.

Windswept Heath - Fetchland manabase with basic Forest and Plains. Fuels Knight. ‘Nuff said.

Verdant Catacombs - Fetchland #5. I’ve found 5 fetches to be the correct number.

Savannah - We need white and green very often. Hence we run 2 of these.

Scrubland - This casts Deathrite Shaman and Thalia. Hence we run 2 of these.

Bayou - This helps cast Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant and Abrupt Decay. It also helps with Deathrite Shaman’s activated abilities. Hence we run 1 of these.

Forest - This helps keep our manabase from being waste locked if we can resolve a Deathrite Shaman. Run 1 of these and profit Smile.

Wasteland - Mana Denial of the deck. Knight makes you want to run the full 4.

Strip Mine - Strictly better than Wasteland. Restricted to 1.

Karakas - Bounces key legends like Griselbrand, Emrakul, Karn, Tasigur, and your own Thalia when Thalia is targeted by removal. Also taps for white which is very relevant.

Gaea’s Cradle - This land offsets the negative effect of either yours or your opponent’s Tabernacle and can just beat sphere effects. It was a recent addition along with Tabernacle and I’ve been loving it.

Maze of Ith - Great answer to Tinker targets or problematic beaters. Also very usable on offense with Knight of the Reliquary. There is a sweet trick where you attack with Knight and then use Maze to untap the Knight during the “end combat” step. This allows you to attack with Knight and use his activated ability in the same turn. This actually comes up more than one would think.

The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale - This land is a nod to the utter broken power of Mentor and Pyromancer. Being able to tutor this puppy up ends games. Plain and simple. It is also a key out to Dredge’s zombie token army. Insane card!

5. The Sideboard

Containment Priest - Well, R & D finally threw us creature decks a huge bone! This guy is simply insane vs. Oath, and Dredge and at an acceptable mana cost. He can also be sided in as an out to Forgemaster or Tinker but it’s often less clear that he should be sided in in those circumstances. Priest is preemptive hate that is also reactive/surprise hate that can force an opponent to commit the card that Priest answers to the stack (Show and Tell, Tinker, Narcomoeba etc.). This extra value puts Priest over the top in power level, in my opinion. Don’t leave home without at least 3!

Abrupt Decay - See maindeck.

Swords to Plowshares - Sometimes you just need more cheap removal (i.e against shops, Mentor, Delver or the mirror) and while Plow lacks synergy with your own Chalice @1 it is often online vs. blue because they will bend over backwards to deal with Chalice @1 and then plow will be there waiting. With an active Abolisher you can also cast Plow without worrying about counters.

Mayor of Avabruck - This card is primarily in the deck to beat shops out of the board. It is one of the most uniquely cheap and efficient ways to “go wide” that has ever been printed (outside of clearly bad cards for this deck in Mentor and Pyromancer). Against shops you often are able to just not cast a spell in order to flip this guy to his “werewolf” side and then the shops player might not be able to flip him back (because they are in top deck mode after running out their hand). A 0 mana investing on getting 3/3’s (another convenient size for beating Lodestone Golems) is an effect that doesn’t exist on another creature in the history of magic. This guy is also conveniently a human and thus castable off a Cavern of Souls naming “human.” Mayor is also sided in vs other fish/hate-bear decks as a way to go over the top of them.

Ghost Quarter - This card comes in vs. shops, dredge and greedy non-basic mana bases. It is hugely helpful at keeping waste locks up vs. shops and it is tutorable with Knight. Great role player in the SB.
Plains - This comes in vs. decks that abuse wasteland to try to color screw you. It helps you cast Pridemage vs. shops as well as stony silence vs. shops. There is a small argument to be made for basic Swamp over basic plains but I’ve found white to be more important overall.

Gaddock Teeg - This used to be the Mother of Runes slot. I’ve decided to move away from Mother for now as most blue decks are running mass removal to deal with your creatures these days. Gaddock Teeg deals with key cards that this deck has no other good answer to (Gush, Dig through Time, Gifts Ungiven, Jace, The Mind Sculptor, Treasure Cruise, Engineered Explosives, and Repeal to name a few). He’s the most recent add to the list but I’m predicting that he will earn his stripes and become a mainstay eventually.

Now, how to play the deck.
This deck runs out a lot like an old Smokestack shops list. You are going to be winning a fair number of games on a razor’s edge, but the deck can still just draw broken. Matches vs. big blue will often revolve around Thalia, Chalice & Stony Silence resolving while matches vs. Shops will often revolve around Wasteland, Knight, Deathrite Shaman, Pridemage, Confidant and Mayor out of the SB. Games vs. Delver will be largely about Thalia, Chalice, Knight and removal spells. Games vs. Dredge will be about direct hate and indirect hate like Thalia, Waste, Mayor and Chalice. Mirrorish matchups will often be about Knight, removal, and Mayor. I will not go into a play-by-play walkthrough in this article as this is just an introduction to the archetype but I’d like to simply point out that “baiting” with this deck is huge along with understanding “what’s important” in any given matchup. SB-ing plans are not hard so I’ll leave it to the folks who’d want to pick up this deck to decide on a boarding plan that suites their play style. That’s gonna have to be it for now. I hope this article helps folks understand the intricacies a really nifty deck that has some serious game. If you want to mix things up at your next weekend Vintage event, then I highly recommend sleeving this thing up and wrecking some dreams. I hope you’ll all read my follow up article that goes into game scenarios but until then. . . enjoy the hard stone of silence and the frigid cold of the ice queen guardian of Thraben.

-Storm
 
P.S. - Gameplay links to follow. Also, test the deck online and post your results here.

P.P.S - Hopefully I will soon publish an article on this deck for eternal central and in that article I will try to include some real match scenarios and opening hand sequencing. For the time being I don't have the time, but in the next couple weeks I hope to include that key piece of how the deck actually plays out. For now, test it and post comments here!! Smile
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 01:40:25 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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xouman
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 07:02:38 am »

Tremendous primer storm! The core of the deck does not surprise me since Guli and you have talked about this for years, but it is a deck that gets frequent updates from new expansions. I don't have most of the cards (starting from the manabase), but all cards are great by themselves (something really important and sometimes hard to achieve) and have good synergy. I just find one problem: mass removal.

Of course broken plays from the opponent can make you lose, but that happens to any deck, and this deck is better negating those broken plays than most decks.
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 11:44:32 am »

Super good read, very good primer.

I like this deck a lot and I'm inclined to try something like this should I ever break my passion for Oath of Druids.

I've run into this deck few times and from what I can remember I was able to "overpower" it, but it might be just me drawing the nuts, as from what I can tell this deck should clearly have decent match vs. Oath. I remember winning games due to my own Decays, Thoughtseizes and Toxic Deluge (basically the stuff that dodges Caverns, etc...). It would take some testing sessions to come up with any conclusion, so I'm not going to jump to any.

Overall, I think this deck is very well positioned in current meta and it really should have a game vs. almost everything.

Good job.
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 01:01:46 pm »

@xouman - I think you should find that if you play tight with the deck and don't overcommit you won't lose to cards like pyroclasm, toxic deluge, etc. Knight of the Reliquary is your friend in these circumstances. Also, those extra copies of Thalia are also your friend in these circumstances. You want to force your opponent into game states where, if they mass remove, they can't ALSO do something game winning on that turn. Then you simply waltz in with 2 lock pieces on your following turn and re-establish a soft lock. It's the same way shops decks attempt to deal with hurkyl's recall. You force your opponent to do it when they don't want to by applying enough pressure. Then you follow up with more lock pieces.

-Storm
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 02:51:09 pm »

Of course broken plays from the opponent can make you lose, but that happens to any deck, and this deck is better negating those broken plays than most decks.

Oh is it running Force of Will somewhere? I must have missed that in the list.
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 02:51:58 pm »

@Storm, could you explain to me the merits behind basic Plains?
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 03:36:27 pm »

@Storm, could you explain to me the merits behind basic Plains?

It is definitely a potential cut, but I currently use it for the resolution of pridemage vs. shops and abolisher vs. wasteland creature decks with lots of spot removal. I could easily see that slot being ghost quarter #2 though and I've definitely considered this.
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 06:09:32 pm »

Of course broken plays from the opponent can make you lose, but that happens to any deck, and this deck is better negating those broken plays than most decks.

Oh is it running Force of Will somewhere? I must have missed that in the list.

Keeping mana at bay, stony silence, gaddock, eidolon, karakas, chalice, decay... all seem reasonable ways to cut broken plays. About T1 wins, yeah, blue decks have advantage, but not always will they have the fow+blue card in hand.
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 06:48:05 pm »

Of course broken plays from the opponent can make you lose, but that happens to any deck, and this deck is better negating those broken plays than most decks.

Oh is it running Force of Will somewhere? I must have missed that in the list.

Keeping mana at bay, stony silence, gaddock, eidolon, karakas, chalice, decay... all seem reasonable ways to cut broken plays. About T1 wins, yeah, blue decks have advantage, but not always will they have the fow+blue card in hand.

And, most importantly, FoWing 1 threat isn't always a free pass to winning yourself. Force gives you the ability to answer 1 threat any time at the cost of card disadvantage. This can pose problems if your opponent is throwing out "must Force" spells turn after turn. That is one thing my deck attempts to do to powerful decks that run force. I either negate the forces by having uncounterable stuff or a jam so many threats at them that force of will ceases to be a viable mode of answer.

-Storm
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 08:09:17 pm »

Could you elaborate a little more on the basic Forest in the main? Would you consider switching it with the Plains in the side? A quick count shows 18 maindeck white cards to 13 green, and an even 5/5 in the board. Not to mention the WW on Abolisher, and the fact that Cradle is an additional green source. Is this mostly because of the need to stick a Deathrite?

If you were to switch the Plains and the Forest, is it safe to assume the Verdant Catacombs would become a Marsh Flats? Thanks.
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 08:46:24 pm »

Could you elaborate a little more on the basic Forest in the main? Would you consider switching it with the Plains in the side? A quick count shows 18 maindeck white cards to 13 green, and an even 5/5 in the board. Not to mention the WW on Abolisher, and the fact that Cradle is an additional green source. Is this mostly because of the need to stick a Deathrite?

If you were to switch the Plains and the Forest, is it safe to assume the Verdant Catacombs would become a Marsh Flats? Thanks.

Most of the match-ups where you need white mana the most are match-ups that don't pit you against wasteland whereas match-ups where you face wastelands will be ones where green is much more important.
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2015, 01:25:06 am »

Having tested against this deck a couple times with different lists, I think it's quite good.  It's funny how "but you could lose to Turn 1 Tinker" is considered a valid criticism, as though the Fish deck is puny and impotent vis-a-vis the almighty blue Goliath, when in reality the idea that I as a (mostly) blue mage have to both win the die roll and resolve Tinker on my first turn seems like an uncomfortably tall order.  I find Fish decks excruciating to play against because my counters seem to be always dead (I will Force their first Mox and this is very frequently the correct play, since I can't Force the Thalia who crawls out of the Cavern that follows and I need to throw out Moxen and cantrip towards Gush/Dig/Jace) and the answers/reset buttons most of us run for Shop-prison don't adequately respond to a combination of artifact (Chalice), enchantment (Stony Silence), and uncounterable Sphere creatures.  Notably, Dack Fayden is not exactly a powerhouse on my side as he is in nearly every other match-up.  And Gaddock Teeg turning off Gush, Dig Through Time, Jace, Force, Repeal, and Engineered Explosives is extremely debilitating.  I've had my Elesh Norn, Talrand, and Tasigurs hit by Karakas (or in Tasigur's case, just made downright unplayable by that land sitting there).  I've had my Show and Tell -> Robot responded to by a Knight of the Reliquary being Shown into play fetching up Maze of Ith.  I've outright lost to the Chalice 0 on the draw and essentially nothing else.  Sometimes I think the more amazing one's opening hand v. these Fish decks, the more likely it is to lose when on the draw.  Bland basic hands with 2-3 fetchlands, 1 Mox, a cantrip, and a business spell seem to get there more often than the super nuts. 

The list here is well-rounded, powerful, and very thought-out in terms of tuning to what's current in Vintage.  Congrats on the product and good luck. 

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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2015, 03:57:23 am »

It is a nice first chapter for the primer, very enjoyable to read through and to good to have documented as a reference. What I would like to read, and what I think is lacking, is the in game experience Noah has build up. Lines of play, board states, critical decisions he made that resulted in a win or loss, guidelines to certain match ups. You could use screenshots from the replays to make it visually attractive. I realize this is a lot of work though, and we can only hope for this kind of content.


Thanks for sharing Noah, glad you are around.
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2015, 06:02:46 pm »

This Primer is very well written and thought out.  I definately feel that the fish archetype is underplayed as a whole, as it is powerful and comes at vintage from a radically different angle, much like dredge, shops, and tps come at the opponent from vastly different angles.  In testing, a lot of what you've revealed holds merit, but I feel it'll start to catch once a few top 8's start turning heads.

I look forward to hearing about your results in future torunaments.  Good luck buddy.
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2015, 05:26:55 am »

Good primer and thanks for writing. This looks very much like the builds I posted when Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay were initially spoiled. The main difference is you run Chalice, I ran Grafdigger's. I'm still not so sure that cutting Grafdigger's is the way to go, but I like your inclusion of Chalice. Also, what's the "secret" part of the deck?
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2015, 08:47:02 am »

Good primer and thanks for writing. This looks very much like the builds I posted when Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay were initially spoiled. The main difference is you run Chalice, I ran Grafdigger's. I'm still not so sure that cutting Grafdigger's is the way to go, but I like your inclusion of Chalice. Also, what's the "secret" part of the deck?

I've found Grafdigger's Cage to be terrible in comparison to Containment Priest. Cage does literally nothing towards stopping board development and resource development. It's good vs. Dredge and Oath, but even there, it's such a known quantity that they will always have efficient answers to it where they will likely have less answers to Priest.

Also, I think there are some key differences with this list and the ones you were brewing back in the day. I don't recall you running Tabernacle in your tutor package with Knight. Also, did you run 3 Grand Abolisher. Abolisher has been key to many of my wins with the deck as it cuts off eot shenanigans from blue as well as Gush in response to Wasteland. Eidolon of Rhetoric has also been a house (don't recall if you ran that guy) vs. Gifts and Mentor lists. It can singlehandedly stop prowess from triggering more than once a turn and block the mentor itself all day long. He has been so huge I really would like to find room for #3 again but as of now I just can't seem to cut something in the main or sb to make room for him. I imagine that there are some key similarities between our lists, but I think there are also some major differences.

Btw, Chalice has been INSANELY IMPORTANT in testing. It is one of the deck's few ways to act on turn 1 despite only running 3 moxen and a lotus. Basically, vs. blue you often want a hand with turn 1 Thalia OR turn 1 Chalice @0 (even on the draw turn 1 Chalice @0 is a solid play vs. most big blue decks). Vs. Shops you kinda want turn 1 mox OR turn 1 Wasteland. This keeps you at a minimal amount of turn 1 plays (something the deck otherwise very much lacks and a potential weakness of such strategies).

-Storm
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2015, 09:36:50 am »

the power of this deck are it's consistently powerful openings. Few games will you be without Cavern or Thalia or Abolisher or Chalice or Stony Silence or a Wasteland effect. Only a quarter of your games vs blue will you be without Cavern and will your opponent have a Force of Will. Because of Confidant, you have the draw engine Shops lacks. Because of the flat mana curve, all spells are playable by turn 2 or 3, meaning you can play your pieces in pretty much whatever order happens to be situationally ideal. Terra Nova has a significantly more linear line of development. The parts here are fairly interchangeable because your Lodestone Golem costs 2 and can be played through countermagic with Cavern or Abolisher.

I do think this deck benefits significantly from its small place in the metagame. Dredge would have an extremely high win rate if it was played as infrequently as this. Vintage certainly has fine answers for decks like these, but their low share of the metagame means answers to them do not show up much in sideboards. If the deck is temporarily or anecdotally successful, I would expect its performance to shrink back a bit if that success leads to a larger metagame share. Meanwhile, everyone has sideboard plans for Shops and Delver, yet they still perform consistently well.
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2015, 05:10:48 pm »

the power of this deck are it's consistently powerful openings. Few games will you be without Cavern or Thalia or Abolisher or Chalice or Stony Silence or a Wasteland effect. Only a quarter of your games vs blue will you be without Cavern and will your opponent have a Force of Will. Because of Confidant, you have the draw engine Shops lacks. Because of the flat mana curve, all spells are playable by turn 2 or 3, meaning you can play your pieces in pretty much whatever order happens to be situationally ideal. Terra Nova has a significantly more linear line of development. The parts here are fairly interchangeable because your Lodestone Golem costs 2 and can be played through countermagic with Cavern or Abolisher.

I do think this deck benefits significantly from its small place in the metagame. Dredge would have an extremely high win rate if it was played as infrequently as this. Vintage certainly has fine answers for decks like these, but their low share of the metagame means answers to them do not show up much in sideboards. If the deck is temporarily or anecdotally successful, I would expect its performance to shrink back a bit if that success leads to a larger metagame share. Meanwhile, everyone has sideboard plans for Shops and Delver, yet they still perform consistently well.

Great point made here about the consistency of the draws. That is one of the major "draws" to playing the deck IMO Smile. As to your second point about the deck being fringe and thus not hated out I agree. . . to a point. I think this deck would perform decently well THROUGH hate just like Delver and Shops do. I know this cause I test vs. Brian Kelly on Cockatrice and he frequently runs narrow answers like Inferno Titan, Elesh Norn and sometimes as many as 3 fire/ice to beat me and I still have game vs. him. And he's running the GOOD hate. I think this deck attacks from more than just the creature angle so it has more resilience to hate that targets just creatures. The fact that it runs 3 stony, 3 chalice, 4 decay and tabernacle/maze/karakas means we have many ways of attacking our opponent outside of just dudes. And Knight of the Reliquary has this filthy habit of being immune to Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, Pyroclasm and Toxic Deluge (not immune to Deluge persee, but he can make them spend more life than they have to spend, effectively making him immune to the Deluge). Also worth noting that Eidolon is immune to Bolts and Gaddock Teeg protects himself from Repeal. Little perks like this add up to make the deck more resilient to hate.

-Storm
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2015, 11:40:34 pm »

Just thought I'd let the followers of this thread know that I won a 14 man Vintage event with this list today. 14 players was a bit disappointing, but they were all really solid players and I still feel it was a pretty nice accomplishment. I beat Bomberman, Martello, Bulltetproof Monk, Dredge in the swiss and then beat the Monk deck again in top 4 as well as a grixis control list in the finals. I will have a tournament report up soon, but, for now I'm just exhausted. But yeah, YAY Stone-Cold Humans! Smile Deck is for real.

-Storm
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2015, 11:55:20 pm »

Storm,

I like this list a lot. It's very similar to some ideas I was brewing around with but far more refined. Thanks for sharing!

Have you considered Anafenza the Foremost? I think that she is one of the newly printed hatebears that is worth considering. Obviously the mana cost is hard as it costs WBG, but the effect of exiling the creatures as they hit your opponent's graveyard seems great for dredge match up and helps out vs delve on occasion. It also stacks well vs some of the Eldrazi and tinker target shuffle effects - if it isn't a replacement effect and is a trigger and it's happening on their turn (which is likely), then it gets exiled before it gets shuffled back in.

Thanks for sharing, I'm excited to see Grand Abolisher get some play.
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2015, 02:37:46 am »

A couple of days ago I thought that if got someday to play cockatrice, I'd had to abandon bomberman (what I play in real life). Facing chalices, thalias, eidolon and stony silence makes the combo nearly impossible.

I'm pretty interested in the matches against monk. Btw, congratulations on your performance!
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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2015, 12:19:32 pm »

Congrats on the win.  This is one of the few creature matches where Inferno Titan is stronger than Elesh Norn (due primarily to Knight of the Reliquary who both tends to survive her state-based edict of justice and fetch up Karakas to send her home).  It also bears noting that re: Mentor, Grand Abolisher + Eidolon doesn't just limit Prowess/Monk triggers to one per turn but one per turn cycle.  This deck forces extremely uncomfortable judgment calls like whether to Gush in resp. to Grand Abolisher on the stack while Thalia is in play.  Aside from fast Inferno Titan (which sure as hell is a real possibility in this amazing format Vintage), the safest route to victory for me has been Turn 1-2 Jace.  
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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2015, 12:48:02 pm »

Congrats on the win.  This is one of the few creature matches where Inferno Titan is stronger than Elesh Norn (due primarily to Knight of the Reliquary who both tends to survive her state-based edict of justice and fetch up Karakas to send her home).  It also bears noting that re: Mentor, Grand Abolisher + Eidolon doesn't just limit Prowess/Monk triggers to one per turn but one per turn cycle.  This deck forces extremely uncomfortable judgment calls like whether to Gush in resp. to Grand Abolisher on the stack while Thalia is in play.  Aside from fast Inferno Titan (which sure as hell is a real possibility in this amazing format Vintage), the safest route to victory for me has been Turn 1-2 Jace.  

Agreed. Jace on turn 1-2 is beatable but requires some bricking from the Jace Player pretty hard and a steady stream of threats from the humans player. And yeah, Inferno Titan sucks for this deck. Brian has let the fire-breathing cat out of the bag. Shhhhhhh!

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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2015, 09:19:34 am »

Thanks for the primer and a very polished list Storm.

I have been tinkering with knights and deathrites since deathrite was printed and have never really understood why you and Guli have been including nobels and less than 4 shamans. A few questions:

Could you explain the decision of running only 3 knights? It seems she is the only real fat in the deck and brings utility in every match-up. I guess the actual question might be: Which would be your cards number 61 to 63 in the main and which are the first 1-3 candidates for cutting?

I have been running bojuka bog in the main or side, depending on how likely it has seemed to face dredge. Bog doesn´t match very well with containment priest (or cage, before that) and I´m getting more and more convinced by Tabernacle, after having doubted its effectiveness initially. The problem is the price tag. I don´t think I will ever afford to buy it. Do you have an advice on maindeck dredge hate if Tabernacle is not an option?

It seems containment priest has utility in enough match-ups that it may warrant a maindeck slot. Especially, since opponents will often not be prepared to see her game one, before she flashes in. Could you give us a few words on why they are all in the side?

I´m a bit skeptical to the spread of creature types among your hate-bears and would try to reduce it by one type. I think that would be cat/wizard in most circumstances, and possibly go to 4 abrupt decay. Eidolon (spirit) seems really sweet, especially as a unique answer to mentor. Do you think spirit of the labyrinth is worth considering main or side?

I´ve been testing mayor and find him win-more. Since you propose to side him in versus shops (important) and mirror matches (less important), how about other alternatives with broader application? I would lead towards Kataki (another spirit), which should be effective with 5 strips in the main and ghost quarter(s) in the side.
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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2015, 05:26:47 pm »

Thanks for the primer and a very polished list Storm.

I have been tinkering with knights and deathrites since deathrite was printed and have never really understood why you and Guli have been including nobels and less than 4 shamans. A few questions:

Could you explain the decision of running only 3 knights? It seems she is the only real fat in the deck and brings utility in every match-up. I guess the actual question might be: Which would be your cards number 61 to 63 in the main and which are the first 1-3 candidates for cutting?

I have been running bojuka bog in the main or side, depending on how likely it has seemed to face dredge. Bog doesn´t match very well with containment priest (or cage, before that) and I´m getting more and more convinced by Tabernacle, after having doubted its effectiveness initially. The problem is the price tag. I don´t think I will ever afford to buy it. Do you have an advice on maindeck dredge hate if Tabernacle is not an option?

It seems containment priest has utility in enough match-ups that it may warrant a maindeck slot. Especially, since opponents will often not be prepared to see her game one, before she flashes in. Could you give us a few words on why they are all in the side?

I´m a bit skeptical to the spread of creature types among your hate-bears and would try to reduce it by one type. I think that would be cat/wizard in most circumstances, and possibly go to 4 abrupt decay. Eidolon (spirit) seems really sweet, especially as a unique answer to mentor. Do you think spirit of the labyrinth is worth considering main or side?

I´ve been testing mayor and find him win-more. Since you propose to side him in versus shops (important) and mirror matches (less important), how about other alternatives with broader application? I would lead towards Kataki (another spirit), which should be effective with 5 strips in the main and ghost quarter(s) in the side.


1.There is definitely an argument to be made for 4 Knights. I have found that not being an immediate lock piece is an issue though when making mulligan decisions. Think like the card Smokestack in the context of Shops or maybe better might be a card like Coercive Portal. Great cards, but if you open on 2x in your opening hand it might pose problems for surviving until the mid game. This deck doesn't run ultra powerful insta-wins so you need a critical mass of hate and consistency with land drops to get that hate online. I'm worried that +1 Knight -1 something else would open me up to more hard mulligan decisions and that is something this deck just cannot afford. We don't function as well on 6 cards and 5 card hands rarely get there. Much less so than in combo decks where 5 card hands can get there in the right match ups.

2. I have tested Bog MD and SB and it just is not a good replacement for Tabernacle. Bog is OK vs. dredge, but even there I find I want Tabernacle more often later in the game. Once your opponent has swarmed the field with 2/2's your only option is often to get rid of them. Bog does nothing to help with this. Tabernacle is a get-out-of-jail free card that is also somewhat preventative. It is also obvious that Tabernacle is far better than Bog vs. Mentor and Pyromancer decks as well as Merfolk and other creature-heavy decks. Bog has never been worth boarding in vs. blue DESPITE messing with Delve because they just build up again or delve-spell you in response. There is just no comparison. If you aren't running 1x Tabernacle then you aren't running the deck. Aren't most Vintage events 5-10 proxies? What is the issue with proxying 1x Tabernacle? And if you are dying to play this deck at Vintage Champs just loan a Tabernacle from a friend. That's what I'll likely do.

3. Containment Priest being in the side is a very conscious choice on my part. It is based on 2 factors:

#1 - My metagame (not a ton of dredge to be seen)
#2 - The fact that my maindeck deals so well with Oath already that I'm gonna steal many game 1s on the power of: 3 Qasali Pridemage, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Stony Silence, 3 Knight (finds Karakas and Maze)

If a card isn't pulling it's weight across many match ups but is as powerful as Priest is then it belongs in the SB. Plain and simple.

4. I too was skeptical about the large number of creature types. All I can say is it hasn't been an issue particularly. Here are a couple of the reasons.

#1 - vs. Shop I'm not facing FoW so Pridemage is probably resolving more often than not in the matchup I need him most.
#2 - If I had a nickel for every time I've forced a blue player to tap out under a Thalia only to have me resolve my stony/eidolon or pridemage on the following turn I'd be a rich man.
#3 - Grand Abolisher helps smooth things out a lot vs. FoW and allows you to play out your non cavern-able threats. I had to admit a while back that certain hate cards are just THAT good and to hell if they aren't humans. Stony Silence, Chalice of the Void, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Qasali Pridemage are such cards. Will a card occasionally meet a FoW? Sure. Will it lose you matches that often? If you are playing the deck properly and sequencing/baiting intelligently then probably not.

My issue with Spirit of the Labyrinth is that it doesn't do anything vs. Dig Through Time. It also has a 1 butt and more fire/ice have been cropping up all over the place. I used to run Spirit as a 3-of main in an earlier version of this deck, but I just found that Eidolon did way more for me. Eidolon can shut off mentor decks where Spirit just doesn't and Mentor decks can be one of our worst match ups without some serious help. Eidolon IS that serious help we need.

5. I have cut Mayor from the 75 before. I live to regret it. Shops/"fair" decks are where mayors just shine. Mayor is the extra "beef" you claim we need when the matchup calls for it. Against shops it is on Golem duty, but also just closes games before they topdeck a bomb. I've found Kataki to be lacking vs. shops even with waste effects. All they need is an Ancient Tomb/Academy or multiple Factories and they able to keep multiple beaters up and running. There's also the issue that Kataki is Legendary so running more than 1 is iffy. Unlike Thalia who eats it to removal all day long, your Kataki will stay on board vs. shops more than likely so you don't want to draw multiples. This means you probably want to run 1 and then you have the issue of drawing it early. I've also just noticed that, by the time you land him, they often have shop + tomb online. This means that he's already been partially negated before he even hits play. He's also just a terrible late-game draw when your opponent has like 5 lands out where mayor is not. mayor creates sick late game alpha strikes with his lord ability and also can pump out dudes on a stalled board state. Mayor is a card you need to play correctly, but it rewards tight play.

-Storm
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2015, 06:51:08 pm »


1.There is definitely an argument to be made for 4 Knights. I have found that not being an immediate lock piece is an issue though when making mulligan decisions. Think like the card Smokestack in the context of Shops or maybe better might be a card like Coercive Portal. Great cards, but if you open on 2x in your opening hand it might pose problems for surviving until the mid game. This deck doesn't run ultra powerful insta-wins so you need a critical mass of hate and consistency with land drops to get that hate online. I'm worried that +1 Knight -1 something else would open me up to more hard mulligan decisions and that is something this deck just cannot afford. We don't function as well on 6 cards and 5 card hands rarely get there. Much less so than in combo decks where 5 card hands can get there in the right match ups.

2. I have tested Bog MD and SB and it just is not a good replacement for Tabernacle. Bog is OK vs. dredge, but even there I find I want Tabernacle more often later in the game. Once your opponent has swarmed the field with 2/2's your only option is often to get rid of them. Bog does nothing to help with this. Tabernacle is a get-out-of-jail free card that is also somewhat preventative. It is also obvious that Tabernacle is far better than Bog vs. Mentor and Pyromancer decks as well as Merfolk and other creature-heavy decks. Bog has never been worth boarding in vs. blue DESPITE messing with Delve because they just build up again or delve-spell you in response. There is just no comparison. If you aren't running 1x Tabernacle then you aren't running the deck. Aren't most Vintage events 5-10 proxies? What is the issue with proxying 1x Tabernacle? And if you are dying to play this deck at Vintage Champs just loan a Tabernacle from a friend. That's what I'll likely do...

Thanks for the clarifications. I was sold on Eidolon from your primer. Not so much grand abolisher, but I´m sure that changes after having tested it. Though I have tested mayor some, I guess I need more time with him before he starts shining. In my mind, he would play out very well, but he hasn´t in practice yet.

I see spirit of the labyrinth as an alternative to teeg. They stop many of the same cards and force of will is largely turned off by this deck anyway. Teeg also has a manacost as complicated as pridemage in a cavern deck. Dig through time is one of the cards that give teeg an edge though.

When it comes to Tabernacle, I get that it´s essential. I play in a small playgroup and we don´t allow proxies, but I think there might be a Tabernacle that someone could lend me. I also don´t own power and would use 4 spirit guides instead of the jewelery (and still run chalice and stony for my friends, who do run power).
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2015, 11:39:14 pm »

Hi Storm!  Thanks for the the outstanding Primer and sharing the results of your extensive time spent testing, i absolutely appreciate your contribution to the community!  However, i would be remiss if i did not express my wallets ABSOLUTE DISGUST at at your efforts toward making Tabernacle so dang playable and even critical to this otherwise affordable and universally attractive strategy.  sigh.  Keep up the good work, sir, and please accept my most enthusiastic encouragement toward continuing to give those pesky blue and brown mages fits... Very Happy
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2015, 10:30:24 am »

I am soon to play one of my first vintage tourneys at the end of the month... and love what this deck is doing. looking to get very close to sleeing up this 75. fantastic work on this!
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2015, 02:45:06 am »

I am soon to play one of my first vintage tourneys at the end of the month... and love what this deck is doing. looking to get very close to sleeing up this 75. fantastic work on this!

Glad you're enjoying the deck. It doesn't forgive play mistakes too much, but it is very potent against most of the major Vintage strategies. Cards that give it trouble tend to be pretty fringe so I don't worry too much about them (Inferno Titan, Consecrated Sphinx, etc.).

Watch out for BUG Fish and BUGstill though. If there is an achilles heel for this deck it is the combined forces of 4 abrupt Decay AND 5 waste/strip effects. That is a hard mess to fight through I've found in testing. Good Luck!

-Storm
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2015, 02:27:23 pm »

So i have this 75 sleeved up, and 90% foil! for this weekend. Going to try to write my first tournament report on this as well. Looking forward to it!
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