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Author Topic: Vintage Super League: Who Would You Like to See?  (Read 25145 times)
Chubby Rain
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« Reply #180 on: March 16, 2016, 01:18:29 pm »

Depends on the list, if it's red the mentor match up is really bad but white has moat, supreme verdict, swords, as very good options to attack mentor.

Those options are hardly very good. Swords still leaves the tokens, provided it resolves against the deck's counters, and the tokens are generally large enough to bash through Factories. Supreme Verdict is a poor card in most matchups, inefficient in that it costs more than the cards it's answering, and honestly hard to cast at times given the triple colored cost in a deck with 9-10 colorless lands. The Gush-cantrip draw engine is also adept at churning through it's deck, so the Mentor player is likely to have additional copies after the Verdict. And I have never seen a Landstill deck run Moat and TCDecks turns up zero results for Standstill+Moat. In theory, I guess it could catch the Mentor pilot by surprise, but it also shuts down Landstill's primary win condition.

I've played this matchup a lot from the Mentor side and I feel it's one of Mentors better matchups.
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oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #181 on: March 16, 2016, 02:39:02 pm »

I'll chime in here. The mentor vs landstill match is a coin flip often having mentor in the advantage. If landstill over prepares to beat mentor, it won't be well rounded vs the rest of the feild...and people wonder why I've set landstill down for the time being...
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« Reply #182 on: March 16, 2016, 05:19:27 pm »

Depends on the list, if it's red the mentor match up is really bad but white has moat, supreme verdict, swords, as very good options to attack mentor.

Those options are hardly very good. Swords still leaves the tokens, provided it resolves against the deck's counters, and the tokens are generally large enough to bash through Factories. Supreme Verdict is a poor card in most matchups, inefficient in that it costs more than the cards it's answering, and honestly hard to cast at times given the triple colored cost in a deck with 9-10 colorless lands. The Gush-cantrip draw engine is also adept at churning through it's deck, so the Mentor player is likely to have additional copies after the Verdict. And I have never seen a Landstill deck run Moat and TCDecks turns up zero results for Standstill+Moat. In theory, I guess it could catch the Mentor pilot by surprise, but it also shuts down Landstill's primary win condition.

I've played this matchup a lot from the Mentor side and I feel it's one of Mentors better matchups.
I don't understand your logic in saying that the card is  inefficient against mentor because it "costs more than the cards it's answering." if you are using supreme verdict to deal with 1 mentor then it's using it inefficiently but when it's mentor and tokens given that each token adds to the cost of the mentor it is an uncounterable board wipe that happens to be pretty good. Also the gush engine is only good if the gush resolves, standstill decks play considerably more counter magic than mentor so yes if the gush draw engine is uninterrupted then mentor is advantaged but that can be said of any deck that goes uninteracted with. Standstill doesn't have to win with factories, Jace is also a viable win con in the deck. Moat is a beater in most match ups right now. Shops, dredge, mentor, Tinker blightsteel, all cannot beat a moat.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 05:48:04 pm by UndeadBus » Logged

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« Reply #183 on: March 16, 2016, 06:18:03 pm »

Countering Gush is often the death knell of dedicated control vs. Gro.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #184 on: March 16, 2016, 06:52:34 pm »

I don't understand your logic in saying that the card is  inefficient against mentor because it "costs more than the cards it's answering." if you are using supreme verdict to deal with 1 mentor then it's using it inefficiently but when it's mentor and tokens given that each token adds to the cost of the mentor it is an uncounterable board wipe that happens to be pretty good. Also the gush engine is only good if the gush resolves, standstill decks play considerably more counter magic than mentor so yes if the gush draw engine is uninterrupted then mentor is advantaged but that can be said of any deck that goes uninteracted with. Standstill doesn't have to win with factories, Jace is also a viable win con in the deck. Moat is a beater in most match ups right now. Shops, dredge, mentor, Tinker blightsteel, all cannot beat a moat.

Four mana, three of it colored, is a lot more than  {2} {W}, especially when Mentor can kill you in that one turn window before you can Verdict. The tokens are generated as a byproduct of casting other spells and so there isn't really a tempo disadvantage - the Mentor pilot is still drawing cards, filtering, Delving and progressing their game plan. A Verdict that wipes the Monks doesn't undo this and it's easy and frequent to follow up with another Mentor that can't be answered. That's assuming the Landstill player is able to find one of their two or three Verdicts given the short clock a resolved Mentor represents. Fighting Gush and the other draw spells is not easy to do - Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm normally don't work which mean you are relying on Mana Drains and Force of Wills. The cantrips and manabase keep the gas coming and you are generally better spent saving your counterspells for the Mentor itself, Cruise/Dig, and Dack/Jace.

I beat Landstill three times in splitting a Black Lotus/Ancestral Recall with Brian Kelly at EE3. I've played against the VSL UW version three times recently in online dailies. In these 6 matches, I think I lost 1 game. My overall impression of the match up is that it is highly favorable for a competent Mentor pilot...perhaps 75-25 or higher, not even close to a coin flip (respectfully disagree with you here Josh).

Moat is an interesting idea but it is certainly has not been a part of recent lists. I normally keep 1-2 Wear/Tears in the deck as they kill Factories and Crucibles while being instants to pop a Standstill at EoT. Against the Moat control decks that occasionally pop up, my strategy is generally to commit one Mentor to the board and then use card filtering and Probe to force an EoT Tear through. That or ultimating a JVP has won me a couple of games here and there.

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"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

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oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #185 on: March 16, 2016, 07:55:35 pm »

I think you misunderstood me, Matt. The mentor matchup is abysmal unless you over dedicate to beat mentor. But even when I dedicate to beat mentor it's still a coin flip almost. And then I am weak to othere things. Mentor pushed me away from landstill for a while to be honest. I understand the matchup intimately and it's not very good lol. So I agree withat mentor being in the advantage...now if a few metagame decks went away and landstill could focus more on just beating mentor, then it can probably happen. But right now the metagame spreads landstill too thin IMO
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« Reply #186 on: March 16, 2016, 11:19:38 pm »

Agree with Josh, that's why I got off UW Landstill as well. It has a great game vs Shops and is one of the better blue decks vs. Combo, but if you want to beat Gush decks with any regularity you have to run junk like maindeck Verdict and/or Moat, 4 StP, Balance, etc. And then you can sorta beat Gush decks sometimes, but you just get crushed by the rest of the field. Problem is that there is just no good way to counter Gush, which Landstill uniquely needs to do but also simultaneously don't want to do. They just get so far ahead of you and the clunky nature of Landstill's mana draws matches up pretty poorly against the agility of Gush+cantrips+delve.

That said, it's a pretty solid choice if you expect to play Combo and Shops, aka VSL metagame. I don't expect Landstill to be a dominant deck nor will it be the default blue choice in the paper metagame.
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YakuzaXRock
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« Reply #187 on: November 03, 2016, 09:27:28 am »

Why dont we have a playin tournament for the playins at vsl,  here at themanadrain? Winner get to playin at vsl.

Use mtgo or even better cockatrice.
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