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Author Topic: Eternal staples shortlist, does it exist?  (Read 5564 times)
yugular
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« on: May 27, 2015, 02:26:15 am »

I know Menendian used to upkeep a shortlist for Vintage staples, but is there somewhere a somewhat up-to-date shortlist for eternal staples? I am planning to clean sweep my mtgo collection (12-15K cards) and would like to leave in all cards that are staples or playable in Vintage and Legacy. But I am relatively new to the formats and I might be missing some cards as I don't have a ton of playing experience. A shortlist of staples would make my springcleaning much easier...
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 08:51:00 am »

I'd go through the cards that he lists out in his podcasts from the past two years.  Anything that cross-references with more than a couple top 8's is probably something you want a set of.  Otherwise, the lists that were published previously (via starcity, i believe) are your best bet.  I can't speak on legacy, but the card pool for vintage still hasn't changed much from five years ago.  Remember, we usually only gain a couple cards from a new set, so there's not much work to be done in compiling a new list.
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2015, 08:59:10 am »

To my knowledge Steve was the only person to take on this undertaking. He's updated it here or there and crammed it in with some of his paid content. It probably wouldn't be difficult to update one of his older free lists by just making obvious cuts and adding the staples that have been printed since.
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 09:05:04 am »

Also, @yugular, perhaps your efforts could be put toward a TMD vintage staple list that the community can help upkeep.
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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 09:13:06 am »

This list is going to potentially vary between long and extremely long depending on your interpretation of "playable in Vintage".

Personally, I have all of the cards that I think I will likely play in Vintage, but what about cards that are fringe playable or potentially become playable if something becomes un/restricted? I am interested to see what is put together and what makes the cut/is left off the list as there are a lot of cards that I could easily see being on or off the list depending on who you ask.
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yugular
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 02:21:54 pm »

Also, @yugular, perhaps your efforts could be put toward a TMD vintage staple list that the community can help upkeep.

Sure. I will look into this during weekend and post more here.

This list is going to potentially vary between long and extremely long depending on your interpretation of "playable in Vintage".

Personally, I have all of the cards that I think I will likely play in Vintage, but what about cards that are fringe playable or potentially become playable if something becomes un/restricted? I am interested to see what is put together and what makes the cut/is left off the list as there are a lot of cards that I could easily see being on or off the list depending on who you ask.

Yeah, likely it should be divided into 2-3 categories.
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yugular
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2015, 02:07:01 am »

I have found some resources already to back me up in this task.

http://www.metamox.com/legacy/
A list of most popular cards in competitive events in the last 90 days. I don't know where they pull the data, but seems legit and useful.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/vintage
If I understand correctly the site tracks mtgo tournaments. Useful starting point.

And I guess I must spends some time at http://www.morphling.de/

If you have any other resources to help me. Please post links here. Thanks!
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ChronoExile
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2015, 07:30:38 am »

Here are two links from the SCG archives.

This one is the review from the M10 set release and has the cards listed two different ways one by set, and the other by color.  The Complete Vintage Checklist

This one is the review from the M11 set release and includes Zen, Worldwake, and Rise (which were not included in the above link).  This lists out the M11 cards and the full list is sorted by type.  M11 is Amazing in Vintage

It appears his last article for SCG was right before the launch of Scars, so to find information from those sets forward I would agree with Bill and listen to the podcasts, and use the resources you already listed to find the frequency of cards played in top results
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yugular
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 08:24:39 am »

Thanks for the help so far!

Quote
Personally, I have all of the cards that I think I will likely play in Vintage, but what about cards that are fringe playable or potentially become playable if something becomes un/restricted? I am interested to see what is put together and what makes the cut/is left off the list as there are a lot of cards that I could easily see being on or off the list depending on who you ask.

I started to write down cards from the recent sets and this is hard. What card is actually considered stable in a format? For example Reanimate in Legacy. Format stable or just a playable/possible playable card? It sees play in one deck? Iona, Shield of Emeria also sees play in that deck btw. Well how about Ugin, the Spirit Dragon then? It also sees play in one, although less popular deck. What about Tormod's Crypt that can be found from many different sideboards?

http://www.metamox.com/legacy/ results for those cards:
Reanimate 21
Iona 9
Ugin 11
Tormod's Crypt 14

For me personally this isn't really bothering, but interesting. I am still going to divide cards into staples and other playables. Other people can comment on those more when I show the "results".
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yugular
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 07:11:36 am »

Hi folks! I have started my process of going through my collection and I figured I would do some kind of a shortlist while im doing it. Thanks for all the links in here, facebook and twitter. Those have been useful! Here is a link to a pic that shows how the spreadsheet is going to look like. So basically I will go through each set and list all the cards that have potential for eternal play. I will assign them between 0-2 (+)-marks depending on if they are: ++ very playable; + playable/potentially playable and no + for cards that doesn't seem likely to see play in the format. I will assign +'s for each card in two categories: Vintage and Legacy.

Is anyone interested in commenting my + markers and maybe figuring out if I missed a card? When I have more data I could upload the spreadsheet for few people to go through and comment. I am also open to suggestions on the this whole idea in general.
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Loukayza
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2015, 11:00:51 am »

I used the MTG Top 8 as a reference to make my own checklist. Similar to what Morphling.de did in the past but I just tailored it to things i'd "want to play" as opposed to an overall list of staples.

Here's a link:

http://mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=VI&meta=71

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rikter
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 11:45:20 am »

I used the MTG Top 8 as a reference to make my own checklist. Similar to what Morphling.de did in the past but I just tailored it to things i'd "want to play" as opposed to an overall list of staples.

Here's a link:

http://mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=VI&meta=71



If someone was technically inclined they could code a data scraper (a program that will dredge the data from a particular site), and use that to extract all the Vintage deck lists from mtgtop8.com into a spreadsheet and go from there. A buddy of mine did this to extract all the pricing data from a particular online vendor to create a master database for a Price Guide App he is working on.

Outside of that, I think it's harder to make a complete list like that for Vintage because there is just a lot more stuff you can do when you have access to Power and all the other busted stuff on the restricted list. As an example, I don't know that you would consider Splinter Twin a Vintage staple/playable, but I can tell you that a Vintage Twin list just cashed NYSE on Saturday.

Your task is a lot easier though if you combine automation with your own play preferences. This type of approach is similar to what I did. I'm a "I know what I like to play" kind of guy, and so my list is a lot shorter.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2015, 12:50:25 pm »

I used the MTG Top 8 as a reference to make my own checklist. Similar to what Morphling.de did in the past but I just tailored it to things i'd "want to play" as opposed to an overall list of staples.

Here's a link:

http://mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=VI&meta=71



If someone was technically inclined they could code a data scraper (a program that will dredge the data from a particular site), and use that to extract all the Vintage deck lists from mtgtop8.com into a spreadsheet and go from there. A buddy of mine did this to extract all the pricing data from a particular online vendor to create a master database for a Price Guide App he is working on.

Outside of that, I think it's harder to make a complete list like that for Vintage because there is just a lot more stuff you can do when you have access to Power and all the other busted stuff on the restricted list. As an example, I don't know that you would consider Splinter Twin a Vintage staple/playable, but I can tell you that a Vintage Twin list just cashed NYSE on Saturday.

Your task is a lot easier though if you combine automation with your own play preferences. This type of approach is similar to what I did. I'm a "I know what I like to play" kind of guy, and so my list is a lot shorter.

I'm intrigued by this data scrapper program.  Id love to run some analyses on top 8 data, but frankly pulling it is a pain the you know where.  Of course there is the additional problem that not all of the vintage top 8s are in the same location...
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rikter
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2015, 01:12:36 pm »

I used the MTG Top 8 as a reference to make my own checklist. Similar to what Morphling.de did in the past but I just tailored it to things i'd "want to play" as opposed to an overall list of staples.

Here's a link:

http://mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=VI&meta=71



If someone was technically inclined they could code a data scraper (a program that will dredge the data from a particular site), and use that to extract all the Vintage deck lists from mtgtop8.com into a spreadsheet and go from there. A buddy of mine did this to extract all the pricing data from a particular online vendor to create a master database for a Price Guide App he is working on.

Outside of that, I think it's harder to make a complete list like that for Vintage because there is just a lot more stuff you can do when you have access to Power and all the other busted stuff on the restricted list. As an example, I don't know that you would consider Splinter Twin a Vintage staple/playable, but I can tell you that a Vintage Twin list just cashed NYSE on Saturday.

Your task is a lot easier though if you combine automation with your own play preferences. This type of approach is similar to what I did. I'm a "I know what I like to play" kind of guy, and so my list is a lot shorter.

I'm intrigued by this data scrapper program.  Id love to run some analyses on top 8 data, but frankly pulling it is a pain the you know where.  Of course there is the additional problem that not all of the vintage top 8s are in the same location...

What do you mean by not all the top 8's are in the same location?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2015, 01:22:44 pm »

I used the MTG Top 8 as a reference to make my own checklist. Similar to what Morphling.de did in the past but I just tailored it to things i'd "want to play" as opposed to an overall list of staples.

Here's a link:

http://mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=VI&meta=71



If someone was technically inclined they could code a data scraper (a program that will dredge the data from a particular site), and use that to extract all the Vintage deck lists from mtgtop8.com into a spreadsheet and go from there. A buddy of mine did this to extract all the pricing data from a particular online vendor to create a master database for a Price Guide App he is working on.

Outside of that, I think it's harder to make a complete list like that for Vintage because there is just a lot more stuff you can do when you have access to Power and all the other busted stuff on the restricted list. As an example, I don't know that you would consider Splinter Twin a Vintage staple/playable, but I can tell you that a Vintage Twin list just cashed NYSE on Saturday.

Your task is a lot easier though if you combine automation with your own play preferences. This type of approach is similar to what I did. I'm a "I know what I like to play" kind of guy, and so my list is a lot shorter.

I'm intrigued by this data scrapper program.  Id love to run some analyses on top 8 data, but frankly pulling it is a pain the you know where.  Of course there is the additional problem that not all of the vintage top 8s are in the same location...

What do you mean by not all the top 8's are in the same location?

Ummm that not all top 8s are on the same website.  Mtg top 8 is not comprehensive
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Loukayza
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2015, 01:34:52 pm »

On further thought, another reason that MTGTop8 might be a bad data source, is there is no way to easily filter on proxy enviro vs. regular, and online vs paper, and US vs Other metas.  In addition, there could be misleading data issues with cards being used due to lack of power, or online price. Personal example: I use Ghost Quarters on MODO because I find it hard to pay $75 for "pretend" wastelands. I didn't mind paying the $110 for a Black Lotus, but I'll only go so far... Smile

I think all you can really do is create the list based on winning decks that you'd like to play, as already suggested by a few.
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rikter
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2015, 01:48:32 pm »

I would guess that while mtgtop8 is not a perfect data source, that it has enough to make a really solid spreadsheet. I don't think proxy vs sanctioned should be a huge issue; I think the bigger difference would be MODO vs Paper, if only because of the differences in availability. Best example I can think of is a $3 Misdirection being 100 tickets on MODO because of the availability differences.

The thing is, even with the imperfect source, if you are just trying to get an idea of what's being played then mtgtop8 should be fine. It hits the biggest events and ultimately I think its best to see what's winning in the bigger ones. You can get away with stuff in a smaller field with less rounds. It's tough to go 8 rounds against a solid field with a weak deck.

Ultimately though I think the easiest thing to do is figure out the decks you find interesting and use that to filter, it makes things much more manageable. Also, unless something is really rare or expensive or reserve listed, I err on the side of liquidating it. Non RL stuff is going to get reprinted, period, and so I value the present dollars more than the possibility of having to replace some low end stuff at some arbitrary point in the future.
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