Foil Goyf from GP Vegas

[Wagner]

So an acquaintance of mine and competitive GP player decided to rare-pick a Foil Tarmogoyf at the Vegas Grand Prix over a card for his deck. This upset some players and there has been a lot of talk about it in the last week, you can easily Google it with Foil Goyf Pascal Maynard Vegas.

The Foil Goyf with the GP stamp is now on Ebay and it seems it will be fetching an absurd amount of money, half of which goes to the Gamers Helping Gamers charity.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Foil-Tarmogoyf-MM2-Stamped-GP-Vegas-Top-8-Pascal-Maynard-/261911963536

[The Atog Lord]

Jealousy is an ugly thing.

[Space_Stormy]

I cannot believe how much negative feedback he got for that pick.  I wonder if there would have been any discussion at all if he wasn't on camera and we found out about the pick later.  I would have taken the Goyf and so many other people would have.  I like how he is turning the whole thing into a positive with the donation promise so I hope all this ends here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhOVfR0gslA <- Link for all who wanna see the moment as it happened

[JarofFortune]

I understand that many people would have taken the Burst Lightning, but I'm completely shocked at the wording some of the pros have used to describe his pick. What if he needs the money to go to more tournaments, for example? Not everyone gets paid airfare and hotel accommodations as they do. Saying that this pick makes you "lose all respect for Pascal Maynard" or that you're ashamed he would "sell out for so little" seems like a complete overreaction.

[KrauserKrauser]

Objectively, yes, the Burst Lightning was the correct pick.

In the real world, you are passing up almost as much as the 2nd place prize, which is insane to let go.

I understand the struggle and most of the commentary may just be friendly ribbing.  He did a great thing by offering half of the proceeds to GHG.

[Space_Stormy]

I feel the real discussion is the mere existence of a cards that can warp a draft simply because of its value.  Taking that card was him guaranteeing the semifinals with how much it is worth.

[Bill Copes]

Pundits like to pundt.

[Wagner]

For reference, another Foil stamped Goyf for the GP is also on sale and is asking $900 obo. So let's assume it might sell at 700-800. The story really makes a huge difference.

[Killane]

The current bid for the Top 8 Goyf is almost $3300 - crazy!

There's a lengthly Facebook discussion in which Turtenwald and Duke apologize for thier harsh langueage, and Maynard accepted. People at the top of any field can get a bit salty with each other from time to time - looks lik Maynard took it in stride.

It would be really hilarious if the Goyf sold for more than 220% of the GP prize for 1st (since there are sellers fees and he's donating 50% to Gamers Helping Gamers). If I was really rich I'd put in a bid just to make that happen.

We're on a forum where many members own at least $50,000 worth of cardboard (a set of Beta Power + a Playset of Beta Duals is over thr $50k mark - how insane is THAT?) - surely someone on here is really rich, right? Make it happen!

[TheWhiteDragon]

I get the jealous/gamesmanship response of some.  Those wanting to play want to compete against the best decks and win. 

That said, there is a reality outside of the game.  If I had a shot at drafting a card for keeps worth as much as the 2nd or 1st place prize before ever playing a match - for the small cost of ONE card in my draft deck - I'd most certainly do it.  You'd have to borderline crazy not to.  If I needed the money or not, wouldn't it make sense to take 39 cards (+lands) that give me a shot at the win, PLUS the #2 prize off the bat, vs 40 cards that give me a shot to win and forfeit the #2 prize?

If he'd have taken the BL, the guy next to him would have crapped himself and laughed all the way to the bank.  Instead of trashing him as a villian, people would have been dogging him as a fool.

[CHA1N5]

I feel the real discussion is the mere existence of a cards that can warp a draft simply because of its value. 

I think everyone has already elucidated good points, but this is an interesting position that I'd not considered.  Goyf (foil or otherwise) already has this set referred to as The Lottery.  That element seeping into nearly the highest level of play is simultaneously exciting and awful for WotC.  Sadly, I think the awfulness will (is) be(ing) drowned out.

[TheMonadNomad]

I would have done the exact same thing - it comes down to getting immediate value or a percentage gain towards potential future value.  The fact that he is giving partial proceeds of the card to charity is just icing on the cake. 

[JACO]

The reason that some other pros were so harsh is not because it's a question of rare-drafting a $300 card (Foil Tarmogoyf) vs. a common, but the issue of winning the tournament, and with it having better hopes to secure a slot in Worlds (and beyond). That is worth far more to anybody who lives their life as a 'pro' than the expected value of any card they could open (or even the ensuing charity auction). Even if they could (which they can't), how much would any true Magic pro just pay outright to buy a slot into Worlds (16 extremely hard to get slots available)? The calculus would probably be $10K easily (when factoring in appearance fees and other things with Platinum status), and for some probably much more, if they didn't have spend the time to grind their way in. That, and the pure competition between the game's elite at the highest level, is why throwing away those potential opportunities for such a short-sighted thing like rare-drafting is so repugnant to some.

[Wagner]

Thing is, picking a better card does give you a slight advantage that might or might not change the outcome, but picking a $300-500 does give a player with limited funds like Maynard an opportunity do to another tournament that he might not have otherwise had to cash to go. For players with plenty of cash to travel the world for GPs, that factor is irrelevant, but for someone needing the money to keep playing on the pro scene, $500 needs to be taken into account. And that a lot to factor in with less than 1 minute to make a decision.

[Smmenen]

I feel the real discussion is the mere existence of a cards that can warp a draft simply because of its value. 

I think everyone has already elucidated good points, but this is an interesting position that I'd not considered.  Goyf (foil or otherwise) already has this set referred to as The Lottery.  That element seeping into nearly the highest level of play is simultaneously exciting and awful for WotC.  Sadly, I think the awfulness will (is) be(ing) drowned out.

Excellent point.  That part of what's bothering so many people is the tension between Magic as a game of skill and a collectible. 

But this isn't the first or last time that the value of cards affects outcomes.  Anyone remember when Kai won a Magic invitational by using Jeweled Bird in 5color? 

This debate reminds me a little bit of the debates over whether NFL teams should tank games to try to win the Andrew Luck sweepstakes.  Clearly, the answer was yes. 

[Varal]

I feel the real discussion is the mere existence of a cards that can warp a draft simply because of its value. 

I think everyone has already elucidated good points, but this is an interesting position that I'd not considered.  Goyf (foil or otherwise) already has this set referred to as The Lottery.  That element seeping into nearly the highest level of play is simultaneously exciting and awful for WotC.  Sadly, I think the awfulness will (is) be(ing) drowned out.

Excellent point.  That part of what's bothering so many people is the tension between Magic as a game of skill and a collectible. 

But this isn't the first or last time that the value of cards affects outcomes.  Anyone remember when Kai won a Magic invitational by using Jeweled Bird in 5color? 

This debate reminds me a little bit of the debates over whether NFL teams should tank games to try to win the Andrew Luck sweepstakes.  Clearly, the answer was yes. 

I do remember it, I didn't find it awful back then except the fact that 5 color replaced Vintage Type 1. It's not more different than someone getting a god draw or something similar. The difference with the foil Tarmogoyf is not that he was lucky but that he had to choose between winning and making money. If he wanted to win he had to sacrifice money; it's the constructed equivalent of offering to play a second Ancestral Recall for $200.

[Wagner]

I guess there have been a lot of fake bids, 20 bids have been removed the the price is going down.

[vaughnbros]

So in essence we are talking about a marginal improvement of 2.5% of your deck vs a few hundred dollars?  The decision is clear, and anyone saying that they would've passed has to be incredibly rich, an idiot or lying.

This really does highlight the problem of collectible vs game.  While the whole idea of collectible card game is great, and has earned Wizards piles of money, its also an unsustainable model.  You can't completely retain the integrity of both collectibles and the game simultaneously.  We are seeing this struggle happening to a huge extent in Legacy and Vintage, but Wizards has essentially told us that collectible aspect is more important than the game in this situation by giving little to no support to these formats.  The issue of course now is that we are seeing this problem seep into formats that Wizards does want to support, Modern and Commander.  At some point they have to ask themselves what type of product are they making, collectibles or a game?

[TheWhiteDragon]

So in essence we are talking about a marginal improvement of 2.5% of your deck vs a few hundred dollars?  The decision is clear, and anyone saying that they would've passed has to be incredibly rich, an idiot or lying.

This really does highlight the problem of collectible vs game.  While the whole idea of collectible card game is great, and has earned Wizards piles of money, its also an unsustainable model.  You can't completely retain the integrity of both collectibles and the game simultaneously.  We are seeing this struggle happening to a huge extent in Legacy and Vintage, but Wizards has essentially told us that collectible aspect is more important than the game in this situation by giving little to no support to these formats.  The issue of course now is that we are seeing this problem seep into formats that Wizards does want to support, Modern and Commander.  At some point they have to ask themselves what type of product are they making, collectibles or a game?

Modern Masters is an attempt to bridge that gap....it'll keep goyfs in a "reasonable" range and will support the game while collectors still stockpile the best rares.

[vaughnbros]

Modern Masters is an attempt to bridge that gap....it'll keep goyfs in a "reasonable" range and will support the game while collectors still stockpile the best rares.

Is it though?  I'm not sure what your definition of reasonable is, but Goyf is nearly $200 and it was just printed!  I mean really we have a pro player rare drafting it in the top 8 of a GP.  If the integrity of a draft at one of the highest levels of the game is being hurt...  I'm not sure the problem has ever been as big as it is now.

[fsecco]

The card is currently going for more than 14k on ebay. I don't think this discussion is valid after this simple data.

[NosferatuStuff]

Modern Masters is an attempt to bridge that gap....it'll keep goyfs in a "reasonable" range and will support the game while collectors still stockpile the best rares.

Is it though?  I'm not sure what your definition of reasonable is, but Goyf is nearly $200 and it was just printed!  I mean really we have a pro player rare drafting it in the top 8 of a GP.  If the integrity of a draft at one of the highest levels of the game is being hurt...  I'm not sure the problem has ever been as big as it is now.

These arguments about collectible vs non-collectible always seem invalid to me.  I mean there are so many ways they can alter magic cards to give collectible versions vs play versions it's an obvious lie to say they can't cater to both worlds.  Just look at the card Nicol Bolas, grab a chronicles edition for $1, or the legends first edition for $20, or from the vaults foil for $55.  In the realm of "reasonable costs to play a game" this sums it up perfectly.  Assuming you just want to play, grab an entire deck of white boarder mass printings for $1.  Are you a die hard collector, good luck on the search for a very limited print run first edition mint Legends card.  Do you want to spend money and show off your pimp-ness, we have one of those for you as well.  Having $1 Bolas has done literally nothing to the collectability of the other versions.  In fact having 3 versions just gives you more things to collect.

If there were $20 Tarmogoyfs there could still be $300 foil special edition Tarmogoyfs and everyone could be happy.  I think they had it right the first time with limited edition alpha/beta and unlimited editions after that.  I mean its 20+ years later and the prices of old cards easily reflect that. 

[vaughnbros]

Modern Masters is an attempt to bridge that gap....it'll keep goyfs in a "reasonable" range and will support the game while collectors still stockpile the best rares.

Is it though?  I'm not sure what your definition of reasonable is, but Goyf is nearly $200 and it was just printed!  I mean really we have a pro player rare drafting it in the top 8 of a GP.  If the integrity of a draft at one of the highest levels of the game is being hurt...  I'm not sure the problem has ever been as big as it is now.

These arguments about collectible vs non-collectible always seem invalid to me.  I mean there are so many ways they can alter magic cards to give collectible versions vs play versions it's an obvious lie to say they can't cater to both worlds.  Just look at the card Nicol Bolas, grab a chronicles edition for $1, or the legends first edition for $20, or from the vaults foil for $55.  In the realm of "reasonable costs to play a game" this sums it up perfectly.  Assuming you just want to play, grab an entire deck of white boarder mass printings for $1.  Are you a die hard collector, good luck on the search for a very limited print run first edition mint Legends card.  Do you want to spend money and show off your pimp-ness, we have one of those for you as well.  Having $1 Bolas has done literally nothing to the collectability of the other versions.  In fact having 3 versions just gives you more things to collect.

I'm fairly sure all of Nicol Bolas' value comes from his collect ability.  He doesn't see competitive play in anything.

If there were $20 Tarmogoyfs there could still be $300 foil special edition Tarmogoyfs and everyone could be happy. 

This just isn't the case.  We don't have $20 Tarmogoyfs and $300 foil special Tarmogoyfs.  We have $200 regular tarmogoyfs and $600 foil tarmogoyfs, and then a single $14000 foil tarmogoyf that has a story behind it.  If Wizard decided to massively print tarmogoyf devaluing the regulars to $20 and the foils to $300, that is hurting the integrity of the collectible secondary market.  Even if I was just invested in the foils you've just killed 50% of the value of my cards...

I think they had it right the first time with limited edition alpha/beta and unlimited editions after that.  I mean its 20+ years later and the prices of old cards easily reflect that

Did they?  It would be silly to think that the reserved list didn't have any influence on these cards becoming more collectible.  The prices of unlimited and alpha/beta are different for sure, but unlimited editions are still collectible otherwise the condition wouldn't matter so much, and they wouldn't be so expensive.

To bring this to a bigger picture.  How often do you make deck choices in a tournament based on the cards that you own and not on what you think are the best cards?  With the exception of proxy tournaments and people with huge collections, I feel this is a fairly common occurrence for most people.  If there were no balancing act between game and collectibles we would always be playing what we believe to be the optimal deck.

[bactgudz]

I don't really understand why Modern Masters packs contain foils in the first place.  I understand that since they do, they have to be something like 1-per-pack or else they'd be rarer than the set foils.  

But really, why are they doing this? This is supposed to be a product for accessibility to the modern card play pool not accessibility to the collector's market.  It always seemed almost kind of dirty to me that these packs contain foils at all.  

And the fact that any foil is one-per-pack, just like the old alara whole pack foil nonsense, somehow degrades the concept of foily-ness itself to me.

[youhavenogame]

This is not about "hurting the integrity of collectors" but rather about "not hurting the integrity of speculators and big dealers". I don't think true collectors exist in big numbers, and most of them are rather looking for really valuable and hard to get cards, rather than just completing each set.

I don't know what's wrong about putting a guaranteed foil in a 10 dollar pack. If you pay 10 dollars, you want to have at least some return - and in 99% its a useless c/uc anyway, so why the hassle?

[Varal]

The one foil per pack is the reason they used to justify selling Modern Masters at twice the normal value. A set of expensive cards cost nearly the same to produce than a set of cheap cards but foils are more expensive to produce thus we double the pack price.

[MaximumCDawg]

In the moment, the player was being asked to pay $350 for the privilege of having a Burst Lightning in his deck.

I tend to agree with the perspective of the folks at Brainstorm Brewery on this one.  They point out that Pros complaining about a rare-draft like this are completely and utterly out of touch with what people deal with who are trying to crack into the professional magic world, or just finance their hobby.

Traveling is expensive.  Rare drafting, particularly in this case, is allowing a player to finance more Magic than even winning the tournament would have done.  Even if you are primarily interested in winning for Pro points, $10,000.00 lets you play in more tournaments and earn more points than taking a Burst Lightning.

Excellent point.  That part of what's bothering so many people is the tension between Magic as a game of skill and a collectible. 

But this isn't the first or last time that the value of cards affects outcomes.  Anyone remember when Kai won a Magic invitational by using Jeweled Bird in 5color? 

This debate reminds me a little bit of the debates over whether NFL teams should tank games to try to win the Andrew Luck sweepstakes.  Clearly, the answer was yes. 

This is true, but part of why Modern Masters 2015 has generated controversy is that the lottery aspect of the set seems to have been increased.  With the first MM, you could reliably pull decent commons and uncommons from Ravnica or Lorywn eras.  The rares were good.  The "stinker" cards really occurred at Mythic, with the Kamigawa Dragon cycle taking up lots of slots. In MM2015, all the value is in the Mythic slot with a few minor cards at Rare.  So, people are rightly annoyed that it's feast or famine here.

Jealousy is an ugly thing.

Envy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmx1jpqv3RA

[JarofFortune]

Looks like the auction ended today. It ended up going for just under $15,000.

[The Atog Lord]

Envy.

Thank you. I stand corrected.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Looks like the auction ended today. It ended up going for just under $15,000.

Anyone still think he should have drafted burst lightning?  $15K rare, or 15 cent common and a 0.5% better chance at winning...hrmm, let me think about that for one zillionth of a second.