[ORG]Jace,Vryn's Prodigy//Jace, Telepath Unbound

[gkraigher]

Here is the exact rule in the oracle text that shows how wrong MODO and your judge friends are:


1) A double-faced card enters the battlefield with its front face up by default, unless a spell or ability instructs you to put it onto the battlefield transformed, in which case it enters with its back face up.

Jace activates his ability, in order for it to be considered resolved he has to get exiled and return as a planeswalker.  The card is entering the battlefield transformed, as a planewalker.  

Containment Priest doesn't have a chance to exile the card until it is actually coming back into play.

For the record Judges get questions wrong all the time, it's just that most people don't appeal the decisions.  I bet 90% of your judge friends would get the Inkmoth Nexus, Sword of Fire and Ice, Melira Sylvok Outcast question wrong. 

[Chubby Rain]

Containment Priest doesn't ask what something used to be, it asks what it is in some context.  While asking this question, It seems very possible that the only info Priest has access to is the front-face of the card; and if you ask when seeing the front face, you get a clear answer that this is a creature.

711.5 uses the keyword "permanent" which suggests that it only applies while on the battlefield and this interpretation is corroborated by the examples given where you got this rule.

Even if this is not the case, the point I was trying to make is that, if the replacement effect is based on the card "as it would exist on the battlefield" which would be as Jace, Telepath Unbound, 711.5 prevents Containment Priest's replacement effect from seeing the Jace, Vryn's Prodigy side of the card. Again, 701.25 would not apply because we are considering the card "as it would exist on the battlefield" and 701.25 explicit applies while the card is not on the battlefield.

[wappla]

@gkraigher, as I said yesterday, we eventually came to the conclusion it was a bug.

After discussing it some more, I've been told it is indeed a MTGO bug.

This equivalent example was cited to me:

2. Assuming that there is an empty board state when Collected Company is cast, will Hallowed Moonlight prevent Athreos from entering the battlefield?


A: 614.12 applies to Hallowed Moonlight exactly the same as it applies to Imposing Sovereign. Under the Moonlight, a Theros God that’s entering the battlefield off a Collected Company (or Chord of Calling, or Birthing Pod, etc.) will be exiled if and only if its controller already has sufficient devotion to the appropriate color(s) on the board for it to be a creature. The God’s own mana symbols are not taken into account, nor are the symbols of any other permanents that happen to be trying to enter the battlefield at the same time.
So in the given situation, with Athreos arriving onto an empty board, Hallowed Moonlight will not apply, and Athreos will enter the battlefield unhindered.
Approved by Callum Milne, L2, Netrep, Nanaimo Canada
Source: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/20533/

from http://blogs.magicjudges.org/blog/2015/09/11/magic-judge-monthly-august-2015/

[bactgudz]

Containment Priest doesn't ask what something used to be, it asks what it is in some context.  While asking this question, It seems very possible that the only info Priest has access to is the front-face of the card; and if you ask when seeing the front face, you get a clear answer that this is a creature.

Sigh...

711.5 uses the keyword "permanent" which suggests that it only applies while on the battlefield and this interpretation is corroborated by the examples given where you got this rule.

Even if this is not the case, the point I was trying to make is that, if the replacement effect is based on the card "as it would exist on the battlefield" which would be as Jace, Telepath Unbound, 711.5 prevents Containment Priest's replacement effect from seeing the Jace, Vryn's Prodigy side of the card. Again, 701.25 would not apply because we are considering the card "as it would exist on the battlefield" and 701.25 explicit applies while the card is not on the battlefield.

"as it would exist on the battlefield" is as a permanent.  You want to ask about the characteristics of that permanent.  In doing this you reference the card that will become that permanent. That card only has one set of characteristics, and the only ones the game can see at any time are on the side of the card that is face-up at that time.  

I can understand if you think the 701.25 ruling is not enough, but when the rules say that both as a permanent and when not on the battlefield what matters is the current face of the card itself it is not cut and dry when the game rules are supposed to peek at the back.

@wappla, that example does not seem to address this issue

[wappla]

It does. Hallowed Moonlight creates an identical effect, as far as these cases are concerned. The Creature status of the God entering play is the same type of replacement effect as Jace returning transformed. I also have a response from WoTC that Hallowed Moonlight/Containment Priest should not be exiling Jace.

I definitely agree with you that Hallowed Moonlight should not prevent Jace from returning to the battlefield as a planeswalker. Our developers have that one on their list of issues to fix in the new few weeks.

I initially submitted the bug report on September 5th. That response is from yesterday after I followed up after seeing that the bug had yet to be fixed.

[Chubby Rain]

"as it would exist on the battlefield" is as a permanent.  You want to ask about the characteristics of that permanent.  In doing this you reference the card that will become that permanent. That card only has one set of characteristics, and the only ones the game can see at any time are on the side of the card that is face-up at that time.  

The ability is trying to return the card to the battlefield Transformed, i.e. with the back-side up. Rule 711.5 states that the replacement effect will only have access to the card side that is currently face-up, which "as it would exist on the battlefield", means the back-side of the card - Jace, Telepath Unbound. I don't think this is an inconsistent ruling.

In any case, the response from Wizards makes it clear how the cards should function even if the patchwork rulebook makes that hard to elucidate (and the programming of MODO is deficient).

P.S. Magic rules are complicated...more power to the judges.

[Chubby Rain]

Hope every blue player grabbed their set. The card just peaked at $85.

[MaximumCDawg]

Hope every blue player grabbed their set. The card just peaked at $85.

I will never understand this insanity.  The card is in print and people will pay the price of a whole box?  Ok.

Looks like I'm not playing with this card ever.

[MTGFan]

Hope every blue player grabbed their set. The card just peaked at $85.

I will never understand this insanity.  The card is in print and people will pay the price of a whole box?  Ok.

Looks like I'm not playing with this card ever.

All you had to do was pre-order this obviously good Snapcaster-esque card like everyone else who knows something good when they first see it.

[Islandswamp]

I didn't buy any yet. If I need it some day, I'll figure something out.

It's a great card, but that is a lot for a card that is that new.

[Aaron Patten]

Mind Sculptor was the same way.

[youhavenogame]

Mind Sculptor was the same way.

Mind Sculptor is an amazing card - new Jace is not. Looting + flashbacking spells is sweet and he def has a place in Vintage, but the card is not flexible enough by itself. One side loots, the other side flashbacks spells, limited to sorcery speed. Snapcaster would lose a lot of value if you couldn't flashback counterspells. Giving a creature -2-0 is mostly irrelevant (even though it comes up at times) but often you just effectively do nothing by plussing him.

It's a fine card to pay 20-25$ for. Anything else is T2 hype. 

[Commandant]

This card is beyond busted. The fact that it's been flying under the radar is surprising. In modern Vintage this guy is a relevant and better positioned JtMS. All of his modes are viable and it isn't Flashback, his second ability allows you to cast any card from the graveyard this includes alternate casting costs. His first ability allows him an immense amount of longevity considering his starting loyalty and the ultimate is actually relevant and can end games in a prompt manner.

[Chubby Rain]

Mind Sculptor is an amazing card - new Jace is not. Looting + flashbacking spells is sweet and he def has a place in Vintage, but the card is not flexible enough by itself. One side loots, the other side flashbacks spells, limited to sorcery speed. Snapcaster would lose a lot of value if you couldn't flashback counterspells. Giving a creature -2-0 is mostly irrelevant (even though it comes up at times) but often you just effectively do nothing by plussing him.

It's a fine card to pay 20-25$ for. Anything else is T2 hype. 

The more I play this card, the more I become convinced that this is the best planeswalker printed so far. You are ignoring the fact that he costs two mana, fixes draws with the looting, and has the potential to flashback multiple spells. The -2/-0 is mostly irrelevant but hardly a negative - you are generating loyalty which allows you to flashback additional spells. Any advantage you get from the -2/-0 part is pure value.

As far as what he should be worth, your opinion is irrelevant. The price of a card is determined by supply and demand. Economics 101.

[gkraigher]

Its opening price was $10, it's current price is $30,  and since this looks like the only printing the card will ever see, $30 now sounds cheap, especially considering it's playability in Legacy, Modern, and EDH. 

IT WAS CHEAP!  $70 reg, $110 foil.  WOW

[serracollector]

Just like Jtms there is a high probability this gets the ban hammer in standard and or modern then it will pull a dr shaman and drop to the ten fifteen dollar range.

[Chubby Rain]

Just like Jtms there is a high probability this gets the ban hammer in standard and or modern then it will pull a dr shaman and drop to the ten fifteen dollar range.

Bans in Standard have a lot more to do with a lack of competitive alternatives. Bloodbraid Elf and Blightning in Jund kept Jace in check for 1/2 of his time in Standard. Unfortunately, Scars block had the exact opposite effect of crushing opposing aggressive strategies with the Caw and Batterskull. While I think Prodigy will prove to be the better Jace in formats in which both are legal, his power scales with the format as you have access to more powerful spells, and Wizards has definitely pushed the other colors in Standard and these decks will likely be able to compete with Blue Jace decks.

[gkraigher]

The card is not overpowered in standard.  It's good, but it doesn't take over the game like JtMS was in standard.  I don't know if you remember that standard, but by the end of the format, you either had 4 jaces in your deck or you were in the loser's bracket. 

[serracollector]

I believe it will be the same with baby jace and this standard. We got blue duals and fetches. You can literally splash this guy in ANY deck just for draw and recursion or spells. Its most def does not have to be in a blue deck.

[icecoldbath]

I've been splitting it as a 1 of with snapcaster in a jeskai delver list. They are similar effects, but definitely different. Jace is better when going on offense, Snaps is better when you are behind. The most disgusting thing i've done is Time walk twice with a delver attacking for 9 damage.

[Chubby Rain]

I've been splitting it as a 1 of with snapcaster in a jeskai delver list. They are similar effects, but definitely different. Jace is better when going on offense, Snaps is better when you are behind. The most disgusting thing i've done is Time walk twice with a delver attacking for 9 damage.

We need to get you playing more broken cards. I flashed back a Time Walk, Dig, and Gush with a Mentor in play over a span of 2 turns (it's convenient how Prodigy and Telepath are not the same cards for legend rule purposes). We won that game.

[vaughnbros]

The card is not overpowered in standard.  It's good, but it doesn't take over the game like JtMS was in standard.  I don't know if you remember that standard, but by the end of the format, you either had 4 jaces in your deck or you were in the loser's bracket.  

Except that Jund was the best deck for the first year JtMS was in standard.  It wasn't until Alara rotated, and two shuffle effects (in addition to fetches) were printed Squadron, and Stoneforge->Swords/Batterskull that Jace really became dominant.

If an efficient graveyard card gets printed, I'd expect Baby Jace to be dominant in standard.

[youhavenogame]

It's the summoning sickness that keeps me from believing that this is the new format changing allstar. Plus the fact that it looks so slow - play it, wait a turn, loot and flashback, wait another turn, then probably wait another turn until you can flashback something... maybe it just plays out way different than I assemble it in my head.

[Islandswamp]

It's the summoning sickness that keeps me from believing that this is the new format changing allstar. Plus the fact that it looks so slow - play it, wait a turn, loot and flashback, wait another turn, then probably wait another turn until you can flashback something... maybe it just plays out way different than I assemble it in my head.

I think that it is a lot better than you might think . In part, this is due to the low mana investment. I suggest proxying the card and trying it to see.

[youhavenogame]

To be honest, if I can fetch up a copy or 2 before the MKM Prague in 2 weeks I'm going to test it at the tournament My only concern with Jace is that he can only flashback counterspells on my turn.

[Chubby Rain]

To be honest, if I can fetch up a copy or 2 before the MKM Prague in 2 weeks I'm going to test it at the tournament My only concern with Jace is that he can only flashback counterspells on my turn.

Yeah, he is weaker with counterspells. You just build your deck with more removal, discard, and/or card draw.

[Aaron Patten]

You could target Arcane denial and then if they don't counter whatever you're casting on your turn you can just use it to counter your own mox or something.  Also if they counter your spell while you have arcane available it is pretty strong incentive for them not to do that since you can counter your own spell in response and ancestral yourself on top of the card for card attrition of them countering your spell.  Just a random thought that popped into my head.

[serracollector]

Flashing back Abeyance seems pretty good too if your trying to protect things during your turn.

[marcb]

I was messing with this card yesterday, and found it rare but hilarious that after looting with it and Dack, it can combo with Dack's ultimate to steal creatures for profit.

[gkraigher]

I was messing with this card yesterday, and found it rare but hilarious that after looting with it and Dack, it can combo with Dack's ultimate to steal creatures for profit.

very interesting use of it's plus ability (that was origionally conceived to be worthless).