Vintage Proxies

[Max Power]

Hello TMD readers,

I am new to vintage and am a part of a community here in Santa Maria, Ca. that has a growing interest in the vintage format.  Specifically, 10-15 proxy vintage.  One key factor that keeps players from vintage is that playing with proxies simply doesn't feel like magic.  I am aware of the general standards in this community for proxies but was wondering about some details.

There does not seem to be room in the current definition of proxy cards to allow for Artist Proofs with sketches (I own a CR Lotus and a set of those Frazier Moxen myself that I use instead of real power when away from home).  No one has ever had an issue understanding what a hand drawn sketch of a mox emerald on an AP does.  The giant green emerald is as obvious as a foil Russian card if not more so.  I can not tell the difference in the deck as to which is which, but perhaps there have been issues in the past?

It seems to me that the elaborate proxy method for direct printing, which leaves cards slightly heavier but still roughly the same thickness (as altered cards often are) would be allowed.  By direct printing, I mean that it does not use a decal/sticker applied to either a foil or peeled foil.

Many have asked me about getting proxies together but I have never played in any event that allowed proxies.  I just want to clarify those two avenues for proxies:  Artist Proof cards with sketches and direct printed cards that may weigh slightly more than regular cards, but very very close.

Thanks - Nick

[Space_Stormy]

This is a bit off topic but refereeing to your players that don't like proxies, I've found that if people don't like playing off a basic land or a backwards card, if they get some acetone they can modify the mana rocks from Mirage, erasing the Mana cost, Name and the 'comes into play tapped' clause writing in "Mox ___" and just doing a 0 for the mana cost.  Same with Guilded Lotus, Second Chance, Ancestral Vision.  I've found that if it is just an altered card people feel like it is playing with a real card and helps opponents know what your cards are.  Also if people don't wanna mess up their real cards, the older basic lands that have the "Tap: Add X to your mana pool" makes them feel more like moxes.

[Max Power]

This is a bit off topic but refereeing to your players that don't like proxies, I've found that if people don't like playing off a basic land or a backwards card, if they get some acetone they can modify the mana rocks from Mirage, erasing the Mana cost, Name and the 'comes into play tapped' clause writing in "Mox ___" and just doing a 0 for the mana cost.  Same with Guilded Lotus, Second Chance, Ancestral Vision.  I've found that if it is just an altered card people feel like it is playing with a real card and helps opponents know what your cards are.  Also if people don't wanna mess up their real cards, the older basic lands that have the "Tap: Add X to your mana pool" makes them feel more like moxes.

Not really off topic.  We do have access to these and a few are made, but I thought I'd check and see about the printed ones and AP ones.  Mostly to add a distinct flavor to our vintage scene.  That is to say that I can see it taking on a feel of its own because with high quality proxies, there is a second incentive to play.  Sort of like "cool, I get to use my alternate art black lotus" feeling for example.  When well done, proxy's not only take the "money shaming" out of playing with powerful cards and allow players to focus on what's important (high power/high stakes plays that involve a very well developed meta game) but also allow for a second level of immersion into the artistic and aesthetic appeal that keeps magic players from moving on to poker or other competitive card games.

[gribdogs]

I just peel the foil off and then print directly on the card using my printer.  That way you get nearly exact card thickness so it plays nicely with the rest of the 'real' cards in the deck. 

My friend does the super fancy way of printing onto transparencies, cleaning foils, and then gluing the entire 75 together so all have the same thickness (usually double a normal card). 

Frankly, I'm not a fan of all the alternate artwork proxies people use, as I cannot immediately identify the card without the classic artwork.  However, I also recognize that using the original artwork is likely illegal due to WOTC copyright protection, so I don't blame them at all for pimping out their proxies. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Proxies are great, though they do stop the tournament from being sanctioned.  Rule No. 1 of proxies, however: run all your proxies past the tournament organizer BEFORE you start a proxy tournament.  Some places have different standards for what is acceptable!

I'm a huge fan of people who do more with their proxies than just put sharpie on basic land.  That's lazy, man.  If you're not gonna shell out $10,000 to play Vintage, I don't blame you, but at least put some effort into it.  In my mind, the goal is threefold: (1) Proxy must be indistinguishable from a regular Magic card in a sleeve by touch or from the back; (2) Proxy must be easily distinguishable from a real Magic card from the front so there's no risk of counterfeits getting into circulation; and (3) Proxy should be fun, entertaining, or demonstrate some effort.

Along those lines, here are my suggestions.  

1. Draw or Print Your Own

As people mentioned, acetone will strip the ink off the surface of a card, leaving you with a big blank white slate.  Just tape it down and gently rub an acetone-damped rag on it for like ten minutes.  Or, you can go buy some of those blank cards they sold with the World Champion sets -- they're on ebay.  In fact, some people on eBay also sell sets of blanked cards, so you can do that, too.  They're not too expensive.

Once you have it blanked, you can pick up a pen and draw on it.  Or, with the right printer, you can print on it.  I don't recommend printing on a transparency or sticker, because that changes the thickness of the card and makes it distinguishable from the back.  If you chose to print, then use some alternative art.  It looks better, and then there's no fear anyone will ever mistake it for the original.

2. Order Some

There's lots of places that specialize in proxies.  Check it out:

https://www.etsy.com/search?q=magic%20proxies

I've actually ordered a few from different folks on etsy, and I can report that they match the three criteria I laid out initially.  You can get really sweet alternative art, including art that does not include any of the WotC copyrighted artwork, and it will NEVER be mistaken for the original.  Even if you were shady and got the original art, the printers these guys use are nowhere near as good as the ones WotC uses.  You can tell that it's not legit even in a sleeve if you pick it up.  

However, I can't tell you how they strip cards; some that I got felt a little thin so they might be sanding them.  If so, then the thickness isn't the same and won't work.  Also, make sure you don't get stickers or something from these guys, either, because the thickness will be wrong.

The biggest concern I have with these is that it's hard to tell if the original artist of altered art gets credit when you do this.  It seems like most artists have Deviant Art pages nowadays, though, so if it you were really interested in this you could probably look them up and make sure it's cool with them if you get their art on a proxy.

And here's what NOT to do, in my opinion:

1. Don't just sharpie a land.

This is so totally lazy.  I mean, I get it, if you're making last minute changes you don't have a proxy sitting around.  Certainly these do the trick and there's no concern about differentiating the card from the back.  Some TOs insist on this as the only way, because it's so foolproof and easy to check.  All of that said, it's just so uninteresting and it makes the board state hard to understand at a glance.  I hate this.

2. Don't cut the corners off CE cards.

People who do this are carving up a limited part of Magic's history in the mistaken idea they can match normal card's corners exactly.  Please, please don't condone this behavior.

3. Counterfeits

If you have a "proxy" that is indistinguishable from the real deal until you bust out the jeweler's loupe, then you don't have a proxy at all.  You've got a counterfeit.  You should report whoever you got it from to WotC.

[schof]

I have some excellent proxies drawn by the artists themselves for my power. They are clear as to what they represent(the art is basically left the same, or modified in a way that makes it clear). However, my proxies tend to not have any text on them. Usually just the art.

Here is a recent proxy issue that came up for me:
(Let me start by saying I totally respect the decision by Nick, this is in no way an attack or complaint, merely a philosophical point/discussion. I will obviously comply, and have no hard feelings as to the ruling.)

For NYSE, one of the requirements of proxies, is that they have the full text. To avoid ruining my stunningly beautiful proxies, I write on the perfect fits in sharpie, and slide that over. This was oked by the TO. But an interesting discussion came up: would it be ok to put the words on the sleeve, in german. This might sound strange, but consider that my deck is completely german where possible(excluding some cards that don't exist in german ofc). On one hand, german cards are legal, and very few people can read them here in the US. If a player is unable to read them, they can ask any judge for oracle text. So why wouldn't it be ok if my proxies were also german? The final ruling was: no, I could not put their text in german. His point was "the point of a proxy is to communicate what the card does without having the card." In a deck where about 49-51 cards are not in english, this doesn't feel relevant. If a player wants to confirm what my card is, they'll need to ask oracle text in almost every single case. But this is a slippery slope. If german text is ok, what language texts are not ok? What about Phyrexian? There is a official legal card in phyrexian, so is Phyrexian ok here? If Phyrexian is ok, then no text whatsoever should be ok, which returns us to the original proxy.

This is the kind of difficulties that arise with proxies. This is why they'll always be evaluated on a case to case basis. I for-one, think that my text-less proxies should be completely ok. If anything, I think that they should only need their card names added to make them legal, just so that there is some agreement as to what I'm claiming them to be.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, it's all context-driven.  If you're proxying Power Nine in Vintage, the vast majority of the time the TO probably won't demand you write out all of the text on the card.  They're simple and people know what they do.  For more complicated cards like Time Vault or Oath of Druids (not that you'd proxy Oath) Oracle text becomes a bigger deal.

Basically, do your best and ask the TO.  You can always bust out dat sharpie if the TO says no!

P.S. If I were a TO I'd totally allow Artist's Proofs and printed cards.  Just make sure the player has to register proxies and get to the store an hour early to allow check-in if they're doing something our of the ordinary.