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Author Topic: Shahrazad & Extra Turns  (Read 1699 times)
Smmenen
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« on: October 19, 2015, 04:19:38 pm »

Realizing that Shahrazad is banned in Vintage & Legacy, and is no longer really supported, it WAS legal until (I think) 2008. 

If players are in extra turns, what happens when you cast Shahrazad?  How do you resolve it?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2015, 04:45:56 pm »

Realizing that Shahrazad is banned in Vintage & Legacy, and is no longer really supported, it WAS legal until (I think) 2008. 

If players are in extra turns, what happens when you cast Shahrazad?  How do you resolve it?

Considering it's not legal in any organized magic I dont think there is a real answer.  Id say that your turns within Shahrazzad count towards the total.  The only other possibility, that the Shahrazzad turns don't count. would not make logistical sense in terms of the reason for a time limit on tourny matches in the first place.
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thecrav
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2015, 05:54:20 pm »

^ Seconded

Quote
2.5 End-of-Match Procedure
If the match time limit is reached before a winner is determined, the player whose turn it is finishes his or her turn and five additional turns are played in total. This usually means that one player takes three turns and the other two, but a player taking extra turns may affect this. Team tournaments featuring multiple players playing together (such as Two-Headed Giant) use three turns instead of five.

So you get your current turn, plus five additional, regardless of whose turn it is or how those turns are generated. In this case, I'd argue that the turn in a sub-game is still a turn. Therefore, you get five total turns, regardless of how far down the rabbit hole you've gone.



This does introduce a problem with the possibility of playing Shahrazad on turn one of each subgame thus never actually hitting the end of any turns. However, this is addressed by the next clause:

Quote
Once time is called, no new games should begin.

Is a subgame considered a game? If so, then you can't start a new sub-game once time has been called so you will eventually win, lose, naturally draw, or run out of turns.

If a subgame is not considered a game... well, I can't imagine not considering it a game, so I won't go into it.

edit:

To actually answer your question, not just talk about Shahrazad and extra turns...
If players are in extra turns, what happens when you cast Shahrazad?  How do you resolve it?

Given my second above point and the fact that the rules of the tournament are above the rules of the game, resolving Shahrazad would force you to do something that is against the rules of the tournament and should be punished in the same way as taking too many extra turns.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 05:56:58 pm by thecrav » Logged

Instead of tearing things down we should calmly explain our opinions.
Smmenen
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2015, 06:04:10 pm »

Realizing that Shahrazad is banned in Vintage & Legacy, and is no longer really supported, it WAS legal until (I think) 2008. 

If players are in extra turns, what happens when you cast Shahrazad?  How do you resolve it?

Considering it's not legal in any organized magic I dont think there is a real answer. 

Which is why I pointed out that it was legal before 2008.  I don't think extra rule turns have changed since then.  There must have been an answer then.
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Clariax
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 04:27:53 am »

When shahrazad was legal any turns taken in the sub game counted as part of the 5 turns.

That said, the rules forum is for rules questions and answers. How something worked many years ago is borderline on acceptability, and the various responses speculating how people think it should be are far past that borderline.
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Aaron Cutler
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 02:18:44 pm »

^ Seconded

Quote
2.5 End-of-Match Procedure
If the match time limit is reached before a winner is determined, the player whose turn it is finishes his or her turn and five additional turns are played in total. This usually means that one player takes three turns and the other two, but a player taking extra turns may affect this. Team tournaments featuring multiple players playing together (such as Two-Headed Giant) use three turns instead of five.

So you get your current turn, plus five additional, regardless of whose turn it is or how those turns are generated. In this case, I'd argue that the turn in a sub-game is still a turn. Therefore, you get five total turns, regardless of how far down the rabbit hole you've gone.



This does introduce a problem with the possibility of playing Shahrazad on turn one of each subgame thus never actually hitting the end of any turns. However, this is addressed by the next clause:

Quote
Once time is called, no new games should begin.

Is a subgame considered a game? If so, then you can't start a new sub-game once time has been called so you will eventually win, lose, naturally draw, or run out of turns.

If a subgame is not considered a game... well, I can't imagine not considering it a game, so I won't go into it.

edit:

To actually answer your question, not just talk about Shahrazad and extra turns...
If players are in extra turns, what happens when you cast Shahrazad?  How do you resolve it?

Given my second above point and the fact that the rules of the tournament are above the rules of the game, resolving Shahrazad would force you to do something that is against the rules of the tournament and should be punished in the same way as taking too many extra turns.

The point you make about "no new games beginning" would not apply here, as best I can tell. You are still, on some level, in the original game.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2015, 03:25:05 pm »

When shahrazad was legal any turns taken in the sub game counted as part of the 5 turns.


If Sharazad is cast within extra turns, do you begin the subgame? 
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Khahan
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2015, 09:02:27 pm »

We had this at a bluebell tournament. It was ruled that you do everything you can. So the sub-game began. But the Shar was cast on turn 2 of extra turns. So the sub-game's first turn was the 3rd turn of extra turns.
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Clariax
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2015, 07:58:51 am »

We had this at a bluebell tournament. It was ruled that you do everything you can. So the sub-game began. But the Shar was cast on turn 2 of extra turns. So the sub-game's first turn was the 3rd turn of extra turns.


This is exactly how it worked when shahrazad was legal.
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Aaron Cutler
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