|
Protoaddict
|
 |
« on: December 14, 2015, 11:34:22 am » |
|
 I think this may be one of the most important common lands to come out in forever. It is a rainbow land that does not cost any life and can work around a number of interesting strategies or things that try to stop it, plus it is a reliable source of pure colorless if needed. I mean the thing that comes to mind right away is stasis, but it could see play in any number of lists including fastbond strategies. It circumvents the downside on cards that put lands into play tapped as well. I think this will wind up being a key piece in some strategy down the line. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 11:37:48 am » |
|
Well... let's not get too excited. it's a strictly worse Tendo Ice Bridge, isn't it?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
CHA1N5
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 345
bluh
|
|
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 12:21:21 pm » |
|
It's a land that produces mana under Orb of Dreams and similar effects.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Protoaddict
|
|
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 12:28:18 pm » |
|
Root Maze was what I was thinking truth be told. It cannot be used for Stasis payments because of the timing of it all, but unlike city of brass lands it can produce colorless if there are any relevant cards in the next set as well.
It is also a step back towards powerful rainbow lands being printed in standard magic, which I think is great anyway because it can open up other formats.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
xouman
|
|
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 12:33:24 pm » |
|
Well... let's not get too excited. it's a strictly worse Tendo Ice Bridge, isn't it?
Well, with Amulet of vigor in play this is better, but I agree that it's worse than Tendo Ice Bridge, and that cards sees 0 play. I have to confess that I found this card pretty interesting, but I don't think this is playable in vintage. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2015, 05:47:22 pm » |
|
Even with Amulet, it feels like all you really get out of the deal is to play Amulet for free. (It generates the 1 additional colorless mana you spent to pay Amulet.) It doesn't interact as absurdly with Amulet as the Ravnica bounce-lands do, but it's also not as useless / bad by itself as the Ravnica bounce-lands are.
So, yeah, I guess you put these cards into a Modern deck that wants to play game with Amulet? I dunno, I don't see much Vintage application here unless you've got a game-winning combo, somehow.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Chubby Rain
|
|
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2015, 09:05:46 pm » |
|
I know I just started a thread on a 7cc Blue Flier, but I really struggle to see a circumstance in which I would play this in Vintage (or another constructed format with a reasonable amount of color fixing). Tendo is a reasonable comparison but the fact I can run out Tendo an tap for either colorless or colored mana the first turn is huge. With this card, I can foresee awkward situations in which I need to make a land drop to cast a spell on curve but do not need the color-fixing ability. The next turn, I draw a colored card I would like to cast but am now unable to. The limited control I have over when this card produces colorless is its biggest drawback (that and there are many better options in most formats). Even with Amulet, it feels like all you really get out of the deal is to play Amulet for free. (It generates the 1 additional colorless mana you spent to pay Amulet.) It doesn't interact as absurdly with Amulet as the Ravnica bounce-lands do, but it's also not as useless / bad by itself as the Ravnica bounce-lands are.
So, yeah, I guess you put these cards into a Modern deck that wants to play game with Amulet? I dunno, I don't see much Vintage application here unless you've got a game-winning combo, somehow.
Off topic but the Karoos are some of the most broken lands ever printed - they dominated Ravnica block limited and continue to be high picks in almost every cube format I played (I would routinely first pick them in the most recent Legendary Cube on MTGO). They naturally generate card advantage, albeit in exchange for tempo, and are synergistic with several of the lands in the Amulet deck, including Tendo Ice Bridge, Tolaria West, and that stupid Germ land that I used to play back in Standard Polymorph when Jace, TMS was dominating Standard. I feel even in the Modern Amulet deck this card is not where you want to be. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
|
|
|
|
Sloth
|
|
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 03:19:30 am » |
|
I know I just started a thread on a 7cc Blue Flier, but I really struggle to see a circumstance in which I would play this in Vintage (or another constructed format with a reasonable amount of color fixing). Tendo is a reasonable comparison but the fact I can run out Tendo an tap for either colorless or colored mana the first turn is huge. With this card, I can foresee awkward situations in which I need to make a land drop to cast a spell on curve but do not need the color-fixing ability. The next turn, I draw a colored card I would like to cast but am now unable to. The limited control I have over when this card produces colorless is its biggest drawback (that and there are many better options in most formats). No existing decks wants them, but this land has serious combo potential. Not only the mentioned Root Maze, Orb of Dreams and Amulet of Vigor, but there are lots of cards that put lands from the library onto the battlefield tapped like Primeval Titan and Scapeshift. There probably isn't a combo worthy of vintage yet, but the ability to fetch something that immediately generates mana, brings them closer to "win on the spot" with the right mix of lands. Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage doesn't work, but you get the idea. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Chubby Rain
|
|
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 11:24:31 am » |
|
No existing decks wants them, but this land has serious combo potential. Not only the mentioned Root Maze, Orb of Dreams and Amulet of Vigor, but there are lots of cards that put lands from the library onto the battlefield tapped like Primeval Titan and Scapeshift. There probably isn't a combo worthy of vintage yet, but the ability to fetch something that immediately generates mana, brings them closer to "win on the spot" with the right mix of lands. Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage doesn't work, but you get the idea. [/quote] When you are building combo decks, you have to take into consideration the power of the individual pieces, the ease of assembling the combo, and the payoff the combo. Time Vault - Key takes an indefinite number of turns. Auriok Salvagers - Black Lotus generates an arbitrarily large amount of mana. Thespian Stage + Dark Depths should win the game while being uncounterable and otherwise difficult to interact with. Voltaic Key and Time Vault both have uses by themselves (if you haven't untap a Time Vault, you have missed a very powerful line of play in certain match ups). Black Lotus is one of the best cards in the game and Auriok Salvagers recurring EEs and other Trinkets allowed Brian Kelly to beat Mastriano at Vintage Champs. Thespian Stage's clone ability can be relevant in most decks that run it, but Dark Depths is not very useful (though the payoff more than justifies it). The point I'm trying to make is that while the effect is unique, Crumbling Vestige itself is very bad outside of some combo and no combo exists now that adequately rewards a player for including this bad card. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
|
|
|
|
Protoaddict
|
|
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 01:00:37 pm » |
|
Let's stop calling the the card bad. I think you can say subpar when evaluating the card in a void, but not bad. And there are bad cards that see play in combo style decks. Dark depths is a bad card, in that it is a land slot that does not produce mana at all, where as stage is a subpar card in that outside of the combo it is just a colorless land. This card can tap for mana outside of a combo, so it is at least ok on its own.
The point is at least, it is a new and novel effect that has combo potential, so it is at least worth taking note. Certainly this card will see play in Modern Amulet bloom decks and likely as a 4 of. I do not suspect that bloom decks are going to be all the rage in vintage or anything like that, but root maze has always been a fringe card that has real blowout potential in vintage and this plays really well with it, so I would at least keep an eye out.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Chubby Rain
|
|
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 02:34:28 pm » |
|
Let's stop calling the the card bad. I think you can say subpar when evaluating the card in a void, but not bad. And there are bad cards that see play in combo style decks. Dark depths is a bad card, in that it is a land slot that does not produce mana at all, where as stage is a subpar card in that outside of the combo it is just a colorless land. This card can tap for mana outside of a combo, so it is at least ok on its own.
The point is at least, it is a new and novel effect that has combo potential, so it is at least worth taking note. Certainly this card will see play in Modern Amulet bloom decks and likely as a 4 of. I do not suspect that bloom decks are going to be all the rage in vintage or anything like that, but root maze has always been a fringe card that has real blowout potential in vintage and this plays really well with it, so I would at least keep an eye out.
Well, it's guess it's not Anticipate - a strictly inferior version of a card that already does not see significant Vintage play. But apparently that was worth starting a thread over... Seriously, I used the term 'bad' because I was lazy and largely apathetic about this card. Personally, I don't care whether you call it 'bad', 'sub par', or 'a steaming pile of bug infested feces baking in the sun on a lazy summer day'. What I would like is better rationale than "this is a unique effect" and "some modern decks currently play cards kind of like this". For instance if you wanted to discuss the Root Maze Fish decks from 5 years ago, how this card could be beneficial in that build, and how that build would stack up in the current metagame, I believe that would be a relevant discussion in this forum. As for its playability in Modern Amulet, maybe Nick can make a forum for you and The White Dragon to discuss such issues... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
|
|
|
|
TheWhiteDragon
|
|
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2015, 05:36:25 pm » |
|
As for its playability in Modern Amulet, maybe Nick can make a forum for you and The White Dragon to discuss such issues...
That would be awesome. Then we'd have more things to talk about other than "How mentor decks can fight storm" or "what sideboard slots are best vs Workshop and Dredge"...you know, like every other vintage thread. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath |
|
|
|
Chubby Rain
|
|
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 07:12:37 pm » |
|
As for its playability in Modern Amulet, maybe Nick can make a forum for you and The White Dragon to discuss such issues...
That would be awesome. Then we'd have more things to talk about other than "How mentor decks can fight storm" or "what sideboard slots are best vs Workshop and Dredge"...you know, like every other vintage thread. Yes, I look forward to riveting topics such as "Please, Wizards, don't ban the deck I just foiled out," "Do I want to lose to Burn, Infect, Affinity, or Tron today?", "The Victims of Amulet/Goyro's Vengeance support group", "Is the new Lantern Control deck more or less painful to lose to compared to Eggs?" and "Judge Question: Does Grafdigger's Cage stop Living End? (For the thousandth time, no...)". |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
|
|
|
|
xouman
|
|
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2015, 02:59:44 am » |
|
Guys, don't continue with that  I like talking about really fringe, or even bad cards/strategies. I do that all the time, and it's ok for me. Damn, I thought lorescale coatl was going to be psychatog 2.0 and that nivmagus elemental would break vintage in pieces. But this is a vintage forum, so we should talk about cards from a vintage perspective. Matt is right that if we are going to talk from a modern point of view (although I see no problem to make small references), this is not the place. Maybe modern has lots of adepts here, and it's ok, but then we have a special thread called "Other formats". All opinions are respectable, just keep a healthy debate |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 2172
|
|
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2015, 11:23:59 am » |
|
You're right, Xouman. Let's talk Vintage.
We can start by prohibiting any more talk about this card unless someone is willing to post RootMaze.dec.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
serracollector
|
 |
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2015, 01:39:02 pm » |
|
Maybe something with Rootmaze and Lotus Cobra?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
|
|
|
|
