Dredge in 2016

[Bips]

So going into 2016, i noticed a few things last month(s):

1) Aggro Shops put MUD back on the map.
2) TPS is back.
3) U(g) Belcher is rising in popularity.
4) Since all of the above happened, the format has become faster. Therefor I see more Pyromancer and less Mentor.
5) Dredge is played less.

To start with 5); this means more people will run less graveyard hate in their sideboards.

This is a great time to play Dredge, if tuned well...

I think 2) can be handled with Leyline of the Void. It shuts off Dark Petition and Yawgmoth's Will. It's also still a great card in the mirror.
To be on the safe side AND help with 3), I think I want Leyline of Sanctity as well.

4) Is actualy a good thing for Dredge, since 1/1's are smaller than Dredge's 2/2 Zombies.

This leaves me with 1), wich is easily handled by Serenity and Ingot Chewer.

The list I will be playing the next few months will look like this:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Mana Confluence
3 Petrified Field
4 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Bloodghast
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder

//sideboard
4 Barbarian Ring
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Riftstone Portal
3 Serenity
3 Wispmare

I had to make room for 4 Leyline of Sanctity, that's why I don't run the full Thug/Salavge-Ichorid package, nor the full 4 Petrified Field.

I'm not a fan of Nature's Claim, since it loses to Mental Misstep. I don't want to run Misstep myself, but rather have more impactfull cards.
Setenity helps against a big MUD board AND multiple hate cards on the board (Rest in Peace + Grafdigger's Cage comes to mind).

Against Oath, I think Leyline of Sanctity is better since it can't be Abrupt Decay'ed or countered, and shut's off Oath T1 on the draw as well.

Barbarian Ring is just great against Containment Priest and Yixlid Jailer, and helps against Pyromancer (and to some merit Mentor).

I didn't want to run fewer than 3 Petrified Field, but couldn't make room for it in the main.

I ran Sun Titan and 1-2 Fatesticher for speed, but 1 or 2 Leyline buyes enough time against TPS and Belcher to still win fast enough. This also gave me the option to drop 1 Mana Confluence and add a Riftstone Portal. It really helps to more reliably cast Wispmare and Serenity.

Enjoy your New Years Eve and may all your opening 7s contain a Bazaar (and a Leyline) in 2016!


EDIT: After some testing, I made a minor adjustmenst. I switched Riftstone Portal and the SB Petrifield Field.

[msg67183]

List looks sweet man! It's very close to mine except I ran 3 Dread Return and Targets, added Ashen Rider for utility against things like Tinker Blightsteel, Tabernacle etc. I may have to test this list out.

[Varal]

Leyline of the Void and Petrified Field are a real beatings for aggro MUD. Aggro MUD was the better Shop decks for most of 2015.

[UndeadBus]

I agree with your conclusions about 2016 with the only exception being about mentor. I actually think mentor I a faster deck even though the card itself comes down a turn later. Also because I am playing with serenity I've put 4 Unmask in the main instead of leyline. It's done a lot of work for me in a variety of matches. Also against, Pyro, mentor, and shops running hangarback, leyline doesn't protect bridges from tokens dying which is more relevant with aggro shops coming back.

[Bips]

Mentor coming down a turn later is a big deal vs a deck that can go T2/3 imo.

[UndeadBus]

Your absolutely right in that coming down a turn later is a big deal but the average time to win the game once one of those creatures has resolved is shorter for mentor than pyromancer. Also white hate is considerably more powerful and I don't know that people will want to give that up.

[Bips]

Agreed!
That's why I see a lot of UWR Pyromancer.
But I didn't say Mentor was away, I just see more and more Pyromancers (returning).

[inkmothnexus]

Also against, Pyro, mentor, and shops running hangarback, leyline doesn't protect bridges from tokens dying which is more relevant with aggro shops coming back.

it does protect against hangarback because the hangarback never gets a trigger that makes tokens. the occasional batterskull is all shops has to break bridges through a leyline, aside from less typical stuff like battlesphere or precursor golem.

[desolutionist]

Isn't Serenity too expensive of a card to use against Workshops?  2 is a lot of mana for a dredge deck; and if they get out a Sphere and some Wastelands, it will never be cast.

[inkmothnexus]

Isn't Serenity too expensive of a card to use against Workshops?  2 is a lot of mana for a dredge deck; and if they get out a Sphere and some Wastelands, it will never be cast.

serenity is just disgusting against shops. if shops has the trifecta of hate+pressure+mana denial at the same time you're probably dead regardless of what you play, but when they don't have pressure and they're just playing out cages, crypts and spheres a serenity eventually gets cast and takes everything. the first wasteland is also rarely hitting a mana source. when they don't have hate they're just dead, and when they don't have mana denial then 2 mana isn't that much.

[vaughnbros]

Isn't Serenity too expensive of a card to use against Workshops?  2 is a lot of mana for a dredge deck; and if they get out a Sphere and some Wastelands, it will never be cast.

serenity is just disgusting against shops. if shops has the trifecta of hate+pressure+mana denial at the same time you're probably dead regardless of what you play, but when they don't have pressure and they're just playing out cages, crypts and spheres a serenity eventually gets cast and takes everything. the first wasteland is also rarely hitting a mana source. when they don't have hate they're just dead, and when they don't have mana denial then 2 mana isn't that much.

Dredge decks have increased their mana counts in the past year or so.  The standard build has Barbarian Ring, Petrified Field, and Dakmors in addition to the normal 5c lands it used to run.  Dredge frankly needs to play Serenity now with Shops decks playing main deck nuisances, like Ravager and Triskelion, in addition to their sideboard hate.

[desolutionist]

So here's another question:

Since Chalice has been restricted, could Kobolds/Clamp now be viable in a Dredge list?  Narcomoeba is basically just a free creature; Bloodghast and Ichorid are free creatures, and Basking Rootwalla is a free creature.  What if we were to remove the conditional part of "free" and played creatures that actually just cost 0?

Memnite?

[TheBrassMan]

But Narcomoeba is better than free, isn't it? Memnite is a 1/1 that costs 0 mana and a draw step, but Narco costs around 1/5th of draw step. I'm not sure they fill similar roles.  Keep in mind I'm saying this as someone who is literally playing a Memnite + Skullclamp deck in vintage right now.

[vaughnbros]

So here's another question:

Since Chalice has been restricted, could Kobolds/Clamp now be viable in a Dredge list?  Narcomoeba is basically just a free creature; Bloodghast and Ichorid are free creatures, and Basking Rootwalla is a free creature.  What if we were to remove the conditional part of "free" and played creatures that actually just cost 0?

Memnite?

Kobolds and clamp certainly have a condition.  You have to draw them.

[inkmothnexus]

So here's another question:

Since Chalice has been restricted, could Kobolds/Clamp now be viable in a Dredge list?  Narcomoeba is basically just a free creature; Bloodghast and Ichorid are free creatures, and Basking Rootwalla is a free creature.  What if we were to remove the conditional part of "free" and played creatures that actually just cost 0?

Memnite?

they cost a card as opposed to somewhere between a quarter and a sixth of a card.
also, if we were doing this, dryad arbor is better, as it triggers bloodghast. people have messed around with 4x arbor 4x salvage with ghast in 'manaless' dredge in legacy before.

[vaughnbros]

they cost a card as opposed to somewhere between a quarter and a sixth of a card.
also, if we were doing this, dryad arbor is better, as it triggers bloodghast. people have messed around with 4x arbor 4x salvage with ghast in 'manaless' dredge in legacy before.

Dryad arbor was a standard card in the old extended version of dredge.  I tried it in Vintage once, but honestly found it to unreliable game 1, and unnecessary game 2/3. 

Being able to play the creature from the graveyard makes it so much better in this deck, and there are actually a lot of options for creatures from the graveyard even beyond the big 3.  Both fatestitcher and Lingering Souls are definitely playable.

[The Atog Lord]

Dryad arbor was a staple of the old Vintage version of Dredge. That was, however, before the current version of the deck arrived.

[desolutionist]

I'm not completely convinced that the current version is the only version.  There are more than three tier one versions of the deck (Traditional, Pitch, various transformative, and combinations)  There also must be some versions that can exist that have not been discovered yet.  I've been interested in a "dredge" deck that is more capable of attacking without use of the graveyard.

Years ago, Meadbert came out with Manaless/Serum Powder Dredge and there really hasn't been too much deviation beyond that shell.  I think a form of dredge could exist that doesn't necessarily need to mulligan to Bazaar every time and could crutch on some control elements to bypass fast combo decks.

I played in an Extended PTQ with Dredge (Pre-Bridge/Narco) and I thought my build was extremely unique.  Most versions at that time relied on Careful Study, Tolarian Winds, and Zombie Infestation.  My build just wanted to play a turn 1 Wild Mongrel/Zombie Infestation and then kill as quickly as possibly by attacking.  I didn't need to dredge to win, but it was there to put me over the top.

[vaughnbros]

Years ago, Meadbert came out with Manaless/Serum Powder Dredge and there really hasn't been too much deviation beyond that shell.  I think a form of dredge could exist that doesn't necessarily need to mulligan to Bazaar every time and could crutch on some control elements to bypass fast combo decks.

I'd love to work with you on this 😃

I have a another build that I think is tier that revolves around playing a more robust mana base and Life from the Loam, and thus can play the CA war better than ever.  I just have a few sideboard cards to work out and I'll probably be writing a primer/article.

In general most of my builds function just as you are saying post-board (and I take out the serum powders).  I could play them preboarded with an actual sideboard, but Storm's resurgence and the mirror match will often make that a worse decision than playing powders.  Since you then need to play dedicated Dredge and Storm hate.

I've also been working on trying to get a powderless version to be servicible (very raw right now).  I'm going the way of Expedition map, and Hermit Druid, but I could see potential in a list featuring Draw 7's, and other spells that kill you very quickly.  Im finding the biggest advantage of no powder is I don't have to worry about exiling something.

[desolutionist]

Even though I think it's the best deck, I haven't been playing any Dredge in events lately.  My thought is that the more people playing Dredge and doing well with it, the more people will be prepared for it come Champs.  The deck's biggest strength is that a lot of people don't play against it regularly, so their plans aren't finely tuned.  I tried to talk Josh Potucek out of playing Dredge this past weekend for that reason; he didn't listen and he won.  People's sideboards just gained +1 Dredge hate.

Does anyone else feel the way I do about saving Dredge for the big events?

[gkraigher]

I think the biggest oversight with Dredge right now is not playing Griselbrand in a package with Dragonlord Kolaghan.  

Before, Dredge could be slow, because it had enough disruption with Cabal Therapy, but if the format is faster, then why not just get faster yourself.  If you can dread return griselbrand, you almost always win on the spot.  

It can also be exiled to Ichorid.  

I think it's the only way the deck can get back into the fold, along with some sort of Dark Depths package in the board.  

[UndeadBus]

Even though I think it's the best deck, I haven't been playing any Dredge in events lately.  My thought is that the more people playing Dredge and doing well with it, the more people will be prepared for it come Champs.  The deck's biggest strength is that a lot of people don't play against it regularly, so their plans aren't finely tuned.  I tried to talk Josh Potucek out of playing Dredge this past weekend for that reason; he didn't listen and he won.  People's sideboards just gained +1 Dredge hate.

Does anyone else feel the way I do about saving Dredge for the big events?

I can see where you are coming from and I agree to a certain extent about larger events. Sullivan won the NYSE last year so I think the cat is out of the bag permanently now but that's just my opinion. One thing I have seen a lot of is that people are actually lowering the amount of dredge hate in favor of having more variety of kinds of hate. Decks that routinely played 4x cage plus 3x priest have turned into 2 rest in peace 2 cage 2priest, 1 needle. I think that is an interesting trend that should be taken into account when boarding.

[UndeadBus]

I think the biggest oversight with Dredge right now is not playing Griselbrand in a package with Dragonlord Kolaghan.  

Before, Dredge could be slow, because it had enough disruption with Cabal Therapy, but if the format is faster, then why not just get faster yourself.  If you can dread return griselbrand, you almost always win on the spot.  

It can also be exiled to Ichorid.  

I think it's the only way the deck can get back into the fold, along with some sort of Dark Depths package in the board.  

A few things came to mind when I read this. One is that I've never heard of dredge described as slow, at least the current iteration of dredge. I think aside from the belcher decks dredge is still one of the fastest in the format. I know I used to play a fatestitcher because I thought it gave me some extra speed vs the delver decks when 4x cruise and dig were in the format. Also the dread return usually wins the game regardless of what is actually coming back in game 1 unless you are playing against exactly another combo deck and they rip something fierce off the top. I have found the target of the dread return actually can matter more in games 2-3 than in game one as it tends to be a hoser for the particular match up (Ingot chewers/ashen rider vs shops or elesh norn vs delver/mentor decks). That being said I don't know what Grislebrand offers you in most post board games over ashen rider or elesh norn, especially if you are using a transition board plan over the usual anti hate.

[gkraigher]

That being said I don't know what Grislebrand offers you in most post board games over ashen rider or elesh norn, especially if you are using a transition board plan over the usual anti hate.

You play 1 Griselbrand maindeck so that you win on turn 2 instead of turn 3.  That alone improves your matches to combo decks.

[Bips]

I can see where you are coming from and I agree to a certain extent about larger events. Sullivan won the NYSE last year so I think the cat is out of the bag permanently now but that's just my opinion. One thing I have seen a lot of is that people are actually lowering the amount of dredge hate in favor of having more variety of kinds of hate. Decks that routinely played 4x cage plus 3x priest have turned into 2 rest in peace 2 cage 2priest, 1 needle. I think that is an interesting trend that should be taken into account when boarding.

This is the exact readon why i love Serenity so much right now. Even if they go Cage, RiP AND Needle.

On the topic of Dredge being too slow, i've tried Sun Titan and Fatestitcher. Sun Titan is not in the yard when i want/need it (probably the same with a one-off Griseldaddy). Fatestitcher is a matter of opinion. If I want to play it, i would like at least 2 (see Sun Titan). But i would rather have the consisticy this deck has now.
Going fast only matters against DPS and Belcher. But they can kill you on T1 or T2 anyways. If we're on the draw, making the deck go faster is moot.
Hence i play maindeck (free) hate for them in the form of Leyline. Just give them a speedbumb for 1/2/3 turns. It's all Dredge needs to win.

Not playing Dredge is wrong imho. You want to test diffrent match-ups. The Meta is still in flux, so get your Bazaars and test the diffrent new and old lists.
A well prepared Vintageplayer will always pack enough Dredge hate. Especially going to a non-proxie event!
I for one would like to know if i can beat a player through maximum hate. It gets you well prepared for all the rounds in a tournament.

Just my $0.02

[vaughnbros]

I find often storm can kill you by turn 2.  And it's very difficult to build dredge to be consistently faster than turn 3.  We are reliant on either having opening hand disruption and/or hitting a bunch of therapies on our first turn dredging.  In the latter we can still easily lose to the die roll, or a top deck.  Then there are the storm decks boarding in multiple copies of Leyline/Rav trap, which are absolutely brutal if you are trying to just race them.  I don't advocate the strategy.

[UndeadBus]

I think the danger of being too slow for tps or Belcher is balanced by the fact that we crush almost every other deck in the format. In some cases it's not even close. I know a few shops players that pack 10+ pieces of dedicated dredge hate in their board because they are convinced they cannot beat the deck and even some oath players who have put 8+ pieces in their board.

[vaughnbros]

I think the danger of being too slow for tps or Belcher is balanced by the fact that we crush almost every other deck in the format. In some cases it's not even close. I know a few shops players that pack 10+ pieces of dedicated dredge hate in their board because they are convinced they cannot beat the deck and even some oath players who have put 8+ pieces in their board.

There are a number of people who don't understand how to play/board against dredge and often they try to compensate by adding more hate pieces.  Rarely does this actually solve the problem they are encountering though.  Frankly if decks want to continue to ignore the deck game 1, it will always be a good deck choice given that you properly metagame.

[desolutionist]

One thing I've come to realize is that while the transformational board (Dark Depths) makes perfect sense in theory, the reality is that you're putting yourself on a slower clock in a lot of games in which the opponent can't deal with dredge anyway.  I don't think Dredge actually loses too many games to dredge hate; I think the bulk of losses come from anomalies such as turn 1 Vault/Key.

[vaughnbros]

One thing I've come to realize is that while the transformational board (Dark Depths) makes perfect sense in theory, the reality is that you're putting yourself on a slower clock in a lot of games in which the opponent can't deal with dredge anyway.  I don't think Dredge actually loses too many games to dredge hate; I think the bulk of losses come from anomalies such as turn 1 Vault/Key.

I have a lot of wins under my belt from it working in practice.  Depths and Witch combo are both turn 5 kills if we don't have any acceleration.  This is typically fine especially if we are playing disruption. 

If we want to talk about the cause for most losses, I'd point to mulliganing to bazaar.  If I could keep a grip of 7 with bazaar every game I would probably never lose a match.  This is simply not going to be the case though.  By transforming we are not only reducing our dependency on our GY, but reducing our dependency on Bazaar.