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Author Topic: [OGW] Thought-Knot Seer  (Read 8640 times)
xouman
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« on: January 06, 2016, 03:15:17 pm »




Thought-Knot Seer
3<>
Creature - Eldrazi
(C represents colorless mana)

When Thought-Knot Seer enters the battlefield, target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it and exile that card.

When Thought-Knot Seer leaves the battlefield, target opponent draws a card.

illus. Svetlin Velinov # 9/184
C&D SRC
4/4



I understand this is not playable with workshop, otherwise it would be nuts.  4/4 with a duress imprinted for 4CC is the closest I have seen to Lodestone. Even with something as restoration angel (have I heard eldrazi displacer?) it can be nice.

But in MUD it's a fine beater and it takes the bomb, the acceleration, the hate... for our play. It deserves a try imho.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 04:23:31 pm »

Here is the Modern list I am working on with this card:

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Blight Herder
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Oblvion Sower
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Dismember
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil

2 Sea Gate Wreckage
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Cavern of Souls
8 Swamp

notable sideboard cards:
cranial extraction/memorcide
damnation
all is dust

I am showing you this list because many of these cards are already very good in Vintage.  You also get upgrades on the colorless mana spots, Ghost Quarters become Wastelands, you get to add ancient tomb.  The strategy of ramping up with oblvion sower into ulamgog/kozilek takes a hit and is, most likely, not playable.  But the direction of this deck still seems acheivable in Legacy/Vintage.  

cards like :

are pretty bad in Modern, but actually playable in Vintage.  

The point is, I think this deck has a chance...I think it makes a good case for a great budget deck, at the very minimum.  And I think Thought-Knot Seer is the one card in particular that puts it on the map.  

I really love the idea of a deck that is actively attacking graveyard cards in the format, to find other benefits later.  It works against most decks, while outright decimating some of the graveyard strategies to begin with.  It would be nice to see a deck rise to power that actively attacks graveyard strategies. 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 04:30:41 pm by gkraigher » Logged
gkraigher
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 11:22:50 am »

sorry, I didn't have a lot of time yesterday to follow up with a Vintage decklist.  I think that Black is still the direction of the deck, but it could be any color.  (This is unpowered except for imperial seal)

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 wasteland strangler
4 blight herder
4 bearer of silence
4 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal

1 eye of ugin
4 ancient tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple 
4 Wasteland
1 strip mine
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

This deck still has 8 open slots.  You could run the high end stuff of Kozilek the great distortion or Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger.  You could run Dark Confidant and keep a low curve.  You could play some Dark Depths package.  You could play Ritual and Hymn to tourach/Mind Twist.  You could play any other color of your choosing.  

Unfortunately, Leyline of the Void does not interact with the Eldrazi cards.  Even though you do get cards in the exile zone, you can never put them in the graveyard so the trigger never resolves.  

Also, does anyone know, but I don't believe you can use the mana from Eldrazi Temple's second ability on the triggered ability of bearer of silence.  But I would like a clarification. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:30:28 am by gkraigher » Logged
cutlex
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 12:24:14 pm »

Processors work just fine with Leyline of the Void:

117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
Example: You control Standstill, an enchantment that says “When a player casts a spell, sacrifice Standstill. If you do, each of that player’s opponents draws three cards.” A spell is cast, causing Standstill’s ability to trigger. Then an ability is activated that exiles Standstill. When Standstill’s ability resolves, you’re unable to pay the “sacrifice Standstill” cost. No player will draw cards.
Example: Your opponent has cast Gather Specimens, a spell that says “If a creature would enter the battlefield under an opponent’s control this turn, it enters the battlefield under your control instead.” You control a face-down Dermoplasm, a creature with morph that says “When Dermoplasm is turned face up, you may put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield face up. If you do, return Dermoplasm to its owner’s hand.” You turn Dermoplasm face up, and you choose to put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield. Due to Gather Specimens, it enters the battlefield under your opponent’s control instead of yours. However, since you chose to pay the cost, Dermoplasm is still returned to its owner’s hand.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 12:56:35 pm »

Leyline of the Void prevents you from completly the first trigger.  Read the cards again

When Wasteland Strangler enters the battlefield, you may put a card an opponent owns from exile into that player's graveyard. If you do, target creature gets -3/-3 until end of turn.  

You cannot put a card an opponent owns from exile into that player's graveyard because leyline of the void replaces the card going to the graveyard and exiles it (from exile).  Because you have not completly the first clause, you do not get to give target creature -3/-3.  It's nearly idential to your standstill example. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 12:59:14 pm by gkraigher » Logged
cutlex
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 06:49:29 pm »

http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/129667561469/do-the-eldrazi-processors-have-infinite-cards-to

The ability asks that you move a card from exile to the graveyard, which you do. The Leyline replacement ability then kicks in, and exiles the card instead. The end result: a new object (though the same card) in exile, and your cost is paid. It doesn't care whether the card actually ends up in the graveyard, just that there was a card try to put there. This is consistent with Standstill (it needs the Standstill to still be there to be sacrificed).

The only major restriction is that you can't use the same card twice for the same ability, i.e. if your opponent only has a single basic land in the Exile zone, you can't pay for Blight Herder's ability. You could, however, use Void Attendant's ability as many times as you have mana for.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=401819
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=402092

These Leyline effects could make your deck a lot better, if you want to go after a focused graveyard-hate angle.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 06:52:34 pm by cutlex » Logged
gkraigher
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 07:09:30 pm »

Yeah, I would love to go the leyline route.  Because then you get helm of obedience as a win con
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 07:14:52 pm »

Do we have any Eldrazi that go infinite with Leyline? 

Seems like this angle would work with that 1 cc Urza's Saga thing, too.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2016, 01:34:50 pm »

watching the Starcity games open, one of the commentators made a good point about this card. 

It's very similar to Vendilion Clique.  When you cast it, you get to exile your opponents best non-land card and replace it with a random card.  When you opponent is hellbent, then the card becomes a small liability when it dies because you get nothing and give them a card.  But in every other sitution, the card is better than Vendilion Clique when cast on your turn.  Clique having flash is extremly relevant. 

Still, this card is a colorless Vendilion Clique for a lot of intents and purposes. 
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Wagner
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2016, 02:46:10 pm »

Clique is very used during the opponent's draw step though, and can be bounced with Karakas, it's say it's still quite behind it.

Another thing to note for EDH players, the opponent you take the card from can be a different opponent you give a card to later.

It's still a cheap fatty with good disruption, it will see play in other formats for sure, but maybe not Vintage.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2016, 03:39:36 pm »

Vendilion Clique is a truly special magic card.  Cross format all star.  Whenever a card can be compared to a card that great, it has enormous potential. 
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 10:45:32 pm »

It's only similar to clique if it's removed immediately.  While it remains on the table it's generated a true 2 for 1.

The card is definitely insanely powerful, and it should at least see fringe play in something like White Trash.  It's mana cost is high enough to potentially price it out of the mainstream of Vintage though.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 01:29:25 am »

It's only similar to clique if it's removed immediately.  While it remains on the table it's generated a true 2 for 1.

The card is definitely insanely powerful, and it should at least see fringe play in something like White Trash.  It's mana cost is high enough to potentially price it out of the mainstream of Vintage though.

"insanely powerful?" 

Look, I think they are undercosting the "colorless" cards the same way they undercosted the hybrid mana cards when they printed them.  Still, 4 mana for a 4/4 Sin Collector that might let them draw a card eventually isn't what I'd call "insane..."
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2016, 01:46:50 am »

This card is too slow. Isn't mesmeric fiend/ tidehollow sculler better?
Dont get me wrong, Thought-knot seer is a good card but will see zero in any top 8s after its release. Maybe in a dedicated Eldrazi deck but not otherwise.
My two cents...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 01:51:56 am by Ten-Ten » Logged

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gkraigher
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2016, 02:29:23 am »

Quote
Still, 4 mana for a 4/4 Sin Collector that might let them draw a card eventually isn't what I'd call "insane..."

That would be true if cards like Ancient Tomb, Eldrazi Temple, City of Traitors, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt were not also in the format.  

Couple that with the fact that most of the removal currently being played is Aburpt Decay, Lightning Bolt, and Artifact destruction.  

What you are saying is a similar criticism to Lodestone Golem.  It costs 4 mana.  Except, there are a lot of specific accelerators (namely Ancient Tomb and Mishra's Workshop) that power it out early.  The beauty of this card is that it doesn't have to come down on turn 1.  Coming down on turns 2-3 is still extremly powerful, and drawing it later in the game is still extremly powerful.  I can easily see this card, being cast off Cavern of Souls, ripping the game wide open on turns 2-3. 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 02:38:39 am by gkraigher » Logged
MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2016, 02:35:17 am »

Quote
Still, 4 mana for a 4/4 Sin Collector that might let them draw a card eventually isn't what I'd call "insane..."

That would be true if cards like Ancient Tomb, Eldrazi Temple, City of Traitors, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt were not also in the format. 

If we're talking Modern, then yeah, you get some pretty sick lines like:

T1: Urbog, Thoughtseize
T2: Eye of Ugin (tap Urborg and Eye for B, Ugin reduces cost by 2), Some black Eldrazi thing
T3: Colorless land, Thought-Knot plus something else.

Which is legitimately insane.

Vintage, though?  Look, it's better than Sin Collector because you don't have to take the removal if you don't want to.  (In that they cannot use the removal to get the discarded card back if  you don't take it.)  But it seems way too slow to play the disruption game unless you're using Eldrazi lands.  As for using those, I think we need a few more sets like Oath of the Gatewatch before Eldrazi tribal breaks into Vintage. 

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vaughnbros
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2016, 11:32:05 am »

Sin Collector?  This would be like comparing Lodestone Golem to Grand Arbiter Augustine IV.  As is the usual course we compare to existing cards because that's the best we can do, the closest for this is Clique.  The difference in abilities is Flash vs Temporary raw card advantage.  The difference in bodies is 4/4 vs 3/1 flying.  How many creatures/removal in Vintage can beat a 4/4 with CMC of 4?  It seems that Late Game shops creatures and Monk are the only creatures and Swords/Path are the only good removal.  Now considering it's a consistent 2/3 drop that could be played on turn 1 off lotus if you don't think that's a very powerful card I'm not sure what is.  This thing is the definition of power creep.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:35:09 am by vaughnbros » Logged
MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2016, 12:37:17 pm »

Debating which existing card is "most like" a new card is a great way to evaluate them.  While this isn't Sin Collector, and it's not Clique, it's far closer to the former than the latter.  Lemme explain more what I mean.

Clique flashes in at the end of the turn or even during your opponent's draw step.  It can be used to dig for answers, or to disrupt an opponent, or to just get information and then do nothing when it ETB.  It also flies and this usually means it's not chumped.  Clique's versatility of purpose and timing fill many roles, and it's an all-star as a result.

Knot Seer doesn't come close to that.  It doesn't have Flash, so you can't cast him during the end step or draw step, immediately losing many of Clique's abilities.  You can't cycle a card yourself to dig.  It doesn't fly, so it gets chumped all day long by token armies or murdered by Goyf.  Knot Seer fills none of the same functions as Clique EXCEPT that it lets you look at their hand and choose a card to discard.

What other card around the same casting cost does that: lets you look at the opponent's hand and discard a card?  Sin Collector.  If they do not remove Knot Seer, then that's all it is.  It costs more and it's bigger, and it is better than Sin Collector in the sense that you don't have to make them discard removal to keep them off whatever card you discarded. But, it fills precisely the same functional role as Sin Collector does.  That doesn't mean that a slightly stronger Sin Collector is BAD, but that's what this guy is.  Do you like Su-Chi's body plus a discard effect?  I dunno, kinda?

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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2016, 12:42:22 pm »

4 mana for a Duress effect in a 4/4 body without evasion is not nearly what I call powerful. If this was Workshopable, then obviously... Clique is only good because it has flash and so it doesn't make you tap out on your turn. Even then, I don't see Cliques being played anymore. Maybe 1 or 2 in BUG, and that's it. And I don't think BUG would trade Cliques for this.

Vintage, though?  Look, it's better than Sin Collector because you don't have to take the removal if you don't want to.  (In that they cannot use the removal to get the discarded card back if  you don't take it.)  But it seems way too slow to play the disruption game unless you're using Eldrazi lands.  As for using those, I think we need a few more sets like Oath of the Gatewatch before Eldrazi tribal breaks into Vintage. 

I think you don't remember how Sin Collector works. If the opponent kills it, he doesn't get his card back. You're mixing it up with Tidehollow Sculler.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2016, 01:37:22 pm »

Oh, man, youre totally right.   My bad.   Now I'm not even sure that this guy is better than Sin Collector!
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2016, 01:45:16 pm »

Oh, man, youre totally right.   My bad.   Now I'm not even sure that this guy is better than Sin Collector!

I like how we lay out a line where it would be insane in modern (and also insane against Blue/storm decks in vintage), and then proceed to compare it to completely unplayable cards.  MaxCDawg logic.
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msg67183
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2016, 02:29:18 pm »

Oh, man, youre totally right.   My bad.   Now I'm not even sure that this guy is better than Sin Collector!

I like how we lay out a line where it would be insane in modern (and also insane against Blue/storm decks in vintage), and then proceed to compare it to completely unplayable cards.  MaxCDawg logic.

Lance, be nice. Brian Kelly played Sin Collector a couple of times during his Mayor Fish days.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2016, 02:29:50 pm »

@Vaughn That's kinda rude, isn't it?

What makes the utility Eldrazi awesome in Modern is the fact that they get the only two Sol lands in the format.   They ramp without using up cards to do it. In Vintage,  there's lots of ways to ramp hard (sol lands,  power nine),
So we compare this guy to other for drips.

Lots of cards are nuts in modern and nothing in Vintage.   Inquisition of Kozilek?   Birthing Pod (pre ban)?  Primeval titan?  
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 02:35:34 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
vaughnbros
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2016, 02:40:01 pm »

What makes the utility Eldrazi awesome in Modern is the fact that they get the only two Sol lands in the format.   They ramp without using up cards to do it. In Vintage,  there's lots of ways to ramp hard (sol lands,  power nine),
So we compare this guy to other for drips.

Lots of cards are nuts in modern and nothing in Vintage.   Inquisition of Kozilek?   Birthing Pod (pre ban)?  Primeval titan?  

I agree it will be great in Modern.  It will almost definitely see a banning or two there.  Why does that not make it worth exploring in Vintage?  You write it off so quickly, while simultaneously giving an argument for it.  We have 16 Sol Lands for Vintage Eldrazi as well as other mana artifacts.  Someone is certainly going to at least try it.  

I think this card is probably the best of all of the Eldrazi since it is the only one that disrupts something outside of just creatures.  In addition I'd argue that this card fills a much needed role in White Trash of a top end curve breaker that isn't stoneforge mystic+equipment.  A 4/4 Vanilla or not is no small body.  Blue decks today make discard good throughout the game and not just on turn 1.  The card is good.
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xouman
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 05:45:26 am »

 {1} {W} {B} is really close to  {3}<> because of the color restriction. Then you have a 2/1 vs 4/4. And there is another critical factor: sin collector only takes sorceries and instants, seer takes anything but lands. Against mud Sin collector ability is dead, and could be against some hatebear deck. Still sin collector is a decent card and I really think it's playable.

When removed from battlefield, seer is worse. But removing a 4/4 is harder than removing a 2/1.
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2016, 10:33:27 am »

Oh, man, youre totally right.   My bad.   Now I'm not even sure that this guy is better than Sin Collector!

I like how we lay out a line where it would be insane in modern (and also insane against Blue/storm decks in vintage), and then proceed to compare it to completely unplayable cards.  MaxCDawg logic.

Lance, be nice. Brian Kelly played Sin Collector a couple of times during his Mayor Fish days.
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2016, 11:21:30 am »

Its an easy win con for world gorger/animate dead combo.  Still don't think that makes it tournament viable, but it has its place.
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2016, 11:27:11 pm »

if the black eldrazi deck plays all the sol lands, and 4 cavern of souls, it could exploit Nether Void better than any deck that's ever existed. 

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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2016, 03:26:03 am »

Debating which existing card is "most like" a new card is a great way to evaluate them.  

How did that work for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? Seriously, I could not disagree more with your statement. Read the card text and look for applications of the new card. Try to consider what decks would run it, what situations it would be good in, what situations it would be bad in. The decks interested in Though-Knot Seer would likely not play Vendilion Clique or Sin Collector so why bother comparing the two?
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2016, 03:38:56 am »

Its an easy win con for world gorger/animate dead combo.  Still don't think that makes it tournament viable, but it has its place.

It seems pretty terrible in Dragon. You essentially require it to be in play when you start the loop or need to have a second reanimation spell in hand (change reanimation target to Seer, then restart the loop).

Though you can stack the triggers so that you accumulate Seer's leaves play ability (and avoid being blown out by a drawn removal spell mid combo), it hardly seems worth it when you have access to Tasigur and Oona which do not have the same requirements and kill with a single Animate Dead.
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