TheManaDrain.com
February 15, 2019, 10:16:03 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: WotC cracking down on proxies, even in non-sanctioned events  (Read 15798 times)
CHA1N5
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 345

bluh


View Profile Email
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2016, 12:56:56 pm »

I've heard about three specific stores receiving notice.  I believe two of them are referenced by others in this thread.  The scope is broadening as more people join the conversation, and you have to believe there are many others remaining silent.
Logged

Workshop, Mox, Smokestack
Tangle Wire spells your Doom
Counter, Sac, Tap, Fade

@KevinCron on Twitter :: Host of the So Many Insane Plays podcast.
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2016, 01:43:48 pm »

If a card with sharpie is a counterfeit, then whoever is making the Monopoly game really needs to be stopped.


It isn't,  and the whole counterfeit/proxy thing is a huge pet perv of mine.   People who want to make Chinese fakes feel legitimate call them proxies.  Wizards ocassionally issues vague statements that folks interpret to mean that a shaped land is a counterfeit.

Wizards had explained that a counterfeit is a card that is a reproduction of a genuine card. http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/resources.aspx?x=magic/rules/cardpolicy

That means a Chinese knockoff is not a proxy; it's a counterfeit.  However,  a sharpied land -or even a cool looking full art proxy - is not a counterfeit because it is not a copy or reproduction.  This does not mean that people do not violate WotC copyright by printing mana symbols on a custom proxy, however.

If we want to be really technical, a home maDE black lotus is neither a proxy nor a counterfeit... but regardless of how WotC uses the terms, there is a big benefit to players to drawing the line between counterfeit and proxy at whether the card tries to pass as genuine.   I've been a long time advocate of people who want good looking proxies for casual use to create or order custom jobs that look nothing like the original.   As a player,  this at least ensures that money is not going to criminal organizations and  keeps fakes that could fool someone in a trade or sale out of circulation.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 01:46:30 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
LandDestroyer
Basic User
**
Posts: 46


View Profile Email
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2016, 03:17:14 pm »

My LGS has informed us no more vintage proxy.  They said they can't take the risk.

my stores said the same.  This has literally killed legacy in my close-by towns and killed the progress we were making with vintage (i lent out 2 decks at the last event non-proxy but i can't field 8 decks by myself)
Logged
diophan
Basic User
**
Posts: 185


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2016, 03:58:37 pm »

I am interested in an up-and-coming format, called Typ 1. Similar to Old School Magic, there are some erratas to how certain cards work. Bulk commons from BFZ block now cost U, are an instant, draw target player 3 cards, and are limited to one per deck. I prefer to use Gift of Tusks. Similarly bulk commons from RTR block cost 1U, are a sorcery that let you take an extra turn, and are also limited to one per deck. I prefer to use Inaction Injunction. There are a few similar erratas.

In an effort to keep the power level of the format down, you may not play with an errata'd and a card with the same mana cost, card type, and rules text.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 04:38:48 pm by diophan » Logged
GrandpaBelcher
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1421


1000% Serious


View Profile WWW
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2016, 04:05:44 pm »

We have had a tournament in Ohio get asked to either be cancelled or sanctioned already due to this. I think this is happening other places as well.  Not to contribute to the sky is falling camp.
To be clear, the tournament was canceled (for now) as a decision by the store after inquiring about the policies with Wizards. Wizards did not go to the store first or threaten anything. They simply reiterated their policy when asked. The store halted the event on their own and was not directly asked.
Logged

Cast Force of Love and help support the Serious Vintage podcast and streaming!
https://teespring.com/seriousvintage
ObstinateFamiliar
Basic User
**
Posts: 22


View Profile Email
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2016, 04:37:38 pm »

We have had a tournament in Ohio get asked to either be cancelled or sanctioned already due to this. I think this is happening other places as well.  Not to contribute to the sky is falling camp.
To be clear, the tournament was canceled (for now) as a decision by the store after inquiring about the policies with Wizards. Wizards did not go to the store first or threaten anything. They simply reiterated their policy when asked. The store halted the event on their own and was not directly asked.

I'm not a store owner, but if I was, I feel like I would have pretty much no choice but to do the same. Losing WPN status would be a death sentence to a lot of stores, and I don't think I'd be willing to risk my livelihood on what may or may not be a "hint, hint, wink, wink" type policy.  Kudos to the store owners out there braver than me, but I feel like for a good number of LGSs this pretty much forces them to comply or risk losing their store.
Logged
cYnic
Basic User
**
Posts: 18


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2016, 04:51:15 pm »

Eh, I more and more feel like that after annus horribilis 2015 has been for magic as a whole, even with the vintage community mostly shielded from it due to its insular nature, should take a clear, unified stance and communicate to wizards that this isn't okay anymore, lest they go full EA. Proxy tournaments seems as fine a hill as any for the eternal players to pick that fight.
Logged
waz
Basic User
**
Posts: 13


View Profile Email
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2016, 04:59:46 pm »

It seems like Wizards may be inclined to make a full statement (rather than just what's been posted on reddit/twitter), probably in a similar vein to the statement put forth about the outcome of the leaks/judge suspensions.

Quote
If we're being honest, this is pretty much all people have been talking about in Magic's corner of the internetóthe store proxy policy that has been inundating the Reddit forums for the past 36 or so hours.

Look for more on this soon on DailyMTG.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-magic-update/january-13-2016-update-2016-01-13
Logged
waz
Basic User
**
Posts: 13


View Profile Email
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2016, 01:40:44 pm »

Wizards Official statement http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14

Quote
This week, a discussion emerged on the internet, particularly on Reddit and Twitter, about Wizards of the Coast's policy on proxies and in-store play. There is clearly a lot of confusion about what our policy is, where we stand on some of the finer points, and why we're trying to kill Legacy and Vintage (we're not).

Here is what happened. We became aware that a store was running a tournament with a suspiciously large prize pool and that they appeared to be allowing proxies. Since the word "proxies" is used colloquially to range in meaning from a marked up playtest card to counterfeit cards, the large prize made the event curious enough for us to want to make sure there wasn't something unsavory going on. We contacted the store to find out more about the event. Our intention was to educate them on counterfeit cards and proxies and ensure they understood our policy. Our communication specifically said that no sanctions were being handed out to the store; this was purely a fact-finding and educational outreach. So that's good.

The bad part was that the details of the policy discussed with the store were both unclear and inconsistent with other communications we've put out. As we dug into what was actually said, we realized that we had different reps in different offices around the world sending different messages, making the confusion even worse. And that's completely our fault.

So, let's clear things up.

Our stated policy specifically applies to DCI-sanctioned events. Cards used in DCI-sanctioned events must be authentic Magic cards. The only exception is if a card has become damaged during the course of play in a particular event (for instance, a shuffling accident bends a card or a drink gets spilled); in that case a judge may issue a proxy for use only for the duration of that event so the player can continue playing.

Our stance on counterfeits is also clear: Wizards remains committed to vigorously protecting the Magic community from counterfeiters. We will remain vigilant for illegal activity, and we will continue to work quickly and decisively with law enforcement agencies around the globe to protect against the creation or distribution of counterfeit Magic cards. Additionally, we reiterate in the strongest terms possible that any individual or retailer who knowingly deals in counterfeits works against the best interests of the community. Wizards has eliminated and will continue to eliminate from the DCI and WPN anyone who knowingly distributes counterfeit cards.

What has gotten caught up in the confusion are playtest cards used outside of sanctioned DCI events. And the reason it has gotten confusing is because we've never really talked about them before. So let's do that.

A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.

What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.

I know there have been different messages in the last few days saying things that conflict with the above (and with each other), and I apologize for the confusion we've caused though our own internal misalignment. Going forward, please take this post as Wizards' official stance. If you need to vent your frustration on anyone, send your thoughts my way instead of piling it on the various individuals who have tried to help by communicating through our chaos. And please know that we have multiple people looking at your feedback and comments on this topic and every other passionate issue that springs up in the community, so please do keep them coming.

And lastly, I wanted to end with a commitment to you for 2016. Speaking for everyone at Wizards, going forward weíll be as transparent as possible and respond to issues you care about as soon as we can. We will always strive for clarity and better partnership, and will communicate with the belief that everyone has the best intentions for the game and community that we all love.

Enjoy Oath of the Gatewatch Prereleases this weekend!

So, the policy only applies to DCI sanctioned events.
Logged
Chubby Rain
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 742



View Profile Email
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2016, 01:46:14 pm »

And much ado about nothing. See you guys at that next proxy Vintage event Smile
Logged

"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"

"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"

Random conversations...
Prospero
Aequitas
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 4857



View Profile
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2016, 01:55:27 pm »

Thank God. 

And now, we can get back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Logged

"Iíll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
Iíll drown my book."

The Return of Superman

Prospero's Art Collection
jimmycolorado
Basic User
**
Posts: 21


View Profile Email
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2016, 01:57:32 pm »

And much ado about nothing. See you guys at that next proxy playtest card Vintage event Smile

 Smile
Logged
mmcgeach
Basic User
**
Posts: 318


View Profile
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2016, 01:58:18 pm »

And much ado about nothing. See you guys at that next proxy Vintage event Smile
Much ado...  does that mean I have to mistakenly marry my sister while I'm posing as a woman who watches her/his true love marry someone else (who's posing as a man), then pretend to commit suicide, and then get resurrected and married?  Cause, man, I'm pretty tired today.
Logged
Chubby Rain
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 742



View Profile Email
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2016, 02:01:55 pm »

And much ado about nothing. See you guys at that next proxy Vintage event Smile
Much ado...  does that mean I have to mistakenly marry my sister while I'm posing as a woman who watches her/his true love marry someone else (who's posing as a man), then pretend to commit suicide, and then get resurrected and married?  Cause, man, I'm pretty tired today.

Spoilers, man...
Logged

"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"

"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"

Random conversations...
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2016, 02:42:01 pm »

And much ado about nothing. See you guys at that next proxy playtest card Vintage event Smile

 Smile

That's actually a kind of interesting point.  From Wizard's perspective, it looks like there are three distinct categories:

1. Counterfeits - Cards trying to pass as real cards
2. Proxies - Replacements authorized by a judge
3. Playtest - Cards that don't try to be passed off as real and are used in non-sanctioned environments.

So... that's probably the nomenclature we should use, now, really.
Logged
gkraigher
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 705


View Profile
« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2016, 02:52:14 pm »

And much ado about nothing. See you guys at that next proxy playtest card Vintage event Smile

 Smile

That's actually a kind of interesting point.  From Wizard's perspective, it looks like there are three distinct categories:

1. Counterfeits - Cards trying to pass as real cards
2. Proxies - Replacements authorized by a judge
3. Playtest - Cards that don't try to be passed off as real and are used in non-sanctioned environments.

So... that's probably the nomenclature we should use, now, really.

Agree.  Any tournament with "proxies" should be changed to "play-test."
Logged
evouga
Basic User
**
Posts: 537


View Profile Email
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2016, 02:53:44 pm »

This is pretty much the best outcome (short of officially embracing "playtest cards" in sanctioned Vintage) we could have hoped for. They backpedaled on the "no proxies at any store events" talk and officially endorsed the status quo.
Logged
cYnic
Basic User
**
Posts: 18


View Profile
« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2016, 03:12:56 pm »

Glad this whole mess turned out the way it did, I guess enough people yelling at wotc makes a difference still. Very Happy
Logged
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2016, 06:02:23 am »

I sent the following message to Wizards thanking Elaine for this article.  I thought it was important to give direct positive feedback for something so generously performed because negative thoughts are so more frequently vocalized than positive reactions.  I debated whether or not to specify that I was the current Vintage champion, because I prefer to engage people without being full of hot air or rattling off "credentials," but I included it because I thought the message was worth giving it whatever extra weight it could have and to perform some of the implied responsibilities of a leader in our format.  The message is below:

-----

Hi,

My name is Brian Kelly, the current Vintage World Champion.  I wanted to thank Elaine Chase for her wonderful article yesterday, "On Proxies, Policy, and Communication."  Having started Magic in 1994, Vintage is the format most dear to me and the one I play most often.  Importantly, because we have a vibrant Vintage community in the Northeast, it keeps our interest in Magic itself alive.  Since returning to paper Vintage in 2013, I have attended ten prereleases and opened over a dozen boxes of new expansions that were relevant for Eternal, particularly those from Khans of Tarkir block.  Being involved in Vintage also connects me to current Magic by inspiring me to play in drafts and occasional Modern tournaments.  It is because of Vintage that I am able to enthusiastically promote the entire range Magic: the Gathering to friends and family, several of whom again will be joining me at this weekend's Oath of the Gatewatch prerelease.  Elaine's article was magnificently written and inspires continued confidence in Wizards and the Magic brand.  Best regards,

-Brian Kelly
Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
rikter
Basic User
**
Posts: 139


View Profile Email
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2016, 09:25:28 am »

I sent the following message to Wizards thanking Elaine for this article.  I thought it was important to give direct positive feedback for something so generously performed because negative thoughts are so more frequently vocalized than positive reactions.  I debated whether or not to specify that I was the current Vintage champion, because I prefer to engage people without being full of hot air or rattling off "credentials," but I included it because I thought the message was worth giving it whatever extra weight it could have and to perform some of the implied responsibilities of a leader in our format.  The message is below:

-----

Hi,

My name is Brian Kelly, the current Vintage World Champion.  I wanted to thank Elaine Chase for her wonderful article yesterday, "On Proxies, Policy, and Communication."  Having started Magic in 1994, Vintage is the format most dear to me and the one I play most often.  Importantly, because we have a vibrant Vintage community in the Northeast, it keeps our interest in Magic itself alive.  Since returning to paper Vintage in 2013, I have attended ten prereleases and opened over a dozen boxes of new expansions that were relevant for Eternal, particularly those from Khans of Tarkir block.  Being involved in Vintage also connects me to current Magic by inspiring me to play in drafts and occasional Modern tournaments.  It is because of Vintage that I am able to enthusiastically promote the entire range Magic: the Gathering to friends and family, several of whom again will be joining me at this weekend's Oath of the Gatewatch prerelease.  Elaine's article was magnificently written and inspires continued confidence in Wizards and the Magic brand.  Best regards,

-Brian Kelly

I think in this case it was a good thing to add the credentials, basically for the reason you described. Your explanation of how Vintage players still crack product and participate in other formats was spot on. Also, I think people forget that even those of us who do not crack new product can still generate more revenue for a store owner off a single high end purchase than many customers will generate in a year of buying sealed product. Even if Wizards doesn't directly see any of that money, our purchases still fund the store and help it continue existing and purchasing sealed product.
Logged
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2016, 06:59:04 pm »

Thank you rikter, I appreciate the input. 
Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.065 seconds with 19 queries.