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Author Topic: [SOI] Thing In The Ice  (Read 4846 times)
evouga
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2016, 03:01:35 pm »

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Also, if you are casting 4 instant/sorcery spells in a game, aren't you already winning that game?

It's hard to lose a game without having cast 4 instants/sorceries by the end. Maybe against shops, Belcher, or TPS, if they get lucky and go off T1 or T2 undisrupted.
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xouman
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2016, 04:37:19 pm »

Sorry for being a bit insistent on this card, but I cannot agree with your statements

Casting 4 instant/sorcery spells is a HUGE cost.  
Playing spells is not a cost, you are playing them nevertheless. If you find problems playing 4 instants/sorceries is because mana problems or simply bad design.
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 Or they could take a line that when it flips its just a 7/8 and bounce it with Jace.  They could also force the flip, then bounce with Jace.  The fact that you cannot control if you want it to flip or not is a HUGE drawback.  A blue mirror could force the issue with a cheap spell that demands a counter, then bounce with Jace.  Reset, here is your 0/4 crappy wall again, enjoy.  
If your opponent has Jace online and can play a cheap spell that demands a counter (ancestral?), I agree that pyromancer is better. But it's not that easy to make your opponent play the 4th spell whenever you want :/ And if that opponent has any creature, it's getting bounced.

Quote
The upside on the card could be huge, but the downside is that's its an 0/4 wall that does absolutely nothing when drawn late.
That much different than Delver of Secrets, because when draw late, it only takes up 1 mana and can flip relatively quickly.  
Yep, a 0/4 creature in the late game is awful. But a 2/1 or a 2/2 without spells are also poor and people keep playing pyromancers and mentors. I'm not saying this is as good as pyromancer or mentor, but it's not strictly inferior by any means, I can imagine thousands of scenarios where this is better (and thousands where this thing is worse). In fact, if I'm playing the mirror, I'd prefer to play Thing and face a pyromancer than otherwise.
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fsecco
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2016, 08:04:55 pm »

You forget you can flip this as an instant. So even if Jace bounces it, you can flip it and bounce your opponent's whole table. And look, playing 4 spells a turn is not something impossible to do (if you want to flip it immediately. We do it all the time with Mentor.
The fact that this answers Mentor nicely seems good to me. And against MUD, if you can't play 4 spells, NO WIN CONDITION EVER would solve that game. Being able to bounce Lodestone, Ravager, Hangarback and the tokens is pretty awesome to me.

If he didn't bounce, he'd just be a blue Quirion Dryad, which is not enough for me at all. But the bounce ability seems good.

Now, the bad side to that is that even if you bounce Mentor/Pyro and the tokens, they are still able to simply play them again and generate chump blockers for this. So, it seems obvious that any deck packing this can't count solely on it as the wincon. And if you're not counting on it as a wincon, you can't be playing too many other creatures, since your Mentors would also be bounced.

So maybe this is a good card for those Storm Control decks, y'know? It's cheaper than Mentor, and not off-color as Pyromancer.
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Khahan
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2016, 10:52:15 pm »


Also, if you are casting 4 instant/sorcery spells in a game, aren't you already winning that game?  


Ancestral, preordain, brainstorm, FoW, mental misstep, mana drain, timewalk, ponder.

Right there is more than enough spells to cast 4 of in a game and not win. It happens quite regularly.

Maybe this isn't maindeck material. There is always the argument of, "in most cases wouldn't having mentor online be better?"  But what about a solid s/b option in a mentor or pyromancer build for certain match ups?  This certainly wins the mentor war where you are both generating tokens and being a pain in the you know what to each other. I think very few of us are calling this card broken or the next mentor in that it will spawn a new archetype. But I think it has a very comfy home in some existing archetypes. It brings some versatility and utility with it which is always valuable to be tacked onto a 7/8 body.
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keys
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2016, 05:12:46 am »

What creatures does this play nicely with besides Snapcaster?

Myth Realized
other Horrors, namely, Revoker

I'm just trying to imagine what kind of deck would want this (or how you build around it)...

Right now a Gush shell seems pretty easy to drop in. 4 TITI, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Dack, 1 Clique, 4 bolt, 12 counters, 18 mana sources, and the rest cantrips/Gush

But is this really better than Pyromancer/Delver? or Mentor? Perhaps better in the mirror but you get blown out by Abrupt Decay or Swords.

The card is decent but I don't see it having the same impact on Vintage as Pyromancer/Mentor.
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xouman
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2016, 05:58:17 am »

Decay is not really common nowadays, so swords should be the top consideration. But this card stays out of pyroclasm effects, token removal, sulfur elemental... you can even play those yourself. In a field full of control decks I'd play mentor or pyromancer, but in a field of aggro and aggrocontrol decks, I'd play this.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2016, 08:13:01 am »

Multiple players have mentioned mentor and 4 spells.  Mentor is good because it triggers with artifacts and planeswalkers as well.  Casting 4 instants or sorceries is very specific.

A deck that does this all the time is storm.  Maybe this is a sideboard card for the storm decks.   
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2016, 10:45:56 pm »

What creatures does this play nicely with besides Snapcaster?

Myth Realized
other Horrors, namely, Revoker

I'm just trying to imagine what kind of deck would want this (or how you build around it)...

Right now a Gush shell seems pretty easy to drop in. 4 TITI, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Dack, 1 Clique, 4 bolt, 12 counters, 18 mana sources, and the rest cantrips/Gush

But is this really better than Pyromancer/Delver? or Mentor? Perhaps better in the mirror but you get blown out by Abrupt Decay or Swords.

The card is decent but I don't see it having the same impact on Vintage as Pyromancer/Mentor.

Spellskite is also a horror and saves your TiTI.
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Ten-Ten
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« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2016, 11:22:47 am »

TITI can also be combined with Vampire Hexmage and Hex Parasite. No need for instants and sorceries ⌒.⌒
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gkraigher
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« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2016, 08:45:17 pm »

TITI can also be combined with Vampire Hexmage and Hex Parasite. No need for instants and sorceries ⌒.⌒

Hmm, that is actually an interesting interaction I didn't know about before I said this card was terrible.  Dark depths, thespian's stage, vampire hexmage, thing in the ice in a blue black shell is pretty reasonable.  Vampire hexmage is actually a very good magic card.  
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serracollector
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« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2016, 10:32:34 pm »

something along this line?

1 demonic tutor
4 TiTi
2 Vampire hexmage
1 hex parasite
1 spellkite
2 unearth
4 preordain
3 gush
1 demonic consultation
1 ancestral recall
1 careful study
1 repeal
1 senseis diving top
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 treasure cruise
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
1 vampiric tutor
4 dark confidant (or thirst for knowledge? bouncing bob seems ok to me.)
5 mox
1 lotus
1 lotus petal
4 underground sea
5 fetch
2 island
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 tolarian academy
1 dark depths

I think the card is honestly rather bonkers. You could technically run this guy in burn.dec and use him as the finisher and not have to use burn on creatures. 
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Ten-Ten
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2016, 12:04:29 am »

I was thinking more in the lines of a deck like Thiim's u/b Standing Depths.
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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2016, 12:08:38 am »

I was thinking something more Gush-Bond Oriented:

4 Thing in The Ice
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
4 Force of Will
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Extirpate
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Island

To me this kind of a deck has plenty of reactive and proactive disruption to tangle with storm decks and then after sb you have extirpates to really screw with heavy control lists and boost the ice counter track for B.

I like the idea of pairing Thing with at least 1 tendrils because you want an easy way to be able to finish the job on the spot if you know your opponent will win on the following turn if you can't find a way to just win now.

I'm also a firm believer that this guy will LOOOOVE preordain x4. 

-Storm
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Ahab1248
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2016, 10:15:23 am »

TITI can also be combined with Vampire Hexmage and Hex Parasite. No need for instants and sorceries ⌒.⌒

Hmm, that is actually an interesting interaction I didn't know about before I said this card was terrible.  Dark depths, thespian's stage, vampire hexmage, thing in the ice in a blue black shell is pretty reasonable.  Vampire hexmage is actually a very good magic card.  

Am I right that even after a Hexmage you need to cast a spell to trigger the flip? If so, hexmage really only save you two spells. Maybe this is enough in a shell with the more broken Hexmage targets.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2016, 10:49:01 am »

TITI can also be combined with Vampire Hexmage and Hex Parasite. No need for instants and sorceries ⌒.⌒

Hmm, that is actually an interesting interaction I didn't know about before I said this card was terrible.  Dark depths, thespian's stage, vampire hexmage, thing in the ice in a blue black shell is pretty reasonable.  Vampire hexmage is actually a very good magic card.  

Am I right that even after a Hexmage you need to cast a spell to trigger the flip? If so, hexmage really only save you two spells. Maybe this is enough in a shell with the more broken Hexmage targets.

Yes, flipping is part of the ability that triggers when you cast an instant or sorcery.
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« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2016, 10:46:20 pm »

If you remove the counters with Hexmage, can you even flip it if you cast a spell? The ability has a then clause after a mandatory action, so if you do not remove a counter does the then which is conditional based on that trigger?

That being said I think Hex parasite is better because it can murder multiple walkers that are not Dack in a game, and it is "on color".

Also, Hunted Horror and this combo well, but I think that is probably more win more than not.
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« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2016, 03:02:39 am »

at least in legacy they get a base shell of

4 preordain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxin probe
4 force of will
4 daze
4 delver
4 titi

we get
a call
walk
brainstorm
ponder
mystical tutor
merchant scroll
4 gush
4 preordain
4 gitaxin  probe
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
4 delver
4 titi

the rest is just fill in the blank.


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Protoaddict
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« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2016, 08:34:56 am »

I think you're forgetting a certain something or two

Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time

Plus lets not act like that shell would not have some number of spell pierce or flusters.
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rikter
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« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2016, 10:04:48 am »

If you remove the counters with Hexmage, can you even flip it if you cast a spell? The ability has a then clause after a mandatory action, so if you do not remove a counter does the then which is conditional based on that trigger?

That being said I think Hex parasite is better because it can murder multiple walkers that are not Dack in a game, and it is "on color".

Also, Hunted Horror and this combo well, but I think that is probably more win more than not.

My understanding of how this would work if you removed the counters with hexmage and then cast an instant is that you would attempt to remove a counter, find no counters, then proceed to trigger the then clause.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2016, 10:12:35 am »

If you remove the counters with Hexmage, can you even flip it if you cast a spell? The ability has a then clause after a mandatory action, so if you do not remove a counter does the then which is conditional based on that trigger?

That being said I think Hex parasite is better because it can murder multiple walkers that are not Dack in a game, and it is "on color".

Also, Hunted Horror and this combo well, but I think that is probably more win more than not.

My understanding of how this would work if you removed the counters with hexmage and then cast an instant is that you would attempt to remove a counter, find no counters, then proceed to trigger the then clause.

Or, more likely, you wait to sacrifice the Hexmage until you've put the ability on the stack.  That is:

Our Hero: "Brainstorm?"
Some Scoundrel: "Pass priority."
Out Hero: "Okay, brainstorm resolves, my Thing in the Ice triggers.  Hold priority.  Sacrifice Hexmage targeting thing."

That way, you don't lose the lady until you're pretty sure she'll be flipping the TITI.
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2016, 12:12:09 pm »

The triggered ability goes on the stack on top of the spell triggering it and will thus resolve first.  There's no way to get around the possibility of losing the flip trigger to instant speed removal. 
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