Jakedasnake's Keeper

[JACO]

If you're going to look at 4cc answers like Moat and Humility, Lobotomy might be worth a look as well. It doesn't need any adjustment to the mana base to fit WW, and it hits Squee if they're careless in addition to a Survival.

Lobotomy cannot hold a candle to Humility in this deck. Also, please don't do the Moat thing either. You are often generating 1/1 NON-FLYING soldier tokens, which become as big as your opponent's creatures once Humility is in play.

While I kind of see this deck being 'tuned' to beat aggro with the 3 Swords to Plowshares, I think it would be best to have either a Humility or The Abyss MAIN deck, and another Humility in the sideboard. Against a deck like SurvivalMadness, Oshawa Stompy, GW Wax/Wane Stompy, or Suicide w/red, 3 Swords to Plowshares buys you a little time, but can't handle the consistent threats churned out by the big boys. I have been playing Humility in my Scepter deck for the past couple of months, and you want to be able to Tutor for a BOMB, not a Swords to Plowshares that knocks out one creature. Damping Matrix is not quite a bomb when you are staring down a 4/4 Arrogant Wurm, a 2/2 Wild Mongrel, and something else. Also, a single Humility or The Abyss is not enough to draw it consistently, so if you are going to play either, I would play 1 in the main and 1 in the board. This coming year aggro WILL become more and more played, as faster builds keep coming out monthly it seems, and you had better be equipped to deal with it.

Also,

It also seems powerful against Hulk. Hulk should roll voer to 3 Reb 2 Damping and Humilty but who knows.

I've got new for you, Hulk isn't going to roll over to 3 REB, 2 Damping Matrix, and a single Humility, especially if they are packing Duress. They are probably still going to win the counter war, or Deed away whatever you actually get to resolve.

Their cards that hurt you most are Survival of the Fittest and Bazaar of Baghdad...You already run several ways to answer Bazaar, so why not run Disenchants too?

Rico has hit it on the head. Disenchant is AMAZING right now, and is almost NEVER a dead draw (unlike Swords against a control or combo deck). Every single deck runs enchantments and/or artifacts, whether it is Null Rod, Isochron Scepter, Survival of the Fittest, Sol Ring, Moxes, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, or whatever else. I play 2 MAIN and 1 in the sideboard to Wish for, and they are never a dead draw. I would recommend at least 1 in the main and 1 in the board for anybody, as well as at least one complementing Rack & Ruin.

[Jakedasnake]

I'd rather have 3 Swords to Plowshares which give me a strong chance against Aggro instead of a 4cc Enchantment that isn't usefull all the time.
Like I said before, if I was going to run a Disenchant effect maindeck, it would be a Dismantling Blow, it's just more versatile and strong against all the decks out there, 1 mana diverence doesn't mean much.

I'd like to see a decklist, because I have no clue how you fit all that stuff in.

I've been considering getting rid of Stifle for more powerful cards, Like Dismantling Blow and maybe a Exalted Angel/Vampiric Tutor.

[JACO]

I'd rather have 3 Swords to Plowshares which give me a strong chance against Aggro instead of a 4cc Enchantment that isn't usefull all the time.
Like I said before, if I was going to run a Disenchant effect maindeck, it would be a Dismantling Blow, it's just more versatile and strong against all the decks out there, 1 mana diverence doesn't mean much.

I'd like to see a decklist, because I have no clue how you fit all that stuff in.

I've been considering getting rid of Stifle for more powerful cards, Like Dismantling Blow and maybe a Exalted Angel/Vampiric Tutor.

Jake, I'd rather not clutter up this thread with decklists, but I can tell you I fit more powerful stuff in by cutting weaker spells like Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor. I'm not a fan of the disadvantage of the instant speed tutors, and I don't like tapping two mana during my main phase for Merchant Scroll; I'd much rather play an Impulse on opponent's end-of-turn. If you're not running Scepter (which I am), then Dismantling Blow is definitely the way to go, especially because a Chalice will often be set for 2 against you.

[Chaos Blade]

If I were to run a Disenchant id cut the 2nd Impulse. Damping Matrix in the matchs I played were a huge bomb for tog. Right now I run a Dismantling Blow in the 3rd Impulse spot and have to test it soon. I might cut the other Impulse for a Vampiric Tutor which seems enteraining.

[Sodent]

I'd rather have 3 Swords to Plowshares which give me a strong chance against Aggro instead of a 4cc Enchantment that isn't usefull all the time.
Like I said before, if I was going to run a Disenchant effect maindeck, it would be a Dismantling Blow, it's just more versatile and strong against all the decks out there, 1 mana diverence doesn't mean much.

I'd like to see a decklist, because I have no clue how you fit all that stuff in.

I've been considering getting rid of Stifle for more powerful cards, Like Dismantling Blow and maybe a Exalted Angel/Vampiric Tutor.

Jakedasnake, your deck runs wishes so take advantage of this spell in your SB. Keep an Disenchant or Dismantling Blow in the sideboard and use the other maindeck, depending on your preference. Keep Vampiric Tutor in the SB and it you need to tutor for something right away a wish can help out.

Stifle is an extremely powerful card. At first I thought it wasn't that great but it always has a use...even pitching to FoW and MisD.

[JuJu]

One of the main Reasons I used to play Fire/Ice was the threat of A-Sligh and other small Aggro like Sui,WW that show up in  Tourneys and B-Xantid Swarms, these little bad boys have been growing in abundance(like all bugs) and are getting really scary for a control player, obviously, Keeper has a hard time winning a counter war with a Tog Player, so if a Tog Player resolves one of these with protection, what are you going to do? I know it is targtebale by lotsa of removal and other things but It's just a pain in the Ass(pardon my Language). It's alot like Blood Moon these days, you can play it around it, but its gonna take you alot of work to do it, so wouldn't R/G beats be one of Keeper's worst matchups? With Beats, Swarms, PoP and Blood Moon, Keeper is in trouble.

[Toad]

Jake, I'd rather not clutter up this thread with decklists, but I can tell you I fit more powerful stuff in by cutting weaker spells like Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor. I'm not a fan of the disadvantage of the instant speed tutors, and I don't like tapping two mana during my main phase for Merchant Scroll; I'd much rather play an Impulse on opponent's end-of-turn.

Eot Impulse will not give you Balance, Yawgmoth's Will, Ancestral Recall or Mind Twist now. Impulse is a conditional tutor (It will only tutor the card you need if it's one of the first 4 cards of your library), while Mystical Tutor fetches every single card in your deck, even your win condition now. You want to design a build that is tuned to beat Aggro but you are cutting Balance #2. Mystical Tutor is one of the best tutors in the game, It's one of the cards that make Keeper viable. Never, ever, cut it.

[The Atog Lord]

If you're looking for strong yet narrow cards to wish for against Stompy, Hibernation may be worth considering. It bounces all their creatures, except mongrel, and also bounces survival.

[Chaos Blade]

Yeah I am most likely cutting my 2 Remaining Impulses. What should I put in? Im thinking Vampiric Tutor. Also Hibernation seems as very good tech against Big O. Im running Humilty StP and Exalted so far for my aggro matchups. I could put an Exalted Maindeck and cut the one in the board for a Hibernation. What you guys think? If I do so Id be running 3 Maindeck win conditions.

[Jakedasnake]

JACO, I just simply disagree with almost everything you've said so far.

I cut wish number 3 for Decree of Justice number 3, and it's been working pretty well so far. Early on, it's good to have a card that can cycle away for a card, plus 1-2 tokens occasionally.

Having 1 Disenchant seems weak. It's not like I'm ever going to draw it with only 1, and it's not powerful enough to tutor up. If I have extra space, I would fit a Dismantling Blow maindeck, but hey, I don't have extra space.

[Chaos Blade]

What do you think of Exalted in Decree 3 spot?

[JACO]

JACO, I just simply disagree with almost everything you've said so far.

I cut wish number 3 for Decree of Justice number 3, and it's been working pretty well so far. Early on, it's good to have a card that can cycle away for a card, plus 1-2 tokens occasionally.

Having 1 Disenchant seems weak. It's not like I'm ever going to draw it with only 1, and it's not powerful enough to tutor up. If I have extra space, I would fit a Dismantling Blow maindeck, but hey, I don't have extra space.

Well, Keeper is one of the most customizable decks, so everybody's build is going to be different. If you think 1 Disenchant/Dismantling Blow is weak, then why would you play any 1 of in the deck? If you are going to keep all the Tutors in, then you will essentially always have more than 1 Disenchant/Dismantling Blow. What makes Keeper so good? It's ability to handle almost any situation and it's card advantage. Most of the Keeper builds I see are building less and less card advantage, and it's going to hurt them in the end. Things like main deck Abyss or Humility are BOMBS against aggro, and if you can protect them you will most likely win the game.

Eot Impulse will not give you Balance, Yawgmoth's Will, Ancestral Recall or Mind Twist now. Impulse is a conditional tutor (It will only tutor the card you need if it's one of the first 4 cards of your library), while Mystical Tutor fetches every single card in your deck, even your win condition now. You want to design a build that is tuned to beat Aggro but you are cutting Balance #2. Mystical Tutor is one of the best tutors in the game, It's one of the cards that make Keeper viable. Never, ever, cut it.

I'm well aware of what Mystical Tutor does, just as I'm aware what Vampiric Tutor and Merchant Scroll do. They fetch bombs in exchange for card disadvantage (with the exception of Merchant Scroll, which is too slow for my tastes), and they are almost never countered. With more and more control decks being played, you can afford less and less card disadvantage against them. Toad, do you really think you are going to resolve key spells against GroATog or Hulk by losing card advantage throughout the game? It's nice hypothetically to be able to fetch those bombs, but if they don't resolve it doesn't do much good. We can argue this point as much as we want, but it is a choice for the deckbuilder. I'm not arguing for anybody to follow my lead here, but it is just something I would rather do considering I play against a lot of control, and if you have played a lot of control vs. control matches you will realize that very small things like this make a difference, and helps win matches. Because I play things like Humility and/or Abyss main deck, I have less of a need to fetch Balance against aggro, because my situation against them is generally not as dire. I would also play another Cunning Wish before I played Mystical or Vampiric Tutor (again, personal preference).

[Toad]

Toad, do you really think you are going to resolve key spells against GroATog or Hulk by losing card advantage throughout the game?

This is why decks have a sideboard. Mystical is awesome against a lot of decks because it can fetch you all the bombs in your deck. Yes, you make card disadvantage when you use it, and yes it's bad against Hulk. That's probably why I'm sideboarding it out game 2 and 3. Furthermore, do you expect to resolve Humility or The Abyss against Hulk? I seriously don't think so. Which means drawing them against Hulk is card disadvantage, as it is a dead draw. Then, why are you maindecking both? Do you really think you are going to resolve key spells by losing card advantage throughout the game?

I'm not arguing for anybody to follow my lead here, but it is just something I would rather do considering I play against a lot of control, and if you have played a lot of control vs. control matches you will realize that very small things like this make a difference, and helps win matches.

Quite frankly, I don't really care if you play a lot against Control or no. I'm just reading what you typed and see you suggested cutting Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor from Keeper's maindeck. Keeper's has dropped Scroll a long time ago and Vampiric Tutor is now a staple in his sideboard as a standard Cunning Wish target. I do realize small things make a difference, as I've spent the last months discussing, playtesting and tweaking Keeper with Zherbus, CarlWinter and some other members of Team Mean-Deck, which are, imho, good leads to follow.

Matt.

[Mixing Mike]

Like I said before, if I was going to run a Disenchant effect maindeck, it would be a Dismantling Blow, it's just more versatile and strong against all the decks out there, 1 mana difference doesn't mean much.

1 Mana is the diffrence between winning games and losing them, espically lately.  With any sort of Workshop Prison decks around, or lots of combo, I can see one mana chaning the outcome of the game.

Not to sound like an ass, but taking out a non-win condition in 'keeper' for a win condition is seriously bad.  It's almost as bad as cutting a mana source for a non-mana source.  You just don't do it.

If you ask me, Decree is horrible vs. green aggro, unless it's one or two Angels.

[Chaos Blade]

Has anyone considered Hibernation? Im trying one in the board right now as an answer to Big O. I am also consdiering Perish. Which one would be better?

[JACO]

I'm not arguing for anybody to follow my lead here, but it is just something I would rather do considering I play against a lot of control, and if you have played a lot of control vs. control matches you will realize that very small things like this make a difference, and helps win matches.

Quite frankly, I don't really care if you play a lot against Control or no. I'm just reading what you typed and see you suggested cutting Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor from Keeper's maindeck. Keeper's has dropped Scroll a long time ago and Vampiric Tutor is now a staple in his sideboard as a standard Cunning Wish target. I do realize small things make a difference, as I've spent the last months discussing, playtesting and tweaking Keeper with Zherbus, CarlWinter and some other members of Team Mean-Deck, which are, imho, good leads to follow.

Matt.

This is why people often have a disdain for the 'Paragons' and others who think their deck is absolutely the best and are not opening to listening. You act as if Zherbus' build is the 'standard' build of Keeper that everybody is playing, which is far from the truth. While his version is often copied by net-deckers here, anyone who has really played the deck enough to understand its nuances will pepper it to their tastes. It is one of the most customizable decks, so for you to say that 'Keeper dropped Scroll a long time ago' is ludicrous, because most people still hold it dear to their heart (I don't, but many people I have played and still play against are using it) and won't let go of it. Just because Zherbus was playing Masticore in his Keeper last year, did that make it standard in Keeper? Is that really what you use to decide what is standard, for which you base your arguments, and how you gauge how a deck should be built? I didn't think so.

As I already said, I'm not suggesting that you or anybody else cut Mystical Tutor from their deck. Jakedasnake asked me how I fit everything in my deck, and I responded with a simple statement. Do you really find it that ludicrous to possibly cut Mystical Tutor from the main deck? People were saying the exact same thing in the past when others first suggested cutting Vampiric Tutor and even Merchant Scroll.

@Mixing Mike: while 1 mana can often make the difference, Keeper has been going lighter and lighter on the mana. It used to run 28-30 sources, and now most builds are running about 26. I believe Michael Pulstilnik (Mikey P), who is a Pro Tour player and who often plays Type 1, was playing 25 mana sources. If I remember correctly, his line of reasoning was that Brainstorm will help dig for those extra lands you need early. I'm not saying I would go below 26, but it certainly isn't without precedence to cut mana sources for business spells in Keeper.

[Jakedasnake]

Jaco: It would be much easier to evaluate your card choices if you posted a list.

Mixing Mike: Against combo, Disenchant is basically shit anyway. Sure, it hits the dragon enchantments, but one mana isn't going to matter much against a slow combo deck. And against green aggro, where Survival of the Fittest is a strong tool, the added late game flexibility, especially against a deck that won't stop and abuse Survival right away, just seems stronger.

The Paragons (well, what's left) are a strong team. There testing and ideas have made them a formidable force. They were what defined Type 1, and they deserve some respect.

[Rico Suave]

One mana always makes a difference, even against "slow" combo.  Remember, it's not just the spell you're concerned about, but how smoothly it fits into the deck.  What if you also want Mana Drain back-up?  That extra mana in D.Blow could bite you if you're stuck at 4 mana.

Another example is if you're playing against Oshawa Stompy and they drop Null Rod.  That one mana can make a huge difference if you're trying to D.Blow the Rod and stuck at 2 land and 2 Moxen.

I don't want to keep butchering that though.  Hopefully the point is clear.  

Either way, what are your thoughts on adding some kind of disenchant effect to the deck?  It seems that it would really help against Oshawa, which seems to be the primary purpose of this discussion.  Between that, Wastes, and Balance you can usually maintain control of the board rather easily.

[Jakedasnake]

I agree with the 1 cc difference, but I've stated my reasons already, so I'm not going to go over them again.

I'd love a slot, but I need ideas on what to get rid of, as I haven't done any testing of my own on the subject.

[Zherbus]

Just a side note, and don't derail this thread with anymore commentary on the subject, but I quit the Paragons. Anyway, my build isn't the standard, and shouldn't be, but it's very flattering to hear that.

[JACO]

Just a side note, and don't derail this thread with anymore commentary on the subject, but I quit the Paragons. Anyway, my build isn't the standard, and shouldn't be, but it's very flattering to hear that.

@Z, I was merely using your version of Keeper as an example to illustrate how some people quickly get wrapped up in defining a 'standard' version of a deck or archetype, and then are not willing to listen to other suggestions.

@Jakedasnake: Trust your instinct, and go with the Dismantling Blow. Just the option to draw cards off it makes it better, not to mention that a Chalice of the Void from a Workshop deck is usually going to be set to 2 against you first. If you aren't running Scepter, there is no reason not to run Dismantling Blow instead of Disenchant (other than casting cost, which, as illustrated by Chalice of the Void example, isn't a great reason). As for where to create a slot, you could always drop one of the Stifles into the Sideboard, thus creating a main deck slot for Dismantling Blow, and also creating the ability to fetch a Stifle with one of your 3 Cunning Wishes, increasing your odds of getting one when you really need it. You could probably cut the one of the Disenchants for the Stifle (essentially toggling your main deck and sideboard, and keeping the same or similar cards available).

By the way, the Paragons, as well as team Mean Deck, are both strong teams, and I meant no disrespect to either in one of my prior posts. They were used as an example to illustrate a point, and they have my full support.

[eddavatar]

Just my .02

Why don't people just let the meta deal with O Stompy?

I mean, this is not like Keeper never have deal with aggro decks before. And usually, keeper has enough to deal with the first wave with counter and then if situtions went out of control, just cast balance.

O stompy while it's scary, it's not much faster than Suicide. I believe it's overhyped.

Look at Dragon, the "best combo" deck in the meta, is being massively hated. I can picture Suicide Sideboarding Contagion and Dystopia now just to hate O Stompy out. Then you probably don't even need to play against it in 2nd round.

Play smart and Wastelands. Get Disenchant handy with 1 maindeck and ready to be wished for. Should be enough to push thru for a win first game.

[Jakedasnake]

I don't think that that is a very good analysis. Oshawa Stompy is a difficult matchup for Keeper. Not only can they stay in the late game with Bazaar of Baghdad+Squee, but they can also abuse Survival of the Fittest like no tomorrow. Early game, they have a strong aggressive creature strategy with Hidden Gibbons, Basking Rootwalla, and Wild Mongrel. All of these cards are problems.

The deck packs plenty of disruption, 5 Strips, Rods, and sometimes Petrified Field. The deck is a problem matchup, and unless Keeper adjusts to this unfavorable matchup, Keeper isn't going to be competetive while Oshawa Stompy is around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this; If you don't want to play Keeper for the next couple of months, forget changing the deck. However, if you plan on doing just this, changes need to be made.

[eddavatar]

First I've to say that I'm not an expert in either archetype, so my reasoning is purely academic and theoratical.

But honestly, Madness, comparing to O stompy, has more acceleration and less wastelands b4 LED got the axe. The spirits of the decks are close. (heck Madness has anger too) But then why is Keeper doing worse against Oshawa than against Madness? Just because of the Troll Ascetics and the wastelands? I really can't buy it. But maybe the test results justify this fear.

Hidden Gibbons are sideboarded. I mean, old school Stompy run'em b4 too. How much different are they from standstill?

I believe, however, that humility is a good direction to look at. It just stop so many things, fat , while the only deck it's dead against is TPS I would believe (heck, it can stop xantid swarm even).

Boy, Xantid Swarms are good. Try this at home: Xantid Swarm, w/ 2 Rancor, invigorate it and Berserk it. My opponent dropped his Jaw.

[Chaos Blade]

Well I think people need to metagame for O stompy. It is a threat and is Tier 1.

[kirdape3]

Stompy is not Tier One - it isn't even the best Survival aggro deck.  TnT is superior because of Goblin Welder, Vengeur Masque is superior because of Force of Will and Illusionary Mask.

[Jakedasnake]

It doesn't matter what 'tier' it is. The deck is effective, and reasonably cheap, especially when playing 5 Proxy. It's a strong threat, perhaps stronger than TnT or Mask because of the playability.

[bebe]

I think people outside of Eastern Canada need to understand why Oshawa Stompy has done so well. First, it was designed to beat Landstill. Troll Ascetics were added to handle UrPhid type decks and Tog. Keeper has not been played much around here for awhile.

At the last tournament that Ray (Razor) played the deck he was smoked.
It has a weak match up against fast aggro - that is traditional aggro, rg beatz, Food chain goblins. I also believe that Hyperion's Madness deck is faster and will also be a tough match. Kirdape3 correctly points to other Survival decks that quite likely would have done as well if played at our venues. When I played Mask, i did quite well but Fish became popular and Null rods were everywhere and ... you get the message. Once a deck is known it does get hated out quickly.

I love O. Stompy. It is a good deck in the right meta. After it won in Montreal at a large venue it seemed to be the deck to beat. Well, we very quickly adapted to it here and beaten it was.  

Now saying it is not a top tier deck is true only relative to its meta. I can say this about a number of other decks as well. Dragon is hardly played here now as too many of us popularized the deck to the point it was hated out. I don't play it now nor does Dicemanx.

Here is what i like about control - it can adapt to the meta better than any deck out there. It can win in any meta. We don't see it winning as often as before because it is not being played by the top players as much.

[Jakedasnake]

Completely true, good post.

Oshawa Stompy is also a deck that I really enjoy to play. I've been toying around with it ever since Razor posted his list, and I think the deck is competetive. Plus, it's fun as hell to play.

[Chaos Blade]

It is a very fun deck to play. If you could would you metagame Keeper for this deck in a national Meta or not?