[Deck]B/G Dragon

[BreathWeapon]

Plated Slagwurm isn't as good as Verdant Force from the decks i've had to face lately. While the Wurm ducks Plow it is still hit by Enchantment Removal and doesn't generate additional threats for the opponent to deal with. Frankly, thats why I view Verdant Force as "The Shit," those tokens are incredibly relevant vs Prison decks. Although, I imagine a 1 or 2 in the SB can't be that big of a difference ... i'll try it out and get back to you.

MD FAT isn't a bad idea, but I feel as tho' it compromise the decks game 1 plan of combo out. With 4 Spoils, your even more commited to the Combo than ever, i'd rather go all or nothing for the instant win.

Unmask vs Swarms, i'm chalking this up to a matter of preference. Yes, Xantid Swarms have ARSE Loads more synergy with the deck ... but its only against Control. The deck banks on pure speed to drive home the win as soon as possible, and being able to Unmask a Trinisphere or Chalice for 2 vs Workshop turn 1 is vital, if I played in NE i'd drop Unmask in a heart beat but I don't have the luxury of being sure i'll play against Control 24/7. Unmask is also a built in outlet for when you need a Turn 1 Draw. I rarely have a problem supporting Unmask, as I only drop Bazaar when i'm going to win, or  I desperately need to pseudo-Brainstorm. You can feel free to cut the Caller of the Call MD for the Lotus and you should (I built this in IRL). However, i'd like to note that the only time I see Matrix is Game 1 vs MUD ... nobody sides the damn things in because they know your going to add Verdants for Game 2. Cabal Therapy isn't a bad idea, but I have horrible luck with the damn card and I want to be as consistant as possible.

I have personal beef with Mana Crypt and Spoils not getting along very well. If I drop the Crypt turn 1 and then Spoils, get something countered and have to look at turn 3 with Crypt misbehaving ... I may well be dead. The same applied to Vampiric Tutor, some how that 2 life cost me the game. If you feel the need to mix things up and add in additional tutors and acceleration go for it, I just figured the deck was fast enough and could afford to with go any additional risks. Oh, I  also absolutely HATE Entomb. IMO its total crap.

The deck is fully customizable to taste and highly flexible, which is really the reason I advocate it over the new Long for Combo players ... its dirt cheap to.

P.S. @Bebe, BreathWagon? Dude, my friends will never let me live that down

[bebe]

Oh, I HATE Entomb. IMO its total crap.

Entomb is so useful if you are main decking the Forces. It costs only one mana as opposed to three for Buried Alive and again it has won games for me. Don't use them if you want but they are certainly not total crap.

Plated Slagwurm isn't as good as Verdant Force from the decks i've had to face lately. While the Wurm ducks Plow it is still hit by Enchantment Removal and doesn't generate additional threats for the opponent to deal with. Frankly, thats why I view Verdant Force as "The Shit," those tokens are incredibly relevant vs Prison decks.

Forces flat out win about a quarter of thre games I played.
I have no qualms about siding the Therapies for Swarms but have not been the victem of hate as much as dicemanx appears to have been. Forces are my eqaulizer. B/g is so damn fast and resiliant that most hate is to slow - Stifle is not good against Force and I have lost one game to an StP. I should have animated the Force but I had stripped my opponent's hand with Duresses and Therapies and he top decked an StP right after.  Even Crypts can be played around by animating your Forces first and Deeds come in gamwe two anyway.

 being able to Unmask a Trinisphere or Chalice for 2 vs Workshop turn 1 is vital

Which is what Duress is for. Game two you have Deeds and you can win against either of those cards if you play smart.

I have personal beef with Mana Crypt and Spoils not getting along very well.

Agreed

The deck is fully customizable to taste and highly flexible, which is really the reason I advocate it over the new Long for Combo players ... its dirt cheap to.

It is flexible and customizable but there are elements that clearly belong and those that do not. Long is a great deck, BTW, but Dragon is so damn easy to play and much more forgiving.

If you want to be successful with Dragon, I'm convinced that you must run more "bombs" in the deck that offer substantial card advantage.

I am more than willing to experiment with replacing Therapies for Swarms for so far  they have been fine out the side. I see no reason to run Slagwurm main and I was once a fan of the Wurms. Unless i draw Entomb i'm not likely to get it as I'll use Tutors for Bazaar 99% of the time.  I'll bring a copy in game two if needed.

Sorry BreathWeapon - i'm dyslexic and a poor typer.

[dicemanx]

I want to point out a couple of things:

If you are justifying FoW or Unmask by claiming that they are almost necessary to stop hosers from wrecking you, then it's probably time to find another deck to play. This might not be a luxury to some players, but for those of us lucky enough to be flexible in our deck choices, we shouldn't play a deck that walks into a hate-filled meta. It's already tough enough to crash through the new breed of control decks; if we have to start worrying about hosers in every deck we play against, from Ankhs in Sligh, to Wretches in Suicide, to Ground Seal and Root Maze and Gaea's Blessing in OStompy, to Chains of Vapor and Stifles in Fish and Landstill, then there's almost no sense in busting out Dragon. I'd rather focus on doing one thing well: dealing with the instant-based hosers that control packs. The disruption base is geared towards doing just that as effectively as possible.

Secondly, I want to say something about the speedWG approach. To be truly effective, speed-Gorger must go off on turn one with appreciable frequency. It doesn't even come close, which makes the speed-gorger approach fundamentally flawed. The problem is that nearly every Dragon hoser weighs in at either 0-cc or 1-cc, with the odd 2-cc cards. This means that turn two is just not fast enough; even with 8 disruption slots you are not guaranteed to punch your combo through. This makes speed builds strictly inferior to the current long.dec; they are also inferior to the more consistent BUG Dragon builds. Speed builds will no doubt pile on a lot of victories in T1, but they just won't be consistent enough in the long run. Perhaps someone might prove me wrong.

Speed builds don't have a long game, which means that there is almost little sense in running fat like Verdants or Slagwurm, but there is no excuse in not running Mana Crypt and even Vampiric Tutor. If you're going to settle on a plan - to win asap - then you have to go all out.

[Smmenen]

Yeah its mana crypt.  > Mox Pearl.

[Vegeta2711]

Fair enough on the Wurm. The damn thing was just always useful for me.

I do agree with Diceman's assesment of the tutor/crypt thing. Though I wouldn't dismiss the fat that easily.

[RoadTrippin]

Speed builds will no doubt pile on a lot of victories in T1, but they just won't be consistent enough in the long run. Perhaps someone might prove me wrong.

Speed builds don't have a long game, which means that there is almost little sense in running fat like Verdants or Slagwurm, but there is no excuse in not running Mana Crypt and even Vampiric Tutor. If you're going to settle on a plan - to win asap - then you have to go all out.

While I have a lot to say about the points addressed so far in my thread, I'm just going to respond to this for now:

Speed builds don't have a long game- this statement goes unconstested. They simply sacrifice too much of the "balls to the wall" approach when you try to incorporate late game tricks. Little sense in running Verdant however, is slightly off. A lot of times it's better to be able to animate a Verdant over a lone Dragon. This is game winning in particular against the current artifact prison decks- if you draw on turn 1, you are now letting them side in their hate with 0 wins so far for you the dragon player. However, if you animate a Verdant turn 1, you have basically ruined their strategy and won the first game. In my opinion (and testing) it is definitely worthwhile to pack at least 1 Verdant for such scenarios. While it isn't necessarily "crazy" to say that the deck relies on having a Bazaar and a black source in play turn 1, you don't exactly need that to win.

About speed builds not being consistent in the long run-
I've won about 15 local tourneys with my speed dragon deck. I play in a metagame that allows 5 proxies but also sees its share of aggro. This is not to say the local players don't sport competitive decks as well- I can rely on playing against at least 1 MUD, Dragon, and Blue-Based control deck at any given tourney. I used to write tourney reports on mtgnews where my deck gradually evolved over a long period of time. Hate was and still is abundant, but I stuck with a deck everyone told me to let go. At my first power tourney I played a rogue Rector/Dragon deck.. partly as a joke as that choice still takes a lot of heat, but all in good fun. I also used Spoils of the Vault first in October or November- it was the first month Mirrodin was legal, and the power tourney hosted by my store was soon after if I remember...

[BreathWeapon]

I think we have to over come some semantics here. B/g Gordger does indeed have a "Long Game." Those Spoils or Unmasks can side out for Verdants to increase the deck's threat density and turn it into a ReAnimator style deck. I can't condone cutting the FAT from the SB at all. Having the luxurey of "down shifiting" the deck's speed for the inclusion of Squee and Xantids against Control or Verdants and Deeds vs Prison and Jank is what makes the deck soo strong.

I don't advocate Unmasks simply because they remove permanent based hate from the opponent's hand, although it plays a huge part in their inclusion. I included them because they speed the deck up a great deal game 1 when your "playing blind." You can Unmask, Ritual, Buried Alive and then Animate on turn 2 for the win without ESG (about half a dozen other combinations exist). IRL, Unmask is what allows the deck to win soo consistantly on turn 2 ... you don't have to stop and play Duress to ensure your threats resolve. This is vital vs Prison, because your preventing huge irritations like Chalice for 2 or a Trinisphere. Game 2, I almost always side them out and only side them back in when I have the initiative.

Also, this deck can and does win on turn 1 but it requires 2 Rituals and an ESG.

[bebe]

I've always played B/g Gorger as a reanimate style deck. The fact that it can combo turn two is a bonus - I've never comboed turn one. Speed and fat are not incompatible and the deck can still be consistent although BuG with P( is obviously a stronger there. Let's get serious though. Dragon has no 'late game' to speak of even in my version. I need to beat control early or mid-game ( turns six - eight ) or I'm in deep trouble. I need to beat FCG even faster and Long faster still. Playing it as a reanimator style deck does not mean I do not want to start the clock as early as possible. Drving thru hate means being faster and packing more threats.

I think what dicemanx is intimating - correct me if I'm wrong - is that fat belongs main decked in b/g and some speed can be sacrificed for it. Play Unmasks if you like and I will play safe with Duress and Therapy backed by fat.

I think we need to understand that all b/g versions are not the same. I do not like the term Speed Dragon at all as the idea for all Dragon decks is to lay a threat  as early as possible or combo out. The only real issue here is consistency and which of the builds offers the best chance against a meta that is totally unpredictable now.

As for Spoils. I can well believe that many of us started testing it early. It just makes sense in a combo build. The true innovation was the addition of EsGs by PTW and even that is debatable as Ancient Tombs are quite good as well if you want a fast Buried Alive/Necromancy.

And yes, Mana Crypt is essential. I never worry about Spoils either. If the card i need is that far down I have already lost against over half the decks out there.

[Smmenen]

I just put the deck together and realized it was unpowered!  Why is this underpowered?

I cut one swamp, the Caller, Sliver Queen, 4 ESG, 1 Buried Alive for 1 Vamp, 5 Moxen, 1 Black Lotus, 1 Mana Crypt.

How does that Sound?  I'll goldfish a bit and let you know what I think.

Steve

[dicemanx]

You should keep a minimum of 2 win conditions - probably at least 1 Sliver Queen and 1 Ambassador. The third is optional, and should probably be Caller if you expect any Root Mazes.

It's actually debatable if Moxes are better than ESG. ESG evades Chalice for 0 and Null Rod, and isn't slowed down by Maze if top-decked. I would actually play the 2 on-color Moxes, the Lotus, Crypt, and 2-4 ESGs, aside from the Rituals and lands.

[Smmenen]

Ok.  I don't expect a single hate card - and I mostly built up the deck not for a tournament, but just to get a feel for it.  So I do not need another win condition for that purpose.  

Is it ok to have cut the Buried Alive, or is that a mistake?  

Steve

[dicemanx]

For maximum speed, you need maximum redundancy. I'd play all 4. Buried Alive is a very strong card that you *want* to draw in your opening seven in combination with mana acceleration.

[Hero]

How well would a powerless WGD deck do?  

I mean, it seems that without 4 Baazar there's no point in playing it.

Is this true?

[Smmenen]

Ok, here is the list i'm working with.  Help me out.

B/G Spoils Dragon

Combo - 5
4xWorldgorger Dragon
1xAmbassador Laquatos

Outlets  - 8
4xBuried Alive
4xBazaar of Baghdad

Animates  - 8
4xAnimate Dead
4xDance of the Dead

Search - 7
1xDemonic Tutor
1xDemonic Consultation
4xSpoils of the Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor

Disruption - 8
4xUnmask
4xDuress

Acceleration  - 12
4xDark Ritual
4xElvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

Mana - 14
4xFetch Lands
4xBayou
6xSwamp

I have to cut two cards.  That's why I cut the Buried Alive.  Now you are telling me that I can't cut it.  So, what do I do?  

Steve

[dicemanx]

26 mana looks to be too much, especially since the BUG versions are fast enough with only 21 mana sources. This deck can operate on one non-Bazaar land with so much acceleration. The only question is what to cut: ESGs or lands or a combination of the two. Try -1 ESG and -1 Land to start.

[BreathWeapon]

@Hero, in a high tiered meta game the answer is Yes. If you just want to kick the crap out of your buddies than you can come up with something reasonably cheap to do so.

@Smennen, the deck isn't powered because it was originaly created as a budget deck. The ESG avoid hate that Moxen don't and help support on color spells after sideboarding. Given the time interval that this deck operates on, I hardly doubt you will notice any difference between ESG or Moxen.

Ya know, what do you guys think about cutting the 4 Unmask/Therapy/Swarm slots for more Mana Acceleration? Is it possible to establish a 10-20% turn 1 win percentage with this thing? My gut instinct tells me that it wouldn't be worth losing the disruption, but I think its atleast worth Gold Fishing for.

[cssamerican]

Smmenen: In the last build you posted you have only one win condition. Have you had problems removing your win condition from the game with Spoils of the Vault or Demonic Consultation? With regards to the mana accelerators used, many times I have found the ESGs to be superior to all moxen other than Mox Jet. The speed at which the deck operates they are functionally the same; however, against cards that are supposed to slow you down such as Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, Trinesphere, and Null Rod the ESGs are better. The only artifact mana cards that are worth running run is Mox Jet, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, and Mana Crypt because they increase the odds of a turn 1 win.

Dicemanx: I do agree if you are in a metagame that is majority control than Swarms are strictly better than Unmasks, but if the deck is going to try to break in to the realm of winning on turn 1, Unmask seems like the better choice. Plus in a metagame that is a little more random being able to remove permanent and instant-based hate is nice feature. And as far as packing fat in the maindeck, I think it takes up too much room unless that fat is your win condition already. That is another reason why I can't figure out why I am the only one advocating the splash of red for Shivan Hellkite. Not only is it the best win condition for the combo 90% of the time it is also a animatable flying 5/5 piece of fat that can also do direct damage. This direct damage can be used to either accelerate its kill time to 3 turns or remove any chump blockers that get in its way. Since it is pretty obvious that you are probably the most knowledgable Dragon player could give your opinion of the red splash? And yes I know it requires red mana, but I do not find that to difficult to achieve with 6 fetchlands, 4 Bazaar, and 5 tutors. So is there another reason why you would not run the splash or would your position be soley based on the red mana requirement?

[dicemanx]

Unmasks received my criticism in more controllish builds, not the speed build. In speed builds, they make a bit more sense, but chances are that you might not want to pitch any card to Unmask. For instance, take this starting hand:

2-3 Mana
1 Animate
1 Buried Alive
1 Ritual
1 Unmask
0-1 Creature

Sure, you can counter right back with examples where Unmask would work, but why open yourself to such possibilities as the hand above?

Regarding the red splash:

Splashing red is always a possibility, but what particularly pressing problems does it solve? I can think of only Ankh of Mishra. I wouldn't count Blessing because Sliver Queen already takes care of that, and likewise a first turn Welder plus a Mox (with a Platinum in the deck) is not good enough against the Queen. I simply don't like the fact that the Hellkite has a colored mana requirement; otherwise, it would for sure be the kill card of choice. The colored mana requirement is a more serious problem once you start splashing colors like green or blue or both.

The other problem is that red just doesn't offer anything in terms of SB cards. REBs are not good enough, and Rack and Ruin isn't particularly exciting. Perhaps Squee + Therapy is a possibility, but that remains to be seen/tried.

Toconclude, the biggest foreseeable problem cards (to me at least) are Root Maze and Damping Matrix, which are both handled readily by Caller of the Claw. All other MD problem cards (Wretch, Ground Seal for instance) can only be handled by certain disruption, not the win condition.