Ankh Sligh

[Rane]

Heh, now you can all see what my head has been exploding about over the last few days.  Few queries though;

@ gbj -
I'm not being rude in saying this ok?  I already posted the reason why Feanor is wrong;

Scroll should be in anyway lol.  Scroll doesn't need testing, it's a GREAT card.  It's just whether or not it fits in the deck.  I said before that Mancer and Scroll are completly different cards that fulfill different purposes but you still treat them to similarly.  Scroll is constant colourless dmg the whole game, that can also be directed to take out blockers and turn every TD into whatever it is + a shock.  Mancer can be used to take out pesky creatures when you have used your burn, can go to the head when the ground game stalls out, and can attack if you run out of fodder for it.  Scroll is a great card by itself, not in relation to mancer.  Mancer is what we want all Sligh creatures to be.  Attackers than can turn into continuous burn to the head when the ground game stalls out.

And again you don't cast either of these card first turn, or you're asking to lose.  Unless you have a Ruby your first turn should always be Pup or Cadets, with SOME matchups having the exclusion of dropping Shaman instead if you have it.  Fanatic is just a far inferior Mancer.  Nobody is going to Swords a fanatic, and if they Swords a Mancer then they must be in trouble and you didn't lose CA or anything.  The only reason I would put in Fanatic now is if I was in a HEAVY aggro environment with mirror like fog.  In which case I would replace Cadets with Fanatics and still leave Mancers in cause they are still better.

Mancer IS better than Fanatic, this is not my opinion it's just dam obvious, 99% of people out there agree.  It also serves a different purpose to Scoll, so don't compare them, and neither EVER should be dropped first turn.

On that note I do agree with you on the Fanatics as replacements for Pups.  This is one of the key points I've been going over.  If we go towards Land D Ankh, Then a first turn Pup or Cadets is crap as we are going to drop Ankh or Pillar next turn and so the Pup won't be able to get through.  We still don't want to drop Grim first cause we can't activate it next turn, so we are left with Monkey.

But if you can attack 2 or more turns just mean only one thing. You are already winning. You have depleted opponent resource in the previous turns and now you are finishing the opponent. Doesn't care at this point one or two damage, you are already in a winning position.

Your logic is flawed here as early on a 2 power is a MUCH bigger difference than a 1.  Yes you may be winning but it's the start of the game and the purpose of those creatures is to get as much dmg through as possible before the ground game stalls out, not to be utility.  What you should have said is what I am considering, that they won't be able to get through if you're looking to drop an Ankh or Pillar second turn.  So this means we need a replacement for Cadets as well.

Seeing as though we know control is already a good match with Ankhs IF we were to go the Ankh way (note that I am not advocating either I am simply saying this as a suggestion,) then I guess the deck would look something like this;

4xGorilla Shaman
4xMogg Fanatic

4xAnkh of Mishra
4xPyrostatic Pillar

4xPillage
4xDwarven Miner

4xGrim Lavamancer
4xCursed Scroll

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning

4xWastelands
1xStrip Mine
1xMox Ruby
14xMountain

SB:
4xMeekstone
3xPyrokinesis
4xScald
4xRack and Ruin

One last thing.  Andro said that the Wastes are too strong to cut in normal Sligh.  I'm undecided on this.  As good as they are, they slow Sligh down considerably.  You wouldn't want to Waste first turn as you are dropping a creature, and second turn you want to bolt blocker and drop utility creature and attack, so third turn is the soonest and even then you normally don't have mana free, and third turn lan D isn't to effective as control already has developed board and combo is set to go off.  Even then and after it interferes with Scrolling where you wish it was just a permanent mana source.  Rings would be better but are still pretty shit.  Especially in the mirror.

[Fëanor]

@Rane:

One last thing. Andro said that the Wastes are too strong to cut in normal Sligh. I'm undecided on this. As good as they are, they slow Sligh down considerably. You wouldn't want to Waste first turn as you are dropping a creature, and second turn you want to bolt blocker and drop utility creature and attack, so third turn is the soonest and even then you normally don't have mana free, and third turn lan D isn't to effective as control already has developed board and combo is set to go off.

This reasoning may help you be "decided":

Sure, Wasteland can often be a pain when you need red mana or are to busy playing creatures, etc. But, The whole idea is to make an attempt to slow down (and possibly stall completely) your opponent. If you can find a time to play your Wasteland then you have less of a chance of seeing the Cadets you just played get killed, or someting worse. I think that's the concept of any non-broken control card. It's almost like wondering why BluMages play counterspell. The card doesn't really fuel their game and they have to leave mana open for it...so why play it? the answer is obvious. Of course, Wasteland is played for a different reason, but same general concept.  

@Androstan: I'm not questioning your skill, but how did you fare with the Ankhless deck against any tier one decks?
The way I see it, Ankh has a lift over any other control permanent red could play (pillar, scald, scroll). It does shutdown some dragon, and reanimator, but it also deals at least a shock to any deck that plays lands...right...But we must also remember that Ankh shutsdown Fetch and is a pain in the ass for manland players. There are obviously some decks, like: Big-O, the mirror, and Breakfast (not that anyone still plays it) which can function fine on one or two land. In these cases, Ankh is almost a dead draw. In this respect I think a deck based around LD, while fun sounding, might be conterpoductive against these decks. If we were to switch over to LD, I'd much rather throw null rod back into the deck.

Gbj: Welcome back, happy to see you haven't deserted us. :lol:

YES. WOW. Ok then, Pups are being taken out then, and in go Fanatics. The whole time through making this deck, I haven't even considered comparing these two guys. Due to experience, Cadets has proven a tad bit better than the Pups, so why not throw in a perfect Pups substitute. Thanks for the suggestion. And thanks for repeating it Rane.  

I see in some list the use of Mishra's Factory. Now, because you are thinking to cut Mancer, isn't stronger Barbarian Ring ? Obviously with Fireblast in main deck. Try to think... Mishra have to be able to attack to deal damage. Barbarian deals damage immediately (with threshold, ok, but with two maindeck you draw it only in midgame). Is the same motive because you play Fanatic over Mancer. Speed. Flexibility. Win now, not after...

Ring actually does not work here. Infact I didn't even like playing them in the tournament at the biginning of this thread. Threshold IS a restriction, not hard to overcome but present nonetheless. The ability to deal two colorless damage with a land is useful in under the right circumstances. As (someone I forget who ) mentioned, it would work better in gobbo or something of the like. Here I would rather hold onto the land I get because I do have a low mana count. Factory is colorless but it is more permanent than Ring and can attack without restriction. It's a toss up between players. Some (like me) just think the card kicks, while some would rather play normal old creatures in that slot. I think what sets them apart for me is the fact that while both are still easily killable in T1, Factory can give you mana, as opposed to waste mana. I used to play with four because I had four, but I now realize It's too risky to play more than two; and less than two...you shouln't bother play any at all.

Much to Gbj's dislike however, I still think 'Mancer deserves at least two slots somewhere. Since fanatics replace the Pups, it would be fine to just leave the deck the way it is and play with 4 GM and 4 MF. But I don't feel comfortable doing that. I keep wondering why we're tossing Scroll and 'Mancer around depending on what they do. No, they aren't built for the same thing, infact they arent even the same color . But both DO deal two non-combat damage (albeit different ways) based on some restriction. It is for that reason, I think I think of them similarly. After that I compare and see that under MUD, 'Mancer is easier to activate, as you don't need an empty hand and it only requires one red as opposed to three colorless (try emptying your hand under a Wire/Sphere lock).
Still Scroll is an insanely good card and can outlast 'Mancer at times. For this reason I thought I'd try to find some space for them. Right now my face is in a textbook and I haven't found the time to fiddle with the deck. Soon, tho.

personally, I'd rather not think of cutting any Ankh, but you're certainly free to keep talking about it since the discussion is productive and interesting.

Since day one, thanks guys. And I'm glad to see new people who haven't minded reading a few nights of some confusing 13 page thread on a "crappy" archetype (that's what we want them to think   ).

Peace

[Gbj]

I see Ankh of Mishra as a land desctruction spell, a source of colorless damage and a control card all in one !
When you play Ankh the opponent has to change his strategy. Have to think to drop lands, if it does can be bolted away by you. If not, the number of option he can play are drammatically reduced.
This is clear in the control matchup. But is true even in the aggro match. Obviously, if you draw it in mid late game the card is less stronger, but in this part of game you should have control or are dead anyway.
Ankh was a great improvement in the modern Sligh build, you can toy with other cards like Tangle Wire as someone is trying, but if you cut it i think is more right to play Goblin (with Recruiter the deck has a new dimension of control without losing focus).
Sinceraly, if i had the card to build Food Chain goblin, i probably play it. I think in this metagame has the same chance of Ankh Sligh against control but better matchup against other decks...

[Androstanolone]

Feanor, basically the ankhless version autoloses to dragon before SBing, that's about the only difference.  The absence of ankh makes price more of a bomb, and against control scroll is often capable of dealing a similar amount of damage.  I don't think the control matchup changes at all, if anything for the better, however aggro is better, and dragon combo is worse.  Other combo is basically the same.  The biggest difference I noticed with the ankhless version is its ability to tap out practically every turn, make use of every available resource, and play multiple spells each turn with a much higher degree of consistency.  It flowed very well, with almost no dead topdecks.  If ankh sligh gets an ankh of mishra out turn 2 against dragon combo or control, it probably has a slightly better chance of winning but beyond resolving ankh turn 2 I think turns are better spent tapping out for weenies, burn, scrolls, and wastes.  Note that I'm talking about old ankh sligh, not LD ankh sligh.  

LD ankh sligh (Red Lockdown) intrigues me.  It MD's 2 combo hosers, ankh and pyrostatic pillar, which make it more resilient to combo.  Both of these are also painful against control, in addition to things like dwarven miner, gorilla shaman, and cursed scroll.  I was messing around with making one last night and the list I came up with is close to Rane's list, except I have 4 stone rains where the miners are.  The miners are reusable under pillar, and under an ankh and pillar they are just pure h8ful.  I think four would end up being too many, 3 is probably a better number (I agree with miner over stone rain) but I donno what to put in the last slot so I'm playing with Rane's list except vandals in place off mogg fanatics.  I think they have better utility with the theme of the deck in the absence of the mirror and artifacts are so abundant.  Cursed scroll is key to the deck, as you need a way to deal them damage under pillar without taking damage.  I'm going to play with two versions of sligh for the next few weeks, if not longer, and really give each one a thorough testing.  Aggro scares me in the LD version, but that's what the SB is for.  Also, scald just adds insult to injury from the board against blue based control, it's just plain mean.  

This deck has a nice mana curve, plenty of strong 1 drops, 2 drops, and 3 drops.  12 solid hosers to drop turn 2, 8 good first turn critters and 4 others if we have to drop mancer 1st turn, and 8 good 3rd turn plays (pillage and scroll).   Obviously, pups don't belong in this version, as pups are a highly aggro card and we want utility and control.  Also, does anyone agree with gbj, that in taking out ankh you might as well just become red stompy?  I always thought that sligh's lack of dependence on creature damage gave it some advantage.

Also, are the 5 strips mandatory in classic sligh?  Rane got me thinking, the tempo loss of having to play second turn waste and not having RR to cast 2 spells hurts, the only time you want that is to prematurely waste a bazaar or workshop that the owner was unfortunate enough to not make good use out of yet.  It seems unthinkable that you'd not include the 5 strips in a T1 deck, but I agree that sligh needs to go one way or the other to be a truly focused and succesful deck.  So for now I will try playing with straight 20 red sligh.  

It's amazing, we've come full circle and then some with this thread, I sympthaize with Rane that my mind has been in circles also as I've pondered dropping ankh for a more classic sligh or going for an ankh + pillar LD combination for a while now.  I never had the guts to try the LD version because it seemed so weak to aggro, but with the new meekstone tech in the SB it may be possible.  It definitely has advantages.  So for now we're playing with the 2 ends of the spectrum, I'm going to have fun playing with them both for a while.  



*moving into uncharted territory* - Androstan

[Gothmog]

How can you guys possibly come to the conclusion Goblin Cadets are better than Jackal Pups?  If Jackal Pups become blocked by weenies/utility creatures, they at least trade with the creature, they don't switch teams.  So many times this is important.  You don't want your attack plan shut down by an opponent's utility creatures.  You also don't want the fact you're using Cadets to dictate what you have to do with your burn spells.  With Cadets you must burn a path for them, with Pups you have more options, and heaven forbid your opponent cycle a small Decree of Justice, at least the the Pups trade with some guys.

[Fëanor]

Exactly what i thought when I first started playing with both Gothmog. If you read the frist page, you'll note that both have their down sides, however, in my area, truly Cadets are better. Play both in your area and see for yourself which is better, but I've played many games with both and Cadets not only lasts longer, but is better in the mirror etc. If you think about it, the Cadets never die from combat and if your opponent attacks/blocks you get them back. Pups is a bolt hogger, you don't want it on the table against Phish, Gay, mirror, and other bad bad burner dex.  Besides, what utility creature would you not want to kill??

Peace

[MooSE]

Hey, i have a question about something.  

What does sligh do aginst decks like Welder Mud and Stax.  I'm talkin ones with like power and workshops, and 4 trinispheres (when darksteel becomes legal).  I only ask, because i keep getting owned by the person that plays it.  I sided in like 9 cards aginst him and i still got owned.

Also, what do we do aginst black decks, is there a good sideboard card VS black.

[Fëanor]

MooSE:

What does sligh do aginst decks like Welder Mud and Stax. I'm talkin ones with like power and workshops, and 4 trinispheres (when darksteel becomes legal). I only ask, because i keep getting owned by the person that plays it. I sided in like 9 cards aginst him and i still got owned.

If it isnt some Blu/counter variant, then it's simple. Throw in your 4 R+R for general killing things tech. Wasteland are there for workshop. Burn is in for Welder and Worker etc. If you face these decks all the time, you might want to consider putting in Vandal.

Against black, Ankh Sligh, um...wins...I have played quite a few Sui and other evil black, and haven't done very bad. I can't think of a real good anti-black hoser or anything. I think Ankh Sligh against Black is when black says, "Ok so you're going to firblast me? not my Sui? not my Negator? Me? (scoop)"

Peace

[Rane]

First up I would like to say I'm going to have to steal that name Andro .  We have officially invented Red Lockdown.  Also I only chose Fanatics over Vandals becaus ethe deck really only has problems against aggro.  But I am no where near decided on this, as I made that decklist up in thge time it tok me to post it.  Not bad for a first draft eh?  I was thinking about SB Null Rods and/or Bllod Moon seeing as this is no longer Sligh but Red Lockdown.

Sligh is stronger than Goblins, it was just a phase that swept through T1.  Now with Trinisphere back on top, Slighes alternate path to victory, Scroll, and the rest are tops.  Sligh has always found its power in consistency, one of thge most important lessons I've ever learnt in MtG taught to me by Newager .

Jackal Pups are definatly better than Cadets, only Feanor disagrees and that's because of his meta whihch he admits.

I have come to the conclusion that there can be no middle ground. I am not trying to take over the thread here and if you wish to continue to talk about middle ground decks of Sligh fine, but to be T1 competitive you really have to go one way.

So now it's just which way to go.  We have Sligh (The real deal) and then we have Red Lockdown.  I think Red Lockdown is obviously weak against Aggro and Slighs weakness is obviously combo.  So now we must work to improving these matchups.  Which is better only time will tell.  For now I will post my current decklists.

Sligh
4xJackal Pup
4xGoblin Cadets
4xGorilla Shaman
4xGrim Lavamancer

4xCursed Scroll

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning
4xIncinerate
4xPrice of Progress
4xFireblast

4xBarbarian Ring
16xMountain

SB:
4xScald
4xRack and Ruin
4xMeltdown
3xPyrokinesis

Thoughts on Sligh: Barbarian Rings vs Mountains.  Fireblast and PoP to 3 each?  What to replace in those two slots?  Fanatics or Cadets?  Cadets better but Fanatics help Aggro matchups and fuel Grim and are better TD AND help Rings.

Red Lockdown
4xGorilla Shaman
4xMogg Fanatic

4xAnkh of Mishra
4xPyrostatic Pillar

4xDwarven Miner
4xPillage

4xCursed Scroll
4xGrim Lavamancer

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning

4xWasteland
1xStrip Mine
1xMox Ruby
14xMountain

SB:
4xMeekstone
4xScald
4xRack and Ruin
3xPyrokinesis

[Androstanolone]

@Gbj yeah ankh is all that, but right now we're saying that, by itself, it isn't strong enough.  It needs the support/synergy of cards like pillar, pillage, miner, shaman, and wastes.  This synergy combined with standard sligh support like bolts/chains, mancers, and cursed scroll, you can effectively lock down your opponent's ability to do much of anything because of all the pain they take just to play normal spells.  You can then win at leisure with constants scrolls, mancer hits, and some burn.  So, if you're not gonna support your ankh with other synergistic elements you might as well play classic sligh.

Roughly, what we've done is take sligh that is good against control, ok against aggro, and sub-par against combo and make it good against control, ok against combo, and sub-par against aggro.  That's a rough sketch though, what we want to see is the shades of difference in these matchups that Red Lockdown has, and hopefully we can find out just how much better (or worse) it is than classic sligh.  We also need to determine the optimal build for Red Lockdown.  

Null rods definitely have synergy in the deck, except that they cut off cursed scroll .  Red is the color of artifact hosers, as such I have always felt that null rod is an inferior choice for red either MD or SB.  Between shaman, vandals, pillage, and R+R in SB I think artifacts are covered.  Blood moon may replace scald in the SB for RL, as it goes in for pillage against multicolor control (i.e. keeper+hulk) and is a superior 3cc against these decks.  In the case of a deck like this I wouldn't go with any less than 4 blood moon in the SB.  If one doesn't resolve, then 4 means you may draw an extra copy, if one does resolve, gg and who cares if you drew 2.    Rack and ruin nicely replaces pillage against the artifact-reliant decks, and against TNT meekstone comes in along with R+R.  I have to disagree with mogg fanatic main instead of vandal, vandal is simply a better control/utility creature in this deck.  I would rely on a SB hoser for the mirror matchup, either pyrokinesis, arc lightning, or earthquake.  I think arc lightning is actually the better choice, earthquake is quicker but you don't wanna kill your own weenies.  Pyro is also quicker but you can end up waiting till turn 3 anyway to get the most use out of it.  Whichever you choose, I'd go with vandal main and rely on weenie hose SB.  

I have to go with Rane, there's no middle ground, old ankh sligh simply doesn't have the consistency and synergy to be optimal, either keep ankh and make it a control deck or toss ankh and make old school sligh with mancers instead of fanatics.  I have to argue with Rane on the barb rings in his sligh, they have anti synergy with lavamancer because mancer empties your yard and rings want threshold.  They also don't help the four fireblasts you're running.  If I ran nonbasics in old school sligh it'd be mishra's factories, for extra colorless damage, eeking out extra damage against control, anti-abyss (though it's barely seen, it comes out occasionally), and to have a 3/3 body against bigger aggro.  But I'm going with simply 20 mountains and a mox, and 3 fireblasts.  I also think you need something anti-combo in your SB Rane, tormod's crypt or pyrostatic pillar have been my fav choices, and I usually run pillar because it fits with the deck and it can actually win the game, rather than just stall the combo player like crypt does.  

I think the list for RL is pretty easy to come up with and self-explanatory, at this point my biggest concern is that we will need a higher land count than 20 for it.  Getting mana screwed when using a mana denial deck is somewhat embarrassing, and besides that RL is a much more mana hungry deck, it wants to operate mancer, scroll, miner, cast ankh and pillar, cast pillage, eat moxen, vandal stuff, etc.  Other control decks run higher land counts also, typically 26-28.  I think 22-24 is a secure range for this deck, since it's mono colored, doesn't run manlands, and really only needs to top out around 3 lands, but 4 lands would probably be a better number to top at.  The 5 strips are practically spells in this deck, so not counting them as lands and we have 16 lands :/.  That's what I'm worried about because I don't know what we can cut for land.  Maybe extra land isn't needed...  I donno, but this is my worry.  Blue based control has brainstorms and card draw to smooth it out, and runs higher counts.  RL is more redundant and mono colored, maybe that's enough to make up for it, maybe it's not.  Thoughts?  



- Androstan

[Fëanor]

Rane: I like both of your decklists and I'm going to fiddle with my own to form those and see which one i like better. But I think for the purposes of this thread as well as the fact that I have fallen in love with the benefits of Ankh, I will venture into Red-Control().

The BuRn.dec list I used to run was quite like your standard Sligh list, and my mouth still waters remembeering the tmes I tore thorugh the competition in Boston and elsewhere in good old 1.5...ah the memories....

But I think it's time to make a change, and go into a new direction. I think I'll end up playing more than one version of Ankh, and you are free to talk about whatever makes it in this thread. Know that if it does end up being some deck style I'm not comfortable with, I'll just be posting less, but I don't realy think It's only my thread anymore, it's our thread and that's fine with me

With that said I think PoP has a chance of making a few copies into your RL deck. Sure it may seem useless but it'll give you at least 2 damage or it'll get countered, seems like your decklist needs counter fodder. Then again maybe there's a better counter fodder

I was never comfortable with miner, but i'll have to find some of them. Could anyone suggest a substitute for the miner?

I'm technically (if it hasn't already been alluded to) going to go with Gbj and stay with Ankh. It never let me down, so the decks I play with will always have them in therr. What we were doing most of this thread was trying to combine fast sligh and slow control and it just didn't mix well, cause when you wanted to draw control you drew Pups, and when you needed a creature, you drew a Pillage.  

So, onward into "uncharted territory" in the hopes that we can bring the Mono-Red storm into competitive and wipe the smiles off those power wielding Keepers

Peace

[Lyhrrus]

Barbarian Ring has horrible synergy with Grim Lavamancer.


@Moose:  Against wMUD and Stax, I side in Pulverize.  Owns their board if R&R and burning their welders isn't enough.  Against SuiBlack, there's not much Sligh has against them.  The first games isn't bad, but the second is a lot worse, since they usually side in Masticore.  Just make sure not to overextend against SuiBlack, since they'll have keg/deed backup.  You could run Pillage, which is in discussion right now.

[Rane]

ROFL, I knew I'd cop the heat on Rings =P.  Yeh they suck and I hate 'em.  As I said a few pages back they are just on the list to test.  I am well aware of their numerous horrible synergies.  It's just a light little test to cope with the extra dmg you don't get from Ankh now.  Mountains will replace if testing fails.  Mishra's are never going to make it, as the have the same problem caused by Ankh/Wastes.  But yeh I gotta test a bit.

@ Andro -
On the note of Red Lockdown SB'n, I would never take out Pillage in the matchups you mentioned.  Although it seems logical at first to replace it with the 'better' version (RnR or BM) after SB'n, I'd rathere just keep it in and take out Chains or somethin.  I think I'm startin to sway on Vandals in RL, but Fanatics help that much more and with Kinesis you actually have good chances of beating aggro post SB.  Most importantly I can't BA|ELIEVE I forgot about Pillar in my Sligh SB.  How the hell did I miss that, I WAS THE ONE WHO MENTIONED IT!  *smacks head* So Slighes SB is now exploding with contenders.  Who will make the Final 15?  I have no F'n clue right now...

Let the testing commence!... erm... continue!

[Oblivion]

With that said I think PoP has a chance of making a few copies into your RL deck. Sure it may seem useless but it'll give you at least 2 damage or it'll get countered, seems like your decklist needs counter fodder. Then again maybe there's a better counter fodder.

Let me just start by saying Sligh is definitely not my area (I'm only here because Rane mentioned this thread to me); but if counter is a problem, why not the REBs? Or even Active Volcano? Or Price of Glory? Or that card Rane mentioned to me earlier but I can't seem to remember... the one where the next card played can't be countered, draw a card...? Can anyone remind of this card's name? Rane?

And about the alternative for Dwarven Miner. What about Rishadan Port? Instead of PoP, how about Molten Rain?

And would Wheel of Fortune work for Red Lockdown?

Perhaps I'm just going mad; otherwise hopefully my suggestions were of some use.

[Rane]

PoP is obviously jank in Red Lockdown.  So is WoF.  WoF is terrible in any deck that can't win off it.  It also happens to be especially bad here because it gives your oppenents back the land you destroyed.  ReB's are also crap because they are a reactive single colour SB answer and the blue match is already WAY in your favour.  Ports are also completly crap in T1 and way too slow and why the HELL would you want to replace Dwarven Miner! Sligh is definatly not your area man...

I still love Overmaster though .  I just don't know if it's worth the room.  It definatly doesn't make the cut in Red Lockdown, but in Sligh it doesn't net you -CA and makes your final PoP uncounterable, or Fireblast or whatever.  I have been testing Overmaster thoroughly.

[Lyhrrus]

REBs are only good in quantity, which is why to run it you need 7 or 8 (REB and Pyroblast).  Active Volcano is not a counter, as it only destroys blue permanents, or returns an island, though I am currently testing it in a Isochron Scepter build as a mana denial element.  However, most people in this thread find stick a bad card to run, although I hold to my 2/2 stick/scroll build.  Price of Glory is not good for Sligh, because many of the spells are instants, waiting to go off at the end of the opponents turn.  Sligh's mana base is already tight enough as it is.

Rishadan Port I believe deserves more testing, though it is quite slow and opens up the mana base to opponents Wastelands.  Pillage is superior to Molten Rain as it can target artifacts and take care of Masticores.  Unlike Molten Rain, PoP is also non-Misdirectable, which is very big in Type 1.

Wheel of Fortune is no longer a staple in Sligh because opponents 7 cards >> Sligh's 7 cards.  It is also bad for Sligh's tempo as it means you really won't be able to cast anything (except fireblast) after casting wheel.

Overmaster is a so-so card, because while it makes your spells uncounterable and acts as a cantrip, it slows your tempo down again.  Also, what happens if it gets countered?

[Fëanor]

Overmaster would be good...if it didn't suck so much
Why waste 1-4 spells on trying to resolve other spells? This card is a dead draw, apart from the fact that it doesn't deal damage, and Rane's deal was that in sligh, if it don't do damage, don't play it.

Currently I'm thinking about running four scroll to see how useless they would be in my deck. I almost never end up with three land if I'm wasting some on my opponent's to slow him down. The thing that makes 'Mancer a much more accesible two, non-combat, damage dealer is that I can actually have the mana open to use it's ability.
Scepter never did it for me since there are way to many ways to deal wth it.

I'm taking a slight hiatus in the Sligh world to go back to my green roots, (chack my Nift! decklist in the Newb)but I will promise to stay with this thread to whatever end, because the mighty Fëanor would never back down from a challenge, even if his dear life was spent to deafeat the opposition... riiiiiiiight...

Peace

[Androstanolone]

They only have so many counters, if overmaster gets countered fine, it absorbs a counter for one mana.  That's basically the same as you'd get out of duress if you were runnin' black beatdown.  It's definitely better than MD incinerate against control as it costs less, cantrips, and can clear the way for a lot more than 3 damage.  I'd say it's a worthy SB against control decks.  If anyone here plays black beatdown, you know duress is basically thought of as a 1 mana counterspell, against control you almost always steal counters, this gains you tempo because while you have tapped only 1 mana for a spell they have been forced to waste a counter on it.  Normally you'd be throwing 2-3 mana into an important spell which they would counter, creating a loss in tempo.  The fact that duress is good against decks other than control causes it to be MDed in black beatz, overmaster is a more narrow card and as such does not get MD space, but deserves consideration as a SB as against control it is virtually a cantrip duress.  As I've said before, card advantage is nearly priceless in red, this is the reason wheel of fortune was popular for a while.  If wheel only affected the sligh player for 3 mana, it'd still be in :/.  However, as I've said before, overmaster itself doesn't deal damage, it only makes other damage more probable.  I don't find REB to be worth it even at 1 mana, but overmaster is 1 mana and slightly better though less versatile (can't hit a tog).  Overall I'd say it is an okay card, but not a breakthrough answer.  I prefer scald so far, but Rane can test it and try to prove me wrong if he wants.  I'd be happy for a better anti-control card any day .  



- Androstan

[Androstanolone]

So far in red lockdown I have dropped one miner and one scroll for 2 more mountains to stabilize my mana.  While acquiring red mana hasn't been a glaring flaw, it is occasionally disruptive and slows me down.  This deck can't afford to be slowed down any by its own mana issues as it is a mana denial deck .  Also you don't need scroll so early anyway, and even miner doesn't need to come out turn 2, the deck has 8 very good 2 drops.  Scroll doesn't function until turn 4 or 5 earliest, so really only 3 are needed.  We have 4 mancer as an early scroll.



- Androstan

[Oblivion]

PoP is obviously jank in Red Lockdown.  So is WoF.  WoF is terrible in any deck that can't win off it.  It also happens to be especially bad here because it gives your oppenents back the land you destroyed.  ReB's are also crap because they are a reactive single colour SB answer and the blue match is already WAY in your favour.  Ports are also completly crap in T1 and way too slow and why the HELL would you want to replace Dwarven Miner! Sligh is definatly not your area man...

I still love Overmaster though .

Oh, I completely agree that Red Lockdown has the blue match already in its favour; I just provided the suggestions because Feanor asked for them; hence why I suggested Rishadan Port instead of Dwarven Miner and hence I suggested some other jank cards that may possibly help.

And I realise Active Volcano is not a counter llyrhus; but Feanor also asked for counter-fodder; and in surely in Red Lockdown; Active Volcano becomes somewhat cheap mana denial, and 4 damage via Anhk, it may also prevent counter. But as stated, I only suggested due to a query given previously.

Molten Rain may not be better than Pillage; but I didn't suggest replacing Pillage with Molten Rain; rather PoP; seeing as you'll probably only deal 2 damage with the PoP in Red Lockdown anyways.

And once more; Sligh is not my area; so if I make a bad suggestion; just ignore  :lol: You better be on this arvo for MtG Rane  

[Rane]

Lol I'm on.  In future don't give advice if people asked for it if it's not needed, just say that "Miners are key" or somethin .

Dam Andro beat me to it .  OVERMASTER IS NOT A TERRIBLE CARD ROFL!  Anyone who says OM sucks is a really bad Sligh player, or very sleep-deprived (Feanor I'm hoping it was the end of a long day or somethin.)  

It gains Tempo if countered, and if countered it still makes your next spell 'uncounterable'.  It's EXTREMLY rare that an opponent had the mana and cards to double Drain (and you'd be stupid for doing this with UUUU open anyway,) or UU for Drain AND FoW AND be above 1 life AND have a blue card to pitch, in which case you still dealt one dmg and gained 1 CA.  They are pretty much ALWAYS just better of letting Overmaster go.  In which case it cantrips and loses you R tempo, which at the time it's used I highly doubt matters and hence still loses you no tempo or card quality.  If it didn't cantrip on resolving it would be jank, but this changes everything.  

Also it's an incredible TD as it cycles for R when you need it to.  You'd probably be better off though leaving it your hand UNTIL YOU DRAW a finisher which is THEN when you play it.  Hell even if it is countered AND your PoP is countered too, you may draw a Bolt/Chain/Rate/Blast!  Any of these would probably finish the job at this point in the game.  You never just use this then hope to draw the finisher, unless you're just cycling it.

Not to mention that whether used for it's ability or 'cycled' it still provides mancer fodder.  This card is not a SB answer and Scald is better.  I was thinkin of this card MAINDECKED!  Even with matchups that don't have counters it cycles for R and gives mancer fodder, which is crucial in matchups because if a deck has no counters it probably has some creatures you will want to shoot down or go over.  If this card doesn't at ALL work MD, then I will still consider it SB.  Sligh has problems finishing the game against the likes of Keeper and Tog, and this baby is the bomb.  The thing that really makes this card great is the 'cycling for R'.  With 4 mancers even in matches when this card is dead it isn't to bad.  It's hard to find cards that are ALWAYS useful.

Lastly, yes my motto is "If it doesn't kill your oppenent don't use it" but this has exclusions from just dmg.
Rack and Ruin - It DOES kill them because it lets you creatures attack/lands untap to cast bolts/whatever.
Blood Moon - It DOES kill them because they can't do anything for the rest of the game.
Null Rod - Ditto.
Overmaster - This one's the most obvious as it DOES let you do dmg you otherwise couldn't do. All the while cantripping!  It makes your PoP read "This card must be countered twice".
Even if I don't use all these cards they are all contenders because they DO kill your opponent .

Good luck with your green.  My R/G Beats wants to make a comeback but I don't know if it's better than Sligh right now...

[Lyhrrus]

So what do you cut for Overmaster?  And how many would you run?  It's a "finisher" card, which does absolutely nothing by itself.  I'm not saying it's a horrible card, but if it were so good, how come it hasn't seen much play yet?

[Fëanor]

it would seem at first putting it in the Sligh would be more fun as, if you have an incinerate to kill a blue mage with, you can do it that turn. But think of the Scalds and Ankhs you can Reslove by playing it in the Denial Deck. I think I would play three, since I play other "help" cards, like wish in three's. As far as what to replace, why not replace 3 chains if you plan on playing chains in your Ankh build. They're both sorcerys at R, so it would be a clan replacement, besides, burn won't be your primary kill in denial. If you play incinerate instead of chain, go ahead and take out three for overmaster.

That's only my opinion. And yes, Rane it seems like I never get enough sleep, so I'm just generally like that

A very renowned Dragon player told me I should only need play three Crypt SB as I already have four defenses maindeck for Dragon to deal with (not to mention Wastes). So there's an extra slot for anyone who hates dragon and still plays Crypt.

I'm liking the whole 4 Scroll, 4 'Mancer, Pillar Maindeck. It really locks down. I'll be back shortly with a report.

Also since this post is not only me playing my deck anymore, I'm unsure of how to update decklists. As of now, I will leave it up to My buddies to make such descisions. Personally I'd like to see everyone's decklist at some time or another just for comparison, but this thread is already fukin' looooong so use your best judgement. Thanks all for keeping me in the competitive mode

Peace

[Gothmog]

Wow, first Jackal Pups are better then Cadets and now Overmaster is good?

Let me try the logic on Pups & Cadets again.

Both creatures a 2/1s.  Jackal Pups damage you when they are damaged, which in most matchups is not a significant disadvantage.  That is their only disadvantage.

So you have a Pup or Cadet in play without summoning sickness, there is only 3 situations to consider on your attack phase:

1) they don't have blockers

You of course swing

2) they do have blockers but you can burn them

Very likely you burn the blocker and swing, but note with the Cadet you have to burn it no matter the situation if you want to get your points in.  With the Jackal Pup you have the option of swinging into a potentially favorable trade.  For example, a BoP stops Cadets cold, Pups keep swinging and force the opponent to choose.  In this situation Pups are strictly better, they give you more options at no cost that matters to you.

3) they do have blockers but for whatever reason, you can't clear the path with burn

In this situation, Pups are strictly better.  You can choose whether or not to attack with Pups.  Cadets are absolutely shut down.

So, in no situation are Pups worse unless their disadvantage is meaningful to you, and unless you metagame is filled with Sligh it seems unlikely their disadvantage is meaningful in the majority of matchups.

On to Overmaster...

Overmaster is only good if you have an Instant or Sorcery in hand or are a lucky topdecker.  Lets look down the list of Instant/Sorceries in your decklists...Yep, seems like damn near every one is a burn spell.  So, you pay one mana to make sure your next burn spell is uncounterable, but that presumes you have a burn spell in hand, which of course begs the question, why not play more burn?  Are we out of good burn spells? Likely you would be taking burn out anyway to make room for the Overmasters.  Overmaster only makes sense in a situation where the slots the Overmasters are occupying would be filled with cards significantly worse than what you are trying to get to resolve.  That's clearly not the case here, because your burn spells are all very similar.  To put another way, Overmaster to get Yawg Will to resolve I'm willing to listen to as a possibility; OM to get Lightning Bolt to resolve is silly.

[Fëanor]

I'm still asleep after a 5 page paper on crap I don't know about. so let me fix some things.

Ooooops, stupid Overmaster doesn't s what i said it does, so it would be better in Sligh...just ignore my stupidity from now on

Honestly I've never played it. I can't vouche for it, tho I'm thinking three would be perfect no matter what you're playing. You get to draw a card, meaning it's no loss of CA. Plus you get to play a spell wihtout worrying about it getting countered. I can think of many reasons to use the card, not just for a finisher (supid blockers )

Okay okay Gothmog, you have proven the point enough times that the issue is way far back and forgotten. As rane said, they're simply better in my situation and everyone around agrees. of course Pup is great, but I'd rather play one more Cadets than a Pup...ok?

idk just the thought of putting Overmaster in Sligh makes me kind of wonder what we're out to prove. They'd probably be just as good SB replacements for Foglioblast.

Peace

[Gothmog]

I thought the 9th Sphere of Hell was Bakersfield, CA, but if I ever venture forth to your metagame, I'll be sure to ask the locals about it because it must be interesting.  

[Rane]

Yeh I'm surprised like you Gothmog as to what metagame makes Cadets better, but like we established already, Pups are better easily and Cadets are just better for Feanor alone.

As for OM you're looking at it the wrong way.  It is there to make sure your Fireblast or PoP resolves, which can be the 'be all and end all' of a Control matchup for Sligh.  Having a Fireblast Drained or FoW is just a biatch and DON'T say like why would you Blast if they might be in a situation to counter or somethin, cuase fact of the matter is when you are facing 10 1/1's you don't have a choice.  We aren't saying OM is "The new Lightning Bolt" or anything like that, but simply that it seems to be a excellent card that is extremely underrated and worth some testing.  It just so happens to be a bonus that5 it is a cantrip early and later on, goes for the low-low price of R, and can alos work with Bolt's and Chain's.

[Smash]

A cantrip isn't as good as a card.

Okay OM cantrips. Too bad your deck is 40% land.. i.e. 40% what you draw off it is a land you do not need.

The ONLY reason OM could be good is when you have a POP for the kill (or big points) to follow it up. And in this case, REB would do the same thing (card draw doesn't mater). And REB kills tog a ma tog.

OM looks to be good.. but it really isn't. It had uses in blueless combos in t2 to server as combo protection, but that was a rather limited roll in an environment without REBs.

It is NOTHING like duress. Duress gets rid of the counter for good. I.e. trade 1 duress for 1 mana drain.

OM just helps 1 spell get through. Huge difference in terms of effect to a control player.

[Rane]

You obviously have not tested the card and are assuming these things.  

Firstly I have MANY a time got a Keeper player down to 2 or 1 only for him to then gain total control and beat be silly.  I have had more than my fare share of Fireblasts Mis D'ed back at me, and enough FoW's to make a grown man cry.  The fact of the matter is Sligh can often run out of speed.  Yet again why Scroll and Grikm are so important, but you can't base your game just around them (or CAN you?  We did it for Pillar and Ankh lol =P.)

Overmaster lets you get any last burn spell through.  40% of my deck is BURN, 33.3% is LAND.  I ain't gonna run more than 20 land+mox in Sligh, and I may go down to 18.  So it cantripping is not as useless as you think.  Also since when was this compared to the godly Duress?  Guess what, Lightning Bolt is better than Chain Lightning.  Now lets all say Chain Lightning is crap... I'm not even gonna bother saying why that comparison is stupid.  The reason why this card is great is because it IS a Duress at it's opportune time for R instead of B, and early on cantrips as Lavamancer fodder OR goes for a counter anyway.  If I have Bolt and OM and I've been relentlessly attacking you, then you see me cast OM with you at 8, you get scared and think I have PoP.  You WILL counter it, even if you call my 'bluff' I get another card and I just got a Bolt for RR which isn't actually bad at all.  I'd play a card that read "RR, Instant, Deal 3 dmg to any target"... ohh wait, Incinerate is in there.  There is no loss in the situation only much to gain.

On the note that cantripping isnt as good as a card.  You have to look at the long run.  If you cantrip into a Mountain, you didn't necessarily draw the Mountain, as you would have got it next turn anyway.  What you actually 'gain' is every draw one turn in advance of where it is supposed to be, with an additional card at the end.  If you didn't run OM you would get exactly the same draws at the same speed and same amount of cards.  All OM does is cost R which I HIGHLY doubt is ever a problem.  It hasn't been so far for me.

I am not trying to sound rude so if it comes out that way I apoligize in advance.  I'm just saying when a card that is not already a staple is introduced into any deck, people will immeadiatly start bashing it instead of testing it first.  People said Mis D would never replace FoW.  It didn't, but it saw a very large amount of play in CONJUCTION with FoW.

The number one reason for running OM is that I have always thought that Duress would be an excellent addition to Sligh, if only it wasn't a dead card sometimes.  In the mirror, and against many other decks it is a POOR TD.  OM does what we want Duress to do, but Cantrips at the same time AND can cycle early.  Seriously test the card.  The only 'drawback' this card has is if there are not enough decks in your area that is effective against, but seeing as though this is T1, I suspect you all see your fare share of counters.

ReB doesn't cantrip making it an inferior Duress that is dead even more often.  Not being able to cantrip when a conditional card is dead is what makes them crap.  Duress is infinetly better than ReB's and I wouldn't run Duress if it was red because of the reasoning of it being a dead draw often.  ReB's ONLY good thing is that it can kill a tog which is commendable, but I ain't using Maze of Ith just because of one deck.

[Androstanolone]

While I agree with your points on OM Rane, I just don't think I can MD it.  I also know that new tech does get bashed a lot either because people don't think things through or because it's simply easy to argue against new tech in a deck like sligh that has been relatively the same for so long.  I just can't personally MD it because I think those 4 slots could be much better spent on a MD way of beating bigger aggro and/or combo.  I never have a problem beating control after SBing in pillars and scalds, there's just too much damage in my deck.  If sligh ran more bombs, i.e. game-enders like Pop, I could rationalize MDing Overmaster.  I'm certainly not tossing it out completely, since it works with SB bombs like scald and pillar, I'm simply hesitant to MD a card with such a narrow purpose and only against one archetype.  It does have the slight edge that it isn't totally dead against the other archetypes because it cantrips, but I donno if that makes up for the fact that it by itself does nothing against these decks.  Duress is better because you can pull out combo cards and control cards, and sometimes hit TNT's survival.  It also permeaneantly gets rid of the card.  That's my spiel for now, off to doing biochem lab.  



- Androstan