[Deck] BroodstarRunner.dec version 2.0

[Samite Healer]

BroodstarRunner.dec version 2.0
brought to you by Samite Healer and Azn James

Introduction:

   It all started toward the end of December.  In preparation for Molot's GM power tournament, my friend who was up from Florida asked to borrow a bunch of power cards.  I complied, of course, and at the end of the tournament he received a prize from Tom for the "most original decklist."  What was this crazy, or as they say in MA, "wicked" original decklist?  Total Jank.  There were random blue duals because he couldn't find basic islands; four workshops, but not enough artifacts to warrant them; and the same with the Broodstars.  I kept all this in the back of my mind as we drove through hell to get back to good old New York.

   When we got home, I offered to help my friend go through the deck and make some modifications, with the intital goal remaining the same:  a type 1 deck that would be able to successfully play and abuse Broodstar.  Naturally, this concept led me to explore a more artifact based build that splashed blue solely for the Broodstars and broken power cards, and red for Goblin Welders, Wheel of Fortune, and greater sideboard options.  Here is the original list we came up with:

BroodstarRunner.dec version 1.0 (60 Cards)

4 Broodstar
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
3 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Chromatic Sphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
2 Shivan Reef
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland

   When the list was finished I called up Azn James to discuss some of the card choices, and to give the list to him so he could test it in Rhode Island where control is everywhere.  Then I sat down to play a few games.  After extensive testing against one of my "teched out" Keeper lists (which had more MD hate against this deck), and goldfishing in general, we discovered the following problems with the deck:

1)  The Broodstars were rarely ridiculously huge, and as a result, costed a significant resource investment.  I started by cutting them down to only two, but eventually removed them from the deck entirely because they weren't pulling their weight.  Mana Draining a Broodstar would often = game over.

2) Lightning Greaves was absolutely amazing and added ridiculous explosiveness to the deck; however, we needed to see it more.  The untargetability bonus shut down Swords to Plowshares, Fire/Ice, Smother, several other forms of removal, and made Rack and Ruin hurt slightly less. Because of this, we upped the count to three.

3) Chromatic Sphere was aiding in the deck's explosiveness as draw 7's were resolving, as they converted colorless Metalworker mana into the appropriate red or blue mana that was necessary after a land drop was already made.  The cantrip effect was nice also during these times, but with the removal of Broodstar the mana smoothing effect was unnecessary and the space was better suited for threats.

4) Pyrite Spellbomb was very efficient in removing opposing Welders, Shamans, random threats, and sometimes killing the opponent through recursion; however, with the removal of Broodstars came the addition of a pair of Triskelions, so the spellbombs were no longer necessary.

5) The manabase needed some extensive tweaking out, especially with the removal of the Broodstars, Spellbombs, and Chromatic Spheres.  The Shivan Reefs were no longer required.

6) Timetwister was taken out for a brief period because of its symmetrical effect and because it removed all the Welder targets from the yard(s).  It was later put back in, and is included in the final version of the deck because of its explosivenes, especially with Metalworkers.

Replacements/Solutions:

   As we removed cards from the deck we contemplated several replacement cards.  Most of the changes are fairly obvious, but this is what we came up with.

Triskelion:   
Pyrite Spellbombs were taken out with Broodstars because the affinity factor wasn't nearly as important.  Instead, we opted for more efficient removal in the from of the dual purpose Trike.

Juggernaut:   

Fat was needed, and putting the control player sitting across from you on a four turn clock on turn one is pretty good.  Add Lightning Greaves to that equation, and suddenly plow isn't what they hoping to draw.  During this time several teams were testing out various Slaver builds, and as we found out through some games, sometimes Juggernaut "just wins".

Thirst for Knowledge:

When we first cut Timetwister James and I searched for more card drawing, and Thirsts became our replacement.  After we put the Timetwister back in, we decided to leave them in anyway because they were pulling their weight in our testing.

Tangle Wire:

A standard tool of Welder MUD, Stax, and some old TnT varients, it seemed like it was worth a shot.  Our deck lacked any form of disruption outside of Wastelands/Strip Mine, and in testing Tangle Wire was just what we wanted.

The List:[/u]

   Here is the current list that we've been working with for the past few weeks that landed me a 7-0 win in a sanctioned t1 in NY, and James' friend a respectable 6-2 Finish at Waterbury.  James had some unfortunate mana issues throughout the day, and I was busy working so I am unsure of his exact record/finish.  And as we all know from the ABM wars of yesteryear, posting results means absolutely nothing, so test it yourself!

BroodstarRunner.dec version 2.0[/b] (60 Cards)

4 Juggernaut
4 Myr Enforcer   {The Beatdown}
2 Triskelion

4 Goblin Welder   {Utility Critters}
4 Metalworker

3 Tangle Wire   {Disruption and Awesomeness}
3 Lightning Greaves

2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Wheel of Fortune   {Draw and Search}
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus      {The Manabase}
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Workshop

CURRENTLY IN TESTING:

-  2 Thirst for Knowledge
+ 1 Mindslaver
+ 1 Tangle Wire

Random Thoughts:

   With the current rise of Mono Green decks, namely Oshawa Stompy (AKA The Big-O), and Jacob's GPR2 List (from his report), BroodstarRunner.dec's matchups are becoming more favorable.  The worst possible matchup is obviously combo, for which the player brings in MANY cards from the board, often including Pyrostatic Pillar (also fairly good against Hulk), Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, and Stifle.  I want to introduce this deck to the community and start a discussion about how to make the list optimal.  Basically, I am hoping that interested people will test the deck out and let me know any ideas that they may have.

[Dr. Sylvan]

BURNINATE! *cough*

Deck name submission: "Stack-UR" or "Trogd-UR".

How does this fare against traditional Stacker? Also, the Mindslaver idea seems a little random. I think I'd stick with the Thirsts for consistency.

Edit: I'd also be interested to hear about how the matches went at Waterbury, because results really do matter. :)

[thorme]

Well, I can't do any testing at work, but here are my initial thoughts:

re: Metalworker
I understand the use in MUD, where a first turn metalworker means that you'll lay down a complete prison on turn 2 and basically win.  It seems like turn 1 Metalworker into turn 2 beatdown critter isn't nearly as effective.  I'd try to maximize your chances of laying a beatdown critter once a turn for the first several turns (hopefully throwing down a greaves somewhere in there).

re: Island
The island is certainly not a bad idea, but often your opponent's wastes will target your Workshops, and seeing how Seat of the Synod works well with 10 cards in your deck (Enforcers, Welders, and Thirsts), I'd think seriously about putting that in over a singleton island.


Just my thoughts.  Were I to test this deck, I would test the original, and then immediately try this:

- 4 Metalworker
- 1 Island
+ 1 Mana Crypt  (THIS SHOULD CERTAINLY BE IN HERE)
+ 1 Tangle Wire
+ 2 Su-Chi
+ 1 Seat of the Synod

[Samite Healer]

While I understand people's concerns about whether or not the Metalworkers are necessary, I would just like to add that they fuel far more than just a fattie on turn 2; for example, they are often Force of Willed on turn 1, which baits a counter early, and often provide me with 7-11 mana on turn 2 (with shop).  This allows me to drop multiple fatties, or often enough a Tangle Wire and a creature.  With draw 7's the Metalworkers are very effective, and even more so with Greaves.  It is not that uncommon to play a turn 1 metalworker, followed by an activation of worker and either Tinkering (for Jar) or playing Jar, and playing greaves and another worker (or welder to immediately weld back the sacrificed worker) and use it right away to drop your entire hand.  I have been very happy with the Metalworkers so far.

Not to be close-minded I will eventually try cutting the Metalworkers for more threats/draw.

About the Island:

I understand that Seat of the Synod couples well with several of the cards in the deck; however running only one copy means its benefit won't come up that often whereas the island is fetchable and is useful more often.  It is included to be able to still play my Thirsts, Walk, Twister, and Ancestral in case of MD Blood Moon or any other reason I may need to fetch it.  Granted, I usually do very well against decks with MD BM (U/R), but against a TnT with BM, I'd like to still be able to cast my draw spells.  I think that SotS is better fitting in Mindslaver builds that run 4 Thirsts.

@Dr. Sylvan:

I know that a friend of James played the exact list I posted above and went 6-2 at Waterbury, but I don't know how each of his matches exactly played out (or who he played).  I will try to find out more information and then post it here for you.

I generally don't post sideboards because they are so regionally dependent, but I believe this is what he used:

3 Sphere of Resistence
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stifle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack and Ruin

[rozetta]

This is quite similar to a deck that a few of us in Helsinki have been working on for a month or two (on and off). The differences being that this is a beatdown deck whereas ours contained more lock components and mindslaver. The engine is identical and that's where the power of the deck lies, and is probably the most important part of this discussion. For those who haven't tried this deck, I can try to explain it, since people only really see the lightning greaves as something to give the fatties haste.

With a metalworker and greaves on the table, playing any of the card draw spells (thirst, draw-7s) allows you to fuel some pretty broken plays. You're likely, in many cases, to be able to generate something in the order of 6 colourless which can be used to drop multiple artifacts. Add to this the fact that any new metalworkers you cast will immediately be able to also produce mana, since you cast it, greaves it and then tap for mana. Additionally, since the greaves' also give your welders haste, simply getting the memory jar out means you can activate it as many times as you cast welders that turn, since each welder can be hasted as soon as it comes into play. This, combined with thirst for knowledge allows your best threat to be discarded directly to the graveyard and welded straight back into play. The side-effect of greaves is pretty nice - equip welders before the end of your turn to prevent them from randomly being fire/iced or swords'd.

A turn 1 metalworker in this deck is every bit as much of a worry for the opponent as it would be in wMUD, since if you have any card draw spells, you could potentially already go off on turn 2.

The memory jar in this deck is about the best card. You can perform neat tricks like cast Thirst and then Jar in response, giving you a look at the next 10 cards. Follow that with a metalworker activation and I think you know where I'm going with this.

I've tinkered around with this deck for a while and have a few card suggestions for you to try:

Clockwork Dragon - I know this is a rather expensive fatty, but in combination with the greaves and metalworker mana, it's pretty ridiculous. If you've already been applying pressure with other creatures, it's possible to end the game right there with one of these.

Bosh - as above. Has good synergy with Myr Enforcer, since that's 7 damage to the head with a Bosh activation. This might actually be better than the dragon, since when it comes down, you've won.

Gilded Lotus - this makes a good tinker and welder target and can easily be dropped with metalworker. Provides the additional coloured mana that this deck always seems to need.

Mindslaver - I see you're already trying this. It can sometimes be a good card.

The biggest problem I have found with my previous builds is their susceptibility to Null Rod. However, this build, running Juggernaughts and Myr Enforcers seems to have a decent enough backup plan to that, especially considering it shouldn't have problems with decks that tend to run Null Rod (Fish, Sui, Stompy). Of course, all my previous suggestions have been susceptible to Null Rod too

[Carlos El Salvador]

This deck reminds me a lot of my current mono Red quazi-MUD deck.  It uses the following creatures for kill cards - 1 Karn (Dur, all MUD does), 1 Bosh, and 1 Mindless Automation (this was before I removed skullcap to make him huge and fetch me cards).  There is a reason why in extended, George W. Bosh ruled the format...  Bosh is ridiculous when in conjunction with HIMSELF even...  8 mana might seem like quite a hefty cost for a 6/7 trampler who can potentally do 21 damage in 1 turn with a myr enforcer in play...  But do I honestly need to say more?  Also, the name should be changed... as Broodstar isn't there.  I say it should be named "Myr Clinton."  Or, "George H.W. Bosh", or "Daddy Bosh" if you add Bosh into the mix.

[thorme]

This is quite similar to a deck that a few of us in Helsinki have been working on for a month or two (on and off). The differences being that this is a beatdown deck whereas ours contained more lock components and mindslaver. The engine is identical and that's where the power of the deck lies, and is probably the most important part of this discussion.

I guess this is my issue with the deck.  I have no problem with the engine, but if you've already got such a strong engine, it seems that you can do better with it than laying some fat creatures....why not just lock the game ASAP so that you're virtually guaranteed the win?  

I do not like Metalworker as fuel for beatdown.

You have 30 artifacts in your deck, so on average you'll get 4 in hand by your first turn.  If Metalworker is one of these, you get 3 others.

So, if your hand is:

Workshop
Delta
Sol Ring
Metalworker
Lightning Greaves
Juggernaut
Thirst for Knowledge

What is your turn 1 play?   In this case, I sure wish Metalworker were Su-Chi so that I could be swinging for 9 on turn 2.

Yes, I realize that you could set up other examples wherein Metalworker is better, I'm just trying to give an example to my thoughts.

I guess I don't understand what the deck is going for:

Sounds like you want to lay Turn 1 Metalworker and then on turn 2 play one of the 3 Draw 7's in the deck and use the Metalworker mana to do crazy stuff resulting in one or more fatties (one of which is hopefully hasted) and maybe a tad of disruption in the form of Tanglewire.

I'm more used to seeing decks that want to do one of the following:

1.  On turn 2, use Metalworker mana to lay a nigh-unescapable prison down on the opponent.

2.  Lay a fattie on turns 1 and 2 and then disrupt opponents attempts to deal with them.

I figured that this deck looked more like a Plan 2-type deck, so my suggestions were geared toward more consistantly laying a fatty on turn 1.  

In either case, the lack of Mana Crypt still has me dumbfounded.

[Samite Healer]

Edit: I'd also be interested to hear about how the matches went at Waterbury, because results really do matter.

Well, I met the guy who piloted my list last weekend, but we didn't have much time to talk it over.  All I know so far is that he got mana-screwed in game 3 against Gay/R, which kept him out of the t8.  This was unfortunate, because I feel that Gay/R is a matchup that is in our favor.

To post more results, I just played the deck at Cape Cod this past Saturday and got 2nd place.  I went 10-2 in games, beating a random tendrils based combo deck, TnT, GAT, Hyperion playing Madness, and a parfait deck, with my only game losses to IamFishMan's insane broken draws in the finals.  Overall, I was very happy with the day and the way the deck played out.

Changes I made for the day:

I added a lone Mindslaver as a 61st card because I'm silly like that, and it was very good in my combo and TnT matches.  I expected some TPS decks to show up, and I saw lots of shops there so I adjusted my sideboard accordingly.  I may have gone overboard, but BroodstarRunner hates combo.  This is what I used for Saturday:

4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast

Now to address some of the comments/suggestions:

Thorme:  A few people have questioned the idea of Metalworkers in this deck, but after playing this weekend I have reconfirmed my belief that they are not only good, but essential to this deck.  You are somewhat right about the theory of the deck; it does want to drop fat and protect it with some form of disruption.  However, the deck wants to be broken as hell also.  I cannot stress enough how many times I have Jarred multiple times in a single turn and been able to play everything b/c of the interaction of Metalworker and Greaves.  This is not simply a "win more" situation either; I have found through extensive testing that, assuming you have an at least mediocre hand, an undisrupted turn 1 Metalworker that is activated on turn 2 just gives me the ability to drop more threats than many decks can deal with that early in the game.  This in itself is a form of disruption, in that if I drop 2-3 threats on turn 2, even if 1-2 can be dealt with quickly enough, the second or third will likely go all the way.  Many people who have played the deck, both on MWS and IRL, have also let me know that the Metalworkers are an integral part of the deck.

Now, I understand that playing a random threat is not as optimal as laying down an entire prison skeleton on turn-2, but several others and myself have found that it doesn't work that way enough, and as a result, MUD and Stax are weak decks right now.  My main problem with MUD is that, barring that the entire skeleton comes down very quickly, it just randomly loses to upkeep effects as a result of not applying much physical pressure.  I have found, escpecially when I was playing with Keeper against MUD, that a random cycling of Decree or Rack and Ruin during the upkeep negated Tangle Wire and/or Smokestack before I could drop a physical threat like Karn, etc.  I agree that when the prison parts come out turn 1 and 2 it is often more than many decks can handle; however, when two Juggernauts and a Myr Enforcer come out on turn 2, that is ALSO more than many decks can handle.  I do know that MUD has a much better matchup against combo deck b/c of the MD Spheres/Chalices, but with the recent rise of the Big-O, TnT, and other aggro decks, in my New England metagame it is better to have a better matchup against aggro than combo right now.  Combo is dealt with in the board.

Addressing Lightning Greaves:

To the people who have immediately questioned/dismissed the inclusion of the greaves, let me just repeatedly say that they are amazing.  Hyperion, CTThespian, and others will testify to this as they have seen them in action, but as always, the best way for people to believe me is through testing.  Just play with them and you'll see what I'm talking about. Greaving up Welders from Fire/Ice, Plow, Smother, etc. is just simply amazing against certain decks: if you play against random sligh or Iso-sligh, greaving up a Juggernaut or Enforcer just goes all the way lots of times: against Madness/TnT they allow you to race Anger.  They make Draw-7's even more nuts.

And, while no one here has questioned Myr Enforcer over Su-Chi, I have met several people who have, so I might as well address this as well.  Compared to Enforcer, in this deck Su-Chi is garbage.  Yes, sometimes the chi comes out faster than its Myr counterpart, but not often.  Off draw-7s, the enforcers usually come out for 0-1 mana, and Su-Chi death often equals mana burn.  With the amount of aggro decks today, the four damage is not something I want when I am trying to race.  In addition, while Pernicious Deed usually destroys my entire board, it is unlikely that my opponent is able to Deed for 7.  Unlike Su-Chi, I can still bash for four afterwards.  This isn't a major point, but it has and does come up in post board Hulk matches.

So, after my performance at the cape a few people have asked me for the list and are testing it out.  I still have yet to try out Bosh and a few other cards, so I'll post about them when I get a chance to do some more testing.  This coming weekend should allow me to do just that.  Thanks for suggestions, questions, and input.  Keep them coming.

[Carebear]

Hi all, I'm the one that piloted Samite Healer's deck in Waterbury, and while it has been a couple weeks since, I will try to relate the occurances of the day as best as I can.

One thing of note is that I made 2 last minute alterations to the deck before the tourney began. I swapped out the Jet for a Mana Crypt and I replaced one of the Triskelions with a Mindslaver.

Anyway, onto my fading memeries
Rd 1: Keeper wannabe
Game 1 I try to start out fast with a turn 1 Metalworker. He resolves, however the next turn when I attempt to play Juggernaut and his friend Myr Enforcer, I  run into a Drain and a Force of Will. I think that I'm playing against keeper because everything that he plays for the first few turns is in most Keeper builds. Then he plays Counterspell. Then Impulse. Then Rainbow Efreet(!). I lose game 1 because of the well placed counters and a phasing guy that eats Juggernauts for breakfast.
Game 2 I 'Slave him for  multiple turns in a row completely destroying any chance he had at the game.
Game 3 I rush out of the gates like a madman ignoring the FoW that he throws at my Juggernaut because I'm too busy playing other threats. He loses before he even comes close to having a chance of stabilizing.
1-0

Rd 2. Something Mono Black
I felt kinda bad for this guy, he played a total of 3 lands and 1 spell in the match against me. Yeah, he kinda lost to mana screw. Whatever, take what you can get, I guess
2-0

Rd 3 Gay/r
Game 1 I play out my entire hand on turn 2, he never has a chance to do anything and he Standstills aren't exactly going to be any good for him.
Game 2. Ah, the joys of mana screw. By the time I have mana to start playing threats he has enough countermagic and threats of his own to win by attrition.
Game 3. W00t, manascrew AGAIN! This game I actually had a shot though. At least, I think I did, lol. It's turn 6, I finally got my second land, strangely it's a second workshop. Gotta love the colored spells with only workshop mana available to you . The turn before I drew the second workshop he taps out to play a Voidmage Prodigy and some other 1 toughness guy, I think it was a Grim Lavamancer. His board consisted of the aforementioned Voimage, Lavamancer, and some other 1 toughness guy (Manta Riders maybe?). My turn comes around and I think to myself "If I draw a Workshop, I might be able to pull out of this with the Triskelion in my hand..." Draw WORKSHOP! Nice, Play the Trike. My opp looks so very heartbroken like I just killed his puppy or something. Then he looks at his hand. "Oh, I have a Force of Will, I guess I win." Bah, after the force, the only cards still in his hand were a Stifle and some lands.
2-1, bah landscrew

Round 4, Keeper, not it's retarded cousin, but the real thing.
Game 1, Same as so many times before, I present him with more threats than he can deal with faster than he can deal with them.
Game 2. In come the perfect sideboard cards against me...Moat and Damping Matrix. I play out a turn 1 Welder followed by a Juggernaut that's swinging on turn 2. He drops the Matrix and I'm thinking great, just what I need. Well, at least I still have a 5/3 that he can't Swords...He takes the beats for another turn, bringing him to 9 (Welder sends with a Matrix out). Then he drops Moat. Frown. If it were one or the other I could deal, but not both of them. If the Matrix wasn't there, I could Slave him indefinately and find a way in HIS deck to kill the Moat. If the Moat wasn't there, I could just swing through with my big guy and smash face. Moat + Matrix > me.
Game 3. See game 2.
2-2 sigh...

Round 5, Sui
Game 1, I muligan to 6 and I'm drawing, so I think that I'll be fine...mind you this was before I knew what I was playing against. He plays first and drops Swamp, Lotus, HymnX2. Yeah, I had 2 cards left when I went to my first turn. Guess who won? Not me
Game 2, I manage to NOT get hymned, however he does Duress Welding Jar out of my hand. Thanks! I play a Welder and proceed to do stupid things with him and the Jar my opponent gave me easier access to. Also, at one point he attacked with a Nantuko Shade with BB untapped. He failed to notice the active Welder on my board as well as the Myr in my grave. After that, I manage to smash face.
Game 3. This is the game that I was the most excited about afterwards for the day. He's smashing my face in and I'm at 3. I have a Greaves and a Welder in play as well as Mindslaver in my hand and a Thirst. EoT I thist drawing 2 more welders and the Lotus. And the Slaver goes into the trash. Untap, draw Mana Vault. Drop the Lotus and the Vault. Do all sorts of stupd mana producing tricks with the Welders, the Lotus, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith. I slave him thinking that if I can hold him off long enough by taking his turns I might be able to turn this game around. He looks at his hand, then at his 3 swamps and says "You just won." He shows me the Necro in his hand and I'm as giddy as a little schoolgirl. Mindslaver won me a game I had no business winning.
3-2

Round 6
I honestly cannot remember what this round was, all I know is that I won it.
4-2

Round 7, GAT
Game 1, I play out a bunch of threats some of which he counters and the rest he ignores while taking a few beats because the turn before he has to start paying attention his Tog got really really big...I think it had a 38 power.
Game 2. Chalk this game up to Mindslaver. After his turn he had 1 card in his grave, none in hand, a few lands out, a Tog and a Dryad with 1 counter on it. To make matters worse, when I took my turn I TDed a REB and killed the Tog.
Game 3, Similar to game 1, only he didn't have a Tog to make angry. He couldn't deal with all the pressure that was on him fast enough.
5-2

Round 8, Keeper, again
Game 1, I'm playing and I have to muligan and abysmal hand. The replacement was, shall we say, above par. I swung for 5 with a hastey Juggernaut and managed to have one sitting back wishing he was hasted. Opponent's reply: "That was a nice muligan hand"
Game 2, I continue to apply the fast pressure that he can't deal with. During what would be his final turn he attempts to Recall his Ancesters but that runs into a REB. The guys on the ground smash him into a bloody mess.
6-2

All in all, it was a very good showing for me (18th out of 191) especially when you take into account the fact that I've never played in a T1 event before and (obv) have no playtesting experience for the format.
The MVP fr the deck over the course of the day would have to be Tangle Wire. I realize now that this is the first that I've mentioned it, and while I should go back and edit the post to include it, it's 5am and I have to be up in 6 hours, so screw that. One of the things that I loved about the Wire was being a very mean man to the guy in the second round. He never had lands untapped during his main phase. Also, it was key in the second match against Keeper and in the 1st games against Gay/r and the first Keeper matchup. The Mindslaver would have actually been better if I had actually drawn it more than the 3 times that I used it. Also, the Mana Crypt allowed me to do more stupid stuff faster than the Jet would have, so I felt like it was a perfect replacement.

[Bigboned]

Assuming that you have tested Windfall, was it really that bad for you? Considering that you want to cut Thirst, I dont think you want to go down two card drawing slots, and the one Mindslaver is a bit random in my opinion. Possibly cut them for Windfall and the last Tangle instead?

Of course, my first reaction was to try to find something to cut for the last two Thirst instead, but the decklist appears rather tight, especially since your testing shows that Worker is solid gold. Possibly cut one Greaves? I love Greaves, having played President Bosh for a while. but they are rather useless in multiples. What are your thoughts?

[Samite Healer]

Assuming that you have tested Windfall, was it really that bad for you? Considering that you want to cut Thirst,

Well, first of all, I don't WANT to cut Thirst because it has been awesome;  I was just testing the deck with out the Thirsts to see how it works.  I tried Winfall early on but just wasn't too impressed because of how situational it is.  Also, I like the fact that Thirst is an instant so I can cast it when my opponents tap out for EOT effects if I need to.

Lightning Greaves is an exceptionally good card in this deck, and in order to see them as much as you want to, 3 copies is required.  I initally tried the deck with 2 Greaves, but they just weren't coming up enough.  Multiple greaves are not useless either, as many times when I have multiple Jar hands, draw 7s, etc I often drop two fatties that can both swing for 9-10.  Combined with Triskelion damage, or anything that was already swinging from the turn before, means that they allow me to win this turn instead of next turn.

[Iron_Chef]

Would just like to say thanks to both Samite Healer and Azn James for making this excellent deck!

That done, on to what I've found...

@Metalworkers:  These guys are what every deck needs; utility creatures.  It fits the slot perfectly.  MW gives the deck an early boost, and unlike things like BoPs, MWs only become more broken as the game goes on, especially if they're active when you resolve a draw 7 not to mention a memory jar.  If you resolve a memory jar with an active metalworker and welder on the table, there is not much your opponent can do to come back from it.  Here's a pretty in depth example of how Metalworker increases the brokeness of this deck.  Things like this happen VERY often and is not a 1 or 2 time occurence.  Bear in mind that this IS goldfishing, and testing how the deck can play out.

Turn 1) Play Volcanic Island, Mana Vault, go

Turn 2) Play Mox Sapphire
Tap Vault, Mox, and V.Island to play Myr Enforcer.
Play Tolarian Academy, Tap Academy to Thirst for Knowledge, discarding 2 lands (waste and strip).

Turn 3) Tap Tolarian to untap Vault, Tap Vault to play Metalworker
Play Mox Emerald
Tap both moxen and the volc. island to wheel of fortune. (discard juggernaut)

Turn 4) Play 2 Greaves, 2 Tangle Wires, 1 Juggernaut using 12 metalworker mana and misc land. Tap both moxen for 1 green 1 blue.  1 colorless still floating.  Timetwister.

The Timetwister resolves into: Greaves, Metalworker, Wasteland, Wasteland, Mishra's Workshop, Triskelion, and Ancestral Recall.  Play the workshop, tapping it to play the Metalworker.  Equip Greaves that is in play. Ancestral Recall.  The Recall brings up a Memory Jar, a Thirst for Knowledge, and a land.  I tap the Academy for 11 and play the Jar.  At this point I'm all tapped out except for 1 lone Metalworker. POP THE JAR!!

The jar brings up 2 welders, 3 land, a mox pearl, and a juggernaut.
I tap the Metalworker for 4 mana, cast the Juggernaut, play the Mox.

At this point I equip the 2 Juggernauts brought into play this turn with Greaves, and smash face for 14, 4th turn.

Turn 5)  Tap down any 1 enforcer, 1 metalworker, and 4 land to the 2 Tangle Wires.

Draw a land, play a Volcanic, Use Academy to generate 13 blue.

Use 3 to Thirst for Knowledge.  Draw into a Tinker, Juggernaut, and Enforcer. Play the Enforcer for free, use the rest of the mana to play the Triskelion, greaves, and to tinker away a mox for another Triskelion.

At this point, turn 5, i have 2 Myr Enforcers, 3 Juggernauts, and 2 Triskelions in play, all able to attack except 1 that i tapped down for the tangle wires.  After combat and Triskelion damage, this totals 27 MORE damage in 1 turn.  If this has not convinced you of the possible brokeness of this deck, I don't know what would.  I was able to continue the cycle of playing out hand after hand via Metalworker, and I think he is essential, if not PERFECT for this deck.

During testing, it is not unlikely that this type of thing happen by turn 5, 6, or at the latest 7.  More often then not it is the combination of hasted metalworkers and goblin welders that recur a memory jar over and over again to become this broken.  This mid game brokeness is the trait that makes this deck so powerful.

Thanks for bearing with my ranting and raving about this deck,

Nick Coss,

Vintage Enthusiast

[thorme]

Bear in mind that this IS goldfishing, and testing how the deck can play out.

Turn 1) Play Volcanic Island, Mana Vault, go

Gotta love goldfishing.  This kind of turn 1 means you often lose against control going second, since you will not drop a threat until they have Mana Drain available.  (see Carebear's earlier post and reference Round 1, Game 1)  Don't get me wrong...the deck still has game against control, no doubt.  The Welders are always a pain for them, and of course you will sometimes just go broken on them.  I just think that we need to consider the benefits of dropping a Turn 1 threat followed by a Turn 2 threat versus an empty Turn 1 followed by dropping mutliple Turn 2 threats.

During testing, it is not unlikely that this type of thing happen by turn 5, 6, or at the latest 7.  More often then not it is the combination of hasted metalworkers and goblin welders that recur a memory jar over and over again to become this broken.  This mid game brokeness is the trait that makes this deck so powerful.

I agree with you that the Metalworkers and Draw-7's create a very broken mid-game for this deck.  I'm not arguing against that...there is no doubt that the deck is capable of some crazy brokenness in the midgame.  

My concern is thus:  against combo, the deck has only 3 Tangle Wires and the Strips for disruption.  Even in your goldfish example, you didn't win until Turn 5.  You don't have enough disruption to last until Turn 5 against combo.

Against control, see my earlier point.  You have a broken mid-game, but if the aggro deck waits until mid-game to start going broken, the control deck has a few tricks of its own that it can now employ.  I've always prefered to put the control player on the defensive from Turn 1.


I'm glad to hear that Carebear's opinions after piloting the deck indicate the desire for the Mana Crypt and the 4th Tangle Wire in the deck.  As for the Metalworkers, there are enough folks on here raving about them, that I will do some testing and re-evaulate them with an open mind.

[Iron_Chef]

While this deck has the capability to be broken as all hell mid-game, it also has the potential for early game brokeness.  I'm not goldfishing until i find an appropriate test result, this is the first game i've played with this since the last post, although this time i'm trying to get threats out asap, vs demonstrating the mid game brokeness of metalworker.

Turn 1) mull to 6) Mishra's Workshop, Mox Jet, Play Juggernaut

Turn 2) Fetchland a Volcanic, Play a Welder. Play a tangle wire (assume it gets drained)  Attack for 5 with Juggy

Turn 3) Play strip mine, strip random dual land, weld out mox for tangle wire.  Smash face with Juggy (Total dmg, 10)

At this point I have to assume that the control player isn't going to have more then 4 permanents out turn 3, except in the possible case of multiple moxen, and that the tangle wire taps all but 1 source down.

Turn 4) Tap down Welder, Volcanic, and Wire to Wire, play island, swing with Juggy. (Enforcer in hand but can't cast) Swing with Juggy (Total dmg, 15)

Turn 5) Tap down Volcanic and Wire to Wire, play Workshop #2, play Enforcer, swing with Juggy for lethal damage.  

To quote Samite Healer,

sometimes Juggernaut "just wins".

My concern is thus: against combo, the deck has only 3 Tangle Wires and the Strips for disruption. Even in your goldfish example, you didn't win until Turn 5. You don't have enough disruption to last until Turn 5 against combo.

Because I thought it was pretty clear on BSRs approach to combo, we can take a look at Samite Healer's SB and explanation.

I expected some TPS decks to show up, and I saw lots of shops there so I adjusted my sideboard accordingly. I may have gone overboard, but BroodstarRunner hates combo. This is what I used for Saturday:

4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast

Hopefully this answers your questions about how the deck performs against combo, and control, which seemed your greatest concern.  I think it does extremely well, especially since you can lay chalices for 0, 1, or 2 turn 1 with ease (against dragon, TPS, and Longer.dec this is basically game over).  I don't think this deck has too too many problems with control, because of its explosiveness and the ability to weld threats in from the graveyard.

[Samite Healer]

As with any deck, it is important to remember that the MD is very relative to the metagame in which it is intended to be played.  That being said, living in New England, the control capital of the world, I have no problem with the configuration of this deck and its game 1 weakness against combo.  If I were to be playing in a VERY combo heavy metagame, I would either try to alter the MD to either fit in some kind of Sphere/Chalice combination, or simply play a different deck altogether.  It is obvious by looking at the list that is weak vs. combo, so the sideboard I used was intended to plug that gap in games 2 and 3.

Regarding Mana Crypt, I think it definitely deserves a slot in the deck.  In fact, when I got 2nd at the cape last weekend, I had swapped the Jet for a the Crypt.  I agree Thorme, that it should've been there the entire time; it was just something that I overlooked and forgot about (however that happened).

[Carebear]

You missed the Crypt for the Jet swap after I told you that it did it at Waterbury? Bah. Anyway, I like the new sideboard a lot better than the pile of trash that was my board.  I might want to try and fit 1 more REB in there, though.

[Samite Healer]

No, I didn't miss the Crypt for Jet swap after you told me; I overlooked the inclusion of Crypt when I originally built the deck, long before you played it.  Actually, if I can, I'd somehow like to include the Crypt AND the Jet.

[AznJam3z]

Hello all!!
    this is the one and only azn james as u all know... i finally get a chance to post on the tmd because for some reason i dont think posting on the newbie forums is gonna do me any good.. i would really like to get a chance to talk to someone about me getting a membership...

well back to original topic of broodstarrunner.dec version 2.0

unfortunately i went 4-4 at waterbury because i lost rounds 1 and 3 to mana screw and 7-8 with mana flood.. im not going to blame anyone but myself.. i didnt shuffle well and im not gonna make excuses...

from testing i do believe the crypt is playable but im not sure right now of what i exactly would like to cut to add the crypt.. i want to run all the moxes because of the worker and welder... with the build plus the additional mindslaver has been working much better... 61 card deck isnt a problem..  and i personally like it.. right now i havent came up with anything new except that i might want to replace the sphere of resistance's in the board for some trinisphere.. anyone think that is viable?

i will be talking to jeff about it.. if anyone wants to get a hold of me my aim is azn jam3z so give me an im or ill keep reading the posts on the deck.. and keep up the posts...

[MolotDET]

This is so great, I wish I had noticed this thread earlier.  I remember in December, I gave Jeff's friend Jay Rivers a beta REB for the decklist.  It was so awesomely rogue.  I am so glad that I get to see the elvolution of this deck.

I believe at the time, I had told him that the Broodstars were the biggest weakness in the deck.  And, he should either remove them or/and add Forces and Thirsts.  I watched several of his games that day.  The deck was so interesting (IE something that you don't see very often).  The one game that I saw him he get Worker/Greeves on first turn was awesome.  The the deck did suffer from mana issues that day and did have some problems with all the Dragon present at the time.

So cool... Thanks for this Jeff and thanks for making the trip.

Tom

[Iron_Chef]

Scene at the TMD Open @ Waterbury: Azn James is playing a match next to me, against basic sligh, piloted by some arrogant, annoying #@%* who didn't know what he was doing.  Anyway, James ended up killing him one game with triskelion and welder, doing 2 points to the sligh player, 1 to the triskelion, and weldering him back in, for another 2 points, 1 pt, welder, etc.

When i heard the clamor about the new Darksteel equipment skullclamp, I thought for a while about ways to break it.  Nothing really popped into my mind.  Sure, you can play a Nekrataal, zap a critter, and draw 2 cards, but that couldn't be the best use for it.  Then I remembered James' match. And Triskelion.  A 4/4 (really 1/1 with 3 +1/+1 counters) for 6, that is already being used in BSR.  Triskelion+Skullclamp=broken.  When equipped its a 5/3, which is significantly better then a 4/4 in my opinion, and you can ping 3 pts of dmg to the dome, an annoying creature, and it will die, because the skullclamp will have converted its 1/1 power w/out counters into a 2/0.  AND when it dies you have the amazing bonus of drawing 2 cards... with no drawbacks.  With Goblin Welder on the board, you have true brokenness.  I tested for as skullclamps as an alternate drawing engine, and I'm still not decided on the result.  Here is the list i used.

NOTE: Only changed items from Jeff's BSR V. 2.0 are listed

original base:

2 Triskelion
4 Juggernaut
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Thirst of Knowledge

my testing base:

4 Triskelion
2 Juggernaut
2 Myr Enforcer
4 Skullclamp

The difference (and the 1 true drawback) in this is the mana commitment neccesary to run 4 triskelions, and have them consistently come up in opening hands.  I had some trouble with this, honestly, and I'm at a loss on how to fix it.  What this change achieved in my testing was a more stable, consistent drawing base, which was uncounterable.  What you gain in massive late-game stability, you lose in speed and brokenness, which I am pretty sure this deck needs.  I tested against hulk, madness, and wMUD, and in each of the matchups i achieved the triskelion/welder/skullclamp setup, but not extremely soon in the game, (earliest i had it was turn 3).  In this you have to make a choice as to where your priority lies, early game or mid-late game.  

I invite you to consider this and do your own testing.  See what happens, and post your replys here.

Thanks for listening to my rant,
  Nick

[Samite Healer]

I don't think I'd ever cut Juggernauts and Myr Enforcers to fit in more Trikes, because the ability to play a 5/3 Fatty on turn 1 is awesome and as you said, it is difficult casting Triskelion.  Skullclamp is an interesting idea, but not one that I think would work.  The additional 1 point of damage is often negligable, and to effectively use it as a draw engine, you need to resolve multiple Triskelions, again, which is difficult to do early.  I also think that having them as a 4 of would make drawing more than 1 early absolutely useless.

Thirst for Knowledge is a much better card from obtaining cards because of its flexability and its synergy with the deck.  You can play it EOT or in response to a player tapping out, and you can weld back artifacts that you have pitched to it.  You will rarely ever skullclamp a Welder to draw 2, and 50% of the time the creatures die to Swords to Plowshares; therefore, I will rarely ever get cards off the clamp.  I have not tested a new version of this deck with any Darksteel cards as yet, but I will be looking into making some changes.

[Iron_Chef]

Good points all in all, however, i still think it should be looked into as a possability