[Deck] Smmenen's Hulk Smash 2K4

[jpmeyer]

It's random.  I don't want randomness

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

So what ARE the good reasons to not run Regrowth? Just a meesly 2 mana seems like a fine deal for another Time Walk, Ancestral, or whatever... And as was already pointed out, it's quite good with Intuition.

So yea, I'd very much love to hear some good reasons NOT to run Regrowth, please.

For me there'd be a single one: Regrowth is the least essential card to the deck. Therefor metagame-considerations will let that (and possibly B2B, there are metagames where duals&bazaars are scarce, obviously) be the first things that get cut if I need room (for MD Duress's, i.e.).

Reasons not to run Regrowth:
1) It's not pitchable to Force.
2) It's not exactly a wonderful card in the opening hand, leading to increased mulligans.
3) It doesn't draw cards by itself. The comparison 2cc utility card is Demonic Tutor, which has a much more powerful use.
4) It is an off-color, meaning that the deck would need green against everything now, as opposed to just fetching a Trop last minute for Deed/Berserk.
5) What would you cut? This deck is chock full of broken cards already.

1.) The deck already has more than enough blue cards to pitch to FoW, that has never been a problem in my testing and the tournament. This is not Keeper.
2.)This was a problem a few times, but usually there is a draw3 to recur by turn 3 at the latest or something went terribly wrong.
3.)Demonic >>>> Regrowth, no contest. It's just pretty good anyway. (There are some more cards in the deck that are weaker than DT, IMO).
4.) As you can shuffle it back with BS if unnecessary, that is not that much of a problem. It came up once or twice, though, and is IMO the strogngest reason to not play Regrowth.
5.) Look at my decklist *G*

[jpmeyer]

Stop being so cute with your decklists.  Just because you can run a card doesn't mean that you should just because "I can pitch it to Force" or "I can shuffle it away."

[Smmenen]

I agree.  Regrowth is insane.  I will probably have one Shaman in my deck as well for upper tier environs becuase it means you don't lose if they resolve Chalice at 3.  There are good reasons not to run Regrowth though.

Steve

So what ARE the good reasons to not run Regrowth?  Just a meesly 2 mana seems like a fine deal for another Time Walk, Ancestral, or whatever...  And as was already pointed out, it's quite good with Intuition.

So yea, I'd very much love to hear some good reasons NOT to run Regrowth, please.  

The most important reason is that it functions as yawgmoth's Will does in your opening hand - a card to brainstorm ontop of your library and then shuffle away - in other words, it is a forced mulligan until you get into a game state where it is goig ot be more useful, i.e turns 3 and on.  Regrowth is a card whose utility rises as the game progresses.  In my environment of heavy workshops and heavy combo, Regrowth does not make the cut - every card in the opening hand has to be immediately useful unless it is Yawgmoth's Will.

Steve

[Rico Suave]

At first I wasn't going to respond to this because others already covered the main reasons, but I wanted to clear up a few things.

Reasons not to run Regrowth:
1) It's not pitchable to Force.
2) It's not exactly a wonderful card in the opening hand, leading to increased mulligans.
3) It doesn't draw cards by itself. The comparison 2cc utility card is Demonic Tutor, which has a much more powerful use.
4) It is an off-color, meaning that the deck would need green against everything now, as opposed to just fetching a Trop last minute for Deed/Berserk.
5) What would you cut? This deck is chock full of broken cards already.

1.) The deck already has more than enough blue cards to pitch to FoW, that has never been a problem in my testing and the tournament. This is not Keeper.
2.)This was a problem a few times, but usually there is a draw3 to recur by turn 3 at the latest or something went terribly wrong.
3.)Demonic >>>> Regrowth, no contest. It's just pretty good anyway. (There are some more cards in the deck that are weaker than DT, IMO).
4.) As you can shuffle it back with BS if unnecessary, that is not that much of a problem. It came up once or twice, though, and is IMO the strogngest reason to not play Regrowth.
5.) Look at my decklist *G*

1) Considering all the other blue cards are really good, it's nice to have something once in a while that you don't need, which you can pitch.  Merchant Scroll, when not useful, gets pitched.  Regrowth, when not useful, doesn't.
2) If you're casting a draw3, why do you need Regrowth?  Just use something to draw even more cards instead of wasting time with Regrowth.  If not, use something else that helps set-up that strategy, as opposed to using a card that works best only after you've drawn a bunch.
3) My point was that if you're spending 2 mana to do something, it should actually do something, whether it's draw cards, take an extra turn, or whatever.  Regrowth eats up mana and literally does nothing but change a card in hand.  I wanted to excuse D.Tutor from that because it's just really good.
4) Already covered, but I'd also like to mention that if you do want to cast Regrowth and don't think it's a problem, it very well might become a problem because of an unsuspected Waste.  
5) That was a euphemism for "run better cards" and not an inability to read your decklist.

[Nameless]

Now that I've listened to all the cute reasons to NOT run Regrowth, please allow me to tell you the one reason you should...

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=99

Notice the two 'Tog decks that made T8 out of 95?  Notice something they both have in common?  It's the most recent Vintage tournament, and it features two 'Tog decks that both run Regrowth.

I don't know who or what you're playtesting against, but it's not working, because your proof is right there.  It's very obvious at this point that those of you opting not to use Regrowth never even TESTED the card.

And there in lies my problem...  "X card is bad because I say so.  No, of course I never actually tested it, but it looks bad."

A sad sad day indeed...

Why don't you guys go email the 87 other people that didn't make T8 that day and tell them why Regrowth sucks in a 'Tog deck.  I'm sure a few of them will have opinions about it.

No, Regrowth does not belong in every deck with Green.  Yes, it most certainly does belong in a 'Tog deck, because it's just broken.  You're asking the wrong questions...  The question you need to be asking is, "Why am I not running a card that is most broken in this very deck?"

...

Edit:  I almost forgot to add another aspect of this that Rico was kind enough to point out...  Regrowth DOES, in fact, do somethign for 2 mana...  It means you're playing with 2 Ancestrals, 2 Time Walks, 2 Demonic Tutors, etc., etc., etc...  Need I go on?  Not to mention that fact that it makes Intuition more broken then it was, and many people have used it to great success WITH Yawgmoth's Will.

[jpmeyer]

If I could run 2 Regrowth, I would run 2.  But not 1.  The reason that I'd run 2 is because then I could Intuition for Walk/Will/etc.

[Windfall]

Regrowth is strong in a Tog deck that is missing key power cards, allowing you to recur a big AK or something like that.  However, with a full set of power and the AK draw engine, I just don't think you need to be casting any of it again.

Against aggro you should win because you can play combo, ignoring your opponent until you can Berserk your Tog.

Against control, Regrowth functions a little better in my opinion, but the fast draw of Tog usually out draws other control decks and can win anyway without Regrowth.

I can imagine situations where it is strong - when both decks are in topdeck mode, etc.  But I'd rather run cards to prevent topdeck mode from ever happening.  It's kind of the same philosophy of why I don't bring in Swords against Tog when I play Keeper (in fact, I side my maindeck Swords out) - because I want cards to help me fight the early game card advantage wars, and Swords will not do that.  Regrowth is too clunky to help me in the early turns against control.  Demonic Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Gush, and the AK engine are what I need...

That's just my opinion.

     ~Mark B.

[Rico Suave]

Edit:  I almost forgot to add another aspect of this that Rico was kind enough to point out...  Regrowth DOES, in fact, do somethign for 2 mana...  It means you're playing with 2 Ancestrals, 2 Time Walks, 2 Demonic Tutors, etc., etc., etc...  Need I go on?  Not to mention that fact that it makes Intuition more broken then it was, and many people have used it to great success WITH Yawgmoth's Will.

If you're going to bring that up, Will already lets you run 2 of everything, and not just 2 of one card either, but 2 of everything that's in your graveyard.  I'd rather work on resolving Yawgmoth's Will than trying to fit in Regrowth, since Will wins by itself and Regrowth doesn't.  

Also, if you wanted me to I would gladly point out several other tournaments - not just one - where the winning Tog decks did not run Regrowth.  

Even then, there are still wrong choices in decks that place high.  

Finally, is all that "you didn't test it" necessary?  Why do you think Regrowth got cut months ago?

[Saucemaster]

Now that I've listened to all the cute reasons to NOT run Regrowth, please allow me to tell you the one reason you should...

Have you listened?  Because I don't think you have.  Would you care to actually respond to some of these cute and cuddly little reasons?

I don't know who or what you're playtesting against, but it's not working, because your proof is right there.  It's very obvious at this point that those of you opting not to use Regrowth never even TESTED the card.

As someone who has, a few times in the past, tested Regrowth in Tog and in GAT, and decided in both decks that it simply did not make the cut, I'll say that Steve's answer so far seems the best to me, and I'll rephrase it.

1) This is T1.  I think a well-tuned T1 decklist requires that every card in the deck be either immediately useful in your opening hand (or frequently useful against the right decks, e.g. StP) OR a potential game-winner on its own (e.g. YawgWill, Blood Moon, Decree).

2) Regrowth is neither.  Is Regrowth good?  Obviously.  So far, I haven't heard one person debate that.  If you put Regrowth in your deck, are you going to start losing games left and right and see your win %s dramatically drop off?  Obviously not.  In fact, in control-heavy metagames I think Regrowth could be a very good call.  The point, however, is that there are metagames in which it is simply not good enough to make the cut.  If you are likely to face Slavery, Stax, Storm-based combos, Dragon, Mask, BigO, and maybe a mirror or Keeper here or there, then no, I personally do not believe that Regrowth meets the very high standards necessary to warrant inclusion in a decklist tailored for such a bloodthirsty and deadly metagame.  That said, even in such a metagame, there are times when it will be broken simply because it is what it is.  Just don't let the fact that it's a good card blind you to the fact that it may or may not be *good enough*.

[Nameless]

So what do you plan on doing if the Yawgmoth's Will get's countered?  You see, I didn't include YWill because that's your 3rd copy of any given broken card when considering Regrowth.  But, I guess I'm the only person who's every actually lost a counter war over YWill.  I must be right?  Regrowth is exactly as good as the best card you have seen in the game thus far, with the sole exception of YWill, and it can retreive a previously lost YWill anyway.

You know what, maybe I am missing the big picture.  Maybe I should be taking advice on what to include in a 'Tog deck from people who aren't even playing in tournaments, much less winning with it.  And NO, that was NOT a cheap shot at anybody active in this thread.  It was a serious point.  I've done a lot of testing with 'Tog, and my builds are within 2 cards of the decklists posted at the aforementioned Duleman.  Maybe I'm drawn to them in that way.

I will direct one thing though...  Rico, you said you'd post other tournaments?  OK, show me.  Show me other winning 'Tog lists, so that I can learn.  Because, when I look at the last Duleman, I see THE metagame.  Yes, THE metagame...  Period.  Where else in the world to Vintage tournaments happen with such frequency and with that kind of turnout, other then on the other side of the pond?  There aren't any areas that even come close in America, and of that there can be no argument.  Now, since we've established what the metagame really is, then I ask again, where are your results?  You can't possibly use old results from that region, because the Duleman shows that the metagame there has already adapted; older results will prove nothing.  So what I want are results from tournaments, at least as recent, that show a different metagame.  THEN I will without hesitation submit to your perspective.

The European metagame IS the only metagame for Vintage, because everything else is just random bullshit from a tournament whipped out of nowhere.  Hell, no other region can even come close to boasting the numbers they put up, much less the frequency.

Now that I have established WHY I see things the way I do...

How exactly is Regrowth a bad call in that environment?  If it is not, and since that environment IS the metagame, then what's the problem with using it?

As for me?  I run FoF in my 'Tog, and I don't mind letting people split a pile while I'm sitting on a Regrowth.  Hell, I LOVE casting Intuition when I've got that little sorcery sitting in my hand.  It just wreaks havok on the choices your opponent makes, because they can't make a good one.  That's not my only logic though.  I play it because it wins.  Yea, sure people will sit on here and say no, it was Ancestral Recall that won you that match, or it was the Delta you got back to fetch that land you needed that won you that match, or shit maybe it was just the Mana Drain you retreived to seal the deal...  But, it's never Regrowth is it.  Nope.  That's OK, too.  I'll just let them keep believing that.

You guys are all right, I guess.  Regrowth doesn't do shit on it's own.  What a waste of 2 mana...

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote:



Quote:

Reasons not to run Regrowth:
1) It's not pitchable to Force.
2) It's not exactly a wonderful card in the opening hand, leading to increased mulligans.
3) It doesn't draw cards by itself. The comparison 2cc utility card is Demonic Tutor, which has a much more powerful use.
4) It is an off-color, meaning that the deck would need green against everything now, as opposed to just fetching a Trop last minute for Deed/Berserk.
5) What would you cut? This deck is chock full of broken cards already.




1.) The deck already has more than enough blue cards to pitch to FoW, that has never been a problem in my testing and the tournament. This is not Keeper.
2.)This was a problem a few times, but usually there is a draw3 to recur by turn 3 at the latest or something went terribly wrong.
3.)Demonic >>>> Regrowth, no contest. It's just pretty good anyway. (There are some more cards in the deck that are weaker than DT, IMO).
4.) As you can shuffle it back with BS if unnecessary, that is not that much of a problem. It came up once or twice, though, and is IMO the strogngest reason to not play Regrowth.
5.) Look at my decklist *G*



1) Considering all the other blue cards are really good, it's nice to have something once in a while that you don't need, which you can pitch. Merchant Scroll, when not useful, gets pitched. Regrowth, when not useful, doesn't.
2) If you're casting a draw3, why do you need Regrowth? Just use something to draw even more cards instead of wasting time with Regrowth. If not, use something else that helps set-up that strategy, as opposed to using a card that works best only after you've drawn a bunch.
3) My point was that if you're spending 2 mana to do something, it should actually do something, whether it's draw cards, take an extra turn, or whatever. Regrowth eats up mana and literally does nothing but change a card in hand. I wanted to excuse D.Tutor from that because it's just really good.
4) Already covered, but I'd also like to mention that if you do want to cast Regrowth and don't think it's a problem, it very well might become a problem because of an unsuspected Waste.
5) That was a euphemism for "run better cards" and not an inability to read your decklist.

1.) Merchant Scroll is quite nice, but I usually have enough tutoring and carddraw to find my draw-spells. Reusing them is a better IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE which may differ from yours, about 50% of the time, though. And I don't run bad cards just so that I have something that I can pitch to FoW instead of my good cards, that's not the quality of argumentation you're usually capable of.
2.) If I reuse my carddraw instead of tutoring for more, I have a higher chance that I'll find more carddraw during my future turns. That makes winning the control-mirror a lot easier. With earlier versions of Hulk, I often ran out of steam because I just didn't have more carddraw in my library and my opponent was able to recover from the early disadvantage. Reusing instead of tutoring also forces your opponents to spent more counters on your draw-arsenal, than they usually would have to.
3.) The card you compared to Regrowth was Merchant Scroll. Where does that differ from Regrowth? Scroll does nothing in itself aside from removing good cards from your library. As I said before, I almost never had a situation where Regrowth was without a good target.
4.) I try to stabilize my mana asap anyway, meaning putting a Tropical, a Sea/Swamp and as many basic Islands into play as possible. I hate having to wait for the G for Deed if I need that Deed. While it's easy to find any single card you want, when you need it, it's a lot harder to find two special cards at that time.
5.) Well than, lets look at this a little more in depth. Comparing my decklist to Smmenens/Carls and jps decklists, Regrowth would have been a Duress instead. Duress is, BEFORE Darksteel, one of the most overrated cards out there, IMO. I'd much rather be able to Regrowth an AK, Ancestral, Strip Mine or Pernicious Deed than Duressing my opponent in just about any matchup besides Stax and Neo-Long variants, both of which are at an all time low, again that is before Darksteel (and will probably change with Trinisphere and the popularization of Belcher.dec).

Stop being so cute with your decklists. Just because you can run a card doesn't mean that you should just because "I can pitch it to Force" or "I can shuffle it away."

Ok, that answer was a little sassy, but actually his question wasn't much better. Had he said "spell X is better, why not run that in Regrowths slot" instead of saying "there's nothing to cut for it" when I already HAD cut something for it, I probably wouldn't have used that kind of language. Sassy argument, sassy answer. What else than putting a *G* at the end of a sentence is necessary to show that something one says is NOT meant in an offensive manner?

Notice the two 'Tog decks that made T8 out of 95? Notice something they both have in common? It's the most recent Vintage tournament, and it features two 'Tog decks that both run Regrowth.

Well, to be fair, actually there were 5 tog decks present and 4 of them were built by CAB members and therefor closely resembled mine, including Regrowth.
The fifth player was Michael Heiduk (a Dülmen regular, too), who ran Smmenens and Carls decklist, including the 22 land manabase (which I still think will never work consistently in real life). He finished last of all the Tog-decks in the tournament. He was paired against CAB Hulk once, against Kim Kluck. Kim won the match 2:1 and managed a record around 5:2 if you include the games they played afterwards.

No, Regrowth does not belong in every deck with Green. Yes, it most certainly does belong in a 'Tog deck, because it's just broken. You're asking the wrong questions... The question you need to be asking is, "Why am I not running a card that is most broken in this very deck?"

This actually is exactly the reason why we where running Regrowth. It's much like what Roland answered when asked why his T2 MonowhiteControl ran a full 4 Mindslavers: "Because it can". We had the room and therefor saw no reason not to run it. Neither Merchant Scroll nor Duress are better cards in this deck at this moment of time.

Regrowth is strong in a Tog deck that is missing key power cards, allowing you to recur a big AK or something like that. However, with a full set of power and the AK draw engine, I just don't think you need to be casting any of it again.

That argumentation is IMO fundamentally flawed. The more you're missing power cards, the more basic broken targets for Regrowth your missing and that way Regrowth actually gets worth, IMO.
And in my experience it oftentimes is necessary to recast carddraw. With the pre-DA Tog I lost a lot of games just because the deck ran out of steam when the opponent managed to live through the initial carddrawing burst. This is less of a problem with the version including DAs, but having more options to keep the pressure up is not a disadvantage IMO.

I can imagine situations where it is strong - when both decks are in topdeck mode, etc. But I'd rather run cards to prevent topdeck mode from ever happening. It's kind of the same philosophy of why I don't bring in Swords against Tog when I play Keeper (in fact, I side my maindeck Swords out) - because I want cards to help me fight the early game card advantage wars, and Swords will not do that. Regrowth is too clunky to help me in the early turns against control. Demonic Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Gush, and the AK engine are what I need...

Actually Gush is imo really bad against control in the early game. I don't want to return lands to my hand, because I need mana to cast my own carddraw, protect it and stop my opponents draw.

If you're going to bring that up, Will already lets you run 2 of everything, and not just 2 of one card either, but 2 of everything that's in your graveyard. I'd rather work on resolving Yawgmoth's Will than trying to fit in Regrowth, since Will wins by itself and Regrowth doesn't.

No other card aside from Will wins games by itself. I still run them. And on the running 2 point, I'd actually run 3 of each of those cards, too, if I was allowed to. I will never contest that Yaggies is a hell of a lot better than Regrowth is. I think that Regrowth is better than Merchant Scroll and Duress in this deck and in this metagame, though.  

Having defended Regrowth that much (thx for the support nameless ), as I said in my very first post about this, Regrowth is probably the first card to be cut if I need to add something because of the metagame. Actually while I'm writing this, this was posted:

In fact, in control-heavy metagames I think Regrowth could be a very good call. The point, however, is that there are metagames in which it is simply not good enough to make the cut. If you are likely to face Slavery, Stax, Storm-based combos, Dragon, Mask, BigO, and maybe a mirror or Keeper here or there, then no, I personally do not believe that Regrowth meets the very high standards necessary to warrant inclusion in a decklist tailored for such a bloodthirsty and deadly metagame. That said, even in such a metagame, there are times when it will be broken simply because it is what it is. Just don't let the fact that it's a good card blind you to the fact that it may or may not be *good enough*.

This pretty much sums up a lot of the things I think about Regrowth. I heavily differ on the decks where I don't want to see Regrowth, though, but I heartily concede that Regrowths usefullness is defined by the expected metagame. The more control and aggro you see, the better Regrowth becomes. The more prison and combo you see, the worse Regrowth gets and the more necessary Duress becomes.

@nameless: I'd be pretty interested in comparing your tog-decklist to ours. If it is that similar, it might be usefull to discuss the reasons for the few differences and decide what is the optimal choice in those slots. To not turn this threat into a chat, would you PM it to me?

/edit: forgot this:

1) This is T1. I think a well-tuned T1 decklist requires that every card in the deck be either immediately useful in your opening hand (or frequently useful against the right decks, e.g. StP)

The part of your argument in brackets is actually what applies to Regrowth. Against control and aggro, Regrowth is almost always good and almost never dead. This sounds like frequently usefull against the right decks to me.

[Kerz]

Well, I'm not trying to be flamy, but your post is full of many things that get you to be looked upon as an asshole:
1. Posting opinions as facts
2. Insulting top players and fellow members
3. Posting "facts" with no proof

But- I just want to make a few rubuttals.

The European metagame IS the only metagame for Vintage, because everything else is just random bullshit from a tournament whipped out of nowhere. Hell, no other region can even come close to boasting the numbers they put up, much less the frequency.

That is simply perposterous. How can you even think about saying that? There are many metagames in the US that rival  the ones of Europe. Personnally, I play in a power tournament every week with at least 30-60% of the people being TMDers. The metagame and average playskill are obviously upper-teir. Look at the TMD open, that is the largest type one tournament, ever. Where was it? Good old NE. I'm not biased towards NE, its just where I play and what I know. The columbus metagame is pretty ridiculous too.

So what do you plan on doing if the Yawgmoth's Will get's countered?

You usually don't put yourself in a situation where it is LIKELY to be countered... seeing you run duresses and such. If it does get countered, its not your only out. Its obviously a huge bomb, but your deck plays many others.

How exactly is Regrowth a bad call in that environment? If it is not, and since that environment IS the metagame, then what's the problem with using it?

The problem is, that in type one we cut broken cards for more broken cards. I am not saying regrowth is a bad card per se, but its worse than many other cards that should go in the deck.

So please, try to be more curteous next time you make a point. Oh yeah, and try to make a point next time you make a point.

 

Aaron Kerzner

[jpmeyer]

My metagame's dad could beat up your metagame's dad

[Eastman]

The European metagame IS the only metagame for Vintage, because everything else is just random bullshit from a tournament whipped out of nowhere. Hell, no other region can even come close to boasting the numbers they put up, much less the frequency.

I doubt the Europeans would agree with this, you don't know what you're talking about or who you're insulting:

Yes, the idea of adding B2B to the deck is from TMD, the decklist was developed by us after hearing about that idea.

Mon's team were not the originators of the list, and he himself gave appropriate credit to TMD for the original idea.

Since last year's Gencon, B2B had not been played in Hulk until it showed up in the finals in Hadley in the following form on December 1st, 2003
!25 Mana sources
5 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
5 Blue Fetch
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
7 SoLoMoxen

!17 Draw/Utility
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

!15 Disruption
1 Mind Twist
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics

!3 Kill
3 Psychatog


The next week it showed up in the finals again, and we on Team Hadley tweaked it to include maindeck Deep Analysis.

The maindeck and sideboard of this NE version of
B2B Hulk represents the META in NE at the time, for reference the SB:

3 Deep Analysis
3 Ground Seal
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Gush
1 Naturalize
1 BEB
1 Berserk
1 Coffin Purge
1 Smother


Now look at the CAB deck and it's sideboard. It is obvious that it has been altered to reflect the German meta, but also obvious that the meta's have enough consistency that B2B Hulk builds retained cogency even crossing the Atlantic.


The NE build of B2B Hulk was then brought by many players to the major tournament in Waterbury, Connecticut in Mid-January. The meta here had already evolved beyond that in which B2B Hulk was strong and this build saw dissapointing finishes. The NE meta was in fact ahead of that in Germany in the development of B2B Hulk decks. This is a relevant example of our meta showing consistency and strength. The European and American metas may be geographically different, but they both foster impressive and creative deck design.

[Rico Suave]

I will direct one thing though...  Rico, you said you'd post other tournaments?  OK, show me.  Show me other winning 'Tog lists, so that I can learn.  Because, when I look at the last Duleman, I see THE metagame.  Yes, THE metagame...  Period.  Where else in the world to Vintage tournaments happen with such frequency and with that kind of turnout, other then on the other side of the pond?  There aren't any areas that even come close in America, and of that there can be no argument.  Now, since we've established what the metagame really is, then I ask again, where are your results?  You can't possibly use old results from that region, because the Duleman shows that the metagame there has already adapted; older results will prove nothing.  So what I want are results from tournaments, at least as recent, that show a different metagame.  THEN I will without hesitation submit to your perspective.

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=94

Two Tog decks, both without Regrowth.  First place played by none other than JP, who has been saying to you in this very thread that Regrowth is not making the cut.

Take Hadly/Waterbury ones, like Eastman just posted, without Regrowth.

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=96

#3, no Regrowth.

That's just from the recent events section on morphling.de.  Do you want me to dig up more?

So what do you plan on doing if the Yawgmoth's Will get's countered? You see, I didn't include YWill because that's your 3rd copy of any given broken card when considering Regrowth. But, I guess I'm the only person who's every actually lost a counter war over YWill. I must be right? Regrowth is exactly as good as the best card you have seen in the game thus far, with the sole exception of YWill, and it can retreive a previously lost YWill anyway.

You could just run Duress instead of Regrowth, so you know whether your Will will resolve or not (and have a better chance at doing so).

1.) Merchant Scroll is quite nice, but I usually have enough tutoring and carddraw to find my draw-spells. Reusing them is a better IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE which may differ from yours, about 50% of the time, though. And I don't run bad cards just so that I have something that I can pitch to FoW instead of my good cards, that's not the quality of argumentation you're usually capable of.
2.) If I reuse my carddraw instead of tutoring for more, I have a higher chance that I'll find more carddraw during my future turns. That makes winning the control-mirror a lot easier. With earlier versions of Hulk, I often ran out of steam because I just didn't have more carddraw in my library and my opponent was able to recover from the early disadvantage. Reusing instead of tutoring also forces your opponents to spent more counters on your draw-arsenal, than they usually would have to.
3.) The card you compared to Regrowth was Merchant Scroll. Where does that differ from Regrowth? Scroll does nothing in itself aside from removing good cards from your library. As I said before, I almost never had a situation where Regrowth was without a good target.
4.) I try to stabilize my mana asap anyway, meaning putting a Tropical, a Sea/Swamp and as many basic Islands into play as possible. I hate having to wait for the G for Deed if I need that Deed. While it's easy to find any single card you want, when you need it, it's a lot harder to find two special cards at that time.
5.) Well than, lets look at this a little more in depth. Comparing my decklist to Smmenens/Carls and jps decklists, Regrowth would have been a Duress instead. Duress is, BEFORE Darksteel, one of the most overrated cards out there, IMO. I'd much rather be able to Regrowth an AK, Ancestral, Strip Mine or Pernicious Deed than Duressing my opponent in just about any matchup besides Stax and Neo-Long variants, both of which are at an all time low, again that is before Darksteel (and will probably change with Trinisphere and the popularization of Belcher.dec).

1) That's fine.  I don't promote Merchant Scroll either, that was just an example as a blue card.
2) No, not tutor for more.  Just run draw.  Gush does the exact same thing you're describing.
3) Scroll was used once as a pitch example.  
4) Right.  I don't see how that makes the fact it's green any easier.
5) Actually, I would rather have Duress in control mirrors too.  It leads the way for big bombs, and in the Tog mirror you can grab opposing AK's.

[Saucemaster]

This pretty much sums up a lot of the things I think about Regrowth. I heavily differ on the decks where I don't want to see Regrowth, though, but I heartily concede that Regrowths usefullness is defined by the expected metagame. The more control and aggro you see, the better Regrowth becomes. The more prison and combo you see, the worse Regrowth gets and the more necessary Duress becomes.

That paragraph of mine was somewhat misleading, in retrospect.  I was trying to give an example of a possible series of matchups in a single tournament and then decide whether I'd like Regrowth MD--I agree that Regrowth is great in the control matchup, no question, and that in many (but I think probably not all) aggro matchups it's similarly good.  We both agree that it's weakest in the Prison and Combo matchups.  My thinking on this is, if you're not going to see much control, and the aggro matchups you may see could very well be decided by turn 2 or 3 (e.g. Mask), but you will probably face multiple rounds of Prison and Combo, then I really don't want Regrowth.  Mostly, I think Regrowth tends to be best against the decks that you're already very good against, and weakest against the decks you want the most help with--particularly combo and/or Slaver, against which Tog frequently needs a fair chunk of SB real estate to assure itself of a 2-1 win, since depending on the matchup Tog may have a slight-to-significant handicap in game one.  Game one against Keeper or other 4-color control, Tog is usually quite happy, and DA is more important than Regrowth by far in terms of mid/late-game gamebreakers.  Game one against aggro your typical plan is to Berserk on turn 5 or 6, and I'd say that in my testing Regrowth has probably been around 50/50 here: sometimes I have time to cast it before I just Berserk over, and about as often it would just clog my hand and slow me down.  Of the 50% of the time that I *can* cast it, it's frequently been--again, this is my testing and my experience--a win-more card, and simple card draw or even a dead card to pitch to Tog would have been just as well.  Of the remaining 25% of the time, it rarely actually saves a game.

That's why I haven't been running it.  But yes, it DOES make Intuition that much more broken, and it DOES let you reuse AKs for three, etc.  So there's no question that it's a good card and it's not a *bad* inclusion.  The real question is just whether it's the best inclusion.  Mon has me almost convinced that I need to try it out again, because he's actually, you know, ARGUED THE POINT, and done so with aplomb.

The part of your argument in brackets is actually what applies to Regrowth. Against control and aggro, Regrowth is almost always good and almost never dead. This sounds like frequently usefull against the right decks to me.

I've just had different experiences with aggro, it sounds like, and in my metagame I rarely expect to face an aggro matchup in which I really need Regrowth.  That doesn't mean that I'm necessarily right about the aggro matchup or that my metagame is representative of anyone else's, so I could be off-base here.  Since, despite what Nameless seems baselessly to believe, I *do* test, and *do* play in tournaments, along with most everyone who's been commenting in this thread so far, I will test.  If my prior experiences with Regrowth seem to be contradicted, then I'll gladly concede the point.

You guys are all right, I guess. Regrowth doesn't do shit on it's own. What a waste of 2 mana...

Ahem:

Is Regrowth good? Obviously. So far, I haven't heard one person debate that. If you put Regrowth in your deck, are you going to start losing games left and right and see your win %s dramatically drop off? Obviously not....  Just don't let the fact that it's a good card blind you to the fact that it may or may not be *good enough*.

Regrowth is a card whose utility rises as the game progresses. In my environment of heavy workshops and heavy combo, Regrowth does not make the cut

Yep, what a waste of two mana.

[Nameless]

I will direct one thing though...  Rico, you said you'd post other tournaments?  OK, show me.  Show me other winning 'Tog lists, so that I can learn.  Because, when I look at the last Duleman, I see THE metagame.  Yes, THE metagame...  Period.  Where else in the world to Vintage tournaments happen with such frequency and with that kind of turnout, other then on the other side of the pond?  There aren't any areas that even come close in America, and of that there can be no argument.  Now, since we've established what the metagame really is, then I ask again, where are your results?  You can't possibly use old results from that region, because the Duleman shows that the metagame there has already adapted; older results will prove nothing.  So what I want are results from tournaments, at least as recent, that show a different metagame.  THEN I will without hesitation submit to your perspective.

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=94

Two Tog decks, both without Regrowth.  First place played by none other than JP, who has been saying to you in this very thread that Regrowth is not making the cut.

Take Hadly/Waterbury ones, like Eastman just posted, without Regrowth.

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=96

#3, no Regrowth.

That's just from the recent events section on morphling.de.  Do you want me to dig up more?

Yes.

Those tournaments are after the fact, and the latest one I was using in my example is after both you mentioned.  You won't be able to find a newer one, yet, and thus the point I was making regarding the card...

Yes, it is a card defined by the metagame, but I also think that, in this case, the Duleman on 8 Feb IS the metagame.  That being said, I believe that currently Regrowth very much belongs in the deck.  When the metagame shifts, then I'll just as quickly concede that it needs to go.

The point, if I am correct here, is to find the best build for the current metagame and environment.  When those change then the card needs to go.

Fair enough?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

2) No, not tutor for more. Just run draw. Gush does the exact same thing you're describing.

In my experience Gush sucked against anything but aggro. I never cast it early vs control, because the setback on landdrops would cost me more than those two cards would help me, usually. It ended up being a bad Inspiration most of the time or just a win more card after I had already established myself. Regrowth otoh allowed me to still be ready to Drain while setting up my next burst of cards, usually even more cards than Gush would have netted me.

4) Right. I don't see how that makes the fact it's green any easier.

Well, that may make it easier because I almost always have a G-source on the table anyway, allowing me to cast Regrowth as soon as I see it...

Rico Suave wrote:

Nameless wrote:

I will direct one thing though... Rico, you said you'd post other tournaments? OK, show me. Show me other winning 'Tog lists, so that I can learn. Because, when I look at the last Duleman, I see THE metagame. Yes, THE metagame... Period. Where else in the world to Vintage tournaments happen with such frequency and with that kind of turnout, other then on the other side of the pond? There aren't any areas that even come close in America, and of that there can be no argument. Now, since we've established what the metagame really is, then I ask again, where are your results? You can't possibly use old results from that region, because the Duleman shows that the metagame there has already adapted; older results will prove nothing. So what I want are results from tournaments, at least as recent, that show a different metagame. THEN I will without hesitation submit to your perspective.

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=94

Two Tog decks, both without Regrowth. First place played by none other than JP, who has been saying to you in this very thread that Regrowth is not making the cut.

Take Hadly/Waterbury ones, like Eastman just posted, without Regrowth.

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=96

#3, no Regrowth.

That's just from the recent events section on morphling.de. Do you want me to dig up more?

Yes.

Those tournaments are after the fact, and the latest one I was using in my example is after both you mentioned. You won't be able to find a newer one, yet, and thus the point I was making regarding the card...

Yes, it is a card defined by the metagame, but I also think that, in this case, the Duleman on 8 Feb IS the metagame. That being said, I believe that currently Regrowth very much belongs in the deck. When the metagame shifts, then I'll just as quickly concede that it needs to go.

Sorry to have to go with the other side of the argument here, but this actually not totally correct.
The first link Rico postet, leads to the t8 of a tournament that was held unsanctioned and therefor allowed Darksteel. So for most intends and purposes, that actually gives a better look at the environment come Feb 20th than Dülmen does. Trinisphere will lead to an increased number of Stax-decks, and those will be A LOT tougher to beat than pre-DS versions. The threat of first turn Trinisphere, second turn Smokestack actually makes Duress a necessity again (so that you can take Sphere before they cast it when you've won the die-roll at least), and sadly there are few things to cut aside of Regrowth.

Going onto the long road to finally end that argument (I hope):
Keeper made up the majority of good decks in Dülmen since December. Benjamin Ribbecks success with Survival Madness in January also made it highly probable that copies of his deck would be out in force this time. Also Goblins and RG Beatz made appearances in the T8, making those the probable choice for budget players. The high presence of Keeper had removed Combo and Prison from the metagame close to completely. So the expected metagame was the following:

lots of Keeper
lots of SurvivalMadness
lots of Weenie-Aggro (either Goblins, FCG or RG)
few to no Prison (of which Hulk is very cabable of dealing with pre Trinisphere anyway)
few to no Combo.
few to no Tog (We actually started fearing other people would be playing B2B Hulk after CrazyCarls starcity-article came online 2 days before Dülmen. Luckily the only player who took a deck out of it used the 4C-build, which B2B still wrecks)

Duress sucks vs those aggro-decks and this deck still slaughters Keeper without them (out of about 20 testgames Keeper won a whole 2, once because the Hulk-player didn't find a single counter for Keepers Will in 30 cards of the deck, the other because Keeper was able to resolve 4! Ancestrals. None of us lost a match to Keeper in Dülmen, either, afaik).

Regrowth on the other hand is at least as good as Duress vs Keeper (actually better, IMO) and really good vs all the aggro-decks, especially because it allows you to use Deed twice or Intuition for Deed if you have Regrowth in hand.

Our metagame expactation was close to correct, only that the amount of Keeper was a lot lower and aggro was even more in force.
How much people could ignore combo during the last tournaments can be seen in the fact that all the regular or madness-based Dragon.decs placed inside the t10. The hate just had died down (my SB was full of convenient multi-pupose hate that also covered Dragon, though . I think I'm the only one who did beat the third placed Dragon.dec ).  

Had I been going into a metagame like that of Columbus, my MD would have included 2+ Duress for sure and Regrowth is the least necessary MD card in the deck, sadly.
I still stand to my opinion that Regrowth was the correct MD choice for the expected metagame, though.


/edit: Made the quotes work correctly and removed a typo and wrong chosen vocabulary.

[Nameless]

Fair enough, Mon, I can't argue with any of that.

I WANT to, but I can't.   :shock:

[Smmenen]

I think the important point, is that the German metagame has been devoid of Tog up until this point.  The result has been a jarring disconnect between the US metagame and the German metagame - one that had cast increasing suspicion upon the validity of that metagame.

The US Waterbury had 191 people and a deck with Tog has solidly won that tournament.  The claim that the German metagame is the metagame is outrageous beyond beleif.  I was one of the earliest people to proclaim the Dulmen as a Good Thing TM.  However, the German metagame has consistently been shown to be dominated not by the best decks, but by the best players - who do not necessarily play the best decks.  The Bode designed Dragon/Madness deck is ceratinly cool - but come next week, its officially dead or at least presumptively dead - Trinisphere is a serious threat to the success of that deck.  And no metagame could be THE metagame, without taking into account the metagame that is on everyone's mind.

[Hyperion]

Failure to keep this discussion on topic and from being personal will result in it being closed. If you people have personal issues with each other settle it through PMs, email, whatever...but not here.

[Zherbus]

This will be closed for now. This issue is frozen until I can deal with it properly.

Zherbus


EDIT: Re-opened.

[Smmenen]

SMMENENATOG 2K4

Updated: March 2004:

Mana:
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

Counters:
3 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Draw/Tutors:
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gush
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Broken/Answers:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Gorilla Shaman

Win Conditions:
3 Psychatog

Sideboard
1 Berserk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fire/Ice
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oxidize
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Coffin Purge

Discussed in my article:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6811

Thoughts?  If you believe there is a mana problem, then it is no thing to add another land to 23 mana - but as it stands, the mana is pretty damned good with Mana Crypt functioning very well.  The issue associated with the mana is the necessary incidence of mulliganing - that would be the only reason to go to 23.  I have found Shaman to be game breaking against Prison and Slavery.

Steve

[CrazyCarl]

Carl-A-Tog 2K4

Mana:
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

Counters:
3 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Draw/Tutors:
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gush
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction

Broken/Answers:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Gorilla Shaman

Win Conditions:
3 Psychatog

Sideboard
3 XANTID SWARM
1 Berserk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fire/Ice
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oxidize
1 Artifact Mutation (the nut)
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Coffin Purge(just for my meta, likely will change elsewhere)

I like having the extra lands due to a TON of Wastelands recently.  I dunno if I'm going to continue playing XANTID SWARM, but we'll see.  The MD is great and Gush is a MUST.  If you aren't playing it, you're playing a sub-optimal deck.

I -might- cut a land or two for Deep Analysis, but maybe not, we'll see.  Fact or Fiction is also very good.  I've had games against aggro where i'll cast turn 2 or 3 tog followed up by land, FoF, Gush, game. That's also dependant on what I did turn 1 to be completely fair, but still, it's a beating.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I like having the extra lands due to a TON of Wastelands recently. I dunno if I'm going to continue playing XANTID SWARM, but we'll see. The MD is great and Gush is a MUST. If you aren't playing it, you're playing a sub-optimal deck.

I -might- cut a land or two for Deep Analysis, but maybe not, we'll see. Fact or Fiction is also very good. I've had games against aggro where i'll cast turn 2 or 3 tog followed up by land, FoF, Gush, game. That's also dependant on what I did turn 1 to be completely fair, but still, it's a beating.

Can you give a little more justification for Gush, since you feel so strongly about it?  Is its main contribution that it helps goldfish faster against aggro?  It seems weak against control and workshop due to the tempo loss (and please don't quote Azhrei, I know...).  It seems the amount of times you could combo out are reduced since you don't run a third wish or merchant scroll.

Also, Xantid swarms seem terrible.  In lieu of running a build that supports Back to Basics, couldn't you just board Deep Analysis for the control matchups?  I noticed that both Carl and Smennen aren't sporting the Firestorm tech.  Care to comment?  I saw it annhiliate aggro and artifact fat this weekend.

[Eastman]

I noticed that both Carl and Smennen aren't sporting the Firestorm tech.  Care to comment?  I saw it annhiliate aggro and artifact fat this weekend.

Yah I have to admit that I was completely mistaken with my initial judgements on the card. Firestorm is a wrecking ball.

[jpmeyer]

Wait, is it really awesome or is everyone just fucking with me?  I hadn't seen like a T8 list or anything yet from any of the weekend tournaments outside of Dülmen.

[Eastman]

Wait, is it really awesome or is everyone just fucking with me?  I hadn't seen like a T8 list or anything yet from any of the weekend tournaments outside of Dülmen.

Sam Antill used it here in Hadley on Saturday (the lists are up) and I have to say it did some serious wrecking.


In my arrogance I didn't even bother to test the card. I'm still a bit skeptical but I have to say, it performed in a few situations very well and seriously impressed me.

[Kowal]

Likewise, I laughed at it, but I did see it wipe the board of something like an immenent ~30 points of damage, leaving him with the Yawgmoth's Will on top via Mystical.