[Deck] Smmenen's Hulk Smash 2K4

[Smmenen]

This Tog deck is designed to beat the new rise of Aggro Decks, Aggro Control decks, and Control decks that have emerged in the wake of the new Restrictions.  In particular, it is built for the mirror and for Big O (which it annhiliates).

The first key to beating Control with Tog is realizing that you are playing a COMBO DECK - you MUST play the beatdown.  I ALMOST played this deck at the Waterbury becuase I knew that a Control deck that can play Aggro or Control almost always wins.  But I also beleive that pure Combo is too good not to play.  

If Long is not good in a metagame, here is what I'd play:

Smmenen's Tog:

4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
4 Brainstorm

3 Tog
3 Cunning Wish

1 GUSH
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Deep Analysis (Can be Fact or Fiction)
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist

1 Pernicious Deed

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 MANA CRYPT
1 Black Lotus

No Wastelands, no Shamans.  This is key - these cards make the deck more Controlish.  The deck is built in order to Goldfish as QUICKLY as possible.  

SB: (not finalized)
1 Berserk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Artifact Mutation
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Coffin Purge
1 DA
1 Blue Elemental Blast

I am sure i'm missing something from the SB.

Maindeck Gush allows faster goldfishing - and you always see it by turn 5.  Deed is too amazing not to run one of.  Three Cunning Wish are absolutely necessary to goldfish as quickly as possible.

When sitting down to play the mirror - GO aggro.  Play your Tog and force threats into play.  Use your Duresses aggressively.  Use you card drawing aggressively.  You may get forced intot he control position - but if you have Active Library going, this is not difficult to do.  Duresses will make the mirror match FAR more bearable where you get to play all your AKs, but you clear the way for thiers.  This solves the AK mirror problem to a very large degree.  You also have md DA to Intution for just in case.  

Mana Crypt is, I am convinced, a permanent addition to this archetype as it is just so powerful and fits the casting cost scheme so well with Cunning Wish, Intuition, Yawg Will and the like.

I suggest if you are not conviced to perform the following test.  Place Mana Crypt Aside - then goldfish into 6 cards and add Mana Crypt as your 7th.  See what happens.  I'm convicned you'll agree.  

Finally, Duress is also amazing against Combo, although surprisingly bad against Workshop and Big O - it at least provides some cards to SB out for lots of good hate.

Have Fun and Good Luck.

Stephen Menendian

[Eastman]

Your SB is missing wishable card draw. Scrying or FoF generally fit the bill.

[Smmenen]

Um. No.  

The Tog SBs are inherently tight and there is nothing to cut.  

Berserk: uncuttable.  Win Condition, Combo Piece.
Blue Elemental Blast - necessary Blood Moon answer
3 Coffin Purge - I would not play in a Dragon/Rector field without three.  You need to sb in 2 and leave one in the board. Two is sometimes enough, but three seals the deal.
1 Red Elemental Blast - one to wish for for the Tog mirror.
3 Xantid Swarm - fulfils the rest of the mirror match answers.
1 Deep Analysis - not strictly necessary, but also generally helpful for other Accumulated Knowledge mirrors.  
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Oxidize
All three cards are absolutely KEY answers to artifacts in various scenarios.  The Oxidize is the key for the tight situation in which you only have one mana to spare after wishing.  The Mutation is absolutely the most optimal target against lock parts like Smokestack and Tangle Wire, but someimtes Rack and Ruin is the only one you can get.  And if Chalice is down at various costs, you need all three to answer the Chalice.
1 Pernicious Deed
This card is a real excellent answer and not having a second to move into the maindeck seems like a real mistake.
That leaves
1 Vampiric Tutor.  This card is simply the card you can Wish for to find good stuff.

Now despite all this, I still feel the need to have a Fire/Ice to answer multiple Welders.  At least the Blue Elemental Blast can answer one.  But other wise, all the basis are covered at the moment.  If I were to cut any card for a Fact, it would be DA, but I would have to be convinced that having access to the fact game one is worth losing game 2-3 multiple DAs.  That is a tough bar to reach.  

Steve

[Westredale]

your sb is missing a way to deal with my buddy and dearest friend, Maze of Ith.

[Smmenen]

If someone has Maze, Fire/Ice is good.  Like I said, I'd like to have Fire/ice, but at the moment I am unwilling to cut any of these cards.  The maindeck answer, of course, is Time Walk + Yawg Will + multiple Togs.  There isn't much else I can do without Fire/ice./

Steve

[dicemanx]

Not many decks (if any) run Maze of Ith apart from Landstill. However, I don't SB in Mazes against Tog with Landstill, as there is no room for such luxuries. Space has to be made for Crypts and REBs,and maybe even CotV. As Steve points out, Hulk has the tools to stop Maze of Ith, so they are not good stoppers unless you're lucky enough to see multiples early in the game.

On to my question: Is there any particular reason why this combo deck runs only three togs rather than four? I know that there's a lot of card drawing which can find a tog quickly, but there's quite a difference between 3 and 4 togs when you want to rapidly assume the role of the beatdown deck.

[jpmeyer]

I almost never need to get Wishable draw.  It's weird.  I usually ran my FoF in the sideboard but I still found myself preferring to go for Vampiric Tutor mostly because I usually didn't want to spend 3 mana and then another 4 mana when I could just fetch an AK and spend 4 mana and then 2 mana.

[DavidHernandez]

this build looks a lot like the current GAT builds.  Gush is absolutely required in the main, and Fact or Fiction (while not a good fit in other deck types) seems to be in all of the winning GAT builds.  Deed is also a staple card, as are 3 wishes.  I think that these cards are a key reason that GAT is still playable.

I disagree with Eastman's comment about Scrying being a possible SB Wish target because it will remove cards from the graveyard that will be needed to pump the Tog. If I'm missing something here, please point it out.

while i like Oxidizes casting cost and ability to stop regeneration, did you
find Naturalize to be "that bad"?  The flexibility of being able to stop enchantments seems too important to give up. What was it like during the testing?

Mana Crypt is an interesting addition. Is the possible loss of life > Sol Ring? I'd be interested in hearing how you came to the final decision on Mana Crypt.

thanks,
dave

[Kerz]

@David Hernandez: The dissynergy between Scrying and Tog is  nonexistant. Although I dont reccomend it, look at it this way:

Removing 6 cards from the grave (-3 power) nets you 1 card in grave and 6 in hand (+9.5 power). Losing 3 tog points is HIGHLY negligible when drawing many cards. If needed you can just zerk over.

[DavidHernandez]

Kerz:

ok, i see that.  My disagreement is wrong at a fundamental level, because the same argument could be used AGAINST YawgWill, and we all know that cutting Will would be stupid.

thanks.

dave.

[Smmenen]

Mana Crypt is an interesting addition. Is the possible loss of life > Sol Ring? I'd be interested in hearing how you came to the final decision on Mana Crypt.

thanks,
dave

Life loss?  Try it.  Listing why Mana Crypt works is not nearly as persuasive as seeing it in action.  If you don't beleive me - when you next test, instead of drawing 7 cards, draw 6 and insert mana crypt into your hand.  

Steve

[CopperLeaf]

The deck is built in order to Goldfish as QUICKLY as possible.

If that is the case, is there a reason not to run 4 togs main?  Seems like youd be able to go off faster if you had one sooner.

Also, do you find that the Library is pulling its weight?  With duresses and such are you really at 7 cards for very long?

[Smmenen]

I should have stated this at the outset.  This deck is built to fit ANY game plan.  The goal is NOT solely to win ASAP.  Against New Aggro and Control it certainly is.  The deck is flexible - that is one of the reasons it is so strong.  Its' flexible but it can do things the other deck couldn't.

I will probably find room for a fourth tog - possibly at the expense of Mystical.  It feels like Cheating, but I almost never can't find one - and you rarely need more than one.  This deck is very strong, and I'm going to try and figure out next how to win the mirror.

Steve

[Windfall]

Yes, mirror matches are always difficult because a lot of it comes down to who draws the best opening hand.  With two decks that have 50 or more of the same cards, skill is as important as ever, but the importance of luck goes up quite a bit.

With Tog, it only gets worse because AKs become very dangerous unless you're casting them after your opponent casts them.  It'd be like two burn decks each packing Kindle.  With AK as the deck's usual card engine, it's hard to not cast them.

This deck would make an interesting article for the matchup series you're doing, Steve.  It sounds stupid to do one on a mirror, but anyone playing Tog is bound to be paired with another during a large tournament at some point.  Information gathered in testing the mirror would be very useful to all of us.

It seems to me that Duress and Xantid Swarm will be key players in the mirror.  Deep Analysis is obviously strong, so I will avoid going into that.

I would think that playing defensively is the wrong choice.  One might think that pitching AK to FoW is safe because he doesn't want to cast them before his opponent, but that only lets the opponent cast his anyway because you're throwing yours away.  Not good!

I'll bet that the best strategy is to try to go off as quickly as possible.  This is why Steve's Tog build will be successful because it runs the cards to help you do this.  I would use Duresses as soon as I could and try to get opponent's AKs in the graveyard.  If you can get your three or more cards from your AKs, then you'll probably be in a position to stop your opponent's AKs.  If he does not have any, even better - you're in a position to win.

Sideboard cards from Steve's list include Coffin Purge, Red Blast, Deep Analysis, and Xantid Swarm, all of which are strong vs. Tog.  I'm not sure if I would use two Pernicious Deeds though because it's something that would stall me out and delay the kill for a turn.  This could hurt in the mirror, and I might even side the maindeck Deed out.  On the other hand, it's a great reset button if you had a slow start.  It destroys enemy Togs easily, and allows you to try and recover without pressure from the other side of the board.  Thing is, when Hulk is about to win, it's really hard to turn things around even if you do destroy the enemy Tog.  It can just cast Will and win.

I think it would be a very tough match, but fun at the same time because it would be so intense.  My experiences with mirror matches were always crazy.  By the time they were over I was so worn out!

     ~Mark B.

[Smmenen]

I think you summarized the whole match for me!  You only left one part out.  Deed is good to kill an opposing Deed which is preventing you from Berserking your Tog.

Steve

[Windfall]

You only left one part out. Deed is good to kill an opposing Deed which is preventing you from Berserking your Tog.

Duly noted.  I failed to notice that there is no Wishable enchantment removal.  Perhaps the one is good then, but are two needed?  My gut tells me that one would be enough, but only testing will tell.

RE: 4th Tog
It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to find a Tog with all the fast draw bursts Hulk gives you.  Three is a good number to start with, and if you feel that it's enough, you shouldn't add another because the rest of the cards are so good.

Mystical tutor can find some very juicy cards (Wish, Will, big AK).  It also finds Mind Twist after a respectable Mana Drain.  This is huge.  Not to mention, Tutor shuffles and you run four Brainstorms.  Cutting this is a tough call, and I promise you that you would notice its absence.

So what to cut?  That is a damn good question that I don't have the answer to...  Listen deep within yourself and you will hear three is the right number.

     ~Mark B.

[CopperLeaf]

With no maindeck removal, other than deed, what does the deck do against someting like a first turn monkey?

[jpmeyer]

Not care THAT much since as long as you get your Time Walk effect, the Mox has done its job.  Furthermore, it adds little bits more damage to your Tog.

[CopperLeaf]

So now that this has been posted for awhile, is there any concensus as to whether or not this is the optimal build?

Since were cutting wastelands and such, the colored mana has gone up.  Could Sol Ring also be played in addition to mana crypt?

 

[Windfall]

Add Sol Ring in place of what?  Mox Pearl is strictly better because it does not require valuable colored mana to cast and it provides the same boost that a Sol Ring would - 1 colorless mana.  Granted, the turns after the Sol Ring is cast it is better (but not always, sometimes you don't want 2 colorless but rather 1).  I think that Mana Crypt takes Sol Ring's place because it is strictly better for the same reason that Pearl is better than the Ring.

     ~Mark B.

[Zherbus]

I think this might be a more metagame dependant build. While the lack of Wastelands may help go towards beating aggro and prison decks quicker, they seem to be a much needed aspect of the mirror as shown by JP's performance wit ha 4 Strip build.

[Azhrei]

I saw some interesting builds that don't run green and have a heavier LD element, playing more like a very fast UR Phid deck than a combo-- which I think could be a better choice in certain environments. Since you can run a high number of basic Islands with that build, when you expect a lot of LD or aggressive control decks that style might be better suited to the field. I think Steven Sadin has a Hulk build that doesn't get the huge and green.

[Eastman]

Add Sol Ring in place of what?  I think that Mana Crypt takes Sol Ring's place because it is strictly better for the same reason that Pearl is better than the Ring.

     ~Mark B.

 

I saw some interesting builds that don't run green and have a heavier LD element, playing more like a very fast UR Phid deck than a combo-- which I think could be a better choice in certain environments. Since you can run a high number of basic Islands with that build, when you expect a lot of LD or aggressive control decks that style might be better suited to the field. I think Steven Sadin has a Hulk build that doesn't get the huge and green.

Not running Sol Ring is a mistake, as is cutting the green element from the deck, gutting the combo abilities of a build obviously streamlined to be as fast as possible.

Cutting a color is the right idea - but it is red that should be cut.  Steve's build has all of 3 red cards in the sideboard, arguably replaceable and certainly not worth the 2 maindeck Volcanic Islands.

If I were going to play this anywhere in NE this weekend(I can't speak for other metas), I would go with:

-2 Volcanic Island, +1 Sol Ring, +1 Island

SB:

-1 Coffin Purge
-1 Rack and ruin
-1 Artifact Mutation
-1 REB

+2 Ground Seal
+1 P-Deedy
+1 Naturalize

Ground Seal shuts down Welders and Dragon. It is a terrifically strong and versatile SB card.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

For a different take on Tog, I used this to go undefeated this Dülmen, splitting with Benjamin Ribbeck (with MadDragon, wait and see ) in round 7. I took second on tiebreakers. My CAB Teammember Kim Kluck took 6th (5-1-1) with a 2 card different version. The other players running it (CAB member Lennart Freitag and another player we share tech with) went 5-2 and 4-2-1 respectively, the draw between Kim and Lennart mid-tourney being intentional because of the team-mirror.  

Hulk - CAB Version

Combo:
3 Psychatog

Protection:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Carddraw & Tutors
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
2 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
1 Library of Alexandria

Random Brokeness:
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
1 Strip Mine

Special Operations:
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Back to Basics

Speed:
7 SoLoMox

Mana
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

SB:
1 Gush
1 Berserk
2 Naturalize
2 Vendetta
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Crumble
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Deep Analysis
1 Stifle
1 Back to Basics
1 Coffin Purge

Yes, the idea of adding B2B to the deck is from TMD, the decklist was developed by us after hearing about that idea.
We do not consider Tog to be a combo-deck that can play control but a control-deck that can play combo (maybe my influence, this plays a hell of a lot like The Shining   ).
I can't see how you're not regularly screwed running only 22 manasources, but that might be our shaman- and strip-heavy metagame atm or my bad luck when keeping 1 land + Brainstorm hands. I personally would definitly not play less than at least 24 mana.
Mystical was skipped in favor of Vampiric as that can search Deed and B2B while the lifeloss is neglegible.
I'll be happy to answer any questions here or in a new threat (as this is not excatly similar to Smmenens build but Tog nonetheless).

[Windfall]

It seems to me that Gush would be very strong in a Tog build that packs Back to Basics.  Perhaps you should try to find room for it.  It is already strong in Hulk and if you're duals can be tapped down, Gush will untap them for you.  With only 2 Wish, you're not so likely to cast it often.  I think it is a maindeck choice unless you have 3 Wishes, and even then I like it in the maindeck.  It works with Tog and GAT ran 4 for a reason!

     ~Mark B.

[Smmenen]

Gush is insane.  Anyone who plays Tog shoudl read Adrian Sullivan's recent article on the archetype.

He ran an experiement - he put a little piece of paper in the sleeve of a random card and goldfished seeing on average, over a series of games, how long it took him to see that card.

The point is that with the tremendous draw, brainstorms/fetches, and so on, he saw that random card by turn 5 in his EXTENDED deck.  

The point is, Singletons are AMAZING in Tog.  As such, a restricted Singleton with insane synergy with Psychatog and Library of Alexandriad: GUSH should DEFINATELY have a slot.  Very shortly I'm going to unveil my new Tog deck and my final analysis on the deck and propose some variants for the summer.

Steve

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

It seems to me that Gush would be very strong in a Tog build that packs Back to Basics. Perhaps you should try to find room for it. It is already strong in Hulk and if you're duals can be tapped down, Gush will untap them for you. With only 2 Wish, you're not so likely to cast it often. I think it is a maindeck choice unless you have 3 Wishes, and even then I like it in the maindeck. It works with Tog and GAT ran 4 for a reason!

As such, a restricted Singleton with insane synergy with Psychatog and Library of Alexandriad: GUSH should DEFINATELY have a slot.

I had Gush in the MD as a 61st card during testing until the evening directly before the tournament. I wanted to go down to 60 cards, so something needed to be cut.
After playing with Gush for some time, I decided I only really liked it vs Aggro when I wanted to combo out ASAP. Most of the time, I didn't want to play Gush till I was ready to kill protected, not wanting to slow down my mana development (where GAT was able to ignore that issue because of Fastbond and the whole setup of the deck). That made it feel like a win-more card quite often.
The deck works pretty well under B2B without additional untap-options anyway. I therefor decided to run it SBed vs Aggro and it conveniently provided me with wishable carddraw.

There is a reason extended-Tog doesn't regularly run any Gushes, too. GAT was a very different deck, IMO.  

He ran an experiement - he put a little piece of paper in the sleeve of a random card and goldfished seeing on average, over a series of games, how long it took him to see that card.

The point is that with the tremendous draw, brainstorms/fetches, and so on, he saw that random card by turn 5 in his EXTENDED deck.

I read that article, too, and I agree with that statement, I usually have no trouble finding whichever single card I want in short order.
I just didn't have the feeling Gush was that good after playing it for some time. It would make perfect sense running it in place of the Regrowth, though, which is mainly a placeholder for the SB-card that'll help the current matchup the most.
As it is, Regrowth was nothing short of amazing in a deck that almost always has a cheap draw3 in it's graveyard, though. It also makes Intuition stronger by allowing it to become a true tutor if really necessary (wanted card, Will, Regrowth).

[Smmenen]

I agree.  Regrowth is insane.  I will probably have one Shaman in my deck as well for upper tier environs becuase it means you don't lose if they resolve Chalice at 3.  There are good reasons not to run Regrowth though.

Steve

[Nameless]

I agree.  Regrowth is insane.  I will probably have one Shaman in my deck as well for upper tier environs becuase it means you don't lose if they resolve Chalice at 3.  There are good reasons not to run Regrowth though.

Steve

So what ARE the good reasons to not run Regrowth?  Just a meesly 2 mana seems like a fine deal for another Time Walk, Ancestral, or whatever...  And as was already pointed out, it's quite good with Intuition.

So yea, I'd very much love to hear some good reasons NOT to run Regrowth, please.  

[Rico Suave]

Reasons not to run Regrowth:
1) It's not pitchable to Force.
2) It's not exactly a wonderful card in the opening hand, leading to increased mulligans.
3) It doesn't draw cards by itself.  The comparison 2cc utility card is Demonic Tutor, which has a much more powerful use.
4) It is an off-color, meaning that the deck would need green against everything now, as opposed to just fetching a Trop last minute for Deed/Berserk.
5) What would you cut?  This deck is chock full of broken cards already.