[Deck] Enchantress, a return to respectability?

[Jawman16]

I have found that more swarms are great against control.  I dropped the Chants from your build to add one more and one more STP.  I play heavy aggro so I want more kill cards.  Humilty is awesome against Tog.  It forces them to waste a wish to kill it assuming they can even do that with Groves all around.  I don't know how many Groves you are running but I find 4 to be a must.  They are soooo good as tutors and lock cards.  It is always nice to replenish into double sterling grove lock.  The card is a house.

     I have been running Moat as well as Humilty and have had success with it.  Granted the best decks in my meta are a G/U aggro deck and some Tog.  I just love being able to tutor up Moat and shut down entire decks.  And if for some reason I need to play both cards you can always seal one of them and then attack for the kill.

    I player against a Stax deck online and beat him pretty soundly.  (Replenished 3 Sylvans, 3 Seals, Words of Worship, Ground Seal, Worship, Mesa)  This deck has the permanent count to handle the lock quite well and after board it is really no contest with Sacred Ground on the board barring a first turn explosion.  Ground Seal is also bomb.  This is card I have been looking for for months.

    Holistic Wisdom/ Strip Mine is tech.   But beyond that I find myself never using the card.  I never really find myself trading enchantments for enchantments except against control.  But even then I usually bait them into countering my lesser bullets.  What are the other merits of the card beyond land kill that you have found?  I am debating dropping it.

[SpencerForHire]

Me and some of my team mates were thinking about a deck a month or so back.  Different view, same thing.

Heres a basic decklist, no exacts, probably needs testing in appropriate meta.

//Control
3 [card]The Abyss[/card]
3 [card]Nether Void[/card]

//CA
1 [card]Demonic Tutor[/card]
1 [card]Vampiric Tutor[/card]
4 [card]Argothian Enchantresss[/card]
4 [card]Enchantress Presence[/card]
2 [card]Sylvan Library[/card]
1 [card]Yawgmoths Will[/card]
1 [card]Yawgmoths Bargain[/card]
1 [card]Necropotence[/card]

//Kill
4 [card]Troll Ascetic[/card]

//Manabase
4 [card]Wild Growth[/card]
4 [card]Dark Ritual[/card]
4 [card]Treetop Village[/card]
4 [card]Mishras Factory[/card]
4[card]Bayou[/card]
4[card]Wasteland[/card]
1[card]Stripmine[/card]
1[card]Dustbowl[/card]
4 [card]Polluted Delta[/card]
3 [card]Elvish Spirit Guide[/card]

Cant remember any more.. But thats the basic list.
Definately a control enchantress. Maybe duress and mind twist.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Jawman16: Well, it's true that I've only gotten it active once. Normally against control they just see it and figure it's a total bomb worthy of countering (since I only play it when my graveyard is huge), so I don't have as much experience seeing its in-play potential. Looking at my list, some of the other potential interactions I see are (a) pitching Swarms for Argothians, (b) poor enchantment functionality. I'm strongly considering bringing the fourth Replenish back to the maindeckand ditching Wisdom.

From my last list:
//Maindeck
-1 Holistic Wisdom
-2 Orim's Chant
+1 Replenish
+1 Xantid Swarm
+1 Sylvan Library
//Sideboard
-1 Replenish
+1 Carpet of Flowers

I'm hoping to get some testing against Slavery today, because I'm concerned that might be a dangerous difference from Stax.

Gimbles: That really looks like a different deck with an overlapping draw engine. I have no basis for comment.

[SpencerForHire]

It was really a skeleton build, I have no real interest to continue working on it, and it was from quite a bit ago.  But its there for anyone who wants to try it out and fix it.

[Jawman16]

While the idea of another Replenish sounds nice, I have found in the past that often times it is a dead card in your opening hand.  I really like three MD because you are bound to draw one when you need it.  Four becomes almost as waste as you will find your self with multiple Replenishes in your opening draws.  As I have said before though I do not face much control except for Tog so I never really need the 4th card.  If you play against heavy Keeper though I could see the 4th one being nice.  I will keep mine in the board until I see a need to put it in.

[Leakycow]

Dr. Sylvan brought up 2 points as to why the Argothian engine is better than Presence:  casting cost and Worship.  Just for testing I swapped 3 Argothians for 3 Presences (making 4 Presence and 1 Argothian total) and while I usually didn't have too big a problem casting the Presence, it was 90+% of the time 1 turn slower than casting an Argothian would have been.  For me, humility will stay in my Parfait deck.

I mentioned this before, but Holistic Wisdom has served me on more than one occasion to get a Replenish back (ditching a not-needed-at-the-moment Duress usually).  Besides Strip Mine, Serra's Sanctum and LoA are frequently need resurrection, too.

I plugged in Dueling Grounds and am pretty pleased with it...it's helping me in aggro matches where I've stalled them out (usually a Moat or Worship) but they're one topdeck from a naturalize or Wonder from rushing in for 10+ points of damage.  Whlie a Grove would protect the Worship lock, Groves don't do anything to stop Wonder-inspired flying armies from beating your Moat.  Just a personal preference based on my meta matchups, I guess.

Just curious...how many of your Swarms are seeing the light of day?  In other words, how often are they immediately killed by bolts/stp's that would otherwise be dead cards?

[Jawman16]

LeakyCow addresses a good point on the Swarm.  I have found that they get Fired or sent to make some veggies every game in which they would actually be effective.  I may go back to some form of anti-control enchantment b/c of this.  Maybe a MD carpet of flowers and a City of Solitude/Choke.  I do find that dropping the swarms first turn can help you for a few turns but after awhile they get torched by otherwise dead cards.  I will try the Carpet of Flowers MD this weekand at two tournaments and report my findings.  I may just run two of them instead of one carpet/one City of Solitude.  The carpet should give you enough mana to basically break through any counter wall or serve as counter bait itself.

[Toad]

Xantid Swarms are SIDEBOARD material. Never, ever, run these maindeck. Game 1, Swords and Co will be dead cards in your opponent's hand. Game 2, they'll be sided out and your Swarms will be fine. City of Solitude is the way to go maindeck.

And I'm back to my original tricolor build with Argothian Enchantresses because Humility is just useless when you have Moat and the Worship lock.

Dr Sylvan: the matchup vs the Workshop Slavery is hoooooooooorrible unless you draw an early Ground Seal and they don't have Cunning Wish. You are way to slow to be dangerous and half your cards are useless in this matchup.

[BreathWeapon]

Before everybody starts throwing away their Presence Engines, have you guys tried using 1 MD Perncious Deed? Being able to clear the board and then Replenish back your draw engine is insanely good and I think the MD Workshop isn't as great as the MD Humility and Balance, IMO.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I am also noticing that Swarms aren't performing in the maindeck. Every once in a while it provides a huge gain if they have no removal, but the rest of the time it just brings that removal right onto it like a magnet. I haven't missed black much at all, though. The rock-solid mana base is my preference. The only card I kinda wish I still had around is Words of Waste, and I'm doing alright without it.

BreathWeapon: Every time I try Deed, I re-discover that a plan relying on the resolution of two 3-4 cc spells is not a good one. I like my Karmic Justice better.

Toad: Confirmed. Mindslaver totally trounced me. I guess you must be familiar with Slavery a little. ;)

Next up: Hulk Smash, which should put a lot of pressure on this, hopefully.

[Jawman16]

@Toad.  I think you are right in that the Tri-color version is the best.  I have found that the G/W version is good but not as powerful even though the manabase is more stable.  I am willing to get pounded by Wastelands for the sheer power that black brings to the table.

     I have found that Duress is way too good in this deck to cut black.  Believe or not one of the best players in my area has 3 tranquilities in his SB.  WTF!?!?  So I need a way to combat that worthless card.  It can also nail that key prison card (Stack, Wire etc...)  and bust through control for the win.

     This all being said I am going back to a W/G/b build.  The problem here is that a Wasteland or two needs to be cut but I think it is a small price to pay for such bombs like The Abyss and Words of Waste.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Hulk seems to have a somewhat unfavorable, but nearly-balanced game one with the GW version. My worries often came from his Wastelands (and Stifles), and my wins often came from my Wastelands, so I'm unconvinced black would help, reducing my own Strip count and increasing my vulnerability to his. If I could run more than six basics, I would, and I'm currently tinkering with what to cut for mana #27, which would likely be a Forest (for some reason my mulligans were frequent yesterday, which has convinced me back down to 3 Replenish main). I've been reaping a lot of benefits from Choke, but even against Hulk I haven't felt the urge to cast Humility if Argothian is on the table--Deed is just too threatening, and I've several times contemplated trying to edge my life up to 60+ so it's near-impossible to be killed by a Tog.

[Jawman16]

I have been contemplating running a Story Cirlce in the Humility spot.  It is mana intensive I know but it can shut down tog pretty well and handles other random aggro fairly decently.  I think the fact that it does not neuter your draw makes it that much better.  Basically I am trying to find another bomb on par with The Abyss because I really miss that card.  Humilty took its place in the two color deck but it just has not performed as well as it should.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I think you'll still want Presence over Argothians. As you said, you're hesitant to drop Humility with the girls on the table, but we all (more or less) agree that Humility wins games right now. So it's only logical to play with the engine that Humility doesn't hurt. Also it's much less Deedable. I completely agree about adding Black. G/W is optimal right now.

[Jawman16]

I played in a small tournament tonight and went undefeated losing only one game with a G/W build.  The manabase is the key.  Some many times my basics were llaughing at the opponent's Wastelands.  I found myself not having to use Humility that much.  I could get my hands on a Story Circle before the matches so I was stuck and the card was not really too spectacular.  I always found myself searching for a better card like Worship or Moat.  I did not play against any Stax or Tog though so I really cannot realistically say whether of not Humility works for me.  

I love Sacred Mesa sooo much.  The card is ridiculously powerful as it handles all creatures barring tog very well.  Morphling gets PWN3d all day long.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Story Circle is definitely the wrong move. I frequently delay playing Mesa simply for lack of sufficient open white mana; there's only thirteen sources in the whole deck. In fact, I'm strongly considering abandoning the Orim's Chants simply for lack of use. I'd rather play more enchantments

I played against TnT today and found myself successfully fighting through Pyrostatic Pillars surprisingly well. I've never been so glad Replenish costs four. However, I never saw one of the savage turn one Juggie games, so I don't know if that matchup is actually better than Madness.

[shilleagh]

Having tried both the budget and powered versions of the deck, I tend to gravitate more towards the straight G/W version. Not that I have anything against G/W/B, I find that the mana base (at least in the builds I've tried) is too shaky and too easily wastelanded, sinkholed, etc. In regards to the kill however, I've been experimenting with something besides Sacred Mesa. Words of Wilding seems like a good choice to me, at least. Consider that while it does cost one more mana to play, it is green (and thus suits the core of the G/W version), only costs 1 to use the ability, puts a 2/2 into play, and furthermore, with the sheer amount of card draw in the deck (enchantress, presence, sylvan, etc) it is quite easy to amass a large amount of bears for an alpha strike, or even little beats.

What do you people think?

[Toad]

Losing cards is bad, even if you are making bear tokens. Pegasii fly (hence evade Moat) and can be generated faster than the bears. Granted, Words of Wilding is maybe faster (dunno), but if you are controling the game, this does not matter. Sacred Mesa is better because you can create Pegasii and chump block with them without losing cards.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you're having Mesa issues, what about Living Wish? It can get Argothians, Xantids,  or Serra's Sanctum. Or you could just run more sanctums main.

[cousTo]

Glad to see some talk about Enchantress-like deck

Since the cooperb's era, i've always been interested in this deck but for many reason, I found the deck was playing on too much color, based on my own experiences and my metagame.

So here's one of the version I've been playing for quite long time with strong result.

// NAME : r    e   m  e dy
// CREATOR : cousTo
// FORMAT : Classic
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Forest
        4 Savannah
        4 Windswept Heath
        7 Plains
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Sol Ring
        3 True Believer
        4 Argothian Enchantress
        1 Ground Seal
        1 Humility
        1 Karmic Justice
        1 Moat
        1 Pursuit of Knowledge
        1 Seal of Cleansing
        1 Pariah
        1 Words of Worship
        2 Aura of Silence
        2 Sacred Mesa
        4 Sterling Grove
        4 Sylvan Library
        1 Crop Rotation
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Balance
        1 Regrowth
        3 Replenish

Here's a interview I made with David Letterman about my deck

Why humility?
-In my meta, humility is a H-BOMB.

Why did you choose Argothian over Presence?
-Speed factor.

Your talkin 'bout speed and there's no black and blue?
-Strong colors for sure, but wanna keep the mana field easier to cover. Stability and/of speed.

Did you know that Argothian + humility was like a rock in the gaz tank?
-humility is a late-game card and Argo is a(hoping) first few turn card. I generally use Humility when it is the only answer and when I don't mind having my creatures abilities removed. At that point, PoK is there to start the frenziness of this deck.

Thank you couTo. Wanna thanks someone on National TV?
-Thanks David, I wanna thanks Words of Worship for making cry aggro deck when I'm down below 5 life points. And thanks to True Believer for being so good when needed despite not having theorical argument of your benefits.

[cooberp]

Hi everyone,
So I haven't really played Magic for about a year--just sort of lost interest and got caught up with other stuff--but I'm glad to see people are still carrying the Enchantress torch.  I really don't know much about the metagame now (although I'm thrilled to see the prices on my P9 soaring) so I really don't feel qualified to comment on the best version of Enchantress for the current environment.  Basically, Enchantress was quite strong against traditional aggro and control, but got run over by goldfish combos and by the general speeding up of the metagame.  The last I remember was that it couldn't beat 4-Gush Groatog.  If Rule of Law really does hose most combos these days, then I would imagine that would strengthen Enchantress considerably as it can certainly get it out turn 2-3 postboard, but I would imagine there are lots of combos that dont require playing lots of spells in one turn (esp. aggro combos).  I am intrigued by Decree of Justice as a Mesa substitute, but it is a) not an enchantment b) can't be stacked cutely with Abyss and c) can't be recurred except by HW.  I'd stick with Mesa.
I really did not have such bad mana problems after fetchlands came out.  Unless there is a lot more land hate in the environment than there used to be, I found the mana to be quite, quite stable.
I ran 4 Argothian, 1 Presence, another Presence in the board vs. control.  Yes, of course the Presences are more in theme than the Argothians, but that one mana difference is huge for slipping under counters, and the Worship lock really was your primary strategy against much aggro.  Xantid Swarm is certainly a cheaper City of Solitude and seems tempting, but it is again not an enchantment, dies to your own Abyss, and is easily removal.  Maybe in the SB if they board out removal, but if you can't search for it you'd have to run a lot of copies.
Library was always a bomb for me.  This deck should always have 7 cards in hand!
I don't think I'm going to re-commit to the game like I used to, but I'll keep tabs on this, and if it looks like the deck is going to be tournament viable maybe I'll start playing in a few.  Here is my Onslaught-era decklist:

//NAME: Enchantress
//  Mana (27)
        4 Windswept Heath
        4 Savannah
        3 City of Brass
        2 Bayou
        1 Scrubland
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Serra's Sanctum
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Plains
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Tundra
        1 Black Lotus
//  Draw (10)
        4 Argothian Enchantress
        3 Sylvan Library
        1 Enchantress's Presence
        1 Pursuit of Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
//  Vs. Control (5)
        3 Duress
        1 City of Solitude
        1 Words of Waste
//  Recursion (5)
        4 Replenish
        1 Holistic Wisdom
//  Search (4)
        3 Sterling Grove
        1 Demonic Tutor
//  Removal (4)
        1 Seal of Cleansing
        1 Pariah
        1 Balance
        1 The Abyss
//  Staying Alive (4)
        1 Overgrown Estate
        1 Moat
        1 Story Circle
        1 Worship
//  Kill (2)
        2 Sacred Mesa
//  Sideboard (15)
SB:  3 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  2 Choke
SB:  1 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Samite Ministration
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Compost
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 City of Solitude
SB:  1 Karmic Justice
SB:  1 Enchantress's Presence
SB:  1 Carpet of Flowers
SB:  1 Celestial Dawn

Other than Rule of Law in the SB, I'm not sure what would change, it depends on metagame.

[shilleagh]

k, this goes back to Toad.

I've been running words of wilding opposed to mesa for a few reasons. One, it's far faster than a mesa because it's colourless to activate. Two, a 2/2 bear is better than a 1/1 pegasus, flying or not. Moat isn't run in my area (most are budget players) and it doesn't really pose that much
of a concern. I'd rather alpha strike with 10+ bears than chip away with a few piddly little pegasi. And naturally, with the argothians, presence, libraries et al. card advantage isn't that much of a concern. with 2 libraries out, I'll still net 2 cards and 2 2/2 bears. Which isn't a bad thing.

Try it out. I've been testing with it, and although Mesa is good, Words of Wilding seems superior, at least in my meta.

[Dr. Sylvan]

First, it's really cool to see you make an appearance, cooberp. Hopefully Enchantress becomes a strong deck again to entice you back to the cardboard. :)

with 2 libraries out, I'll still net 2 cards and 2 2/2 bears.

This statement indicates to me that you're using the replacement effects incorrectly. Since I'd rather this thread avoid the problem of every Enchantress thread ever and spend pages on Sylvan Library rules, ask for clarification in the Rules Forum on the interactions between Sylvan and WoW's/Pursuit/Abundance, especially with multiple Libraries.

I got in a bunch of testing time today, and I found myself not enjoying my boarded Xantid Swarms. I just didn't want to take out enchantments for them, and against Hulk I like to have some Plows available for emergencies where I can't get out something else. Speaking of that, I've brought back Pariah, because it's so hot. Aggro has been going really well. In a sign of my silver-bulletyness, I've also maindecked Choke, which hasn't caused problems yet. Another idea I tried was a fourth Sylvan Library, and that should definitely not be maindeck--board it if at all for control, but another Presence is generally better. I wanted another Grove sometimes, so that's what I'm looking for a slot in.

Since people are adding black, let me say that I never once felt like Duress would be a really stronger play than what I was managing, and Choke was working much like WoWaste used to for me. <3 basic land--really. Forest > *

[Toad]

You have to sideboard your Swords to Plowshares out against Hulk. You don't defeat a Control deck by dealing with his win condition.

I've been running words of wilding opposed to mesa for a few reasons. One, it's far faster than a mesa because it's colourless to activate. Two, a 2/2 bear is better than a 1/1 pegasus, flying or not. Moat isn't run in my area (most are budget players) and it doesn't really pose that much
of a concern. I'd rather alpha strike with 10+ bears than chip away with a few piddly little pegasi. And naturally, with the argothians, presence, libraries et al. card advantage isn't that much of a concern. with 2 libraries out, I'll still net 2 cards and 2 2/2 bears. Which isn't a bad thing.

For having tested both, I can say Words of Wilding is a better win condition once you are already winning. I mean, If you have won the game (ie total control) and you want to kill, then Words of Wilding is better and faster, especially with multiple Sylvan Libraries on the board (btw, you need to replace all the draws if you don't want to lose life). Nevertheless, if you have no Argothian and no Presence on the board, which sometimes happen, hence no way to draw cards, and you need to chump block, then Words of Wilding is really bad. I've often won games after spending a few turns investing all my mana for chump blocking Pegasii, buying me time to settle a better mana base and draw for bombs (or Sterling Grove).

Since people are adding black

After some (a few) additional testing games, I'd say Black is almost needed in the Tog matchup. You can't beat Tog without Duress. Tog's draw engine is too fast and too explosive for you, hence you'll never be able to bait all his counters to resolve your bombs (and you don't have a lot of bombs in this matchup). Tog is a nightmare matchup. Deed is game. Trini$T4KS is horrible too, as you have hundreds of dead maindeck cards and all your spells have sorcery speed.

Here is my last decklist. Changes since the last build are enlightened with a '¤'

// Mana base -- 27
        3 [card]City of Brass[/card]
        1 [card]Library of Alexandria[/card]
        1 [card]Plains[/card]
        1 [card]Serras Sanctum[/card]
        1 [card]Strip Mine[/card]
        2 [card]Bayou[/card]
        3 [card]Wasteland[/card]
        4 [card]Savannah[/card]
        3 [card]Scrubland[/card]
        3 [card]Windswept Heath[/card]
        1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]
        1 [card]Mox Emerald[/card]
        1 [card]Mox Jet[/card]
        1 [card]Mox Pearl[/card]
        1 [card]Sol Ring[/card]
// Draw engine, Tutors and Recursion -- 17
        4 [card]Argothian Enchantress[/card]
        2 [card]Enchantresss Presence[/card]
        2 [card]Sylvan Library[/card]
        3 [card]Sterling Grove[/card]
        1 [card]Demonic Tutor[/card]
        3 [card]Replenish[/card]
        1 [card]Pursuit of Knowledge[/card]
        1 [card]Hollistic Wisdom[/card] ¤
// Protection and Removal -- 9
        3 [card]Seal of Cleansing[/card]
        2 [card]Swords to Plowshares[/card]
        1 [card]Balance[/card]
        3 [card]Duress[/card]
// Bullets -- 4
        1 [card]Ground Seal[/card]
        1 [card]Moat[/card]
        1 [card]Words of Waste[/card]
        1 [card]Worship[/card]
// Win Conditions -- 3
        1 [card]Eternal Dragon[/card]
        2 [card]Sacred Mesa[/card]
// Sideboard -- 15
 SB:  1 [card]City of Solitude[/card]
 SB:  1 [card]Karmic Justice[/card]
 SB:  2 [card]Rule of Law[/card]
 SB:  1 [card]Mind Twist[/card] ¤
 SB:  1 [card]Sacred Ground[/card]
 SB:  1 [card]Seal of Cleansing[/card]
 SB:  1 [card]The Abyss[/card]
 SB:  1 [card]Aura Fracture[/card]
 SB:  2 [card]Xantid Swarm[/card]
 SB:  2 [card]Ground Seal[/card]
 SB:  2 [card]Swords to Plowshares[/card]

I need techs against Prison, Tog and Slavery, because these matchups are incredibly bad :<

[Dr. Sylvan]

What do you board Rule of Law against? I've found it to have poor applications against Hulk, since everything they do is an instant anyway. As you can see earlier in the thread, I'm basically conceding to any competent Storm player just by playing Enchantress, so I don't know what I should be using the Rules for. Maybe the testing gauntlet I have put together is less than thorough (haven't bothered exploring the depths of the Dragon matchup, though I'm hoping to get to it soon), but I also haven't been thrilled by Aura Fracture. My complement of Seals is enough for almost anything--I've even been meeting success against 4-Pillar TnT--and never want more enchantment removal over something else. Those sideboard slots might be better as more Sacred Grounds to improve the consistency of the Prison matchup.

[Toad]

Rule of Law is here for the Storm Combo decks. It's way to slow to be good (uh, I'm never going to see turn 3), so I'll probably just say I can't beat Combo even If I devote 15 SB slots to this matchup, hence drop the Rule of Law for something better against Tog and Prison.

Aura Fracture is for the Sligh or Oshawa Stompy matchups (example), because as these decks just have 1 Enchantment to kill (Blood Moon or Survival of the Fittest), the Seals are sideboarded out for Swords to Plowshares, Karmic Justice and The Abyss. I think I'll cut the SBed Ground Seals for Tormod's Crypt. I have one MD Ground Seal if needed against Dragon or Welder decks, but I want an answer to multiple Squees bouncing back from the graveyard to feed a Bazaar or a Survival.

[Thug]

I'm sursprised Choke doesn't cut it the last few decklists. Against Tog and Keeper a Choke is a lot more effective than City of Solitude, Choke might defenitly be the answer to Tog. Personally I would maindeck one, but that because of the high popularity of scepter-decks in my area.

Another thing I would consider is having acces to Chant either maindeck or sideboard, it's one of the best weapons against most-combo decks, together with Root Maze, which also definitly deserves a sideboard spot.

If the mana-base can support it, the fourth Duress would also be a strong choice, again to battle combo, but also to stand a better fighting change against Prison.

Ivory Mask is slow, but can also be a game-winning card against combo and Slavery.

I also think the full Jewelry is needed, just because you want to pop out Seals, Enchantresses, Ground Seals etc. asap.

I have always liked Enchantress as a deck, since it can be adapted to olmast everything and requires a good amount of skill, the only problem I have always had with the deck is the 50-minute time limit...

Koen

[Jawman16]

@toad. Have you really found Prison to be a bad matchup?  I have not played against the beast that is Trinisphere yet but against regular Stax.  I always took the match.  Sacred Ground is key.  I even got players to board out Smokestack because of it.  Finding Sanctum and Mesa ASAP is also key.  I dont see how it can be bad with so many Seals in the deck.  Also Swords are awesome in that Matchup as well.  Goodbye Welders and Karn.  

I have played against tog a little as well and found that STP is a game winner there as well.  It is a must counter if played correctly and can allow you to break through the counter wall.  It almost serves as a quasie duress for me int he fact that it always steals that counter spell.  Tog is a control deck yes but it is also a combo deck as well.  And stopping a combo decks kill is a good way to win.  Oh yea and deed isnt that good.  I have been deeded many a time and all it does is kill their togs and either set me up for a game breaking replensih or I have resolved Karmic Justice and they just Balanced their side of the board.  

Ps.  Good to see cooberp back.  Thanks for the great deck ideas.

[Toad]

I'm sursprised Choke doesn't cut it the last few decklists. Against Tog and Keeper a Choke is a lot more effective than City of Solitude, Choke might defenitly be the answer to Tog. Personally I would maindeck one, but that because of the high popularity of scepter-decks in my area.

Yeah, Choke is good. I'll probably cut the 2 SBed Rule of Law for 2 Choke. I have a lot of dead maindeck cards I need to clear against Tog anyways.

@toad. Have you really found Prison to be a bad matchup?  I have not played against the beast that is Trinisphere yet but against regular Stax.  I always took the match.  Sacred Ground is key.  I even got players to board out Smokestack because of it.  Finding Sanctum and Mesa ASAP is also key.  I dont see how it can be bad with so many Seals in the deck.  Also Swords are awesome in that Matchup as well.  Goodbye Welders and Karn.

Yes, Prison is a bad matchup, because as your main weapons / tools in this matchup are Seal of Cleansing, Argothian Enchantress, Sacred Ground, Sterling Grove and Demonic Tutor, Chalice of the Void for 2 is game. Sure, Sacred Ground is a threat, but you need time to find it and mana to cast it. Tangle Wires, Sphere of Resistance and Trinispheres are the perfect weapons to prevent that.  Whatever, from the perspective of the Prison player, sideboarding the Smokestacks out is just plain stupid. First turn Smokestack is almost always game, as Enchantress's cheapest permanent costs 2. Sphere of Resistance is hard. Swords are not wonderful against $T4KS, because Welders are not really important in this matchup. They are strong against MUD or Welder MUD though, because a Metalworker that survive for a turn is bad news for you. Getting out Sacred Mesa fast is not wonderful, because you need to spend 2WW every turn to shut down a Smokestack with one counter (sac a Pegasus for upkeep and another one for the Stack).

I have played against tog a little as well and found that STP is a game winner there as well.  It is a must counter if played correctly and can allow you to break through the counter wall.  It almost serves as a quasie duress for me int he fact that it always steals that counter spell.  Tog is a control deck yes but it is also a combo deck as well.  And stopping a combo decks kill is a good way to win.

That's a common mistake. You don't beat Control or Combo by neutering their win condition. You need to break their engine. If Tog outdraws you 3:1, then even if you have 4 Swords to Plowshares in hand, you're dead (hint: Mind Twist). Bringing Swords to Plowshares against Tog is like holding your Disenchant when you are playing Keeper against Enchantress, waiting for the Sacred Mesa, while the opponent draws like crazy with Presences on the board. If Tog hits, that's game.

I have been deeded many a time and all it does is kill their togs and either set me up for a game breaking replensih or I have resolved Karmic Justice and they just Balanced their side of the board.

No offense here, but you are playing against bad Tog players. Deed is game 90% of the time if you don't have Karmic Justice on the board, because Tog will generate such a massive amount of card advantage you will never be able to recover. Sometimes you'll be able to recover, but that's just because the Tog opponent's drew crap after the Deed.

[cousTo]

On the same idea as Toad, Karmic is a must maindeck if your meta include nasty removal like Deeds, hull breach, or whatever you're facing. It's even good against Wasteland and co.!

About Tog and other damn good creatures with tremendous abilities. HUMILITY is working so well for me.