This is wrong.

[Browser]

I haven't wanted to post here since the new changes, but this has been annoying me to no end, so I thought I should speak my mind.

I guess I never really saw the advantage of the old newbie forums.  It seemed like a lot of viable, innovative ideas came from it, so a person had to read both forums to get the highest volume of discussion and ideas.

Now we need 3 forums??  Honestly, what purpose could it really serve?  Sure, the posters in that highest of high forums will most likely put out FEW to ZERO bad ideas.  There's the threat of not being seen as the elite anymore.  That will generally make anyone post fewer ideas all together.

And the "wanna-be's" in the middle forum.  Are they now going to put forth every new deck tech they work on?  NO!  How could one be so risky?  After all, the inner circle over in that other room might see what I say, and disagree, and we couldn't have that, could we?  No, no.  It's far safer to make smaller comments, that are more genrealized.  Don't delve into those sometimes disagreable details.

The concept of quarantining "sub-par" posters is flawed.  It's destructive, elitist and will result in stifled creativity.  (Nazi reference removed).  

That's the problem with stifling speech unnecessarily.  You never know the ideas that would have been.

The way I see it, there are only two benefits that one could find in dividing the Type 1 community this way:

1. It becomes minutely more convenient to find quality posts.  But this benefit can easily be debunked.  Assuming you are new to Type 1, figuring out which posts are valuable, and which ones aren't, is your responsibility, and in fact it adds to the process of becoming a better player.  If you are already a skilled discusser of Type 1 tech, you should easily be able to look at any post, and within seconds, be able to determine the value of the data.

And if you're reading to hear and share ideas regarding new deck design, wouldn't quantity of ideas be equally valuable.  

So now, you'll need to read 3 forums to get quantity.  If you want more discussion on your posts, you have to post them 3 times.  So much for convenience.  

2.  It allows players to slap themselves on the back.  I saved this for last, because I'm sure it will be the most quickly dismissed idea in the whole post.  There's a perverse satisfaction felt by players who are in the top forum.  "I've made it."  "Look at what I am."

Ego.  We're all human here.  Don't take this as any major insult.  It's not any great secret that vanity is often indulged upon in Magic circles.  Why do players compete in PTQ's?  It's not to get all the bitches.  It's not because they have realistic expectations of supporting themselves financially.  It's because at the end of the day, it's fun to go home to your local shop and say, "Yeah, I'm the top player here."

Type 1 doesn't have it's big winner's circle.  It's understandable that players seek recognition for their Magic achievement here, online, in the arena of ideas.  So please, let me hereby acknowledge all the great players of Type 1.  You know who you are.  You've contributed immensely.  But don't you think we could put aside the idea that you're the only ones who can contribute?

Honestly, if you think dividing the Type 1 community further is healthy for the format, you really need someone to tell you that you are doing Type 1 no justice.

I personally feel that many of the points in this thread are worth discussing. Unfortunately, the thread is quickly turning into a Anti/Nazi flame war. For the future, please don't bring up such non-magic-related sensitive subjects and an obvious dangerous comment. -- Leviat

[Gabethebabe]

There´s a lot of truth in your post.

Personally I resent the idea that I have to go and beg on my knees to get me membership re-instated.

But I know what the TMD answer will be:

Hey, if you don´t like our rules, feel free get the fuck out.

One comment I´d like to add: the so-called elite posters, they don´t post new ideas, they provide links to Starcity articles.

[Rane]

The only reason there is a secluded Type 1 Forum is to keep the spam of newbies out.  I think it's a great idea.  The point of the 'Type 1 trial forum' is to let the mods see who's a random scrub and who knows what they're talkin about.  I would like to be admitted to the secluded forum but the only way they can let people like myslef in is by checking to make sure they are not random spammers, not to fill their ego.  The other bonus of seperating the Newbie forum from the Type 1 is that it allows players like myself to talk about other vintage players with a competitive metagame without the interruptions of people saying, "well I think Blaze is a top card that should be played in any deck with red."  I couldn't even give advice on the old Newbie forums because (not to flame) but some people's blatant inexperience in Type 1.  They insist on some things that we take as givens like 'don't play 4cc cards or higher unless it wins the game.'

On your note of people holding back unsure idea's and playing it safe so they don't look stupid.  I completely disagree.  I can see what you're trying to say, but I certainly don't hold back my idea's and gladly post them for others to see.  If my idea fails it wasn't because I was stupid or I didn't give it thought, it's because I thought of it, tested it, and concluded it didn't work.  If anything mods may be pleased by people bringing new idea's to the table.  Anyone who does hold back his ideas and plays it safe to try and be accepted is one of the people who have ego issues and should not be accepted anyway.

@ GabeTheBabe -
Learn to construct sentances properly.  Learn what a paragraphs is.  Most of those people wrote those SCG articles so it was their idea.

[Robert the Swordsman]

@Rane: Before you criticize anyone, learn how to spell "sentences".

@Browser: I'm glad you were able to speak your mind on this matter. I agree with the fact that many people are afraid to post their ideas due to the fact that a higher-up may take a look at it and scoff, causing the rest of that community to do the same, but if that were indeed the case, I can understand that people would want to hold back.

I don't think I'd want to keep utilizing an idea / playing a deck if it had been instantly recieved as terrible by any of Vintage's established names. One would never recieve any support (not even from regular players, because they've all obviously read the pro's response on your thread), and even if the deck won a Power tourney, someone would comment on "the decline of the metagame" or call it a fluke (see Mono green LD, for example).

I'm glad you posted this, but I can also understand why people aren't putting their new ideas out; one sour word from a Paragon (or anyone else) regarding their deck would mean that their hard work wasn't worth it.

[Zherbus]

Stick with Brainburst or MTGnews if you don't like TMD's system. Quite honestly, the only reason why you even come here is because we run differently. If you want to see what happens when we open the flood-gates, as if looking at the Brainburst or MTGNews forums weren't enough, then look long and hard at TMD's temp forums.

EDIT: I just reread and was reminded that I was compared to the Nazis, which is interesting that you only bring this up after you lose full membership rights from the site change.

RE: Rob - I think you're still battle-scarred from the days of old. There hasn't been one thread in recent history (read: the last year) that has been shot down by a 'Paragon' (something which I am not, by the way).

[MarkPharaoh]

If you want to see what happens when we open the flood-gates, as if looking at the Brainburst or MTGNews forums weren't enough, then look long and hard at TMD's temp forums.

Just look at The Source, it was suppose to be the TMD of T1.5 but with open membership, go read the forums and compare it to these forums, you'd be amazed.

[leviat]

I disagree with the majority of the points that were brought up and I actually like the new system over the old one. I can easily see the quality difference between the Newbie Forum, the Open Type 1, and the (Closed) Type 1 forums. I also believe that because I can see the difference in the quality of the posts that the system has been working out quite well so far.

On the old TMD there were also three distinct forums as well. The Newbie forum, the general Vintage forum, and the Extreme Vintage forum. I found that the newbie forum was pretty useless to me as I didn't have the time to keep up with the large influx of new threads that were being started and it was very difficult for me to find the time to wade through hundreds of posts to see if someone had some meaningfull insight for a reply I had made.

The Vintage forum was where I spent most of my time, but replies were often narrow viewed and it was difficult to get a fresh perspective without jumping into the "Raging River" that the Newbie forum had turned out to be.

(I'm not going to comment on the Extreme Vintage forum because I think it's obvious that it wasn't what it should have been near the end).

The new setup is working out much better though --

Newbie Forum -- This forum is where anyone can post about pretty much anything in Type 1. When I feel like helping someone out, I like to peruse through this forum and I expect to find people who are just beginning to grasp M:TG and are venturing out into competitive Vintage.

Open Type 1 Forum -- Referred to by most as the "Proving Grounds", this forum is for Basic users to start serious discussions about different decks and strategies. When I'm looking for fresh ideas and useful information, this is where I go. Thanks to the mods, these forums have stayed informative and fresh and it lets me utilize the minds of the open community.

(Closed) Type 1 Forum -- The threads here are where people that have proven their knowledge post and share ideas amoung one another. This makes it easier on the moderators and it allows advanced ideas to stay on topic, or to promote analysis of tried and true decklists. More quality with less quantity.

Unless these three different forums start to become difficult to tell apart based on their content, then I think that the system in place is working out well (and I see no reason to change things when they are working).

As for the elitist nature of the Magic community, I only half-agree with you. The part that I can't argue with is that in general, the Magic crowd has a large ego and they like to show off there skills. However, after Gencon last year, alot of people have layed heavily into the Paragons (and Meandeck to some extent). After the dust settled, whether by internal affairs and/or actual effort on their parts, Paragons have been been alot better and I think things have been pretty good since.

I just want to mention one more thing. TheManaDrain has become pretty much part of the Type-1 community. Just about anyone who is into serious competitive Magic knows all about TheManaDrain. The reason for this is because Zherbus, the admins, and the mods know what they are doing. While I think it's good to question them sometimes (to keep them on their toes), you also have to just trust in their judgement because they have proven they know what they are doing.

[bebe]

I think there is a few misconceptions here and a more than a few generalizations.
Just before the old forum collapsed, Azhrei had a thread going where he encouraged the new memers and the older ones to post questions and seek advice from the paragons. I did noit view this as elitist and certainly felt that it was generous of Azhrei, who hardly plays at all now, to give up his time to forward the project.
The newbie forum and open type 1 forums are meant to be stepping stones. If the quality of the posts are high you are given the status to post in any forum. This makes perfect sense - we need to at least have spme crtiteria for posting in the vintage forums. It is not so much to prevent spam as to keep the quality of the replies high.
I am not a paragon but I've had numwerous discussions with many of them ... Darren, Steve, Oscar and others have always been forthcoming with advice when I've pmed them as have all the other vintage adepts. PM dicemanx, PTW, Hyperion, Toad, Puschkin and others and you will see that there is very little ego involved here. They are quite accessible.
Leaving your ego at the door applies as much to the newbie forum as the vintage forum. I've seen egos get out of hand in both. So lets not point fingers to a particular group as really it is a generalization that smears many members of the site.
Last, - new tech. I watched a number of members including myself get lambasted for new ideas ... vintage memebers are no exception. The original Hulk by JP and Smmemen's Hermit Druid were both dismeissed early. JP's deck proved itself. Shock Wave and Razor discussed their decks before they became accepted and also garnered some negative responses. I believe Hyperion's initial Msadness builds were also considered an sub par initially until people began winning with them. We post new decks to be CRITIQUED. This is how it must be. There is an Affinity deck, a Bloody Mask deck and a Charbelcher deck all being critqued now. I would hope that those who started the thread appreciate that there is bound to be a discussion as to the viability of their builds. Whether or not a vintage adept likes it should not be a deterrent to post their ideas.

Please understand that I do understand where you are coming from. I love seeing new ideas and presenting them. I feel I've championed more than a few rogue decks. I'm just trying to present a different perspective  on the issue.

[Fëanor]

I've only been a member since the crash,  but I've read the previous forums and i know exactly what everyone else is talking about. Heres my outlook:

While sometimes I dont like having negative thoughts go into a post, there is no way to deny them. I am reminded of the Dream Halls deck gerrymander (not to single out) put on the temp forum which sparked much debate. The truth is, negative comments may not really encourage some players, but they are nevertheless essential. The end result of the Dream Halls thread was that gerrymander decided to give the deck some breathing time and then post it in the casual.

While most people may have looked down on him I believed his deck had potential at least on the competitive level. TMD has more than one forum for a reason. The developers and administrators have tuned the forums so that any and all vintage decks and theories may be discussed. Negative criticism does not wholly belong in the TMD universe for this reason. In this case all 'mander had to do was switch the deck over to casual and the menacing replies stopped.

In conclusion of this idea, I would encourage posters to think carefully about what type of criticism they want. If you have a deck that you want to make more competitive, post it in the type one. If you have a good deck and have no power or little money, posting in the type one will net you replies like "Put p9 in and other expensive cards". Flip side; putting that deck into the newb forum (even if youre not a newb) will net you replies from a more similar group of destitue individuals who feel your pain.

Hope that makes sense. Again sometimes I ramble...

peace

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I feel that one of the main problems people have with the newbie/open forums are that they want certain people to read their posts.  Like if someone who doesn't have an account posts something in another person's thread in the open forum, they disregard what is said because its not Smenen, Zherbus, or other people.  "What does he know saying im wrong or this needs to be worked on, he's not a someone who matters."  I think this is the reason people despise not having an account so much, and someone should set them straight.  

When I first had an account I was guilty of having this type of mentality, but it has passed.  Now I don't care who responds to my threads or posts and I don't dfferentiate between member and non-member.  When my new Goblin Sligh post is up later I welcome anyone to give it a look and propose some ideas.


@Feanor, At the time many of the open threads go up, the posters don't say that they are working on a budget, or that they are using certain cards because they don't have others.  People generally italk about decks that are in their personal cardpool and expect people to take it as a universal thing.

[SpencerForHire]

A good rule of thumb is your damned if you do and your damned if you don't.  Full User account, that be nice, Basice User Account, whatever I get is good enough, It gets the job done.. Its not like the "elitests" as they are being referred to, don't bother looking at the "lower" forums.
And if you put down an idea just because one "high-up" doesn't like it, well then its your loss.  Because once again, new ideas sprout up everywhere, every deck started some time.  Some decks weren't believed to be viable, but they could be.   It's just matter of working hard and getting it done.  

In short (in case this seems like rambling nonsense), so what if you don't have a full account, does that mean you lack the access to TheManaDrain.com? Does that mean you can't ask people for help? No, definately not, it means you can't post in a forum with a special name.. Just keep posting, if you deserve it, you'll make it.  If you don't you are like plenty of other people out there using a Basic TMD account and getting along with it fine.  Hell, the newbie forum helped me complete my TnT build. (which now gets really consistent kills/mana/etc..)  

The only point for the different boards is exactly as stated.  It's easy for moderators.

Ok I'm done, sorry if this doesn't make since, it does to me but sometimes I just ramble.

[Sytupal]

Just the other day I asked a friend of mine if he read my Thread on Dragon.  He responded that he skimmed through it but he doesn't really enjoy dragon and prefers to stick to the Newbie forum anyways.   I thought this funny after reading this thread. ~  My friend isn't a "newbie," not to M:TG.  To most on this site he may be a "Newbie" to Vintage, and compared to the standard of these decks sometimes, he may be.  But he's played for years.  

TMD has opened me up to "competitive" Type 1.  I've played in tournaments for as long as i can remember playing magic and did fairly well, Locally.  for awhile i posted decklists on Essentialmagic.com in order to get some feedbackand felt that to be my community.  Later realizing most posts and replies were useless and far from helpful.  To me,  I view Essentialmagic like i view the Newbie forum here.  It's more "casual competitive" than anything else.  

I've gone off on a tangent by the looks of it but I'm simply saying that the idea of two open forums is not a bad thing.  I try to view myself as a competitive "vintage" player.  On the old TMD posting in the NEwbie forum was all i could do, but having occasionally useful replies was worth it more than posting on an open "essentialmagic" forum where "everyone" posted.  The new format of this site allows People like myself who have a basic membership but don't want to get replies from every basic user there is, post in the Open Type 1 Forum.  Many like my friend stick to the Newbie forum for the most part so i can count on the quality of the responses on my thread/threads in the Open Type 1 forum to be from people who have some sort of experience with decks i post or problems i consider.

Again - Like always, happy to be here.
-Rich

[wuaffiliate]

One thing i dont get are these threads, im a good player, im a good deck builder, i do well in tourneys, i posted on the original TMD with full access, 90% of my posts were offensive and i got alot of "byes" from warnings because i knew people.

i dont have an account now because of my lack of stategic content, and over use of inflamatory content and just being a trouble maker in the oringinal forums.

i dont blame Steve at all for not automatically giving me my access back, it should be earned, unlike last time. you see i was one of the first to sign up to the forums (20th or so) so i bypassed the member filter.

i would rather have to prove myself now by posting well, than be let in automatically. my point is that this system is great, it leaves out the weak posters who are not here to further the format.

as steve told me, it doesnt matter if you are a good player or deckbuilder, you need to have the correct attutude to be able to post here, and i really do agree.

[Pago]

I wanted to transfer this thread over here from the ass-boards, but the thread is huge and I'm not picking through comments on 8 pages.

Well, this is the most prime example of how MtG is evolving from a fun TCG to a bunch of fag jockey club members. Its retarded how members of this so called damned "inner-circle" believe only the ideas that they spew forth are worth anybody's trouble.

example: 9-breaker smacking on Apex in the Brainburst.com forums for making a "suture ghoul" deck, calling it second rate shit noobie shit, when at the same time smmemen is making such a deck, and recieves "helpful insight" from the "Closed Type 1 Forum

I completely agree with browser about how this concept is completely flawed. There is NO reason to assume that people that are new or just newbies to the Vintage format are just a bunch of idiots that spew out "Squirrel Craft" decks with 4 copies of Earthcraft.

Honestly, Id rather get an explanation of how cards interact and how good they are, rather than go to a Vintage Forum or starcitygames.com and read about "Card Theory" and how "You gain or lose card disadvantage by casting a cantrip." Seriously, wtf. Its incredibly boring how people can somehow wring so much bs out of a card game like "Card Theory." Yet another prime example of how I find some inner circle forum members actually spew out a bunch of illegible shit rather than a "good read"

Yet another example is the naming of such forums. "Proving Forums?" "Newbie Forum for 'springs'"? wtf?! So, now the friendly T1 vintage community has gone as far as to bequeth upon new members or possibly even members that have played magic for years the status of "Dumbass Newbie"? Another prime example of how you look down upon others. Try and give those forums a more deserving name, because obviously there are ideas in there that are better than yours.

[Sytupal]

I'm starting to view TMD as USA in many ways.  We're open and free to post whatever we want here(within reasonand obviously with criticism) so  People come out and post crap HERE about us while they're still being HERE and commenting on other peoples threads HERE.   Go somewhere else then.

[Hi-Val]

I can see the need for keeping some of the chaff out of the "big boy" forums. What I would like is transparency. More on that later.

I am playing around with Vengeur Mask. I want to talk about it, and there is a thread in the T1 forum right now discussing everything I want to talk about. I want to sound off ideas about the deck and the matchups. However, I cannot due to my status. I recognize this. But how do I get around it? It would be crass of me to copy and paste the post or just provide a link to it from the Newbie forums. If I were to start a post on this, I would essentially have to retype (or plagarize) everything in the excellent T1 forum post for discussion. That's a waste of time. The members who are advanced will more likely post in the T1 forums, leaving me to ponder ideas with people who may not have tested it and are in the same boat as me. The blind leading the blind.

Now on to transparency. We know that there is a secret 5-member panel that reviews posts and nominates people for membership. In the old FAQ, we had links to examples of why people were inducted. I am concerned, however, because the examples do not fit my posting style. I cannot write good, strong primers. I cannot expound on Magic theory. I can post solidly good, stable suggestions and consider new options. My posting style may not be flashy, but I attempt to put content in everything. Are people like me what TMD needs?

The FAQ says that posters may be promoted even based on one post. I would enjoy seeing examples of this. Not a primer, but a solid post that shows a clear grasp of T1. Is there a possibility for some sort of "welcoming thread" in the T1 forum to show who the newest member was and maybe give a brief reason why they were promoted? This may seem like a hassle, but if examples were provided about good posts and good posters, we would know what kind of content to aim for.

The Newbie forums are an excellent place for testing the waters with new decks. But I sometimes find myself wanting to suggest something in the T1 forums that would be of great use, but I find that I am unable to. If I PM the poster, at least one person knows. It would be better though to have the most people getting the best information.

I welcome a response to my call for transparency. If there is a place for posters like me, I am more than willing to contribute all I have.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Personally, I think the new system is even better than the old TMD. One of the problems on the old forums was that the closed-access non-Extreme Vintage forum was too easily filled with less-than-tested ideas from longtime members who registered in mid-2002 and simply hadn't committed any actions to cause their demotion since the membership restrictions had been in place. (I don't have anyone in particular in mind, just a general memory which I think most people would agree with.) This made it much less distinctive from the Newbie Forum, and eventually caused the EVT to be isolated to Vintage Adepts and Mods exclusively, just to make an attempt to have a forum where every single post was backed up by thought--ideally we would want this from all forums, but the internet never lives up to that.

At present the middle ground is in the Open Type One forum, which is an ideal proving ground for people to show they are able to make the kind of consistently thoughtful replies that deserve access to the upper forum. It's also the best place for full members to try something new and hope to get replies from people serious about their participation in the site, but without the burden of hard tournament evidence and influential supporters that is integral to keeping the closed-access forum productive.

Rather than a mutual admiration society, the upper forum is simply confined to a higher expectation of proof, and so it is cut off from users who are not yet known to revere that standard and have something to contribute that meets it. Whether it's through articles on SCG (as in my case), tournament victories, personally meeting or discussing over PM with the "important people", or just making posts only when you have something to say, eventually you'll encroach on the radar of the decision-makers, and then you'll be promoted. I certainly don't have a membership because I win tournaments or revolutionize the environment (not even close!), and that's not what's necessary for a promotion.

The system is working and as a result TMD is the gold standard of Magic forums.

[Bram]

Oh man, posts like this piss me off SO much...

The concept of quarantining "sub-par" posters is flawed. It's destructive, elitist and will result in stifled creativity. It's been done before.

And this wisdom was bestowed upon you by whom exactly? There's no proof for this. I'll counteract your statement with one of my own (or rather the much-maligned Mark Rosewater): rules breed creativity. This is true for card design, so why shouldn't it be true for deck design? Noone is stifling creativity here. Be creative. Do it in forums you can post in. Oh, you can't be bothered? Then don't do it at all.

The Nazis took the most innovative engineering societies in the world at the time, and through strict confomity to the acceptable thought, and the desire to fit in to the elitist circles, turned to dust the most advanced scientific research of the time.

Thank you for entertaining me briefly with the stupidest metaphor I've read in a very long time. I take it you're not European? If you would be, then you'd be properly educated about what exactly went on in the period leading up to WWII and you'd realise what an enormous insult this is to Zherbus and to those who suffered the consequences of the war. The fact that you're pissed off about not being a full member is NO justification for such ridiculous statements. You can get arrested in this country for comparing someone or something to a Nazi or Nazism. Think about that for a while.

That's the problem with stifling speech unnecessarily. You never know the ideas that would have been.

Yeah, and if we allow everybody and their brother to post every half-assed idea on these boards, we'll never know the ideas either, because we'd spent the better part of our week digging for them through unimaginable piles of rubbish. Look at any open internet forum for god's sake! There IS such a thing as too much information.

If you are already a skilled discusser of Type 1 tech, you should easily be able to look at any post, and within seconds, be able to determine the value of the data.

Indeed. And you would have to make these ten-second jugdment calls about 500 times a day, which would be OK if we got payed to browse the internet... This stuff isn't my job, you know. I don't wanna search for hours on end to find that one good list I need.

But don't you think we could put aside the idea that you're the only ones who can contribute?

Dude, where does it say new players can't contribue? Zherbus has set up a whole SYSTEM for newer players to become great at Type One in his goddamn spare time. For one thing, everyone can sign up. These people can read all the boards, even the high-quality ones. As if that's not enough, they are even allowed to post in two separate forums which are moderated closely and where questions are answered by knowledgeable players. These players even note the progress of the more formidable of the newbies and might eventually even promote them to full membership

based on the knowledge they've shown.

This means that people who don't make full member eventually a. don't have that creative spark you speak of, or b. can't be bothered to make an effort. Either way, I don't see the benefit of having them around.

And that's a pretty lenient system considering my final point: this is not a democracy. TMD is a house. It's Steve's house and he's invited us to come in and play and exchange ideas. He and he alone decides what rooms we can go into and who has more priviliges than others. If you don't like it you can go home. But you sure as hell can't go around bitching like you've got a right to anything.

[TheFram]

First of all:

Whoever brought up the Nazi comparison. SHUT UP. You only minimize the pain and suffering that my grandparents endured by calling Zherbus a Nazi. This is insensitive in the highest regard. (Removed expletives -- Leviat)

Zherbus does not deserve this, and neither does anyone who endured that travesty of humanity.

Secondly:

There is a marked difference in the volume of new ideas being passed through each forum. I think it is highly ironic that the most posts being made in the (Closed) Type 1 Forum right now are in Eastmans "Decline of the Meta, and the upswing of secrecy" themed topic.

I told Molot on aim, when we were speaking about the old TMD, that I felt there were no posts with any valuable content in the (Closed) Type 1 forum at the time. In fact I dont think there had been a new post in a few days at that point. I told him that I was beginning to see no reason to attain full membership in a site where full membership means keeping my mouth shut. I believe he concurred, and told me that he had not had to Mod any topics in that forum for a month due to the new team mentality. At that time the extreme vintage forum (now defunct) had not been posted in in 2-3 weeks. At the moment  the only valuable posts in that forum are the ones linking to primers (which are all excellent, thanks to their writers) or articles (some of which are not useful either).

If these the above is the inevitable byproduct of membership, I fear that I will never attain such status since I will quickly become dissolussioned with the site and stop posting the volume that I currenty do. I sincerely hope that it is not, since I like this site very much.

-Thefram

[leviat]

Thread reopened. Lets try to keep this on the topic of how TMD is setup and just avoid the Nazi issues.

[SpencerForHire]

Well I would like to take this time to suggest to those of you who are less then happy with the forums that you can do three different things.

1) Deal with it, just go along with your business on the site.

2) Leave.

3) Suggest a new "better" way to check who diserves to be in the restricted access section.

Keep in mind none of these options involve continual complaints. I am embarrassed that this has occured on this site when it is Zherbus who has put this toghethor with much money out of his pocket I am sure as well as in his free time when he probably could do many other things instead.

Hell, I was angry at the themanadrain.com about 6 months ago, so I left. But I realize its a good resource so I just came back.
Keep up the good work Zherbus, Mods, you have MY support.. (for what little bit that matters)

[Jhaggs]

Just before the old forum collapsed, Azhrei had a thread going where he encouraged the new memers and the older ones to post questions and seek advice from the paragons. I did noit view this as elitist and certainly felt that it was generous of Azhrei, who hardly plays at all now, to give up his time to forward the project.

I think Bebe's point about Azhrei's thread in the old newbi forums deserves to be re-emphazied.  That thread was extremely helpful, well written, and well put together.  I really would encourage the powers that be to ramp up and start something simillar again.  It was a great thread for new people to ask about "why something is done this particular way" without the fear of being berated.  Further, it was a great thread for veterans to explore current theories.  I can't imagine why anyone would view that as elitist.  (Did I use "elitist" correctly in that sentence?  With a pipeline that taps into a well of tremendous players that anyone can access, is there any topic that would go unexplored?  I would love to see that thread re-introduced, preferrably with a link that acessed the old thread (I haven't found it yet in the archieves.)

[Jacob Orlove]

First, a side issue:

The FAQ says that posters may be promoted even based on one post. I would enjoy seeing examples of this. Not a primer, but a solid post that shows a clear grasp of T1. Is there a possibility for some sort of "welcoming thread" in the T1 forum to show who the newest member was and maybe give a brief reason why they were promoted? This may seem like a hassle, but if examples were provided about good posts and good posters, we would know what kind of content to aim for.

The problem with this is that we want people to post the same way that they will when they become a member, not to ape someone else until they get their membership. Also, there is no "one right way" to post; a primer might get one person in, but a few knowledgeable pieces of advice might do it for someone else. One point, though, is that while one post may be enough, establishing a solid pattern of good posts is probably the most effective way to get an upgrade, for the simple reason that anyone who demonstrates that they can and will post consistly, and with intelligence, is almost by definition the ideal member of TMD.

The skills you have at playing magic and building decks are an important prerequisite for being able to post reasonable stuff, but it doesn't matter how good you are if you can't communicate, because communication is the purpose of these boards.

And that brings me to the main point of the original post, that the current system "stifles" communication. Nothing could be further from the truth. On the one hand, players with less experience posting (note: I did NOT say less experience with T1 or with magic, just with TMD), have a forum where they can learn both about the forum, and about the site. Everyone has a forum where we can all talk about T1, and where people can discuss ideas brought up in the "closed" forum (to answer a question from an earlier poster, just putting a link to the discussion, and adding your own thoughts is enough, if you want to start a parallel thread). This is the perfect forum for innovation, which was a weak point with the old setup. The "closed" forum allows for high-quality discussion of established decks and archetypes; all the posters there have demonstrated both the knowledge necessary for such discussions, and the ability to post in a manner that facilitates dialogue. It is only that forum that keeps the top players from retreating completely to their team discussion boards/mailing lists.


As an aside, when Zherbus was talking about the temp boards, he was referring to their horrible software--NOT to the users posting there. It would have been too much work to move that much data to this site, because of how badly those free boards are put together. Keep in ming, he runs the site, so when he talks about the site, that's what he means--the actual software and hardware that lets us communicate as we are doing. If he'd meant the people posting there, he would have said so.

[DavidHernandez]

i think it's important to recognize that this is really a PRIVATE forum.  It is paid for and maintained by one person (or at most, very few), and it is maintained and moderated for free.

the fact that just about anyone can get an account is really amazing.  Personally, i would be happy PAY a regular fee to be a member of this community.

we are here by invitation.  After gaining the trust of the owners, extra privileges are often awarded.  

if you compare it to driving, remember that NOT everyone is issued a license simply because they are 'of age'.

--dave.

[Ric_Flair]

Be grateful that you can see the content of this site at all.  Many teams have their own boards which are exclusively the perview of team members.  The fact that TMD exists and this level of tech is openly discussed is remarkable.  Comments like this have no concept of reality.  TMD is a blessing.  BE GRATEFUL.

[Di]

If you want to see what happens when we open the flood-gates, as if looking at the Brainburst or MTGNews forums weren't enough, then look long and hard at TMD's temp forums.

Just look at The Source, it was suppose to be the TMD of T1.5 but with open membership, go read the forums and compare it to these forums, you'd be amazed.

Yes, it does have open membership, and yes members are allowed to post where they please. I, as an Administrator on the website realize what can happen, but it doesn't. You know why? Becuase we as moderators do our jobs. We are also very strict enforcing rules on the website. In addition to that, we have our own "Newbie Forum", which we call the "Developmental Forum". It's where anyone can go to post their crappy ideas, or ideas that they have, but aren't strong enough to compete in a tournament, etc. I personally think that's doing a great job.

It's kinda the reason why a lot of us left TMD(well, not leave the website, just the 1.5 forum) is because there were those hordes of spammers and scrubs ruining it all, and we were sick of it. As I said earlier in the post, the reason The Source is functioning really well is because the site is being moderated fairly well. The rest of TMD was doing really good with this too(minus the n00b forum), except for the 1.5 Forum, because we never really had much moderation. It was pretty good when Shadowlotus was on it, but then he was busy or something, and didn't have the time to do it. Jacob Orlove was already doing the n00b forum, and Zherbus had his hands tied with the rest of the website, leaving us with nobody to watch over the board, and it eventually turned into chaos. For a little while, maybe a month or so, drg` moded the board, but due to his own schedule was unable to do it, and we were then left without moderation. So, then The Source got organized, and that's where we are now.

But, on the note of The Source being the "TMD of 1.5", I think you're right on that. In some ways, I also consider it to be the "Little Brother" of TMD.

[jeek]

There's already a perfect example of what happens when you let anyone use a particular communications medium. Just ask anyone who's had the same e-mail address for more than one year when it has appeared on a web page somewhere.

Pages and pages of crap that has nothing to do with anything... to get the occasional message that's actually worth reading.

A whitelist of accepted addresses is the easiest way of cutting through the crap. However, in the medium of a forum, that's sort of unreasonable to implement, so we end up with forums where you have to prove yourself to be heard by anyone respectable. It's the best possible solution given the medium.

[Saucemaster]

Well, this is the most prime example of how MtG is evolving from a fun TCG to a bunch of fag jockey club members. Its retarded how members of this so called damned "inner-circle" believe only the ideas that they spew forth are worth anybody's trouble.

Two points:

1) if anything, the new system (whereby Vintage Adepts also function as Mods in the open type 1 and newbie forums) actually involves most of the "inner circle" to a far greater extent than they were on the old TMD.  I never even used to visit the old newbie forum on the old TMD unless I received a PM from someone asking me to comment in a thread or was referred there by a link in the Type 1 forum.  Now I at least scan some of the more interesting topics.

2) This is one fag jockey club member who not only doesn't listen to the basic users, I don't even listen to the inner circle!  It's all me, baby, all me.  Now get that sweet ass over here.

example: 9-breaker smacking on Apex in the Brainburst.com forums for making a "suture ghoul" deck, calling it second rate shit noobie shit, when at the same time smmemen is making such a deck, and recieves "helpful insight" from the "Closed Type 1 Forum

I believe you've just accidentally made Zherbus' point for him.  Let me get this straight: TMD sucks because on the Brainburst forums, people get decklists flamed for being "second rate noobie shit", but over here on TMD, you can get some real commentary.  Damn those fag jockey club members!

I completely agree with browser about how this concept is completely flawed. There is NO reason to assume that people that are new or just newbies to the Vintage format are just a bunch of idiots that spew out "Squirrel Craft" decks with 4 copies of Earthcraft.

No one is.  If Z felt that all the newbies to Vintage were just a bunch of idiots, there would be no "promotion" system in place at all.  In fact, as I alluded to above, Z has actually increased the number of inner circle fag jockey club members who can moderate and recommend "promotions" from the basic user pool.  It should actually be easier now for someone who really does have alot to contribute to our collective discussions to get the full access to the boards that EVERYONE, including the inner circle fag jockey club members (I'm not going to let that die), would like to see them receive.

Honestly, Id rather get an explanation of how cards interact and how good they are, rather than go to a Vintage Forum or starcitygames.com and read about "Card Theory" and how "You gain or lose card disadvantage by casting a cantrip." Seriously, wtf. Its incredibly boring how people can somehow wring so much bs out of a card game like "Card Theory." Yet another prime example of how I find some inner circle forum members actually spew out a bunch of illegible shit rather than a "good read"

Not much to say on this, except that theory is precisely what forms the background of any good critique of card interaction and card quality.  You cannot delve into the particulars, especially in a field that changes as rapidly as M:TG, without having some theoretical background with which to work.  If our inner circle fag jockey club member illegible shit bores you, maybe you should just sit still and watch us race our pretty horses and pat each other on the ass.  At the very least, you get to sit on the sidelines and potentially profit from our discussions--let us race in peace.

[jazzykat]

I have only a personal posting statement to make. Since, I can't post in the hardcore forums, I look at them a lot less. Since, I rarely can contribute constructively there is no loss to TMD community (there might be if a good player couldn't post there, but then they would get selected to be a full memeber...right?).

I am happy to get to go on here, and stay up with the metagame,as I am in a metagame of scrubs(excluding boas and apes, who is good) where people think, burn decks, 5 color keeper decks with doomsday still in them are going to beat my newest and fastest version of tog.

[kirdape3]

Personally, the boards right now are just as a gauge for where everyone else is at.  Thank God it's normally at a much more primitive level of development than what I would get on the team e-mails.

Honestly, it is only through the grace of whatever deity you believe in (or Zherbus if you don't) that you're allowed here at all.  If you don't like it, leave and we will be the better for it.