[Discuss] Gay/R

[BreathWeapon]

I am not meta gaming against Oath, I am stating that one of PTW's creature bases strengths is that it is highly resistant to Oath. This is one of the reasons to not change it a great deal, which I think will become a more prevalent point in the next month or so. People turn a blind eye to Oath, and its probably going to catch up with them at some point.

Oath isn't exactly dead vs Combo, TPS isn't popular and the game against Dragon is reasonable with 2 Gaea's Blessings and a Spike Weaver. If you run U/G/w you can Wish for a Funeral Pyre game 1.

[Rico Suave]

Listen, Oath is a bad deck in T1.  Please stop using it as a reason to do one thing or another.  

Bouncer maindeck is an option if you see tons of Madness critters, but as a card in the deck it is bad.  It has no evasion and is awful against control.  I also haven't seen any metagame that has enough Madness critters to warrant Bouncer.

[Misemaster]

The bouncer is good against quite a number of decks as I already listed not just madness.  It is bad against keeper but it is just fine against hulk. If your metagame is dominated by keeper than obviously dont play bouncer main. However you metagame does not have to be dominated by madness to make the bouncer a good maindeck choice. Its good against dragon, mask, madness, big 0, hulk, gat and okay against welder mud. All pretty good decks if you ask me.

[Rico Suave]

I'll tell you what.  Since you said you didn't playtest it yet, I would recommend giving that a try before having me try to further explain why other choices are better.

I can tell you I've played it before, and it's just not good enough to make the cut.

[Moxlotus]

I use the PTW creature base and for my annoying blue spells I use 2 Stifle and 2 Daze, cutting Misdirection altogether but going up to 4 maindeck Null Rods. I'm not sure about the Mis'D cuts because it is still under testing. Although I am a fan of the random card because it can throw your opponent off. He cast Daze...how many does he have? 1 or 4?
If I didn't have blue power I would add 2 Mis'd.

My sideboard for a random metagame would be something like:
2-Stifle
2-Fire/Ice
3-Tormod's Crypt
3-REB
2-Maze of Ith
2-Rack and Ruin
1-Energy Flux

It has at least 4 cards (I think) to bring in against pretty much any deck(except maybe 1).

I have written out a speculation of how to SB (not tested yet-I was sooooo bored at work one day I made this up) against:

Keeper(scepter and scepterless)
Tog(wasteland version and moxen version)
U/r Landstill
U/w Landstill
TNT
Prison Decks
Mask
Sligh
Suicide
R/G beatz
Dragon
neo-Long.dec
Gay/r (the mirror)
Madness
Oshawa

I don't really want to post my ideas because they are (mostly) completely untested and I could be wrong on a few matches, especially ones that I don't play too often anyway.  However if a few people want me to I would be more than happy when I find the time.

I don't really think that many people play mask because it is hard to get the cards (although the Mazes and artifact hate are still there).  I will have to try out Rootwater Hunters because I've not been impressed with the Hatchlings, but prefer them to Thieves.  If I used Hunters I would try to fit in Sigils somewhere.

[Nastaboi]

1 library of draw me cards
4 mishra's factory
3 faerie conclaive
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 volcanic island
4 fetch
3 island

About the mana base. How are those three Conclaves working out? I see you have cut a fetch for one. I play with five fetches and still find myself drawing island after island late game sometimes. I do not own the Library so I can cut one basic and still play with three Conclaves and five fetches, I have to test it out.

Well, I do not have the blue power and I go with heavy 4x Stifle and 2x Misdirection. Mis-Ds are good both versus bad aggro and control, both of which I see much here. Daze is too situational, and early one puts your back in mana developement. I just feel Stifle so much better, there are many Dragon players and fetchlands here.

[wuaffiliate]

Considring the rise of big O has anyone considered running a waterfrount bouncer/ gilded drake creature base in Gay/r? I have not tested it as of yet but it does seem like it could have many advantages. Razorfin hunter and sigil of sleep have been suggest as a solution but  think that the bouncer and gilded drake are a more powerful solution.

bouncer is very good, one of my fav creatures actually. drake is not needed imo, bouncer is more of a swiss army knife card than drake is. drake + bouncer is amazing, but the odds of that happening consistantly will take a big creature base overhaul, plus the board is pretty tight. bouner is deffinately a contender, plus is helps vs the all mighty Oath match :lol:. i can only see him in the board really, in my metagame he would be a house, but as Rico said he isnt maindeck material.

sigil isnt only usefull with razor fin, remember every creature besides 3-4 kais have evasion.

1 library of draw me cards
4 mishra's factory
3 faerie conclaive
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 volcanic island
4 fetch
3 island

About the manabase. How are those three Conclaves working out? I see you have cut a fetch for one. I play with five fetches and still find myself drawing island after island late game sometimes. I do not own the Library so I can cut one basic and still play with three Conclaves and five fetches, I have to test it out.

i really like my mana base, i see so many stifles its silly. i never found 5 fetches to be important, i never like getting alot of fetches, after hundreds of games 4 was right for me. i droped 1 for a conclaive because i wanted to have a better landstill match, and i like my threats. i droped sapphire for a 3rd island because im never pleased to see sapphire unless its a turn 1 standstill. i hate having land, mox, cloud in my hand it pisses me off to no end. not to mention basic lands are good and arent affected by my own/others rods .

[Blitzbold]

I am sorry for not going into detail in my last post. There are of course also good reasons for playing Voidmage Prodigy over Rootwater Thief and vice versa. Both of them require mana for activating their ability. I often found it difficult to keep UU open for using the mage's ability, though, and therefore switched back to Rootwater. I agree with Wuaffiliate that countering a B2B is often better than trying to rip them of their deck when there are better targets to be removed such as Yawgmoth's Will or Cunning Wish. I also agree with you that Stax is not a bad matchup because of the excellent sideboard options Gay/r offers. Please take my examples as what they were ment to be: examples  

[Rico Suave]

If you find it difficult to keep UU open, then I don't see how you have any legitimate reason to switch over to Thief who also uses 2 mana for it's ability, except is a weaker threat.

If you want to use Voidmage's Ability, then leave mana open.  If you want to play more spells, then do that.  Either way, Thief would not be better in either instance.

[DEA]

a few interesting points to add
vmp can sac grim lavamancers to counter spells too
vmp is a 2/1 cf 1/2 for mike long
against decks with built-in redundancy mike long has to hit many many many times to make any impact
most importantly, by countering the spell the caster has wasted his resources for that turn
vmp is also uncounterable by normal counterspells

[Jamino]

How exactly do you plan on once you have control keeping that if you have 4 force of wills only as counters?
No matter how much you draw off curiositys and standstill, the problem is the same, unles you have another form of counters, the opponent will not have much difficulty resolving a big Yawgmoths Will, or a Balance.
Voidmage prodigy turns alot of cards that would be dead once you have one or two, into cards that will help you maintain control. Not only that but as was said before he is a beat stick.
I promiss you if you play a few games against keeper or hulk, unless you get that godly land D crazyness in the first few turns, they will break your standstill, cast a balance or another game turning spell and while you may be drawing like crazy they just wont care as they will almost always out counter you.
Yes, this is an extreme. CHances are you will probably end up with two counters (counting MisD), but how much to they care? That is leaving you with two more counters in your deck, and there deck being full of bombs will not particularily miss one unless its the will.
However with the prodigy, once you already have the beats, you can coninu applying preassure, and always sac a Mancer or a Prodigy to keep that control. Someon said that it is to mana intensive.
While it is true that for it to be used to its maximum potential its good to have some man open, but dont forget you still do have those force of wills, and you do not need to play as mant creatures as the wizard beats for more. Ontop of that, alot of your spells are free, you can cast a cloud of faeres or two, and still play/par for you prodigy.
There is no viable reason to play the rootwater theif over the prodigy unless you are in a really combo dominated meta, and even then this deck generally has a good game vs combo anyways or that you play the deck simply like an aggro deck and not the aggro/control it should be.
Sorry if it sounds a little harsh,
Hope this helps.
 Jamino

[trancefusion]

vmp is also uncounterable by normal counterspells

Yes, its true that normal counterspells can't counter the vmp ability, but (as you alluded to) you can stifle the activated ability and due to the fact that stifle is making an appearance in a variety of decks this bonus is not as big as it once may have been. I use to play monu-U fish alot, but this UR version looks very strong and I think I will do some testing with the vmp inclusion and discover for myself its power (I use to run the rootwater).

[wuaffiliate]

stifle isnt a concern when playing kai, if they want to stifle it they can go ahead, thats less protection for their lands vs my wastelands.

I really dont think there should be any arguments over kai, its obvious to ANYONE who plays the deck for any extended period of time that its an automatic inclusion.

has anyone been running mask of memory in their builds?

[Petko]

The problem with Mask is that you won't be able to run them in addition to Null Rods without a distinctive lack of synergy.

I find the idea of having these additional 'Curiosities' interesting. Fish's creatures have evasion and will easily be able to get hits in, except for Grim Lavamancer, which a Mask on would be pretty moot.

The thing is that Null Rod is an absolute MUST. In an environment filled with wMUD, IsoKeeper, Illusionary Mask, Landstill, and other decks heavily relying on Moxen, Null Rod is just a house. I see the advantage coming from a Mask on swinging creatures but this means I will not be running Null Rod.

[DEA]

i'm starting to sound like a broken record  

yup, the more stifles they have for vmp, the less they have for my wastelands = more free land D goodness

and null rod will save yo ass
i was watching a fully powered long.dec (pre restrictions) staring down a gay/r fish deck in the finals of a tournament, and the long player was soo aggravated by the consistent turn 2 null rods that he commented that 'if there was a deck meant to hose long, this must be it'
i've had many many games against it (gay/r) and was always pissed to see null rod shutting down my artifact mana sources as well as karn and pentavus
not to mention illusionary mask
null rod is a must, no doubt about it

[wuaffiliate]

the thing about mask is the metagame, i play at a t1 tourney every week that really doesnt give me any reason to play rods(or my opponents). so i run mask of memory.

it feeds lavamancer like whoa, it digs deeper getting me what i need. plus its never card disadvantage.

maybe even as a SB card mask may be very good, ive found it hard to feed my lavamancer vs aggro alot of the time, mask would deal with this quite well. and vs keeper or blue based non landstill control i always find rods lacking, MoM is so good vs control, better than curiosity.

[Shaman]

I have been playing Gay/r for 5 months now and I found this post rather useful.
I have a simple question for all of you who are scared by the landstill match-up, and want to improve their performance adding the third conclave. Why don't you consider the addition of Black Vise? It can be a huge hoser against the mirror too (expecially for the mirror, since they don't run N's Disks), and against ANY control deck a first turn Vise can be rather painful for your opponents. Moreover, thay won't expect you to side this in, so they won't run any sort of removal for it, excepet for Landstill's Disk (but you have Rods to deal with them anyway). Obviously you have to cast it soon in order to get a strong impact on the match, but I find it more useful against control/landstill/fish than the third conclave.
I would be glad to hear some thoughts of you about Black Vise.

Thanks

(pardon my poor English   )

[Hi-Val]

Trade Routes can also help the Landstill matchup. Suddenly their Strips don't do anything and your manlands come back forever. It seems to have power to it.

[Petko]

It's a cute idea but Gay/r isn't a kind of deck that can support such a card.

Mana is very important in this deck. You will not be using the Trade Route's ability to be discarding land, so that leaves you with the single ability of returning land to your hand.

Although I think I know what you're trying to accomplish with it, ensuring that your manlands do not succomb to combat damage or Strip/Waste effects, I don't think it merits the inclusion of this card.

Gay/r runs a plethora of threats; its not a huge loss if your Faerie Conclave or Mishra's Factory gets Stripped or Wasted as you have a large threat density. Besides, what kind of an opponent attempts to destroy one of your lands if you have a Trade Routes on the table?

You are also constantly dumping mana into Faerie Conclaves, Mishra's Factories, and Grim Lavamancers. You are also trying to whip out threats constantly to overwhelm your opponent. Let's face it - you're not going to town with a lone Cloud of Faeries. Keeping mana open for Voidmage Prodigy is almost a hassle itself, let alone keeping mana open for Trade Routes to act as a deterrant. Mana is extremely tight in this deck, and Trade Routes is a luxury that it cannot afford.