[Deck Discussion] Nether Void

[HuntedWumpus]

****THIS IS NOT A UPDATED LIST****, page nine now has the latest list and commentary.

I have created this thread in the Open fourm after much succes in the newb with a similar thread. I would like to pick apart and discuss the arctype i have recenly found a taste for.


Nether Void

8 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Llanowar wastes
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Nether Void
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Specter

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Negator
3 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Choke
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize

***List Updated Further in Post***

Card Analysis:

The mana Base:
8 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Llanowar wastes
3 Mishra's Factory *yes i am aware his is more of a creature
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual

Pretty standard i think, i have trimmed down the number of fetch's and it seems to perform well without thinning to much land out of a mana hungry deck. 3 Wasteland EWWWW i know, but loosing a black source would break my heart right now(and my back too). As for the factory, some builds have removed him entirly,  but the synergy with void is pretty solid. He also tends to draw the targets of waste/strip instead of bayou.

Disruption/Distruction(heart and sould of void) :
(3 waste, 1 strip)
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Nether Void

I have not found myself wishing for the last wasteland yet, granted 4 would be better but the current build allows for messing with opponents color balance and key lands. Combine with Hippie the early hits of duress and hymn often will allow me to drop the leathal beatings, and possible void to seal the game. Deed is a champ, but not 4 slots worth of a champ i dont think. Lastly i have found 3 voids optimum.

Broken/Restricted(non mana):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence

Pretty standard fair here aswell, Debates over Consultation vs Vamp tutor can rage for days, but i use consultation primarly as a last ditch A$$ saver, and getting a card NOW is important; hence i run consultation. Im not usre weather Sylvan Library should be in here. I would like to work it in, but dont have a slot to give. Any ideas?

Beats:
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Specter

Different than you may have seen if void hasent caught your attention in awhile. I have removed negator because he simply is not durable enough to be run with mask, and oshawa running around; On top of that a turn 1 negator can be owned with fireice.  He has found a home in the board. Shade is very durable and is the forefront of Void's assault.  Hippie is fairly standard and good. Withered Wretch, yes thats right a 2/2 for BB with an ability that shuts off mucho amounts of good stuff; Dragon is shut down, squee is gone, Yawg Win is reduced to a joke, and Hulk hates this guy. All that from one aswome black creature. Blurred mongoose is a card that i swore by, and if i had the room i would put him in my board, but unless control is the only deck you ever see.... hippie and wretch are both better. Lets just not forget him.

SB:
2 Phyrexian Negator
3 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Choke
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize

90% of my tournament vintage is played at Don's of San Diego. The meta consits of vairous forms of control, some aggro(mask and oshawa), and dragon. Not to much other combo is seen there. My SB reflects this and usually works well. YES!!! i am aware that Chains of Mephistopheles needs to be in the board but i dont have any... anyone looking to unload a few :lol:

So what you all think. Right now i would like to get some general feed back and views of Sylvan Library, if it should go in, and what to cut.


***List Updated Further in Post***

[tehmajickguy]

Your list looks almost exactly like the one I play except we have a couple differences in our land, and a few different choices in the board. One thing I've been testing in the board are 2 Perish, since Big O, Madness, and GAT/Gro seem to be becoming very popular nowadays. Troll Ascetic in the Big O deck can be very problematic, as he can chump block your guys except for Hippie all day long and never go down. He survives Deed and unless you can get him to be the only creature on the board and then edict, he can be problematic. Perish has been testing quite well and seems to dispatch with Big O and Madness quite well. It may be something you'd want to try testing out.

[HuntedWumpus]

what about count on mana source's are we close there?

[tehmajickguy]

My deck looks like this:

4 Bayou
8 Swamp
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Nether Void

4 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Specter

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard:

2 Diabolic Edict
4 Naturalize
3 Choke
2 Contagion
2 Perish
2 Masticore

[MarkPharaoh]

grrr, I was going to do a huge post on this deck (was hoping that it would of gotten the full membership commitee's attention).  It's too late for me to discuss anything so I will post tomorrow

[Laertes]

Consider using Tainted Wood instead of Llanowar Wastes.  I prefer the wood.  There are not a signifiacnt amount cards in the environment that can keep you from having a swamp in play. Since the more woods you have then the less swamps, it not a 4-of thing, just use 2.

The Bloodstained Mire is superior to Polluted Delta because opponents may mistake this deck for bloody suicide.  Bloodstained mire is definately better than Llanowar Wastes, so up the fetchlands to 4. One time pain is just better than repeated pain.

The void itself often is a weak card: hitting the board too late to make a difference.  This flaw in the heart of the deck is the the void and i'm not sure how to fix it.

Landstill has stolen void's niche as the budget-frienldly aggro-control deck of choice.  Anyway, having a 4 wasteland (5th strip effect) puts you in good shape vs. landstill, plus dragon and others.  Its pretty good if you keep voids in your deck, or so I hear.

Despite having 3 wretches in the main, I think that some additional graveyard hate is in order.  It takes 3 mana open and a wretch in play to stop a burried alive/intuition.  I'd use 2 planar voids in the side.  This can stop the " flood the grave in 1 turn" strategy.

In Kerz's  article about the viable deck in T1, sligh is no longer on the list.  In fact, there are no weenie decks, except possibly fish/gayR.  The masticores may need to go, depending on your environment.  The 3 deeds you already have are pretty good at clearing the board.

Also, against artifact prison, a 1 CC solution is superior to a 2 or 3CC solution.  Having 1 naturalize [bad joke] turn into a oxidize just may just be your ticket out of jail [/bad joke].

My applogies to any readers and mods- I'm a little drunk at time of posting.

edit: updated crumble to oxidize

[HuntedWumpus]

@ laertes:  First point, running 4 fetchland is not really an option unless you have a very mana fat build. It thinn's out valuable mana sorces.

Second, formula is Disruption + Land D (precise land d to weaken opponent) + lay beatings + Void. Generally when a void hit, opponents have less hand size low mana sources( thanks to deed and Land D ). And is serves to cripple them and make any soultions to the beating hard to execute.

[MarkPharaoh]

Who the hell tries to make a serious post while drunk?

Anyway, I think overall this build is pretty solid.  The creature base is what I would use but I am not too fond of your manabase.  With an enviroment full of five strip effects in addition to nonbasic hosers like Moon and B2B I don't like  having so few green sources.  Yes, I know you can just sit on a fetchland until you need the green but I do not like doing that as in the first five turns you'll be using every mana you can use and after that you need to activate Factories, pump Shades and maybe even play spells under a Void.   I would try to find room for Llanowar Wastes #2 and 3.

This leads me to your your strip count.  DO ANYTHING TO FIND ROOM FOR THAT 4TH WASTELAND!  Seriously, even if you think three Wastelands are working fine for you find room for the fourth.  With the field having more and more Stifles in it, the more you need.  For a deck with hand and land disruption, you NEED five strip effects.

Lastly, your sideboard.  It's ok in general, but I do not agree with some of the numbers.  With a deck with so little card drawing, I really don't like having less then three of something in the board.  I find that in order to draw something consistently in this deck you need atleast three. Since you have mostly control in your meta, why are you only running two Negators and two Chokes?  Since you have little aggro in your meta and the aggro decks you do see are pretty resilent against Masticore I suggest you cut them all together.  Based on what you said your metagame is I propose this sideboard:

3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Null Rod
3 Naturalize
3 Choke
3 Diabolic Edict

[HuntedWumpus]

im thinking about removing the factories for the last wasteland, a sylvan and somthing else. Btw i must have masticore in my board, sligh makes apperances, and oshawa is becoming played,

[tehmajickguy]

The factories just don't do enough in the deck nowadays. The deck already has 4 Shades, 3 Wretches, and 3 Hippies to do your dirty work, Factories just take up space. If you're gonna run Masticores in your board, run 2 unless your meta is aggro-soaked. And Big O is not a problem is you have Perish in the board. It pwns Big O all day long.

[MarkPharaoh]

I don't see Masticore doing much against Oshawa with there Naturalizes and Rods and creatures that simply won't die to the Core.

[theorigamist]

Just a quick thought: Has anybody considered Nether Void with Trinisphere?  If I understand it correctly, cards would cost a minimum of six to play (assuming the Trinisphere pumps the card to 3 before Void takes effect).  If I don't understand correctly (equally likely) then they would be useless together because Void would make cards cost more than 3 on its own and therefore render Trinisphere useless.  But it's probably worth checking into anyway.

Other than that, I think 4/2 Wretch/Hyppie would be better than 3/3.  Wretch is so good against so many decks right now (Slavery, tons of combo, madness, etc.), and it's a two drop instead of three for the same power/toughness.

[HuntedWumpus]

I like the 3/3 hippie, whretch creature split. Assuming i remove the remaining 3 factories. What should Be added +1 waste +1 sylvan +1 BLANK

[MarkPharaoh]

+1 Waste, +2 Llanowar Wastes

[tehmajickguy]

@ Hunted Wumpus: Last spot should be Dust Bowl. Just spent a couple hours playtesting the deck and Bowl is a house in the current metagame, especially under a Void.

[tehmajickguy]

@ the origamist: Trinisphere and Nether Void do work well together. Trinisphere alters the cc of a card, while Void doesn't. Void just says that the spell is countered unless the caster pays another 3 for it.  It may very well be worth testing out.

[HuntedWumpus]

so we all support the movements to

-3 factory

+1 Wasteland
+1 sylvan library
+1 Somthing

Im not sure weather i can afford to use dust bowl here, It eats land that i need

[theorigamist]

themajickguy, actually, Trinisphere does not adjust the CC.  The wording, as I've seen it, is as follows:

As long as Trinisphere is untapped, each spell that would cost less than three mana to play costs three mana to play.

I think this wording was carefully designed to still prevent UU Broodstars or Myrs made free by Affinity.

Although you are right in that because of the wording of Nether Void, the cards do make as strong a combination as I thought.

[Enigma]

On the +1 something spot you were refering to, I believe someone had suggesting skeletal scrying. I really haven't tested it that much, but the deck could benefit from card drawing. Maybe including 1 may not be such a bad idea?

As for trinisphere, it's a very interesting card. I believe a couple questions should be answered first though. First off, is the inclusion of trinisphere necessary, does it benefit the deck at all? Also what cards are you going to cut to make room in a deck already packed so tight? I personally will try it out, but i'd be interested in how other peoples testing goes.

[tehmajickguy]

I'm gonna try to work in 2 Skeletal Scryings into my build and test them out. I'll let everyone know if they're worth adding. As far as Trinisphere goes, it seems like it may strengthen this deck, but we'll only know after testing. The problem I have with the card is that it makes our disruption less efficient, and efficient disruption is the heart of this deck.

[jeremyc_1999]

Put in a 4th deed.  The card wins games.  I have tested extensively with both 3 and 4 and it really is 4 good.  I also think you need 4 wasteland.  Take out the mox emerald for it.  If you play smart with fetchland/wastes you will be able to have the 1 green you need for deed.  Wasteland is another disruption spell.  It is free under void and can keep your opponents from playing a spell for a turn.  Add a 4th Deed.

[Gimli]

I have been trying to create a mono black version of Nether Void but it is extremely hard to do. Now I'm testing all constructions with green to find my way.

In MonoB I used 5 Strip effects and it was still not enough. I think that 4x Wasteland is a must. I tested 1 Dustbowl in place of 4th Wasteland and this card is very risky. During one day of playtesting in #magic-league where almost everyone use the same decks from win column (Stax, Grow, Dragon and Tog) I played 40 matches (92 games). This single Dust Bowl alone won for me 10 games and also was very useful in other 14 games. The other fact is that in 17 cases if it was 4th Wasteland it would change everything. Now when I'm testing Void with green I think that there is no place for such toys. BG Void is more mana hungry than MonoB.

Using Skeletal Scrying depends of you meta. In real life around me there is so much Sligh and other beatdown decks that I cannot use them and mighty Necropotence

[MarkPharaoh]

I personally don't like Dust Bowl in Void for a few reasons:

-You use every mana source that you draw, i'd rather kill my opponent then blow up his lands.
-Bowl is simply too slow against both combo and the better aggro decks.
-Control has the tools to stop it (Waste, Strip, Stifle and possibly Teferi's).

[JACO]

I personally don't like Dust Bowl in Void for a few reasons:

-You use every mana source that you draw, i'd rather kill my opponent then blow up his lands.
-Bowl is simply too slow against both combo and the better aggro decks.
-Control has the tools to stop it (Waste, Strip, Stifle and possibly Teferi's).

Dust Bowl is a very personal card, but I use it and advocate its use for a few reasons.
1. It can singlehandedly shut an opponent out of a color in their deck (Red, White, or Black against Keeper, for example).
2. It is amazing against Fish and UR Fish.
3. It is amazing against Landstill.
4. It can provide tons of disruption, which is one of the keys to keeping your opponent off balance, which is in turn one of the keys to winning with Nether Void-based decks.

Although it does eat up some of your lands, the odds are that you are playing at least as many mana sources as other Type 1 decks (if not more), and Dust Bowl can provide reusable land destruction/disruption. If I can do that at end of opponent's turn and they want to waste a blue card in hand like Stifle or Cunning Wish to counter-act what I'm trying to do, then that is fine with me. There is more and more where it is coming from when you use Dust Bowl. Like I've said before, and I'll say it again, you cannot always build the deck like you are always going to be operating with a Nether Void already in play (for example, why put in Dark Rituals then??).

EDIT:

so we all support the movements to

-3 factory
+1 Wasteland
+1 sylvan library
+1 Somthing

Im not sure weather i can afford to use dust bowl here, It eats land that i need

Building your deck isn't a democracy, so don't necessarily base whatever you do by what random people on here way. If you don't like the factories, test out something else. As I've already described, Sylvan Library and Skeletal Scrying are excellent card drawers, and you can never have enough Wastelands (and DUST BOWLS!). Bring a few cards with you to test in those slots the next time you play the deck, and figure out what you're going to put in those slots by seeing what makes the deck stronger or shores up your weaknesses.

[HuntedWumpus]

Well i have decided to make these changes

-3 factory
+1 waste
+1 Sylvan
+1 Scrying

This bring the current build to

Nether Void

8 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Llanowar wastes
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Nether Void
1 Sylvan Library
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Specter

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Negator
3 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Choke
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize

Definatly starting to shape up. All it needs is some Chains of Mephistopheles in the board. That would be nice... it i could find some...

[Enigma]

I personally think the deck looks really strong. I would probably run another deed over the library, but thats only because my metagame has a lot of aggro. I think i'll try testing out trinisphere today hopefully i'll get enough testing in to share my results.

[DavidHernandez]

hm...

that list looks a lot better to me.

i have issues with Sylvan and Necro in the same deck, because Necro nullifies the Sylvan and you end up with a dead card (no draw phase = dead Sylvan).

This is an idea i have, and is a little off topic, but i thought you might be interested:

i haven't tested Skeletal Scrying except in Keeper, but i'm beginning to wonder if a Necropotence variant can be built using 1 Necro, 4 Scrying, and 4 Bazaars.  Tap--> Draw --> Discard --> Remove from grave --> Draw.  If the concept has any viability, the deck would need life gain (like old necro did) in the form of Ivory Tower/Zuran Orb/Drain Life, and might even work with a Platinum Angel (if Angel lets you go into Negative Life).

EDIT: i just had a conversation with Tony Soto about this:

-----Original Message-----
From: TONY SOTO

not a bad idea, except that you cannot pay life you do not have. (you can necro to 0, but cannot necro to -1) an effect can however cause you to lose life that will bring you to less than 0, but you cannot pay life you dont have as a cost.

Tony

so, it would work exactly the way Necro used to work.  Scrying would be the same, since you cannot pay life you dont have.

that means it would require life gain, and Platinum Angel would not belong.

dave.



--Dave.[/quote]

[TracerBullet]

The life loss from Scrying isn't paid as a cost- it's an effect of a spell.  As such, you can draw as many cards (and lose as many life) as you have mana in your pool and cards in your grave.


I still don't see it as that smart a plan.  You gotta remember that you're not very likely to have large amounts of mana in your pool, and worse yet, if you do, you're still only gonna draw so many cards per turn.  If anything, what you've got is a ReAnimator deck that uses Platinum Angel and other random stuff that interacts with it.

[DavidHernandez]

like i said, it's just an idea right now.  If it ever works out, i'll post it in the Open Type 1 Forum for review.  There's so much new/cool stuff available for play that it may not be worth living in the Necro Past.

thanks for clarifying the Scrying draw ability.

dave.

[shoplifter]

Also, we shouldn't forget (though I feel I'm probably stating the obvious) that Necropotence and Scrying have terrible synergy when combined with Bazaar, since you'll be removing those discarded cards from the game, nullifying your Scrying (and YawgWill as well).

With a Necro in play, you've got 4 dead cards (Bazaar assuming you want to play Scrying/Will), with a Bazaar just one (necro) and with both Necro and Bazaar in play five (4 Scrying, 1 YawgWill.)

Using just Scrying and Bazaar though, could be a nice draw engine for mono-black or its variants, effectively replacing Necro, rather than working with it.