I actually think this sums up my feelings pretty good. I just can't imagine thousandths of a percent creating a significant disadvantage. Again, in the example I always use, having that Sundering Titan or Triskelion in your deck is well worth that apparent decrease in consistency.


Also, another reason I even started this topic, is because I think a lot of decks have the vast majority of it as auto-inclusion. Look at the Intuition Slaver list that made 2nd at Waterbury. That maindeck is so tight, I wouldn't think about cutting almost every card in there, but if I'm gonna include a metagame card, who's to say that going over 60 is the wrong decision to make?


One other thing. Should I take offense to the fact that this was moved to newbie, even before there was any discussion? It's OK though, I don't even play magic anymore. Still wish I had to the money to do so though...

I guess I'm going to have to argue against myself for a moment.

I think the flaw in my logic is that the 4-cards-to-a-deck rule exists. Even though there might exist a perfect ratio, because we cannot include more copies of the cards already seen to be optimal for a deck, we will dilute the deck with inferior cards.

And this is why I don't think this will apply for the vast majority of the decks. Think of it this way. If I'm running some combo deck, and I cut Lotus Petal from the deck as the 61st card because I want to get to 60 cards and everything else is pretty much necessary. I don't think it's right to exclude it without testing as it might prove having that extra mana source does come in handy.

Bram, while I agree with what you say, I don't think it applies to what I originally had in mind.

While that applies for decks of such high consistency, I was thinking of decks with many 1-of's or with a small amount of one type of card.

Also, even though Trike might not be optimal, cards like Sundering Titan might be useful in the majority of matches in your metagame. In situations like this, I think it is better to go to 61 cards and have that advantage in those matches and take the small penalty of being 61 cards.

Again, this will only apply in very specific situations. I think most of you are blowing out of proportion the "inconsistency" caused by adding 1 card. Especially in decks like Control Slaver, where having that one additional bomb artifact can make a difference, the "inconsistency" is negligable.

But in most decks, especially Control Slaver, you don't want the card in your opening hand.

I think some of you are looking at my arguement wrong. It's not the power of one card vs. the power of another, it is how often a card would be more useful than another. Look at it this way, even though you want to see lots of FoW or Goblin Welder, they are not always what you want.

This goes back to how I broke down cards into three categories. How good are the most broken cards in a deck without the mana to cast them? How good are FoWs when they already got their threat into play?

What I'm saying is that theoretically, there exists a certain ratio of Utility to Threat to Mana that would give a deck the most likely probability of having the optimal hands. This is especially true in decks with a small number of a certain type of card, because even though you may only need one threat to win, you want that threat at the right time. Going from 4-5 may improve the chances. The power level of other cards in the deck shouldn't even be taken into account.

I never specified welders. What if you had a meta full of FCG, where both Trisk and PA were useful. The benefit of having both in your deck will most likely win more games then the VERY rare situation where having a 61st card in your deck somehow cost you a game.


Also, take into account this was more of a theory then an application. It may not apply to decks now, but somewhere down the line it might. Most people are very caught up in convention, and thinking outside convention is what has developed T1.

Did you even read the above posts? You didn't give any explanations and it didn't add to the discussion at all.

I'll elaborate on what I said above. Like in the situation above, the relative increase in threats greatly outweighs the apparent decrease in drawing specific cards.

An increase from 4-5 is MUCH more significant than an increase from 60-61, even though it is just one card in both situations.

It's kind of like the Magic theory of relativity. Relative to the size of the deck, it may seem insignificant, but relative to cards with similar purposes, it may make a big impact.

I agree with both of you. However, I don't think that considering broken cards as a fourth category would change anything. I think of it this way.

Let's say in traditional Control Slaver, you have these threats:
2x Mindslaver
1x Pentavus
1x Platinum Angel
(I'm including Mindslaver because against many decks it's crippling and because of its likelyhood to recur.)

Also, I'm assuming we won't change anything else, as the maindeck has proven to be incredibly tight. Adding a Triskelion to your deck, putting it at 61 cards, may seem small, but it's actually increasing your threats by 25%.

Now when we look at what Malhavoc said, you would be decreasing your chances of drawing a "broken card", but I believe increasing your threats by a relative large amount by adding one card, is completely worth dropping the likelyhood of drawing a "broken card" from 1/60 to 1/61. Again, this is especially true in Slaver where you have a ton of draw and search.


I must also admit, that I had Slaver in mind when I first began thinking about this, so most likely this will only apply to a very small number of decks.

I know, before you even read anything, you're thinking, "Not 60 cards? BLASPHEMY!” I’m not advocating 100 card decks or anything, I just wanted to share my thoughts on how 60 cards is not always optimal for a deck.


To get right into it, I think that seeing 60 cards as always optimal has been set to the default and not explored as much as we should. I think the reason is because for a very long time now we’ve used the logic “in a 60 card deck, we are most likely to draw the most important cards.” I don’t think this is the right mindset. Instead of thinking there is an optimal decklist that confines to 60 cards, I believe instead there is an optimal “ratio” for a deck. To explain this, I first must explain what I think every deck is composed of. I think we can all agree every card in a deck can be put into 3 categories: Mana, Utility, or Threat. And different decks have different logics behind them. A very low threat and high utility (Tog) or maybe a very low utility and high threat (FCG). What I’m suggesting is that in building towards the optimal decklist, there exists a perfect ratio of these three card types to fit the decks basic gameplan. By doing this, we find the chances of getting better hands and seeing better cards down the road.

Now, I’m not suggesting going up a huge amount in cards, but most importantly in decks with a low amount of one of the three card types, going up one or two cards over 60 may be the best option. Adding another land to combo or adding a triskelion in addition to your other threat creature base in Slaver may see better results. This may not be profound, but I just hate seeing that people feel the need to cut cards in order to get to 60, when having 61 may be better. Even when it’s one more card in a deck, with all the draw and search in the format, having it in the deck may make a difference.

I hope that this spurs some discussion and is a little food for thought for those looking for that last card to cut.

I just feel like they are too versatile to cut right now. I really don't feel like I'd want a 4th brainstorm becayse brainstorm isn't extremely useful without a fetch. I like being able to deal with problematic creatures asap. Grim Lavamancer, a Curiositied-creature, opposing welders, Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Lackey, and everything else. At worst it stalls and cycles. Like I said before though, I'm not experienced with the deck. Right now, I'd consider more fat over another mindslaver. I've been thinking of Sundering Titan and Memnarch, but those are ideas to be tested. If your configuration is working for you, go with it.

This is my first tourney report, so here goes nothing...

Maybe a quick introduction will do. First of all, I'm just returning to magic. This will be my first time playing with control slaver not on apprentice. I'm not really going on experience, more on the sheer power of the deck. I've got Zherbus to thank for bringing me back to T1 and for posting this tourney.

Control Slaver:
4x Goblin Welder
4x Mana Drain
4x Thirst for Knowledge
4x Force of Will
3x Brainstorm
2x Fire/Ice
2x Cunning Wish
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Platinum Angel
1x Pentavus
2x Mindslaver
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Tinker
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Memory Jar
7x SoloMoxen
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
4x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
6x Island
1x Library of Alexandria

SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Flametongue Kavu
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Rack and Ruin
2x Blood Moon
1x Echoing Truth
1x Shattering Pulse


Round 1 - Goblins
Game 1
He overwhelms me. He sees many threats as I attempt to churn through my deck. I don't find an answer, so he wins.

Game 2
Again, he starts throwing out threats while I churn through my deck. I eventually get a Platinum Angel out and stablize at 1 life. I get a slaver and start taking his turns. I clear his board and finish him off.

Game 3
I believe I get a turn 2 Platinum Angel off tinker. My hand was filled with some other good stuff, so I just win.

Round 2 - Germbus
Game 1
We go back and forth counter and removing each others threats. He cycles for 4 soldier tokens, but after attacking once with them, I eot Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth to get rid of them all. He has a lone gorilla shaman when I tap out to play Pentavus and Welder. He topdecks Will to fire the Welder and Disenchant the Pentavus. Exalted finished me off.

Game 2
I keep a rather nice hand... which gets owned by wasteland. I'm stuck on an island and an off-color moxen. I concede when he Scry's for 3 with him having a wasteland on the board and plenty of mana. My hand had 3 Welders, a REB, and some other nice stuff.

Quick side note: This was my first time meeting Zherbus and he was a great guy. Friendly and cool through the whole match. I hope to play him more there.

Round 3 - U/B Terrible
Game 1
He's able to get a third turn Arcanis off a lotus. I didn't have a counter, but he attacks with him next turn(???). I get a Platinum Angel in play, and he figures if you can't attack with the beatstick that is Arcanis, might as well draw 3 cards. Next turn, I let him Malice my Angel with a Welder in play. He falls for the bait and attacks with Arcanis. I weld Angel back and block.

Game 2
I have control the whole game. I mean, I had control the last game, but I just win a lot faster.

Another side note: In his deck, he used Visara, Arcanis, Avatar of Woe, Salt Marsh, and Spite/Malice. My friend I was with commented on how his 12-Land Stompy deck could have beaten him. And just when you think 12-Land Stompy is dead!

After this round, my friend and I decide to get some food from Dunkin Donuts down the street. We heard it was about a mile, and without a car, we haul ass down the road. We found this shady pizza place/bar on the way. We each order subs to go and head back. I get back to find I was less than 1 minute away from a game loss. I was pleased.

Round 4 - Dragon
Game 1
He eventually gets Bazaar/Triple Squee going. I have mana to Force and Blue Elemental Blast. He duresses me, which gets forced. then animates the dragon. I BEB it with it's CIP ability on the stack, but he Misdirects it to my Welder. If I didn't have a welder in play, I would have won next turn.

Game 2
I slaver him with an Platinum Angel in play. He has 5 mana sources out and draws a land with a dragon in hand. I play his dragon, thinking with angel out and him minus 6 lands, I should be good. I slaver him later in oredr to attack with his Dragon so I may attack with my Angel. I get him down to 4. I make a huge mistake. I weld out my dragon to slaver him. For some reason, I think I'll still have another artifact to weld. So I'm stuck with 1 turn left and no artifacts. My hand is full of stuff, but a Blood Moon I played is hindering me. I topdeck an Echoing Truth, bounce my Moon, play Will, then go broken and win. My deck loves me.

Game 3
The first two games took a while, and with me being 9 minutes late, time is called early on. He plays a Squee under blood moon to pick away at my life. I get a Pentavus out, but he blocks so when the turns are up, he's ahead in like (I belive 19 to 17). He said that's his win, and me being tourney inexperienced, just assume he's right. I ask the TO, and he says the game is a draw, so since we were 1-1 at that point, the match is a draw.

Round 5 - RectorTrix
Game 1
He does the whole combo thing.

Game 2
His hand is nuts. He gets a third turn kill.

Overall, I'm glad I went and had a good time. My opponents were all nice people and it was fun just to play magic again.

Props:
-Myriad Games for having a great tourney. The owner (unfortunately I didn't get his name), was a very nice guy and had good prices for a store.
-My deck for loving me, even though I rush and make terrible play mistakes.
-Chicken Finger pizza for being so delicious.
-Echoing Turth for bouncing every soldier token.
-Zherbus for having this great site and for being a great guy.

Slops:
-Rack and Ruin for never being used.
-Me having to rip myself off to finish my deck and my friend's deck, even though he didn't play his.
-Having to walk a mile to get a sub.
-Having to get up early for the first two days being home from school.


Some comments about the deck:

I don't understand why people would take Platinum Angel out of the deck. People add Flametongue to help against aggro, but the Angel is the best plan. If you can get her into play and protect her, then you're golden. I'm considering a lightning greaves in the sideboard for aggro-heavy metagames. I really enjoy the deck and I hope to have some good performances at future tournies.

First, I'd like to state that The Mana Drain is the sole reason for me returning to magic recently. I love the site and think it is extremely well run. However, I hate the fact that I'm limited to where I can post. I know that you can't allow everyone to start topics as the amount of shit allowed into every forum would increase. I was wondering if it is possible to allow people to reply anywhere. I see this as a much better way for people to get introduced. Why start a threat on Hulk, for example, in the Open Forum? There are plenty of topics in the closed forums and you're a lot less likely to get decent responses too.

This has been a problem in the past, and today it annoyed me again. I saw Zherbus's Tourney announcement in the Tourney Forum. Now it seems that the tourney might be cancelled. I know I can PM him, but I would of liked to post saying not only had I planned on going, but I would most likely attend every tourney after that as well. I'm from the Boston area and that is a convinient drive for me. Things like this seem to come up a lot for me.

Now that my ranting is done, is there anyway we could impliment this?

This is exactly the creature base I ran at waterbury. I also came to the same conclusion about Voidmage. Voidmage is a terrible curiosity target, and curiosity is key to this deck. I'm thinking of testing flying men or razorfin hunters, but I don't want even more 2 drops. The flying men are a great curiosity target and is another 1 drop so they will most likely go in first.

I'm curently testing to see if I can at least stand a chance with no power but 5 proxies. This is what I'm using:

6x Island
4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Grim Monolith
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Cunning Wish
1x Tinker
2x Mindslaver
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Thirst For Knowledge
2x Fire/Ice
4x Goblin Welder
1x Pentavus
1x Platinum Angel
2x Gorilla Shaman

SB:
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Blood Moon
1x Shattering Pulse
1x Hibernation
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Fire/Ice
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Gorilla Shaman


So far it has been working out well. I'm thinking I should put the FoF in the sideboard and maindeck Memory Jar. FoF is expensive without much accel, and the Jar can be welded/tinkered for. I'm gonna be testing the deck like that now.

1) How much would a duress cost with a Trinisphere and a Sphere of Resistance out in play?

2) How much would a demonic tutor cost with a Trinisphere and a Sphere of Resistance out in play?

3) If I play a wild mongrel, paying 3 mana, and a trinisphere and a chalice of the void for 3 is out, it's not coutnered, correct?

4) A gorilla shaman will always destroy a Chalice of the Void, no matter what they paid, for 1 mana correct? X's in a cards cost are considering 0 when determining CC correct?

Thanks all.

What I meant was that after I jar, I really can't be as explosive as a fully powered deck. Dropping as many cheap artifacts, welding those, or time walking. But maybe with the lack of accel, the added draw is necessary. I'll have to test it.

Well, I'm only missing 2 moxen, the 3 i can use coupled with 4 mana drains should give me enough acceleration. I don't think the jar is optimal without all the power and it isn't necessary for the deck. The library will be missed, especially against control, but then again this has a pretty good game against control in the first place. I'll have to see what I can get before the tourney.

I'm hopefully going to be playing this at Waterbury and I was wondering what everyone would do if you had no power? I figure I'll proxy the Recall, Lotus, and the 3 on color moxen. To make up for the other cards I'm missing, I was thinking:

-1 Library of Alexandria
-2 Off Color Moxen
-1 Time Walk
-1 Memory Jar

+1 Underground Sea
+1 Memnarch
+1 Brainstorm
+2 Gorilla Shaman

Anything that would be better suited for replacements?

Memory Jar hasn't been working for you? I find that it's insane whenever I draw it because I usually have the mana to hardcast it. I also like that I can use the brainstorms to put artifacts either into play or into my graveyard (after i discard) and then put cards I'll want to draw on top of my library. As you can see, my main deck already includes fact or fiction. Cutting jar for the 4th brainstorm is a consideration, but as of right now it's definately been pulling its weight.

I think both Shaman and welders are threats that need to be addresses as soon as they arrise. Sometimes you don't have a wish in hand and other times you want to wish for other things. I just feel the added insurance is good, but that may change with more testing.

I also agree that a lot of people play this deck different ways, and can usually be successful either way. More aggressive decks do handle aggro better, and that's the main reason I like having another threat in the maindeck.

I definately agree that the fire/ice's should be cut before the wishes. I'm considering cutting the fire/ice's for the 1 Memnarch and 1 Gorilla Shaman. I'm currently testing this build. I feel I'm leaving the fire/ice's in the main because of the threat of opposing welders and shaman, but 1 Memnarch and 1 Shaman combat both those well and are also great against many other cards. I hope more testing will give me an answer.

I suppose before talking about the sideboard, I should list what I'm currently using in my main deck:

6x Island
4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Library of Alexandria
7x Solo Moxen
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Cunning Wish
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Thirst For Knowledge
3x Brainstorm
1x Tinker
2x Mindslaver
1x Pentavus
1x Platinum Angel
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
1x Memory Jar
1x Fact or Fiction
2x Fire/Ice
4x Goblin Welder

My current sideboard:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Blood Moon
1x Shattering Pulse
1x Hibernation
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Fire/Ice
2x Rack and Ruin
2x Tormod's Crypt


First I will adress my differences from both The Atog Lord's and ELD's lists, as they have both been doing very well with their builds.

My list vs. The Atog Lord
- 1x Fire/Ice
+ 1x Fact or Fiction

The reason I believe Fact or Fiction should be maindecked is because it is simply insane in this deck. I know leaving no draw in the sideboard can sometimes make Cunning Wish feel lacking, but I like having Cunning Wish as an answer to anything my opponent plays. Leaving Fact or Fiction in the board means that times when you really have to wish for an answer leaves you without the possibility of drawing FoF out of your deck, something I don't like the idea of. Fire/Ice, even though it is extremely versatile, does not have nearly as big an impact on the game as FoF does. Like ELD says, the decks fire/ice is good against, you'd probably be better off trying to combo them out.

My list vs. ELD
- 1x Gorilla Shaman
- 1x Brainstorm
- 1x Underground Sea
+ 2x Fire/Ice
+ 1x Island

The reason I leave 2 fire/ice's maindeck is because of the times when it can really shine. I tried the deck with 3, and I felt there were too many times I just wanted to cycle it. With 2 in the deck, I feel I can dig for one if necessary but am not wasting a slot better suited for something else.
The island is just there because I feel getting out a basic island is key when facing non-basic hate. I tried it with 3 undergrounds and it worked fine too, I just like the extra security.


Now for why I brought you here. I'm considering taking out the 2 Cunning Wish main deck. The main deck would look something like this:

- 2x Cunning Wish
+ 1x Memnarch
+ 1x Gorilla Shaman

I love the idea of having another big body in the deck, especially with such game-changing abilities. The shaman is pretty obvious. I didn't have room for him before, but I feel he worked well with this build.


The sideboard would then change to:
3x FTK
3x Rack and Ruin
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x REB
2x Blood Moon
1x Fire/Ice
1x Gorilla Shaman

I feel that this sideboard can deal with anything that a toolbox sideboard would solve if using cunning wish. Again this is taking into consideration both The Atog Lord's and ELD's decks into consideration.

I haven't been able to test this version much yet, so I was wondering who here has tried a 0 Wish Control Slaver. I know thecapn posted a decklsit in the Type 1 Control Slaver page. I'm hoping he can tell us how the 3rd Mindslaver and the 2 Gorilla Shaman worked out.

I know a lot of how the deck should be built is dependant on your metagame, so we'll assume it's a rather strong metagame. Think Hadley, Columbus, or Waterbury tournies.


Basically, for those who've tried 0 Wishes:

Did you miss the toolbox sideboard?
What did you replace the wishes with in the main deck?
What did your sideboard look like?


This is my first in-depth post, so try not to tear too much into me. All input is appreciated.

I have a feeling this isn't goign anywhere...

I wish I had made a name for myself on these boards, or at least become a full member, before jumping back into T1.

I know it's a lot to ask, but I can offer compensation! Money or cards if you want. *sigh*

First off, Mods, I'm not sure if this belongs here, however, in both the Waterbury tournie thread and the community forum, I can't post. I'm hoping it's either acceptable or you'll point me in the right direction.

So anyway...

I'm looking for a ride to Waterbury from the NYC area. I'm originally from Boston, so my knowledge of the area is limited. I'm currently at Pace University in Briarcliff Manor, Westchester. If any kind soul wouldn't mind swinging by and picking me up, I'd be more than willing to give up gas money. I know I haven't really made a name for myself on these boards, and I'm probably pushing it, but I'm just returning to magic, so right now I'd kill just to go and scrub out at a draft.

If anyone's interested, AIM me and hopefully we can work something out. Thanks.

I really don't think the wishes are worth a slot in this deck. This deck thrives on consistency and hate. By taking out the root mazes, you weaken a lot of matches. Also, the wishes slow you down too much for it to be worth while. Using both Bazaar and Survival means your mana will be tight as it is.

Also, I'd run two viridian shaman main instead of two troll ascetic. This also removes the need for the lyrist and shaman in the sideboard, and allows you to put in ground seal again, which is golden in so many matches.

Ugh, my first post here and I look like an idiot... Well anyway, if a mod catches this they can delete this. Sorry for the mistake.

This topic is also posted in the Type 1 boards, but seeing as how that is limited access, I wanted to bring the discussion here. I read the FAQ's and I believe that isn't against the rules. Please lmk if it is. Anyways...

[Personal information related to topic]
Proxies in T1 is a huge deal to me. I quit magic a while ago, seeing as how there was a non-existent playgroup close to me, I didn't have access to a car, and it was just too expensive. The only format I really enjoyed was IBC, partly due to the fact T1 was out of my reach. Since the last summer, I haven't played a single game of real magic. I was still interested in the new sets and the ever-changing decks of the formats. While browsing here, I came across the new proxy policy which has become popular around the Northeast (where I am now and also come from{because i'm now at college}). This has sparked a great interest in me. Building a collection of some staples and some cheaper cards, but having the ability to drive down to a good sized T1 tourney with a good chance without having to spend the thousands of dollars on the power cards is amazing.
[Personal information related to topic]



So what are your thoughts on the topic at hand? Should proxies be allowed in most T1 tourneys? If so, what should the limit be?

I'd also like to here some TO's who have either begun this policy or vow to never start. Also mention where you are and what your T1 scene is like.

(Another side note: I'm currently going to school at Pace University, which is outside of NYC, and I'm originally from the Boston area. Have people specifically in this area had a good amount of proxy tourneys? If so, I think I may have to start buying some cards. )

*phew*

I think that's it...