[Deck Discussion] Control Slaver

[MadRhetoric]

I suppose before talking about the sideboard, I should list what I'm currently using in my main deck:

6x Island
4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Library of Alexandria
7x Solo Moxen
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Cunning Wish
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Thirst For Knowledge
3x Brainstorm
1x Tinker
2x Mindslaver
1x Pentavus
1x Platinum Angel
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
1x Memory Jar
1x Fact or Fiction
2x Fire/Ice
4x Goblin Welder

My current sideboard:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Blood Moon
1x Shattering Pulse
1x Hibernation
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Fire/Ice
2x Rack and Ruin
2x Tormod's Crypt


First I will adress my differences from both The Atog Lord's and ELD's lists, as they have both been doing very well with their builds.

My list vs. The Atog Lord
- 1x Fire/Ice
+ 1x Fact or Fiction

The reason I believe Fact or Fiction should be maindecked is because it is simply insane in this deck. I know leaving no draw in the sideboard can sometimes make Cunning Wish feel lacking, but I like having Cunning Wish as an answer to anything my opponent plays. Leaving Fact or Fiction in the board means that times when you really have to wish for an answer leaves you without the possibility of drawing FoF out of your deck, something I don't like the idea of. Fire/Ice, even though it is extremely versatile, does not have nearly as big an impact on the game as FoF does. Like ELD says, the decks fire/ice is good against, you'd probably be better off trying to combo them out.

My list vs. ELD
- 1x Gorilla Shaman
- 1x Brainstorm
- 1x Underground Sea
+ 2x Fire/Ice
+ 1x Island

The reason I leave 2 fire/ice's maindeck is because of the times when it can really shine. I tried the deck with 3, and I felt there were too many times I just wanted to cycle it. With 2 in the deck, I feel I can dig for one if necessary but am not wasting a slot better suited for something else.
The island is just there because I feel getting out a basic island is key when facing non-basic hate. I tried it with 3 undergrounds and it worked fine too, I just like the extra security.


Now for why I brought you here. I'm considering taking out the 2 Cunning Wish main deck. The main deck would look something like this:

- 2x Cunning Wish
+ 1x Memnarch
+ 1x Gorilla Shaman

I love the idea of having another big body in the deck, especially with such game-changing abilities. The shaman is pretty obvious. I didn't have room for him before, but I feel he worked well with this build.


The sideboard would then change to:
3x FTK
3x Rack and Ruin
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x REB
2x Blood Moon
1x Fire/Ice
1x Gorilla Shaman

I feel that this sideboard can deal with anything that a toolbox sideboard would solve if using cunning wish. Again this is taking into consideration both The Atog Lord's and ELD's decks into consideration.

I haven't been able to test this version much yet, so I was wondering who here has tried a 0 Wish Control Slaver. I know thecapn posted a decklsit in the Type 1 Control Slaver page. I'm hoping he can tell us how the 3rd Mindslaver and the 2 Gorilla Shaman worked out.

I know a lot of how the deck should be built is dependant on your metagame, so we'll assume it's a rather strong metagame. Think Hadley, Columbus, or Waterbury tournies.


Basically, for those who've tried 0 Wishes:

Did you miss the toolbox sideboard?
What did you replace the wishes with in the main deck?
What did your sideboard look like?


This is my first in-depth post, so try not to tear too much into me. All input is appreciated.

[thecapn]

The reason I leave 2 fire/ice's maindeck is because of the times when it can really shine. I tried the deck with 3, and I felt there were too many times I just wanted to cycle it. With 2 in the deck, I feel I can dig for one if necessary but am not wasting a slot better suited for something else.

Cunning Wish is substantially more versatile than Fire/Ice, and I see no reason to cut Wish before Fire/Ice.  After all, you can Wish for Fire/Ice itself or for Firestorm, which I think is a good Wish target.  Wish obviously also solves other problems, like Damping Matrix and Ground Seal, as TheAtogLord noted when arguing for it in the main Type 1 forum.  I will say that sometimes I feel like I'm wasting too much time/mana with Wish and cut it in favor of a more solid (straightforward?) build, but I don't think Fire/Ice is a suitable replacement in the metagames you alluded to.

In regards to your other questions - I think the third Slaver is just awesome.  You pretty much always see Slaver, and it increases the number of artifacts in the deck which is great for Thrist for Knowledge, and worse case scenario is thrown back to Brainstorm + Fetch because you've already got one in the grave or you know you can find it a few turns later.  I don't see why you would only run 2 if it is one of the primary gameplans of your deck.  I liked the 2 Gorilla Shamans in Columbus because I expected about 20% of the field to be playing playing Workshop Slaver (it was actually a bit more) and 2 main deck Gorillas and 4 post SB puts that matchup in your favor.

I would also really encourage you to try to fit Brainstorm #4.  If you don't want to run Cunning Wish then I'd suggest also cutting Fire/Ice for the 4th Brainstorm and Mindslaver #3.  Sometimes activating Mindslaver allows you do deal with the same things that Fire/Ice does, and in some aggro matchups going infinite is a primary plan.  Slaver activations also buy time for Angel if you like that route.  Memnarch seems to be a fine 2nd replacement for the Wishes but I haven't tested it.

[The Atog Lord]

I agree with thecapn that adding a fourth Brainstorm should be a priority. I would certainly prefer the fourth Brainstorm to a Fact or Fiction in the maindeck. Or, cutting one Fire/Ice in order to add that Brainstorm might be worth trying.

As for the Wishes. There may be times when they can be safely cut. thecapn has certainly done well without using them. However, as his above post indicates, thecapn played in a rather predictable and narrow metagame. This allowed him to maindeck rather narrow cards -- the pair of Shamen. In a general metagame, or in a larger tournament, I would certainly want the versatility of the Wishes.

[MadRhetoric]

I definately agree that the fire/ice's should be cut before the wishes. I'm considering cutting the fire/ice's for the 1 Memnarch and 1 Gorilla Shaman. I'm currently testing this build. I feel I'm leaving the fire/ice's in the main because of the threat of opposing welders and shaman, but 1 Memnarch and 1 Shaman combat both those well and are also great against many other cards. I hope more testing will give me an answer.

[rvs]

@MadRhetoric: Check out http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16560. It includes a build I'm tested a lot and have beind doing very well with.

Although I play in a mostly control-oriented metagame, where Shaman is really strong, I think it's an automatic maindeck inclusion regardless. It's just so strong in dealing with hate and in mirror matches, I can't imagine myself playing without him anymore.

On the 3rd Slaver: You really don't need to resolve Slaver to win games. You can so easily win games without it by just keeping control of the board. I think half the games I won I didn't really need Slaver, and drawing 2 is really bad. Let's not forget you also have a DT and Tinker if you REALLY need to get a Slaver going.

[thecapn]

It might also be worth noting that I do run Cunning Wish at local weekly tournaments because there are a lot of different threats that pop up and the pace is a bit slower.  

@Mad Rhetoric: what is your reasoning for running Fire/Ice main as solutions to Shaman and Welder instead of Wishing for it?

@MoreFling: Looking at your build, your disagreement with the 3rd Slaver is probably because you play the deck a lot more control oriented.  I play the deck very aggressively and this fits my gameplan better.

[MadRhetoric]

@Mad Rhetoric: what is your reasoning for running Fire/Ice main as solutions to Shaman and Welder instead of Wishing for it?

I think both Shaman and welders are threats that need to be addresses as soon as they arrise. Sometimes you don't have a wish in hand and other times you want to wish for other things. I just feel the added insurance is good, but that may change with more testing.

I also agree that a lot of people play this deck different ways, and can usually be successful either way. More aggressive decks do handle aggro better, and that's the main reason I like having another threat in the maindeck.

[Miaou]

[offtopic]Call me crazy, but I've found that Memory Jar is not pulling its weight in the deck.
In the last tournament I attended with Control Slaver, I think it was the card I SBed out the most. In virtualy every matchup I wan't to make room and well this seemed like the less useful card. I never Tinker for it as there are more powerful targets, and I usualy don't weld it in as there are likewise more powerfull artifacts in the graveyard.
So what I'm suggesting is cutting it for a Fact or Fiction, something I believe should be MD. The only problem about this, is that I'm cutting down on artifacts. So to compensate, just add Memnarch!
[/offtopic]

Jean

[MadRhetoric]

[offtopic]Call me crazy, but I've found that Memory Jar is not pulling its weight in the deck.
In the last tournament I attended with Control Slaver, I think it was the card I SBed out the most. In virtualy every matchup I wan't to make room and well this seemed like the less useful card. I never Tinker for it as there are more powerful targets, and I usualy don't weld it in as there are likewise more powerfull artifacts in the graveyard.
So what I'm suggesting is cutting it for a Fact or Fiction, something I believe should be MD. The only problem about this, is that I'm cutting down on artifacts. So to compensate, just add Memnarch!
[/offtopic]

Jean

Memory Jar hasn't been working for you? I find that it's insane whenever I draw it because I usually have the mana to hardcast it. I also like that I can use the brainstorms to put artifacts either into play or into my graveyard (after i discard) and then put cards I'll want to draw on top of my library. As you can see, my main deck already includes fact or fiction. Cutting jar for the 4th brainstorm is a consideration, but as of right now it's definately been pulling its weight.

[jazzykat]

I really like the idea of Memnarch in drain slaver. If you plan to side out your welders in the mirror (for more: f/i and R&R) and also side out your jar. You still need ways to kill your opponent. Having 2-3 big dudes are a must (depending on wether you board out platinum). Also smemnarch is just plain funny and rude (I need a little levity in my decks and he provides it). Taking turns= fun. Taking stuff= fun+1.

[MadRhetoric]

I'm hopefully going to be playing this at Waterbury and I was wondering what everyone would do if you had no power? I figure I'll proxy the Recall, Lotus, and the 3 on color moxen. To make up for the other cards I'm missing, I was thinking:

-1 Library of Alexandria
-2 Off Color Moxen
-1 Time Walk
-1 Memory Jar

+1 Underground Sea
+1 Memnarch
+1 Brainstorm
+2 Gorilla Shaman

Anything that would be better suited for replacements?

[wuaffiliate]

if you had no power? dont play slaver . or just borrow from a friend.

its a huge mistake to remove moxen, library, and jar. you need the acceleration your deck runs on a high mana curve. library is extremely good because you should always be drawing alot of cards. jar draws card, over and over and over and over again.

if anything can be removed its fire/ice and cunning wish slots.

[MadRhetoric]

if you had no power? dont play slaver . or just borrow from a friend.

its a huge mistake to remove moxen, library, and jar. you need the acceleration your deck runs on a high mana curve. library is extremely good because you should always be drawing alot of cards. jar draws card, over and over and over and over again.

if anything can be removed its fire/ice and cunning wish slots.

Well, I'm only missing 2 moxen, the 3 i can use coupled with 4 mana drains should give me enough acceleration. I don't think the jar is optimal without all the power and it isn't necessary for the deck. The library will be missed, especially against control, but then again this has a pretty good game against control in the first place. I'll have to see what I can get before the tourney.

[Rico Suave]

Well, I'm only missing 2 moxen, the 3 i can use coupled with 4 mana drains should give me enough acceleration. I don't think the jar is optimal without all the power and it isn't necessary for the deck.

These sentences seem a bit contradictory.  Even with the missing power you "should have enough acceleration," but Memory Jar can't find a maindeck slot because you don't have enough acceleration?

Jar is a total bomb, play it.

[wicked chicken]

dude you really need a full compliment of moxen for this deck to flow properly, you play so few low cost artifacts anyway and you need the low (0) cost stuff to weld properly.Remember this is not a budget deck.

[jazzykat]

I almost want grim monolith in this deck to accelerate me a little more. This deck especially with smenmarch is a mana hog.

[MadRhetoric]

Well, I'm only missing 2 moxen, the 3 i can use coupled with 4 mana drains should give me enough acceleration. I don't think the jar is optimal without all the power and it isn't necessary for the deck.

These sentences seem a bit contradictory.  Even with the missing power you "should have enough acceleration," but Memory Jar can't find a maindeck slot because you don't have enough acceleration?

Jar is a total bomb, play it.

What I meant was that after I jar, I really can't be as explosive as a fully powered deck. Dropping as many cheap artifacts, welding those, or time walking. But maybe with the lack of accel, the added draw is necessary. I'll have to test it.

[thecapn]

Jar is amazing.  Period.  I don't understand why anyone would consider cutting it from the deck.  The raw drawing power and general one-sidedness of Jar makes it one of your best tinker targets.  You always use like 3 or 4 cards from it, and can often Brainstorm back the best cards to set up your next turn.  It almost always gives you the artifact you invested to weld it back and generally shifts the game into your favor.  Unless you really need a specific answer, the top 7 cards of your library will probably do a lot more than anything else.  Think of it like a weldable Fact or Fiction where you get to split the piles.  Not having two Moxes or a Time Walk (which I side out almost every game) does not negate this argument.

@JazzyKat: I tested Grim Monolith in my Columbus build but cut it for the 2nd Mox Monkey.  I'm confident the deck plays the right amount of mana sources and Grim Monolith just isn't better than any of the current mana producers nor is it worth cutting a non-mana card for.  I know The Atog Lord also tested it in one of his earlier builds and felt it wasn't quite good enough.  However, if you simply don't have one of the mana artifacts, like MadRhetoric, then Grim Monolith definitely makes the cut.

[MadRhetoric]

I'm curently testing to see if I can at least stand a chance with no power but 5 proxies. This is what I'm using:

6x Island
4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Grim Monolith
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Cunning Wish
1x Tinker
2x Mindslaver
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Thirst For Knowledge
2x Fire/Ice
4x Goblin Welder
1x Pentavus
1x Platinum Angel
2x Gorilla Shaman

SB:
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Blood Moon
1x Shattering Pulse
1x Hibernation
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Fire/Ice
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Gorilla Shaman


So far it has been working out well. I'm thinking I should put the FoF in the sideboard and maindeck Memory Jar. FoF is expensive without much accel, and the Jar can be welded/tinkered for. I'm gonna be testing the deck like that now.

[jazzykat]

@JazzyKat: I tested Grim Monolith in my Columbus build but cut it for the 2nd Mox Monkey.  I'm confident the deck plays the right amount of mana sources and Grim Monolith just isn't better than any of the current mana producers nor is it worth cutting a non-mana card for.  I know The Atog Lord also tested it in one of his earlier builds and felt it wasn't quite good enough.  However, if you simply don't have one of the mana artifacts, like MadRhetoric, then Grim Monolith definitely makes the cut.

Thanks for the heads up! I didn't get around to testing monolith yet(I have all the acceleration called for). Were you the one who cut fire and ices? How did that work out. I went down to 2 but I can't make myself go any lower for the mirror. Mox monkey wrecks shop in the mirror and I may find room for another.