Actually thats the form of "vintage" that my friends and i play... budget unrestricted... the closest that ive really seen to this is the new 1.5 format which has actually been helping my deck building but that format does have alot of cheap nice cards banned so i am very curious as to if anyone has any fun powerful budget decks (as in less then 30 bucks for a card.. so really duals are the most expensive thing).

Wesley

After reading this thread I felt compelled to bring up an anology that has some lose ties to type one (not claiming a 1 to 1 corespondance).

Open source software. If you look into the development and innovation in the open source scene you will see that in many (almost all) cases you can get software which is comparative to the copyrighted (and thus generally expensive), for free through open source.

This apparently goes in the face of the idea of incentives if looked at as narrowly as it has been by most up till this point, because obviously they are getting no money for putting in all those hours into an open source project. However, there are also non-tangible incentives to take into account, like reputation, and what could be refered to as "scene points". In many cases those incentives do as good of a job at motivating someone as does money (because of course, money isnt everything).

Finally it should be noted that the game is played for different reasons some people enjoy the theory and deck building side, others the actually playing and interaction side, and then there are others who simply enjoy wining. I personally, enjoy the theory and deckbuilding side the most, I could careless about even playing the deck more then a couple times past the point of testing, much less actually wining anything with it (except when wining is used as a gague of the deck's success and thus the skill of the deckbuilder). What does this have to do with the topic? Well generally I would be inclined to think that many of the theorists would have no problem with an opensource T1 scene, nor would the more casual people who enjoy playing a deck regardless of winning. It would appear that mainly the people who take issue with an open source scene would be the ones who play for the competition (and in the end to win). I feel however, that opensouce decklists are perfectly compatable with the desire to win, because nothing really changes from how it is now, everyone will just be playing better decks (because of more thorough development *ideally of course*).

To end this long drawn out post (which has certainly strayed from the original point), I would like to point out that as seen in the success of the open source software scene, the elimination of the idea of "intellectual property" and "copyrights", does indeed work, and that only refering to the microsoft model of software creation does limit ones ways of thinking. Applied to T1, to believe that decklists are intellectual property and thus they can be withheld, can work (as does microsoft), but also, so can sharing everything with everyone. So what would determin which is better since they can both work quite well? Well pragmatically, it would be better to be sharing with the collective as in theory, this would lead to a faster evolution of decks, and everyone would then be playing with a higher level of decks compared to the "intellectual ideas" scenario.

I appologize if it is hard to follow this post, I do indeed explain things much better verbally then I do on paper,

Wesley

I play lots of casual so maybe that is why this is something that i have seen before, but with all the comments that are being made, what is wrong with using [card]Serra Avatar[/card] as a sneakable creature? In many cases she will be quite large, and she is resuable as she never really stays in your grave yeard. This card combos well with exhalted angel (life gain), and some of your other cards. I dont know if you had already considered it, and then ruled it out, but i thought i'd mention it seein that no one else has.

Wes

Actually, you were right on, I (still) cant justify spending $80 for a playset of ravagers, that are pretty much useless except in this deck.. when I am still buying dual lands, and other staples that can be used in many decks..

But, i finally broke down and proxied up the ravagers, and tested and they are indeed (as everyone has been telling me), insanely awesome... so i decided to shift the focus of the deck from being slightly odd, but unique to a degree.. to a cheap rip off what everyone else is doing...

With such large changes to the decklist (which i will discuss later).. Im going to post it in this reply, and leave the past version up there so that you (i say you, because it appears only Misemaster reads this thread), can see the changes.

Without further adieu...

My bad version of the type 1 forum RA deck:

4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Mana Vault
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Atog
1 Platinum Angel

3 Skullclamp
3 Thoughtcast
1 Time Spiral
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Ok... So basically this is similar to the versions being posted, and a few card changes... Being that Ravager is such a house, i noticed that my tinker setup wasnt really needed, and was almost slowing it down (that and its far from type 1 legal)... so i (all at once) tried to make it MORE type 1 legal, and more streamlined to a single purpose.

My problem in my play style (which i realize MUST be fixed.. but as of right now im dealing with it), is that i rarely want to cast disruptive spells, because i see plenty of other cards that are more offensive, that i could cast instead. With that in mind, that is why you see Very little disruption in this deck... The only card that can really be considered as such, is mind twist, and even then thats only 1 card... Yet with the mana i have, i can normally cause a dumping of the hand, which against most decks is kind of hurtful.

Basically to powerize this version (and make it legal) you would just take out 3 petals, and 3 vaults.. and put in 5 moxes, and 1 lotus... take out the 2 atogs, and put 1 timewalk, and 1 ancestral in....

In anycase, the Angel is still in there, because i find i can hard cast it often, and in a few situations, it is a better tinker target then memory jar (or so i think). Yes it gets destroyed early, but, better that then my ravager (or any other artifact that is essential).

Again, (as this deck has heavily evolved since i first posted the list), comments, questions, and suggestions are welcome..

Wes

Misemaster, yes i did consider that, and you are correct in that that would be strictly superior, but strangly enough I am currently finding the mana base to be quite stable, as I generally have the color I need to cast any card I have in my hand within 1 turn of wanting to play it (which seems to be soon enough).

The main change that I made this time around to the deck list; which I was curious, in regards to the general reaction of TMD, was the addition of time spiral.

I realize that in decks as fast as this one, that Time Spiral is often thought to be too slow, but i have also found myself in cases where my academies are already useless on turn 3, because they produce 12 mana, and there is no way I can spend that much as I have too few cards in hand. With this problem in mind, I tested using more expensive drawspells (Geyser, Spiral, Stroke), and found Time Spiral to be the most viable as in many cases I can cast it quite early.

Furthermore, when you actually play agaisnt decks that pack distruption (as opposed to goldfishing, or playing agaisnt decks that are essentially a goldfish) the games dont always end by turn 4, and it is in those cases that the draw 7's help me the most (and help in an unsymetrical fashion, as I can usually drop my whole hand, and they cant counter or kill it all)...

In anycase, any comments on this, or just observations in general are MUCH appreciated,

Wes

Hi I'm Wesley,

I started playing around Stronghold, and was really into magic during the urza's block. Then interest faded a bit, and i joined back up during oddessy and have been playing even since.

I go to UCSD, as a Physics major and a Philosophy major, and im slowly working my way into competative type 1. Currently with my budget we play a modified version of type 1 (which involves unrestricted cheap *money-wise* artifact mana, to make up for the lack of power).

I currently have a WW, Gro-Hulksmash, Atog-Affinity, Madness, Slide, Bargain, Necro, and a fun Elf deck.

very good observation Lockdown, and i was playing academy (which is why i have many of the pieces among other things), but the version i was playing (a TPS with 4 desires..) turned every game with my playgroup into a goldfish match (except against the 2 decks that have FOW, but i didnt play against those often).....

SO as a result, no one would ever play against it, so i switched it over to an artifact creature random hybrid-esque build...

"In the end I decided that degenerate decks were actually part of the fun. People would assemble them, play with them until they got bored or their regular opponents refused to play against them, and then retire the deck or trade off its components for something new" [Richard Garfield 1994]

As with what garfield said about magic "back in the day" that is the same way our play group plays.... In anycase...

What i noticed is that for some reason people appear to be less appreahensive when killed quickly by creatures; then when killed by a huge stormed tendril, or a large braingeyser (i made both builds).

Because of this psychological phenomenom, i was hoping to rather tune this deck a bit more if possible (or to switch the theme of the deck slightly), so any additional suggestions are VERY welcome

Wesley

Based on the suggestions given, and some more playtesting; I decided that the mana base is a little uneasy, and im contemplating replacing the Ancient Den's with Gemstone mines or City of brass's, but i am not sure whether or not thats the best call, as the 3 additional artifacts are nice for disciple, atog, and affinity.

The braingeyser is there as i will often times find myself with way too much mana, and a small hand; and most all the games where i could cast the geyser, i won shortly afterwords. Any comments on the current incarnation of the deck are much appreciated,

Wes

Edit: removed list, in order to keep the only updated decklist up top (thought it would be cleaner)

Now that it is in the right Forum   , does anyone have any comments on the deck?

Wes

So this would belong more in the casual then the Budget? I wasnt sure because i suppose it is both, as i did say in my initial post, we have our own playgroup rules, in order to make it fun without power... Which i suppose is one of the many definitions of casual... i realize this is not type 1, but i have yet to see it said if a post is say budget and casual... where it goes... so...

Would you recemend this be moved/reposted in casual, or, what?

Wes

I hope this is the correct Forum.

Well, This is my Hybrid Artifact deck...

Mana (21)
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Tolarian Academy

Creatures (20)
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Atog
4 Arcbound Worker

Tinker (8)
4 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Triskelion  
1 Platinum Angel
1 Bosh, Iron Golem

Draw (11)
4 Thoughtcast
3 Skullclamp
2 Time Spiral
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

The basic theme of this deck, is to abuse the rules that my play group has set forth. We are allowed (unless a deck gets out of control, then we decide to restrict stuff), to play 4 of almost any card, and being that NONE of us have power, the unrestricted cheap (money-wise) artifact acceleration is allowed to give our decks more of a type 1 feel.

This deck has a total of 11 artifact lands in order to allow for a high affinity count/academy value. My playgroup sees very little non-basic hate, as much of the metagame is mono-colored aggro, and really really old style decks modified to a budget (like Stasis, Black vise, and Erhnam-Geddon).

Being that we are powerless, if we are to accelerate our decks we play mainly with the cheap restricted accelerants (as said earlier), such as Petal, and Vault.

The Atogs are and ongoing experiment, as I already had much unused red mana (just used it as colorless), and extra artifacts that were not contributing to the kill... The Atogs have been game winners in most games, and when they weren’t, it was only because I already had such good board position by the time I got one in play. In reality the function very much like arcbound ravengers (very budget versions of the ravengers, as the ravengers arent useful outside this deck so i cant justify puting that kind of money into such a onesided card).

Affinity in general has been a very nice upgrade for this deck, and I find it to be very usable.

The tinker targets are an area that I am always fiddling with, as I rarely want to have one of them in my opening hand (so this makes me want to keep their numbers small), but I want to be able to use that 2nd or 3rd tinker that I might see in some sort of a long game (so this wants their numbers large). As such is the case, I am still attempting to find a nice balance for the number of targets, and have been trying to decide what cards are indeed the best targets. I am curious what others think on this topic.

One of the most important things to remember when commenting on this (if anyone does), is that I am on a tight budget, and I am open to all suggestions, but I can only USE those which take this into account. I realize some of my cards might be sub-optimal card choices, but they are the cards I had when I made this deck; but I am willing to work on acquiring any cards that appear to be overwhelmingly commonly suggested (and are fairly cheap).

Thanks to anyone who takes time to reply to such a random deck.

Wes

Edit: edited the deck list, with the latest updates 4/5/04

Edit: 4/12/04,
-3 Somber Hoverguard
-1 Voltaic Key

+2 Time Spiral
+1 Arcbound Worker
+1 Memory Jar