[Deck Discussion] Rectal Sneak Attack, a different look.

[Shadow Ninja]

Lately I've been taking a look at Sneak Attack decks and attempting to make them viable for real T1 play.  I believed that Sneak had the potential to play like aggro combo with an extra dose of kickass disruption, and that Sneak could take advantage of a metagame with artifact hate out of the wazoo by using an enchantment to wreak havoc, so I began looking up old decklists.  My search led me to the thread about Sneak decks in the budget forum, and I want to thank the people who posted there for posting solid lists and great ideas.  That thread is here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16107&start=0

For the lazy, the builds there happen to be RW decks bent on utility disruption and cute tricks.  I, however, with the help of a few friends who do not post here, determined that it would be wise to test a build with Black in it.

Our reasoning for adding black was elementary: black has always been the color for disruption, and it also provided a much needed accelerant in Dark Ritual, as well as the disruptive duo of Cabal Therapy (also useful for saccing Rector) and Duress.  Also, Tutors are never a bad thing, and having black also meant that Bargain and Necropotence could be hardcast if necessary.

Without further ado, this is the decklist we came up with:

Combo components:
4x [card]Sneak Attack[/card]
4x Academy Rector
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Necropotence
1x [card]Recurring Nightmare[/card]

Tutors/Draw:
4x [card]Fierce Empath[/card] (SAVAGE!!!!111!!11!)
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Fortune

Utility creatures:
1x Exalted Angel
1x [card]Dragon Tyrant[/card]
1x Duplicant
1x [card]Nicol Bolas[/card]
1x Sundering Titan
1x Crater Hellion

Disruption:
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

Mana:
1x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
2x Scrubland
4x Badlands
4x Plateau
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
5x Moxen
4x Dark Ritual

Rectal Sneak Attack (to think a friend wanted to call it Sneaky Rector with this gem of a name so obvious) became a toolbox deck employing some interesting choices.  Allow me to explain some of the choices:

Rector: This guy is obvious, as the deck needs Sneak fast and reliable, but I wanted to say that it's also fun to sneak him in and then grab the Recurring Nightmare or Bargain when he leaves.

Bargain: An alternate target for Rector, and also what may be the most powerful singular effect in the game.  This is here because of the horrible lack of any other sort of fast card draw in the colors (ya know, draw like Ancestral Recall).

Necropotence: It can be hardcast very fast with a Rit.  That's the only real reason this is here along with the Bargain.

Recurring Nightmare: Yet another Rector target, this one turns your Sneaky creatures into permanent creatures.  This is also another outlet for Rector, although it requires you to have somehow lost a creature to the yard.

Fierce Empath: Most of you probably don't remember this card from Scourge, so here's the text:

"When Fierce Empath comes into play, you may search your library for a creature card with converted mana cost 6 or more, reveal it, and put it into your hand.  Then shuffle your library."

This card is hardly ever hardcast (three sources of green mana prevents that from happening too often) because it's only good once Sneak has dropped.  Of course, then the Empath becomes RR: Find the creature you need, put it into play, and swing for X+1 of that creature's power in damage.

Exalted Angel: The Angel can be hardcast if necessary, searched for with the Empath, and it gains life when it hits.  We were thinking about testing Phantom Nishoba, but we determined that its uncastability would be strictly inferior to the possibility that an early Angel could come down and swing a few times.  

Dragon Tyrant: Biggest beater.  Much of the time he ended the game almost or completely single-handledly, which is what we wanted him for.

Duplicant: A fairly reactive card, this guy can be used in several situations to wreck the opponent's strategy.  I originally planned for him to be a sideboard card to help the Tog matchup (a 40/41 Tog, eh?  Heh, goodbye Tog, and gee, you got rid of your entire yard, too), but he ended up being decent in other matchups, where he could remove a Welder before it became active or a Gorger while they tried to go off.

Nicol Bolas: This guy eats your opponent's hand while swinging for a solid seven.  Even if you're playing against Madness, that's good.  They get some Wallas and maybe a Temper or Wurm and you breathe better knowing you almost assuredly forced them into topdeck mode.  And if they do drop some dudes, there's always...

Crater Hellion: A bomb in the Madness and TnT matchups, and still good when you need to kill a Welder or two or for stopping random stupid aggro decks.  

Sundering Titan: This guy actually hasn't been doing so hot in testing.  The obvious problem is that the deck is now 3 colors, and you lose more lands more often because of that.  He still shines in a few matchups, though, so I'm undecided whether he should stay in.


Cards that were considered but did not make the cut:

Survival of the Fittest:  In this deck SotF is too slow.  It works in TnT because cards can be brought back from the yard with Welder.  What do you want to pitch to SotF in this deck?  Nothing.

Living Wish: A solid card that could make the Toolbox approach even more potent, Wish was ultimately dismissed merely because green didn't fit into the deck (black was better for disruption, tutors, and the powerful effects).

Blue stuff: I wish this deck could fit some draw and perhaps some counters, but the maindeck is too tight with the three colors as it is.

Xantid Swarm: Suffers from being green, just like Living Wish.  


In my testing, this deck has done fairly well against a diverse set of the powerful T1 decks, but it suffers from some basic (and perhaps obvious) problems.

Disruption: With no good way to refill its hand, Sneak suffers quite a bit from counterspells and discard.  Duress and Therapy fix this problem some, but the deck can still just slow down and die because the Sneak was hit by a topdecked FoW or the Rector's trigger was Stifled.

Mana acceleration:  Think I'm running a lot of acceleration?  It's really necessary, as I've found that hands without anything that speeds up the mana have to be mulliganed.  This is unfortunate, because it also means that decks running Wastelands and Strip Mines have a nice edge over Sneak.  However, Strip effects can still be beaten out by a good healthy Dark Rit, so don't give up hope on that regard.  

Maybe you should give up hope on this next point, though, which is...

Inconsistency:  I simply have to mulligan a lot of hands away.  If you don't have Sneak or Rector, some acceleration, and preferably a discard card, you most likely should throw back for a new hand.  I have yet to figure out a way to fix this issue.  Serum Powder may work, but I haven't tested it yet, so I cannot say for certain.


Of course, there are some good points, like running some of the most powerful effects and creatures in the game, and having a way to use these elements that cannot be countered short of Stifle.  It doesn't run into the problem other Rector decks run into like having to have the Rector or an insane hand to combo, as it runs 4 copies of the necessary enchantment.  It also dodges much of the artifact hate going around, while taking advantage of the decrease in enchantment hate.  There are also some promising test results:

Control Slaver:  This matchup seems like it should absolutely suck, but Sneak has shown that, with a good hand (and by that I mean the kind of hand you keep) the Welders will never really get active.  The key here is fighting a Rector or Sneak through the counter magic, which means Duress and Therapy are your friend.  Once you get a Sneak down, go for something to kill any Welders that were dropped early, then go for Nicol Bolas.  When they're handless and Welderless, you've quite obviously got them dead.

TnT: TnT has to race you here.  You race for a Sneak and then a Crater Hellion, and they race to kill you.  I won nearly all of the games I tested against Blood Moon TnT, especially since their Blood Moons and Pyrostatic Pillars rarely have any noticeable effect (Pillar can hurt if it hits turn one, but other than that it's nothing).

Food Chain: Decks without counterspells tend to have a hard time with this build of Sneak, and FCG is no different.  Sometimes they'll go nuts and just combo you out, but usually you'll be able to keep them down with Duress and Therapy until a Sneak drops, at which point Crater Hellion can kill whatever is left on the board and Tyrant or Bolas can seal the game.

Landstill: I admittedly haven't tested this matchup as much as I would like, yet, but so far it has shown itself to be another race: your Sneak under their Standstill.  Unfortunately, before you can go for the Sneak, you have to take any FoWs they may be holding, so that complicates things a bit.  

Hulk: This matchup sucks.  Getting a Sneak Attack out is difficult like getting with Carmen Electra is difficult.  Hulk's got the counters, the fast methods of finding them (Brainstorm is a bitch, too), and the way to kill you afterward.  About the only hope you have is to hoard some discard, a Rit, and a Sneak / Rector, then go for it all in the same turn.  If you do get a Sneak down, you should be ok, because you can then go for Nicol Bolas to hamper their kill math or Duplicant to take their Tog away.  

Stax: If they get a turn one Sphere, pack it up and go to the next game.  However, if you're lucky, you'll get to drop a Sneak or a Rector before they find one.  My advice is to try to win the die roll here  .

From all this, it is plain to see that dropping a Sneak can severely mess up most opposing decks, but dropping it and dropping it quickly is the problem in and of itself.  If anyone has some good suggestions, this is the place to post them.

Before I stop my yapping, I'd like to make it clear that I do not believe this deck to be viable in its current form (though it is fun as hell).  The consistency and resiliency of the deck in the face of disruption has to be improved somehow for it to be truly competitive, and I have run out of ideas.  Once again, if you have some, please, feel free to post them here.

[Hi-Val]

You have to ask yourself whether this is a better deck than Rector-Tendrils. Why would you grab Sneak Attack when you can get Bargain and win the game? I could see using Sneak if you were unpowered, but running a Tendrils kill is far more stable.

[Shadow Ninja]

You have to ask yourself whether this is a better deck than Rector-Tendrils. Why would you grab Sneak Attack when you can get Bargain and win the game? I could see using Sneak if you were unpowered, but running a Tendrils kill is far more stable.

I actually did ask myself that question, and it comes down to a few key points.  I cannot say one deck is significantly better than the other, but:

Stifle: Stifle is a big game over for Rector Tendrils, usually.  Sneak has the advantage of not needing Rector to fetch the enchantment, but utilizes the Rector for consistency only.  

Graveyard hate:  Dragon is some good.  So good that everybody is packign graveyard hate these days.  This hate truly hampers the Rector Tendrils decks, whereas Sneak can be mindful of this and mulligan for the Sneak.

Tendrils places all of its hope into a pure combo, but Sneak is more of a combo that goes for disruption instead of applying all its resources to the quick kill.  That's not the best explanation, but you can think of it like a deck with several options for achieving the necessary goal of dropping the Sneak, and then it has slower but more debilitating effects that will end the game, unlike Tendrils, which ends quickly but falls even harder to disruption than Sneak.

While talking to Dr. Sylvan on AIM about this, he compared my deck to "a cross between Rector and Mask."  This is an apt statement, as this deck is not a hardcore combo like Rector Tendrils, but it isn't the complete non-bo (nor is it hit by all the artifact removal) that Mask decks are.

[kirdape3]

Sneak is resolving a four casting cost spell plus R to try to kill them with, as opposed to a bazillion mana producers that are so numerous as to defy comprehension then a Tendrils.  I'll take the latter.

[Shadow Ninja]

Sneak is resolving a four casting cost spell plus R to try to kill them with, as opposed to a bazillion mana producers that are so numerous as to defy comprehension then a Tendrils.  I'll take the latter.

I would argue that you're looking at this wrong.

With Sneak, you're going trying for the fast 4cc enchantment plus RR (Empath search is often necessary) to hamper the opponent's gameplan, whereas Rector is the fight to get Rector on the table, then to use it successfully through the Stifles and the Graveyard hate to get the Bargain.  If you get the Bargain, then you are golden.

Rector is definitely the better choice if your metagame doesn't have a lot of Dragon.  However, if you have to deal with silly infinite mana combos all the time, then Sneak can be effective, as it has been showing quite promising results against Dragon.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I'd like to make it clear that I do not believe this deck to be viable in its current form (though it is fun as hell). The consistency and resiliency of the deck in the face of disruption has to be improved somehow for it to be truly competitive

Shayne has made clear he considers it a specialized and uncompetitive deck, so let's try not to give him too many "play another deck" comments. Besides, he likes Stax better anyway. :)

My suggestion would be that the Recurring Nightmare is kinda random. At 26 mana, I think you could stand to increase the count by one.

[Shadow Ninja]

Recurring Nightmare is actually pretty good, because it can get back something important (like an Empath), and you have a bunch of enchantment search anyway.  What this deck desperately needs is a way to keep the pressure on, and that's what Recurring Nightmare does.  I've actually been considering cutting something for another.

As for the mana, I usually don't have a problem getting enough lands.  The problem tends to be getting enough acceleration, so I may add in a Crypt for something.  The question then is what to cut, and right now I don't have the answer.  I'm considering Necropotence, wich is too situational, especially in a deck that often has enchantment fetch for the superior Bargain.

[Dante]

the real problem is that your deck doesn't do anything.  Don't take that the wrong way....but you get sneak attack out.....and then what??  You only have a couple of fat creatures in your deck and some of them have an upkeep you can't pay.  So you go through all this disruption, get sneak attack out, and attack once with nicol bolas?  The rector part seems weak too, since even if you get bargain out, what are going to do, cast sneak attack?

Here's the thing - if you're going to go through all this trouble to get a creature into play, it had better kill quickly, not require an upkeep, and/or do something when it goes to the graveyard (aka Verdant Force, Dreadnought, Platslagwurm, etc).

Check out dicemanx's Skull deck (search the type 1 forum early on).  It was a red/green deck that used Sneak Attack, Oath of Druids, and Eureka to drop big, worthwhile creatures (untargetable, get tokens when they die, etc).  Should the put-into-play methods get countered or destroyed, with the amount of mana generated, you can hard cast the creatures.

Here are my suggestions:

- you need big creatures with good abilities, I'd recommend green, especially since you could use vineyard and other acceleration to put out a sneak attack turn 2.

- get rid of the search and tutoring - If all your going to do is search and tutor for sneak attack/big creatures, why not just add more big creatures, especially ones you can hardcast?

- not only should your creatures be hard-castable if possible, but there should be more ways to get them into play besides Sneak Attack.  You could use Show and Tell, Eureka, Oath of Druids, etc....so if you had 8 ways to get your big creatures in play (and they had good abilities in addition to being FAT) plus they were all hard-castable, you'd be in good shape for a long game...

- the Rector/Bargain is useless here....so you draw a lot of cards, if you're not going to win with it.....

- cut to two colors.  If you want red to keep sneak attack in, then I would add either green or blue.

Bill

Edit - found the link http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15021&highlight=skull

[Shadow Ninja]

For reference, the text on Sneak Attack:
"R: Put a creature card from your hand into play.  That creature gains haste until end of turn. Sacrifice the creature at end of turn."

the real problem is that your deck doesn't do anything.  Don't take that the wrong way....but you get sneak attack out.....and then what??  You only have a couple of fat creatures in your deck and some of them have an upkeep you can't pay.  So you go through all this disruption, get sneak attack out, and attack once with nicol bolas?  The rector part seems weak too, since even if you get bargain out, what are going to do, cast sneak attack?

The deck is not meant to function as a Rector combo deck, like Tendrils.  It is meant to get Sneak out, then use creatures with solid abilities to disrupt the opponent.  You attack with Nicol Bolas because he eats your opponent's entire hand, not because he's going to single-handedly win the game (although I argue eating their hand like that would win the game most of the time).

Also, when you Sneak them in, they are sacrificed at the end of turn, so upkeep costs do not apply.  

Here's the thing - if you're going to go through all this trouble to get a creature into play, it had better kill quickly, not require an upkeep, and/or do something when it goes to the graveyard (aka Verdant Force, Dreadnought, Platslagwurm, etc).

My creatures do kill quickly (Dragon Tyrant swings for 12 and is pumpable before Double Strike), the upkeep thing does not apply, and some of the cards do have leaves play effects (Rector, Titan).  These creatures arguably all "kill" fast by messing with the opponent's main strategy.  Crater Hellion wrecks TnT.  Duplicant wrecks a pumped Tog.  Nicol Bolas wrecks... everything.

Verdant Force never sees an upkeep in this deck, Dreadnought's ability triggers when you sneak him, so he never gets to swing, and Plated Slagwurm just doesn't do anything to stop your opponent from winning.

Check out dicemanx's Skull deck (search the type 1 forum early on).  It was a red/green deck that used Sneak Attack, Oath of Druids, and Eureka to drop big, worthwhile creatures (untargetable, get tokens when they die, etc).  Should the put-into-play methods get countered or destroyed, with the amount of mana generated, you can hard cast the creatures.

I did check it out, and I thought it was quite impressive.  Unfortunately, in today's metagame, Eureka can really misfire, and his deck doesn't have a way to cope with that.  Sure, you drop some fat with Eureka, and then they drop a Nev's Disk, untap next turn, and blow your stuff up.  Or worse, they drop Mindslaver, Welder, and enough mana to cast multiple draw spells or Pentavus.  My deck is designed to deal with the recent shift in the metagame, which is shown through my description of the results from testing decks like Slaver (although I still wish Hulk was a better matchup =/)

Here are my suggestions:

- you need big creatures with good abilities, I'd recommend green, especially since you could use vineyard and other acceleration to put out a sneak attack turn 2.

Nicol Bolas eats the opponent's hand.  Crater Hellion is a wrath of god against the prevalent aggro decks (TnT, Food Chain to a certain extent, Madness, and others all have toughness 4 or less).  Sundering Titan destroys a lot of the opponent's mana.  Duplicant can remove any trouble creature as long as it's targetable, and is hardcastable in extreme cases.  Dragon Tyrant is the biggest beater in the game, and has trample and evasion AND pump.  Exalted I'm not happy about, but there isn't much else worth it for the slot.

As for acceleration, Dark Ritual is just better for acceleration than Vineyard, and the discard is necessary to force through a Sneak or Rector.  Rector is necessary to help the inconsistency of the deck by at least making it near-guaranteed you'll have one of 8 Sneaks in hand every opening hand.  

- get rid of the search and tutoring - If all your going to do is search and tutor for sneak attack/big creatures, why not just add more big creatures, especially ones you can hardcast?

I assume you're referring to Rector and Empath here, as well as Demo, Vampy, and ET.  Well, Rector and Empath have both shown their worth in testing.  Rector makes the deck far more consistent and allows for fairly broken strings of events once you have a Sneak down.  Empath allows the deck to function as a toolbox, meaning I don't have to run 20 cards total for my 6 big beaters.  Empath allows me to find what I need, when I need it, and can become fodder for Recurring Nightmare or flashback Cabal Therapy when necesary.  The tutors are in the deck because of the lack of good draw mechanisms.  If I can't draw a bunch of cards, I can at least run the tutors so I can search for what I need when I need it.

- not only should your creatures be hard-castable if possible, but there should be more ways to get them into play besides Sneak Attack.  You could use Show and Tell, Eureka, Oath of Druids, etc....so if you had 8 ways to get your big creatures in play (and they had good abilities in addition to being FAT) plus they were all hard-castable, you'd be in good shape for a long game...

You're right, it would be lovely if this deck could hardcast all of its creatures, but this deck still wouldn't have a long game.  Sneak only functions when it's using its tools to thwart the opponent's tools, and that means it's looking for a midgame shutdown followed by a quick knockout punch, not a drawn out game where the opponent has time to find answers.

As for running more ways of finding creatures, Oath is out, simply because it does not support the toolbox nature of the deck.  Eureka is out simply because if I'm going to protect a 4cc spell, it's going to be Sneak, not a card that lets my opponent drop all his answers when I drop my Sneak or creatures.  Blue has little to offer the deck, and Show and Tell is not enough.

- the Rector/Bargain is useless here....so you draw a lot of cards, if you're not going to win with it.....

Rector finds Sneak first, Bargain later.  The second Rector will sometimes be used to find Bargain, in which case you draw a bunch, play the mana, and sneak a bunch of stuff for the win.  Bargain has won games for me that I should not have won, even with Sneak on the table.

- cut to two colors.  If you want red to keep sneak attack in, then I would add either green or blue.

Bill

Black is completely necessary for the explosiveness of Dark Rit and the early disruption of Duress and Therapy.  White is necessary to provide consistency in finding a fast and early Sneak.  Red is necessary to the nature of the deck, because the creatures are only truly useful disruption tools once Sneak is down.

I hope I addressed your concerns thoroughly, but I must say I feel somewhat confused that you would say things like the creatures I chose don't have useful abilities (creature sweeping, Super Land D, complete hand D, the biggest beater in the game, and creature removal don't count?).

[Dante]

Black is completely necessary for the explosiveness of Dark Rit and the early disruption of Duress and Therapy.  White is necessary to provide consistency in finding a fast and early Sneak.  Red is necessary to the nature of the deck, because the creatures are only truly useful disruption tools once Sneak is down.

I hope I addressed your concerns thoroughly, but I must say I feel somewhat confused that you would say things like the creatures I chose don't have useful abilities (creature sweeping, Super Land D, complete hand D, the biggest beater in the game, and creature removal don't count?).

I am aware of what sneak attack does (and gives haste) and the creatures do have some useful abilities.  The problems I see are:

- You cannot win without Sneak Attack.  The inability to hardcast any creature in the deck with the possible exception of the Angel makes you 100% reliant on Sneak Attack.

- Over half your "tutors" (the empaths) sit useless unless you already have Sneak Attack out.

- Since you cannot reliably hardcast any of the creatures and none of them leave token creatures when they die like the green Wurms do, you will have to find  at least 2 of your 6 creatures to attack with, possibly more (who knows how big the Duplicant will be and people do play creature removal).  Nicol Bolas is great, but he's only 1/3 of their life.  In a 3-color deck like this, you're probably going to kill at least as many of your own lands with Sundering Titan as the opponent, especially since you're 3 color.  Even worse if they're not playing red and you need to destroy 2 of your own red sources (one on the way in and one on the way out).

As you stated, inconsistency is a killer in one-trick pony decks (that's what this is, it lives and dies by Sneak Attack).  The only way around that is to either 1. add consistency via hardcastable creatures OR 2. add more ways to get your creatures into play (or both).

You stated that the deck wasn't competitive in its current form and inconsistency was a key reason for that along with your total reliance on getting a Sneak Attack into play.  I've tried to give some suggestions, but you then defend the current build and creature selection.....so I'm confused then.

Bill

EDIT - in addition, you only have 1 of each of these "utility" creatures, making you even more reliable on tutors and such to find the one you want (and some tutors don't come online until sneak attack is out).  So while a Crater Helion is nice vs Madness, you need to find and resolve a sneak attack and then find the 1 crater helion in your deck, all while avoiding their counters.....

[Shadow Ninja]

- You cannot win without Sneak Attack.  The inability to hardcast any creature in the deck with the possible exception of the Angel makes you 100% reliant on Sneak Attack.

I believe I already admitted to this.  Duplicant is hardcastable, too, although that's no good argument.

- Over half your "tutors" (the empaths) sit useless unless you already have Sneak Attack out.

And when Sneak hits they're the best tutors in the deck.  Still, your point is valid in that I still need Sneak out.

- Since you cannot reliably hardcast any of the creatures and none of them leave token creatures when they die like the green Wurms do, you will have to find  at least 2 of your 6 creatures to attack with, possibly more (who knows how big the Duplicant will be and people do play creature removal).  Nicol Bolas is great, but he's only 1/3 of their life.  In a 3-color deck like this, you're probably going to kill at least as many of your own lands with Sundering Titan as the opponent, especially since you're 3 color.  Even worse if they're not playing red and you need to destroy 2 of your own red sources (one on the way in and one on the way out).

The Titan, like I already said in my original post, has given mixed results, but I have yet to lose when Nicol Bolas has swung in.  His effect is too powerful, and most decks cannot function well at all in topdeck mode.  This gives me the time I need to get the second guy.  Perhaps I'll add a second Nicol Bolas so that I can find the second if necessary.

Most of the decks in today's metagame aren't well equipped to deal with fat like that run in this deck.  StP is hardly run anymore, and it's the best instant creature kill around.  Still, you are correct, I usually will have to find or sneak at least two guys, which is why tricks like Recurring Nightmare are included, as a sort of complicated way of recycling creatures and effects.[/quote]

As you stated, inconsistency is a killer in one-trick pony decks (that's what this is, it lives and dies by Sneak Attack).  The only way around that is to either 1. add consistency via hardcastable creatures OR 2. add more ways to get your creatures into play (or both).

The inconsistency I was referring to was in having solid opening hands.  Once the Sneak is down, the deck functions just fine.  The Sneak is not the problem, it's just tweaking the deck so that it will have to mulligan less often.

You stated that the deck wasn't competitive in its current form and inconsistency was a key reason for that along with your total reliance on getting a Sneak Attack into play.  I've tried to give some suggestions, but you then defend the current build and creature selection.....so I'm confused then.

I'm defending them because I disagreed with your ideas.  I'm sorry if that was confusing, but you said that the deck "does nothing" and that I needed creatures with good effects.  What was I supposed to think when you said that?  It felt like you hadn't even read the post.  Yes, this deck isn't quite up to snuff, but completely revamping it isn't the idea.  As for Skull.dec, what sort of reliable results has it posted to show it's better than my build?  I'm sure it's a good deck, but I'm completely sure this deck is good, too, and that with a few changes it could be tourney playable.  

I've already had plenty of suggestions to play another deck, or to change this deck into essentially another deck, but I wasn't asking for that.  I'm well aware there are plenty of decks out there for me to choose, but I wanted to take a good look at what worked in Sneak and what didn't, because I was intrigued, and decided to post my findings.  You telling me to play something else doesn't help me figure out what exactly could be done to salvage this project.  If you wanted to tell me to drop this, then you could've done that.

EDIT - in addition, you only have 1 of each of these "utility" creatures, making you even more reliable on tutors and such to find the one you want (and some tutors don't come online until sneak attack is out).  So while a Crater Helion is nice vs Madness, you need to find and resolve a sneak attack and then find the 1 crater helion in your deck, all while avoiding their counters.....

That's the idea of a toolbox build, free up slots for other things (like the discard, which I feel is essential) by using tutors to find what you need when you need it.  Avoiding Madness's counters isn't difficult at all; it's avoiding Tog's and Control Slaver's that is hard.  It's still possible, though, because of Duress and Therapy, and once you get the Sneak down, counters become moot.  I can drop turn 1 sneak, turn 3 reliably, and by then Madness will have hit me for probably around 10.  Ok, so then I find and use Nicol Bolas and then Hellion (to kill extra madnessed guys), and suddenly they have maybe a pumped Mongrel and no hand and they're at 13 to 7 life, depending.  Then I've essentially won, because I will either have A) Another good beater B) More disruption or C) A tutor for a beater.  

I don't wish to sound defensive, although I admittedly feel a bit defensive at the moment, but I honestly disagreed with your opinions and suggestions.  I don't want to change this deck; the intent was either to fix it or analyze why we couldn't and go from there.  You are free to give up on this deck; I'm not quite ready yet.  If this deck can't be salvaged, fine, at least I'll have given it a shot.

I posted this thread because I expected it to be a failure, but I also expected some helpful input other than switch decks or change 56 out of 60 cards in the deck.  I posted a failure because it's what I've harped on the pros to do.  But this deck has shown more promise than I expected, so I'm not so sure it's a failure, in that regard.

I think now I've made it clear what kind of input I was looking for (or rather not looking for).  If you no longer have anything for me, then that's fine, but I'm not ready to give this up yet.

[meatpipeline]

If the Exalted Angel or any of the other creatures are not what you were looking for I would suggest any of the following creatures (keep in mind that these are just ideas, very untested ideas):

Furnase Dragon: Evasion, decent size, artifact hate.
Penumbra Wurm: Stays around, good with recurring nightmare.
Darksteel Colouss: Stays around, searchable, trample.
"Gating Creatures": while sub-optimal they add tricks to the deck.

Those are all that I can think off the top of my head.

I'm curious what creatures you have tested that didn't work out.  If you could share that information it would be much appreciated.

Phil

[serracollector]

Just an idea since your so worried about disruption, you could try avalanche riders or Abyssal Horror.  Extra Discard and LD, and with the recurring nightmare, their not that bad.  My 2 cents.

Serracollector

[Shadow Ninja]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

Furnace Dragon:  It has to be played from hand, so Sneak doesn't trigger its ability, otherwise it'd definitely be maindeck.  

Penumbra Wurm: I actually hadn't thought about it, but it seems like it would just be playing fat to be playing fat.  The goal here is to use big creatures with gamebreaking abilities, so I was trying to stay away from normal fat (aside from the Tyrant, which we've determined to be the biggest beater out there for this).

DS Colossus: Another thought we tested, I'm seriously considering maindecking him and sideboarding another, just because he dodges everything but StP.  That may well be important enough to run 1-2 main.

Gating Creatures:  By these do you mean the Planeshift creatures?  LEt me take a look at those real quick... Having just glanced over them, I would say that none of them have abilities that would make them better choices than the fat in the deck.  Also, unless I'm mistaken, none of them had a converted mana cost of 6 or more, so they'd be harder to dig for.

Avalanche Rider / Abyssal Horror:  I've taken a look at these two, also.  We (my playtesting pals and I) even started the build with 3 Avalanche Riders maindecked, but we found that, without Sneak, they weren't very good, and with Sneak the other creatures were better.  I would still advocate a couple Riders in the side, because they can take care of those pesky nonbasic lands (Workshop and Bazaar).

Other creatures we've tested include Phantom Nishoba, Worldgorger Dragon, False Prophet, and others I can't remember at the moment, but we decided that the abilities they provided or the cute tricks you could pull with them weren't as good as the tricks the rest of the creatures are capable of.

[firebird365]

[card]Weatherseed Treefolk[/card] is a nice recurrable creature, so you basically swing for 5 a turn. A little small, but he'd shore up your aggro matches (he could attack on your turn, then come back, then Sneak him out on their turn).

Honestly, I think the main problem with Sneak Attack is reliably getting it out; the difference between SA and other semi-combo decks is that if a combo deck gets its key card (YawgWill in Long, for example) it just wins, whereas Sneak Attack will require one or two hits to do so.

[Shadow Ninja]

[card]Weatherseed Treefolk[/card] is a nice recurrable creature, so you basically swing for 5 a turn. A little small, but he'd shore up your aggro matches (he could attack on your turn, then come back, then Sneak him out on their turn).

Honestly, I think the main problem with Sneak Attack is reliably getting it out; the difference between SA and other semi-combo decks is that if a combo deck gets its key card (YawgWill in Long, for example) it just wins, whereas Sneak Attack will require one or two hits to do so.

The problem I see with the Treefolk is that it can't be searched for with Empath.  Otherwise it might be a good choice for reliable beats.  However, my aggro matchup has been good in testing (I think I went something like 9-1 against Blood Moon TnT) because Crater Hellion and, to a lesser extent, Duplicant just wreck them.  

You are absolutely correct that getting the Sneak out is the toughest issue.  That is the point I have been trying to stress in this thread, and is the reason I advocate using the black for Dark Rit, Duress, and Therapy.

Also, you're right when you say this isn't a real combo.  This is almost Mask-like in that regard.  However, once Sneak is down,it usually only takes a couple Sneaks (Empath + Gamebreaking guy) to severely impair the opponent's strategy.  In that regards it's more like a traditional Rector deck, or perhaps even like Prison (take away their options).  It is for these reasons that we call Sneak is definitely the bastard child of Rector and Mask.

[Zanetanos101]

Nice job, glad someone has expanded on the original idea.  Looks great to me, the only thing that I might consider are some recurring threats like Shivan Phoenix.  Just some thoughts, good job though.  Also, you are correct in saying that the issue is getting the Sneak Attack or Rector to resolve, here is my solution.  Either Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant.  Simply chant them before casting the Sneak Attack they aren't liable to have that many counterspells castable that second.

[firebird365]

The problem is half the counterability of Sneak Attack (which he has helped through the addition of Black); the second half is accelerating out Sneak Attack fast enough to be competetive. It's hard to do both, and if you get a god-draw, you'd be better off playing Dragon. The hard part is figuring out what makes this a better choice than other combo decks.

[Shadow Ninja]

Orim's Chant is something I hadn't considered.  Perhaps it can be fit in the deck, maybe in place of Duress?

Shivan Phoenix seems solid, especially because it can lead to some fun tricks with Recurring Nightmare.  I'll have to test it to see if it's worth it, or if the deck should just focus on the disruption guys.

The nice thing about this deck is it has the ability to avoid a lot of the hate pointed at Dragon (like graveyard removal) as well as the artifact hate that makes Mask unviable.  That's why I decided to look at this in the first place.

[Zanetanos101]

Ya Chant really makes stuff resolve.  I see a lot of Parfait players doing it.

[Shadow Ninja]

Well, I've been doing some more testing, with some pretty decent results.  Here's the changes tot he list:

-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Exalted Angel
-1 Scrubland
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Necropotence

+1 Symbiotic Wurm
+1 Shivan Phoenix
+2 Diabolic Intent (thanks to Mad Doctah Phil-van for this one)
+1 Mana Crypt (I must be some sort of idiot for forgetting this one)

Symbiotic Wurm takes its rightful place among the all star cast of creatures as a big beater that leaves friends.  The tokens left behind further help the deck keep pressure on, and allow for more Recurring Nightmares, Therapies, and Diabolic Intent.

Shivan Phoenix is another addition bent on keeping the pressure going.  He just keeps coming back for more, and can be used in this way as an emergency blocker or as a pawn for a saccing effect.

Diabolic Intent is added as an experimental tutor to be used as a 5th and 6th way of reliably saccing Rector and as a way of getting more use out of your Sneaked creatures.  Before the deck had the very real possibility of stalling out without finding more big beaters or the Nightmare, but the 2 Intents have done much to help this situation, allowing you to turn an Empath or your last big beater (or a Rector) into yet another utility beatstick.  The fun part comes from saccing a Rector to Intent and searching for a beater to use with the Sneak you fetch with the Rector.  Synergy is fun and stuff, and is the best thing this deck has going for it.

Any comments on the new additions?

Oh, and I've done some testing against Meandeck Slaver, with mixed results.  The changes have made the early game more consistent, but Meandeck seems like a matchup where I'd consider siding in Orim's Chant (I couldn't see maindecking it over Duress, and nothing else was cutable in my eyes).  If Sneak came down in time to stop a Welder from Recurring Slaver, Sneak had the advantage, but Brainstorm made Therapies and Duresses less effective than I would have liked.  The creature to go for first here depends on if they've dropped a Welder yet, meaning either Hellion or Nicol Bolas.  I may have to consider a second Duplicant for the board or perhap even False Prophet, because Memnarch and Pentavus both live through Hellion.  While Memnarch has yet to be a problem in testing, Pentavus has the nasty advantage of making flying chump blockers, making Nicol Bolas useless when Pentavus has hit and making Dragon Tyrant less useful.

[MisterShark]

This takes me back.  My favorite 'deck from my past' was my Sneak Attack.  One of the cards I used instead of Re. Nightmare was Corpse Dance.  Especially with the buy-back it becomes a nice recycler.  I also ran Bloodshot Cyclops in order to throw the Nicol Bolas or whoever in order to double damage following the normal attack damage.  As a bonus, the Cyclops also could throw a Corpse Danced creature so that it would hit the grave before Dance removed it from the game at the end of turn.  Tucked safely back into the grave, the creature awaited re-animation on the next turn with my bought-back Corpse Dance .

Those were the good ol' days though, before the bar got raised in my play circle.  It seemed less viable as my buddies' put together Keeper, TnT and more.  Keep the faith though; a lot of new cards have come out since I tooled with the now-dissolved Sneak Deck which might increase it's viability, even if not in the top tiers.  That deck was major fun to play.

[Wsauret]

I play lots of casual so maybe that is why this is something that i have seen before, but with all the comments that are being made, what is wrong with using [card]Serra Avatar[/card] as a sneakable creature? In many cases she will be quite large, and she is resuable as she never really stays in your grave yeard. This card combos well with exhalted angel (life gain), and some of your other cards. I dont know if you had already considered it, and then ruled it out, but i thought i'd mention it seein that no one else has.

Wes

[MisterShark]

I avoided Serra Avatar because of her complete lack of evasion abilities; any 1/1 scrub creature on the board could block her attack, and then back into the library she goes.

[Shadow Ninja]

In regards to the Avatar, the evasion thing is really the issue.  She just runs into more random stuff than she's worth.  With the comparable creature in my build, that being Dragon Tyrant, you get a big beater with flying, trample, double strike, and firebreathing.  All that amounts to a beatstick that's just plain better at getting damage through than the Avatar.

Corpse Dance seems too mana intensive, especially compared to Recurring Nightmare, which buybacks itself, and can be found for free by extra Rectors.

The Cyclops is good, but he's only good if you have him and another fatty.  This pretty much means you need two Empaths in hand to use him effectively (or one Empath and the Cyclops).  Searching for him is almost never going to be as beneficial as searching for another beatstick.  I guess he's hardcastable, but by that time you should either have disrupted your opponent to the point where you've basically won, won outright, or lost.

[Tank]

Sera Avatar<Darksteel Colussus. Pure and simpel. Colussus may be smaller (t times, but once you start using bargain, SA becomes tiny). also, DS prevents you from being milled and has trample.

Oh, as Ninja discovered, I too am working on a deck like this

Ninja:

Why not the Living wishes? I see them as much more viable than what you have! 4 wishes instead of four creatures allows you to get EXACTLY the card you need for whichever situation you're in.

Orim's Chant: I'd, personally, take it over duress, but then again, that's just me. I'm currently trying to figure what to lose in favour of this baby

Also, as mentioned, Pandemonium does wonders in this deck, so please, play it! It's also great with the treefolk, ensuring a two-turn kill in 90% of the cases! (once you get pandemonium and sneak into play of course )

I'd also forget about the empaths and just put in more "good" creatures instead, for exmple the four weatherseed, seeing as they keep coming back for more and are superior to the pheonix (except, they don't fly :-/). Nether void is another rector-target that hurts most people like hell An oath or two would also work really well 8note: I still haven't tested this version, but the fact that it's an alternative to sneak attack should help quite a bit)

[Shadow Ninja]

I run the Empaths over the Wishes because the manabase is messed up enough as is.  I can't see dropping black, and white and red have to stay for obvious reasons, so the Wishes just don't fit.  I am considering attempting a four color build, but even then I like the Empaths more as they find what I need for a mana less (when snuck in).  Empaths are also reusable with Recurring Nightmare tricks, and can be sacrificed to Intent or Therapy.  Wish cannot.  

Duress is never dead against any deck.  The only reason for running Chant would be for forcing through a Rector or Sneak against a deck with Forces or Drains.  Thus, Chant is better in some matchups, but Duress is good in every matchup.  

Colossus is good, but until more decks start maindecking instant speed removal, Tyrant is better, as it evades, double strikes, tramples, and pumps.  DS Colossus can't hold a candle to that.

I also considered the Weatherseed, and if I were running green in my build I would certainly run them, but as is, the Shivan is found by the Empath, has evasion, and keeps coming back, even if it is a lowly 3/4.  

Pandemonium seems really good in theory, but then again, so does Recurring Nightmare, which makes all of my creatures do double duty (and not just in damage, either).  As for which is better, I'm not sure.  I plan to test it, though.

[Bobduh]

Ah, sneak attack... I remember almost-making a sneak attack-eureka build (green-red, with the wurms and such for lots of nasty tokens)... but too often I was stuck waiting to topdeck enough fat for the win. Sooo, I switched to TnT, and haven't looked back since.

I really can't see that you should sacrifice speed to add the disruption available from black. Ritual is not justification. With a deck like this, you have to outrun all the opposition, and to do that you want to streamline it to two colors, and make it so that when you play a spell, it's either an accelerant or a fat-funnel. This is the first reason I recommend a green-red build.

Anyway, Eureka would be suicide in the current environment, so you should definitely up the fat count of the most-often-needed creatures, cut the duplicant and (in my opinion) add in Oath. That way you'd have eight methods of dropping the fat into play, canceling out the rectors (which are another card to be countered, and are completely nullified by a stifle). This is the second reason I recommend a green-red build.

In fact, drop in a couple wurms, get rid of the Nicol Bolas (very fun to use, but not much fun to Oath for), add some green mana, and call it Secret Forcez. With an accent on the Z. Being able to use the name "Secret ForceZ" can be the third reason I recommend a green-red build.

-Bobduh

[mikechaser]

  Hi! First of all i think this ideia of building a deck around Sneak Attack is pretty cool and not only that but is SERIOUS FUN  HEHEHE
I must say that when i read this thread i though what a fun idea for building a deck... cause after all... magic is not only about winning all the time... because that is impossible to do so and is also one of the things that makes magic so challenging! But what do i think magic is all about? Well magic is essencially a great game intelectually speaking but most of all... is all about FUN! So i guess the real challenge is not to build the ultimate deck that wins all the time but decks that you have fun with and still get you to win many many times (nobody like to loose right?) So... as i digged into your idea i imediatly started to tinker around with your build... and man i don't care what they say... DON'T GIVE THE DECK UP... because it is pretty cool and serious FUN!
Anyway i came across these to cards with i think would be great in this deck! They are Survival of the Fittest and Gleancrawler!
imagine what it would be like to fetch all the time exactlly the beater you need with survival of the fittest (if not cast then brought with academy rector) AND after you beat him up with giant creatures with awsome effects, given one of them is Gleancrawler (on his own is a 6/6 trampler - not bad huh?), you get them all back to your hand including the Gleancrawler for another round of spanking (your next turn) or defence (opponent´s turn)!!!!
What do you think of them?
Cheers

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