Dont care.
I have a life outside the net.....

I try but there is simply nothing i did wrong and i get everything closed under my ass without getting a chance....dont you think this is bullshit?

OK again and again.

I have not broken a single rule I post a normal question and all the Mods can do is playing god trying to forbid me my mouth......

You are such bitches? Didnt your mother treat you well so that you have to nerve nice guys here.

Hmmmm.....the atmosphere here is not good so far I dont like to post here anyway......

Tell me what my fault was.....explain before closing......

Have fun and feel mighty closing this again.....
If i knew you i would smash you in your ugly faces....


My question:

What can be put for example in a 3c-4c 4cControl to make matchups better against these 2 decks?

Some ideas: Stifle, Duress, Mind Twist, Counterthings, Arcane Laboratory (Tendrils....does Lab help here), Null Rod....what else???

The decks (dont discuss about the exact decklists, I just want hints what to GENERALLY do against them)

The Draw7:

1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Diminishing Returns
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Fastbond
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phrexian Dreadnough
3 Hurkyl's Recall


Belcher:

/Search
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Land Grant

//Disruption
3 Duress
3 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy

//Acceleration
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Eladamri's Vineyard
4 Chromatic Sphere

//The Broken
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Channel

//Land
1 Bayou

//Kill
4 Goblin Charbelcher

At first: NO I DONT KNOW WHICH GUIDELINES I HAVE BROKEN BUT LET ME POST MY QUESTIONS BEFORE U CLOSE THE THREAD AFTER 5 MINUTES.

SOMETIMES THESE MODS HERE MAKE ME ANGRY CLOSING EVERYTHING FEELING LIKE THE KING BUT BEING RIDICULOUS POOR BITCHES!!!

LOCK AGAIN IF YOUR ARE A LOSER!



My question:

What can be put for example in a 3c-4c 4cControl to make matchups better against these 2 decks?

Some ideas: Stifle, Duress, Mind Twist, Counterthings, Arcane Laboratory (Tendrils....does Lab help here), Null Rod....what else???

The decks (dont discuss about the exact decklists, I just want hints what to GENERALLY do against them)

The Draw7:

1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Diminishing Returns
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Fastbond
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phrexian Dreadnough
3 Hurkyl's Recall


Belcher:

/Search
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Land Grant

//Disruption
3 Duress
3 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy

//Acceleration
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Eladamri's Vineyard
4 Chromatic Sphere

//The Broken
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Channel

//Land
1 Bayou

//Kill
4 Goblin Charbelcher

What can be put for example in a 3c-4c Keeper to make matchups better against these 2 decks?

Some ideas: Stifle, Duress, Mind Twist, Counterthings, Arcane Laboratory (Tendrils....does Lab help here), Null Rod....what else???

The decks (dont discuss about the exact decklists, I just want hints what to GENERALLY do against them)

The draw7:

1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Diminishing Returns
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Fastbond
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phrexian Dreadnough
3 Hurkyl's Recall


Belcher:

/Search
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Land Grant

//Disruption
3 Duress
3 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy

//Acceleration
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Eladamri's Vineyard
4 Chromatic Sphere

//The Broken
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Channel

//Land
1 Bayou

//Kill
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Hmmm...Null Rod is really a nice idea.

For the decks tactic (crucibles, Manlands, Wastes) more then 3 colors arent possible. But i prefer bacl much over white alone because of Duress, not to mention the tutors.
Black can not be thrown out.

And StoP isnt important because i have my Oath-SB and Deed Main.
Against fast Suis i could play Edict but i dont like it much.
Against Draw7 i could put Thran Foundry in the Deck.
This could replace Tormods Crypt!

Its nearly as good....and can also work against Dragon and Atog....

I didnt say that this deck beats everything but it seems to be very strong.
What about being constructive and giving me some hints, Moxlotus?
I am not cocky i simply like it  

What could save me better from Tendrils as the Lab?

Maybe Null Rod (which is very good against artifact decks indeed !) can help here because of all the artifact mana and Eggs..... maybe replace Crypts by Foundries and Lab by Null Rod??

I found this deck to be very strong against anything i played against (full-powered T1 Welder, Atog, Keeper, all Aggro (including Sui and Madness), Belcher, only Landstill ive not played against.

I haven't lost a single game.

Now I would appeciate your comments and suggestions how to improve it.
The main deck is constructed to work well against all control and Combo but some elements provide potential against Aggro and atrifact-decks.
The SB is built to beat all aggro down what also works very well.


The list:

1 Library o. A.
4 Tropical Island
4 Undergroud Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory    ---->can also block under Crucible each round

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction

2 Morphling        ---> against Control better then Exalted

1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
4 Duress               ---->always good against Control and Combo

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Regrowth

2 Pernicious Deed


1 Crucible of Worlds          ----->more in SB, e.g. against Landstill and 4c


The SB:

4 Oath of Druids
1 Akroma
1 Exalted Angel
2 Gaea's Blessing ------>side in against all Aggro

2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Arcane Laboratory    ---->against Tendrils and Affinity
2 Tormod's Crypt        ---->against Dragon,Reanimator and Atog

What can I improve?
Can I enhance my disruption potential vs. control even more?

What I thought about was:

-Diabolic Edict, for a tinkered DS Colossus or an early Welder, but Deed seems to be better (but slower)
-more Manlands (but I need all colored mana)
-Holistic Wisdom (is extremely powerful when i get Ancestral played but 2 green is often not pissible, at first I have to fetch for Underground Sea for Duress and other cards.....)

@Timewalker: Where is this Oath thread i cant find it?


I want for sure a deck WITH Oath in it no matter what you say about it.
It works extremely well and apart from the 4 Oath cards its a completely normal Keeper so come on if this deck cant handle a Problem Keeper also cant.....

Against all control decks (WITHOUT CREATURES, normal Keeper MUST play a creature to win) I have either to hardcast them or forcing them to have creatures.
And for this i will put in the Questing Pheldagriff.
It is a very strong creature in Oath, against normal Aggro its a not so good creature, i could imagine better ones because i WILL Oath but against any non-creature control decks it is very good.

Apart from this I have Funeral Pyre in my SB.

Some Manlands main, this all should be enough.

I am not saying its the best deck in the world now , maybe it is....  <--honour over me but its very strong against all Aggro and the Vs-Control-Problems should be solved the best a Keeper can.

So dont tell me about the weaknesses of Oath in every fuc*ing case but give me hints how to improve it!
Not all theory, some real hints please!

Decklist actualized

Ok, so what would be your suggestions against these decks??

More Manlands? Only Psychatog as creature? Or Angel? Acrane Laboratory vs Tendrils? Questing Pheldagriff as the main creature?

Other hints?

double post, sorry

Tog: He has no trample i will block it.
        Ok you can say Cunning Wish for berserk but then I can say   "Counterspell" its an endless game. Or Swords. There are some things I can do about this.


Against Belcher : Counter the Belcher maybe ?   Or use his Welders for my Oath. Stifle SB?

Draw 7: Feldons Cane? Counterspells?

Dragon: Counterspells, Tormods Crypt and Maybe playing some Duress.

TPS: ????lol, counter the Tendrils? Use Angel to get more then 20 life?

Dont want to sound arrogant but this deck can provide a lot of answers imo

The Manlands are THE idea ive looked for !! Hit like in Landstill and no creatures to block them.....

Standstill could also work well!

But i dont really get the problems you are talking about.
When I put in the Manlands and my enemy plays Tog-Deck, its fine, I can beat him or he plays Tog and i can Oath.

Fish: Youre joking? If he plays his creatures i can Oath and maybe drop Balance or Deed.
Madness: Oathing for sure.

Aggro is not my threat my threat are mostly controlish decks like Keeper and Lanstill and Decks like Affinity.
But against all these types Oath is good imo.

Why should Landstill counter Oath??

Please give me some real situations in which my strategy could be bad!!!
I dont see real problems for this deck because against all Aggro dropping an early Oath IS the way to go and against more controlish decks the strategy also (could, if i draw no bul*sh*t) pay off because the enemy MUST drop a creature to win , if not i can manland him.....

Colossus reshuffles that did I mean.

vs. Control I think my deck has good chances because its nearly like a normal keepr with some modifications so this will be a mirror match. Side out Colossus and Oaths, REB in (i can add it to SB) and a few StoPs.....
Why should my matchup be bad, explain me that!

I dont play on tournaments I want to build a deck which has good matchup against most number of decks.
And against aggro its very good (Madness, TnT, WelderDecks etc.) the only problematic decks are like Masque (have to counter the Mask or Disenchant or Deed it), Landstill (Side Web in) and Control (which is a mirror nearly).

And even Control plays creatures so Oath is not not useful.....

And BTW each Atog deck has the same problems like Swords, Edicts or something. Dont know why Atog decks dont play Oath......

Its a blast against Aggro and the grave is full.....

Funeral Pyre is a good Idea.

The Strip mine and Kor Haven could improve my matchup vs. Control (kill Library, stop manlands or fatties)

And the problems in the mirror match can be resolved by putting out the Oaths vs. Landstill and vs. Normal control they can stay inside.....the normal Keeper plays Decree or Exalted and that will make me Oath.

I played a few times with the deck (maybe 15 or 20 games) and it is very well also against Landstill (with Tsabos Web and more StoP from the SB out in).

Most unsure i am about the creaturebase but what i will definitely NOT go for is only Colossus because then I have to rely too much on my Oath.

Morphling is very good against control (StoP), Colossus vs. decks with Diabolic Edict and Angel can save my ass.

Maybe I throw the Tog out, i dont like him too much anyway mostly when i cant Oath my grave will be too empty to make him a real killer.

Decklist modified.

What is to say against the Oath?
It gives me the creature I want very fast and without paying a casting cost (if the enemy casts creatures).
I have Mana Free for other things like countering.

So it makes the deck much more effective against Aggro.

And the full grave (through Oath) makes my Atog a real killer

What can I improve in this deck?
What do you think about its strategy? I think especially vs Aggro it is very strong , the sort of decks of which most control habe problems with.....

Its basically a Keeper with a few Oath elements what should solve the big Problems against all Aggro decks (apart from Affinity but i have a sideboard)

The biggest problems are against no-creature control decks, so I have to focus on this. So Put in mandlands, Questing Pheldas to trigger my Oath, Morphling against StoP.

I put in only hard-castable creatures to be able to go against control without Oathing.


4 City of Brass
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Gemstone Mine

1 Strip Mine
1 Library
3 Mishra's Factory

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet ---->26 Mana

4 Oath of Druids

4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Skeletal Scrying

1 Mind Twist

1 Gaeas Blessing

1 Cunning Wish

1 Yawgmoths Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Pernicious Deed

2 Questing Pheldagriff
1 Exalted Angel
1 Morphling


SB:

1 Stifle
1 Funeral Pyre
1 Counterspell
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Berserk
1 Hurkyls Recall
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Disenchant
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Null Rod

What about Mirri's Guile? Fetchies, Matron can shuffle Library.....

Jep, it helps digging and can help you kill 1 turn earlier because you can sacrifice the Recruiter and draw the stacked Ringleader the same turn you stacked.

You will more likely get the Food Chain and the combo can be played in a lighter version with Prospector and Skullclamp out (sacrifice eqiuped Goblin->get 1 Mana->equip again, sacrifice->get 1 Mana......)

My current decklist:


4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Goblin Matron

2 Skullclamp

4 Food Chain

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Chrome Mox
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
6 Mountain

Please explain me why Shaprshooter should be in a FCG I dont get it.
It only untaps when a creature goes into grave from play.
It doesnt kill creatures with more toughness then 1, sure there are some tricks like blocking, own creature dies, sharpshooter untaps so you can do 2 additional damage.... (2 from sshooter) but why should I run them over Incinerator or SGC????
SGC does the job much faster when there is a moat.

I have never needed the Sharpshooter....

Against which deck should he be good? Elves? Dragon?

--->What do you mean by "it is not as strong as other aggro."

Hi nantuko

thanks for your reply.

I think your points make sense (changes in the deck).
Wheel of Fortune is considered as the 5th Ringleader you are right it is a card risky to play but it has (in the few games i tested the deck, i am not a tournament player) worked very nice because:

-if you have some power in the starting hand just put it out and play Wheel in the first round refreshing your hand
-if you cast an early Recruiter but dont have Food Chain out the Wheel helps you to get a full hand of goblins which can be game
-If the enemy has played some turns and tutored a bit you can guess that he tries to get the important cards in his hand to be played in lategame so if you cast WoF the right time he will be very confused with his random refreshed hand

I think this card works fine in the deck and also provides some control.

The SCG are extremely nice if the come by lackeying but how often does this happen....the StP kills the Lackey and I have a cc5 creature to hardcast in my hand.
2 is the maximum for me. You can also put out a Ringleader by Lackey which is also a good thing....

If people are afraid of Moat so the SGC should do it. I dont really understand why Sharpshooter should be an anti-Maot card (it doesnt untap without the SGC or the Prospectors.....)

I think that FCG without the Chain out is worse than the normal aggro decks because it lacks of DD and the creatures arent as powerful as in a normal Gobbo Deck. Sure, the Ringleaders and Recruiters provide some power, refill the hand etc. but its a bit slower than the normal aggros.
The creatures are simply weaker.

When Food Chain doesnt come out a deck with Goblin Grenade, 2/1 goblins, Lightning Bolt, Vandals etc. will win the game, i remember that a goblin deck like this made place 1 in a recent tournament in Germany.......

What is "the "mini-combo" with Prospector and no Food Chain out" ?

Hei, this is my current FCG:

4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Goblin Matron                  --> 29 Gobbos

1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Food Chain                      --->5 Other

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Chrome Mox
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Ancient Tomb
6 Mountain                          ---->26 Mana


I would like to discuss some cards to make it more effective, especially to make it not depend too much on the combo.
I know, FCG isnt dependant on the combo, but if the combo doesnt resolve it is actually not as strong as other aggro decks imo.

1.Is the Sharpshooter really necessary ? Why not replace him with a 3rd Incinerator?
2.Why 2 SGC? Isnt 1 enough?

3.What could i do to make the deck faster (which would mean more cheaper creatures and less expensive?

4.Would you play Aggro gobbos like Goon or this "2/1 changes controller if blocks or is blocked" goblin? Or even Mogg Fanatic?

Vandals?