Chalice on 0 or 1 seems pretty rough, as does an opposing Rod. Have you found it difficult to hit Rebuild mana when cut off from artifact sources?

@ArtOvWar -- Dude, you are wrong on a couple key points:

1. Tinker--> Inkwell is NOT the best plan vs. Shops and perhaps not against the field. Ever heard of a little card called Tangle Wire? Smokestack? both those cards have a way of laughing at one huge, dumb dude. There's a new piece of tech out there called Myr Battlesphere. I think it is far superior to other options at the moment.

2. TPS only beats Espresso Stax better than Gush-Storm could and I'm not even convinced of that. You see, many GOOD MUD lists run Null Rod. TPS runs FULL accelerators in the form of Moxen, + Sol Ring, + Crypt, + Vault + Jar and sometimes even + 1 Top. You do the math. Gush-Storm is a totally different animal than it was 3 years ago because it does not have access to unrestricted Scroll or Brainstorm so the skimping on mana is less and the playstyle is less aggressive. I am convinced that Gush-Storm is a better version of Storm than TPS atm despite TPS's wealth of basic lands because Gush-Storm often has the RIGHT answers for the RIGHT situations. Trust me, 2-3 basic lands is fine vs. MUD. If you are forced to go for more than that to "wait it out until you can cast hurkyl's" well then. . . you lost already and the extra basics would not have mattered. Trust me, I'm not sure who you are, but I have extensive experience piloting Storm and I especially piloting it vs. Shops so I know EXACTLY what the Storm pilot must be able to do to win. There are always the nut hands that MUD will draw on the play that are unbeatable, but I am referring to those games that are close where leveraging the proper advantages = game win and poor deck design = game loss. IMO TPS isn't the best deck design to foil modern MUD.

-Storm

As I see you dislike the list, though your arguments are just too empty. We all know how good is TPS, in some enviroments, and we all know that this list, and even TPS or any other storm combo oriented deck, will suffer the rage of MUD badly. This doesn' t mean the list doesn't work. Back up plan? Are you talking about a tinker + robot plan? Tinker + Bot is too bad in certain metagames, I mean in a field with lots of control, combo or combo/control decks tinker bot sucks, and if played it should be in the sideboard in such situation. Nevertheless your opinion is as good as anyone's else, but I can asure you it is not the universal truth, and this is what it seems that you think by the way you explain it.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. politeness is always appreciatted.

This thread is filled up with harsh opinions how certain builds have to look like. I would say this thread is about creating a competetive Gush-Storm list and everone should be open to any suggestions. Why not think about Lotus Cobra for example? Like Ritual its a mana enabler that could certainly fit into a deck which is created around a land based draw engine. Compared to Ritual its worse in that sense, that it just functions in combination with other cards (lands) and costs one mana more. On the other side, it beats and so reduces the needed storm copies, sticks around for more extra mana and doesent care about the common Spell Pierces. I haven't tested it in a storm deck, but I see enough points to be open minded for its inclusion.

It puzzles me that nobody has started a thread in this forum with a deck like this afther the latter Gush Unrestriction. This is why I decided to post my idea so we can discuss about it. I know we miss Brainstorm, Ponder and even Merchant Scroll, but even without those pieces the decks seems pretty solid.

NOTE: I call it TPTS, because we already have TPS amd TTS (which was the former list with full set of Brainstorms and Ponders).

"The Perfect Tropical Storm"

Maindeck 60

4x Force of Will
4x Duress

4x Gush
4x Preordain
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Demonic tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal

1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Necropotence
1x Doomsday
1x Yawgmoth’s Will
1x Timetwister

1x Hurkyl' s Recall
1x Chain of Vapor

4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Fastbond

2x Tendrils of Agony

1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Lotus Petal
1x Black Lotus

2x Island
1x Tropical Island
4x Undeground Sea
2x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard 15

1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Nature’s Claim
1x Hurkyl’s Recall
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ravenous Trap
2x nihil Spellbomb
2x Yixlid Jailer

What I think is that you are including jace and cobra in any deck. These cards are not made for ritual combo, they work perfect in other decks, but playing them here is ridiculous. You are not taking their full power, because of the cards you play with them. Is like playing a zoo creature base with fact or fiction and the full moxen.

A hand with 2 rituals, a jace and a cobra can be an example of what I mean. This is an instant mulligan you have ate least 2 dead cards no matter where your line of play goes. If you play with the cobra and jace gameplan, you have 2 dead rituals in your hand. If you play with the explosiveness of the rituals, jace and cobra have nothing to do there.

A deck cannot be created just by having all the good cards, they should work together, should have sinergy.

And people wonder why TheManaDrain.com is now looked at as a joke?  Two years ago, Marske would be put on Restricted posting for this, now it's just a Joke?


TMD = a Joke.

5 mana Time stretch ... Solid play *cough*

How's think twice? Maybe too slow but a nice setup with Intuition and PA in the field

I thought of this, but figured it wasn't worth it since you need 2x Call to Mind. Getting two with regularity probably means running a full 4, which kinda sucks.

As a MUD player for many years, I'm honestly more worried about cards like R&R and Grudge than E.Flux.  Seeing as how Tangles are all around, you CAN'T respond to Tanglewire trigger by casting E.Flux, you CAN however respond with the instant speed R&R and take out 2 threats.  By the way, some select MUD players still run Metalworker who bitchslaps Energy Flux all night long.  I find it hard to trump instant speed removal.

Maybe Debbie Downer can offer more constructive advice than this?

It does seem like this is the most unlikely Tinker deck ever though.  Personally I would have stuck with green for Hull Breach and/or Claim maindeck and the AWESOME anti-MUD card Artifact Mutation for sb.  Tin Street Hooligan is also worthy.

It's odd you run Memory Jar (Tinker target, I know) and not Wheel of Fortune.  Same cc, just saying.  Also I think a 2/2 Fireblast and Shrapnel Blast split is sufficient.  They are kinda 'closer' cards that require precious resources you can't afford to squander early game so you don't really want to see them that often.

If you do stick with blue, you have better and cheaper options than Flux.  Try Chain/Hurks/Rebuild.  Note that Chain of Vapor has more applications.
 
Good luck,
Mike

$$$, of course.  Underground Sea is up to what now, $80?  Shocklands are a totally acceptable budget alternative.

Seriously, the shocklands are not that bad.  I've only got a singleton of some critical dual lands, like Tropical Island and Underground Sea, and I make up the difference in my deck with Shocklands.  I don't think the shock damage has ever made a difference.  Having a singleton to fetch up with your fetchlands is crucial, so that you can avoid damage in most matches, but by the time you need to fetch your second dual, having a shockland is hella better than not having the second dual at all.

NINJA EDIT : I understand your point; that the OP should run basics after his full set of duals.  That's very true.  But it's not the Shockland's fault, is what I'm sayin.

And one comment on the sideboard: E-Flux is a good tool against MUD, but may hurt you as well. Rack and Ruin costs the same and in most cases has the same impact on the game, if not better.

ok, you pile up ancestral, time walk, shelldock, research, emrakul?

cast doomsday (bbb)
cast repeal (u)
cast ancestral (u)
play shelldock, tapped (land drop)  (library is empty)
cast timewalk (1u)
cast research (gu) (library now has positive cards)
take extra turn
put emrakul into play using shelldock
replay time walk using say, regrowth from the sideboard?
take extra turn
attack with emrakul
win?

seems like there's too much time between playing shelldock and attacking with emrakul.  I don't think shelldocking emrakul into play counts as "casting" emrakul so he doesn't timewalk himself.

I agree, I am saying while you proved to me how Chalice is not good against a storm based deck, isn't it still effective at 0 against Tezz, The Deck, stax, *insert other common vintage archetype that utilizes multiple moxes or lotus*?

While I see the unfavorable use of chalice against TPS or Drain Tendrils, wouldn't it still be good against other decks like Tezz?  Are they sideboard material at least?

Ah the issue between 3 or 4.  Its more of an irony situation.  When I play 4 of them, I seem to topdeck the chalices or rods all the time, I thought by reducing them to 3, I would still draw them witha lot of frequency, but not have multiple just sitting in my hand (when any other card in the deck would be more useful).  I'm sure you understand the issue at hand.  Also, no one seems to be running chalice anymore, do you know why?

Has anyone tested the Time Vault / Voltaic Key combo in TPS?

I was initially attracted to TPS combo decks because the card quality is so high.  To quote Mike Flores, "The best decks play the best cards," and one of the best two card combos in Vintage right now is Time Vault + Key.  Given the number and quality of Tutors in TPS, it seems like drawing any pair of these cards can be converted to a win in many situations:

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Tinker
Gifts Ungiven (for 3 tutors + Ancestral)
Time Vault
Voltaic Key

That's any pair of 9 cards-- more if you're running Grim Tutor(s).

I particularly liked this diagram in smmenen's article on playing TPS: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16330_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Winning_With_TPS.html  The point being that there are many engines in the deck which all feed into Yawgmoth's Will and eventually Tendrils.  On the surface, adding another game winning engine seems good, because it diversifies the kind of attacks the opponent must react to.  It's also nice having a win condition that works with a low storm count, and it can win games in do-or-die situations where Tinkering for Sphinx is a turn too slow.

But I recognize that diversity comes with a price.  You can't strengthen one engine without weakening another, and drawing just a Time Vault or just a Voltaic Key in isolation will always be worse than whatever card would alternatively be in that slot.  Time Vault is as much a dead draw as Sphinx.  Voltaic Key is another Sol Ring if you've drawn Mana Vault.  If only have Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, then the Key is an off color mox.  And other than that, it's a dead draw too.  I suppose it can wash your black mana into blue if you have a Mox Sapphire out, but that's not really a selling point.

I'm not familiar enough with the deck to suggest what two cards to cut to test this out.  I don't think there's room in any build running Dark Confidant.  For those without him, perhaps cut a land down to 13 and a Cabal Ritual?  Something like this:


1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
4 Dark Ritual

1 Time Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind