Sligh help needed ..:)

[doctrellor]

Now -- I know Sligh is not considered viable in T1 -- but definately taken seriously in T1.5  .... but I am one of those old dinosaurs who refuses to let a decktype go to the scrapheap .. lol

Metagame concerns:
1) Lots of Blue Bulls**t
2) MBC
3) Elves -- agrro/control
4) BW Control

* Tons of graveyard tweaks; which is why I use Leyline of the Void, or Tormods Crypt ..

Deck

12 Mountains
4 Woodfoothilsl -- Fetchlands
4 Barbarian Rings -- dont like these -- will change to Sol Ring, Ruby Mox, Lotus Petal, Lotus

4 Grim Lavamancers -- use these to clear stuff out of yard and take care of critters, Xtra dam
4 Goblin Guides -- 2/2 w/ haste for  , awesomely fast when out early.
4 Gorilla Shaman - Gotta deal with artifacts/moxen, etc
4 Keldon Marauders - I use thier 1 pt pings for critter removal ..since these 3/3's don't last long usually
4 Kiln Fiends -- AWESOME when casting bolts early -- easy to make then 7/2 or 10/2 -- these are becoming my main beat-stick.

4 Lava Spike -- good for fast dam
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast -- devestating when casting this with bolts and a Kiln fiend ready to strike ..
4 Rift Bolts -- I usually let these sit for a free cast the next turn

Options that I am looking at
1) Price of Progress -- definately looked upon
2) Searing Blaze - not sure here
3) Ankh of Mishra
3) Cursed Scroll - seems outdated at this point
4) Tweaking mana base -- mana curve seems okay -- but 20 mana should be solid

Pros
1) Fast burn damage without a "combo" at all in the deck
2) good critter removal and steady critter damage
3) Artifact removal
4) Good Mana curve

Unknowns
1) Card advantage (top-decking, no draw engine)
2) Disruption (either force opponents to change/alter plans)

Playtesting (so far)

MBC, Black Sui -- even with the new Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths combo, I am having few problems at all.
Berserk Stompy - going 50/50 due to the sick speed of that deck
FCG/Goblins - when Foodchains goes off, not much I can do, otherwise pretty good matchups
Belcher - 50/50 but when the combo goes off, it gets ugly.

I will try and playtest against some BBS, BW Control, etc so see how I do vs control -- I seem to do well vs Aggro, but Combo seems to mess me up if done fast/early. Control, I dunno yet -- but one can sideboard for most control.

[Bone]

4 Barbarian Rings -- dont like these -- will change to Sol Ring, Ruby Mox, Lotus Petal, Lotus

You DON'T need Sol Ring in this deck.
Why no Wasteland/Strip Mine?

It looks like your metagame is unpowered. Perhaps cut the Mox Monkey (Gorilla Shaman) to 1-2?
Smash to Smitherens is nice as a 4-of in the board.

4 Keldon Marauders - I use thier 1 pt pings for critter removal ..since these 3/3's don't last long usually

- That's kinda hard to do since it says "1 damage to target PLAYER"

If you want more speed then Simian Spirit Guide could help. Blasts (Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast) could be played maindeck in vintage. Riccochet Trap is also nice. I would include Pyrostatic Pillar in the board. And Null Rod could be considered (MD or SB). Sudden Shock and Thorn of Amethyst can be looked at.

[doctrellor]

4 Barbarian Rings -- dont like these -- will change to Sol Ring, Ruby Mox, Lotus Petal, Lotus

You DON'T need Sol Ring in this deck.
Why no Wasteland/Strip Mine?

It looks like your metagame is unpowered. Perhaps cut the Mox Monkey (Gorilla Shaman) to 1-2?
Smash to Smitherens is nice as a 4-of in the board.

4 Keldon Marauders - I use thier 1 pt pings for critter removal ..since these 3/3's don't last long usually

- That's kinda hard to do since it says "1 damage to target PLAYER"

If you want more speed then Simian Spirit Guide could help. Blasts (Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast) could be played maindeck in vintage. Riccochet Trap is also nice. I would include Pyrostatic Pillar in the board. And Null Rod could be considered (MD or SB). Sudden Shock and Thorn of Amethyst can be looked at.

1) Yeah, I have the 5 (4 wastelands, 1 Strip). Since a lot of the meta is mono-colored, sinkholes are more useful than wastelands..
2) True -- it's non-powered ..
3) I have Spirit Guides, but over the time I've played them, I just haven't really been happy with using them - The idea fot them is good -- just like the ESG (fast mana).
4) Null Rods I took out because of the mox monkeys. Pyros/REB's are SB stuff -- don't have any Thorns: Thx for the ideas there.
5) Ah Damn -- didn't see that on Keldons -- stupid me

Yeah, but the meta here being fairly mono-color and non-powered. I could see the Smash to Smithereens being used. But even then I am depending on artifact use to keep them MD instead of SB. And instead of Mox monkeys, I could use Gob Vandals or Rack n Ruin ... so several choices that could be viable if artifacts were a bigger issue.

[swawagon]

Hellspark Elemental will do 3 damage now and 6 total, better than Keldon Marauders who do only 1 now and 5 total.

Flame Rift does 4 damage for 2 mana.

Price of Progress in many games, can be amazing. In the main or SB somewhere 4 belong here.

I would avoid Lotus Petal and yes Sol Ring is useless here. A similar list does not even include Black Lotus. Your spells mana curve is very low, but your mana count is also low. You want solid reusable mana, not short bursts of it.

Smash to Smitherens in the SB or some in the main are indeed excellent.

For some protection, I'd consider splashing Black for Duress, or Thoughtseize, or Inquisition of Kozilek and perhaps Blightning. Use those discard spells to remove their busted plays, thus giving you more untap, draw, and attack steps.

If your meta consists of Blue Bull#### as you describe, consider Sirocco: 1R, Instant. Target player reveals his or her hand. For each blue instant card revealed this way, that player discards that card unless he or she pays 4 life.

[doctrellor]

Thx for the reply ..

PoP & Smash to Smithereens indeed are good. The PoP's require non-basics, and the meta is mostly mono-colored, so fetchlands are instantly used .. Smash to Smithereens require artifacts, not used enough to make it an auto-MD choice.

I should just take out the barb rings and stick to mountains then .. so 16 Mts, 4 Fetchs -- (seems like a lot of Mts for my low mana curve -- I might try 14 Mts + 4 Fetch instead and see if it makes a difference.)

between the UW counter-lock decks, and the UW Fish decks -- Sirrocco might be a fun addition. Those counters are a pain.

A Black splash -- The duress/thoughtseize/blightning idea is cool [4 Fetch, 4 Badlands, 12 Mnt]
A Green splash -- Berserk or Vexing Shusher .. hmmm [4 Fetch, 4 Taiga, 12 Mnt]

The worry I have with splashes are the dual-lands being wasteland targets. And needing a higher mana base -- usually 22 instead of 18-20.

[TopSecret]

Hell's Thunder might be good against MBC (mono black control?), Blue Bull****, and BW Control. Same goes for Hellspark Elemental.

If there's a lot of graveyard shenanigans, maindecking Relic of Progenitus might be decent since it cycles. Relic can also help against Tarmogoyf.

Another idea is to add more fetches and play Plated Geopede and Zektar Shrine Expedition. This would also allow Searing Blaze, which would be good if creature decks were common.

If elves are an issue, maindeck Lava Dart and/or Volcanic Spray are decent. Same goes for Engineered Explosives, which blows up Moxen.

Maindeck Manamorphose may help Kiln Fiend (and Engineered Explosives if you play any). Same Goes for Lavadart and Volcanic Spray.

If aggro control and/or large creatures are a problem, Basilisk Collar is totally nuts with Grim Lavamancer and Kiln Fiend.

[doctrellor]

Searing Blaze, which would be good if creature decks were common.

If elves are an issue, Engineered Explosives.

Maindeck Manamorphose may help Kiln Fiend

True on all 3 counts.

I like Manamorphose -- spending 1 / and getting those mana back -- essentially it's a free instant to draw a card -- thus card advantage and a "draw" engine .. so the synergy with helping the deck -- and pumping kiln fiends -- yeah.

[TheShop]

MonoBlue Bullshit-
sirocco? (the suprised factor is my fav part)
Reb
pyro
active volcano
mono black-
gorilla tactics makes this even worse of a matchup for them
goblins/stompy:
ouch, they are faster than you and some of their dudes are out of bolt range.
Breaking point is good
if they are small enough, bloodfire dwarf works(more for elves)
or splash white for tividar's crusade and path to exile.(and balance)

[doctrellor]

MonoBlue Bullshit-
sirocco? (the suprised factor is my fav part)
Reb
pyro
active volcano

mono black-
gorilla tactics makes this even worse of a matchup for them

goblins/stompy:
ouch, they are faster than you and some of their dudes are out of bolt range.
Breaking point is good
if they are small enough, bloodfire dwarf works(more for elves)
or splash white for tividar's crusade and path to exile.(and balance)

Yeah, I have Pyro's, REB in SB. thx for the heads up on Guerrilla Tactic. Breaking point does look good -- thx.

a splash of white -- Balance, Disenchant, StP's .... hmmm

[madmanmike25]

I think the best artifact destruction spell for mono red is Shattering Spree.

Also Magus of the Moon is a beating, but usually you use Spirit Guides to get him in play early.

[doctrellor]

For my mono-red angle (although -- splashes do look good) ... Looked at the 16 Mnt+4 Fetch vs 14 Mnt+4 Fetch.

With my 1cc, 2cc and 0cc (Fireblast, Riftbolt) I had an average of 1cc for the deck -- basically -- it's fast as it should be. So I wanted to see if I could take a risk and go with less land (due to sac by Fireblast).

I would say it runs smoother with the 2 less land* -- since one can run essentially 2 or 3 mana and be fine -- I playtested and got wins with 1 land (due to Riftbolts in opening hand). Since I am running straight Mnts, Wastelands are neutered and "dead cards" -- Fireblast is more critical for timing with less land though. I try and make sure I have 2 lands in hand (so the Kiln Fiends come out and can become my beat sticks for the wins)

Now people will ask -- why do I run with the 2 less land -- I decided on PoP's (so I am not so dependant on Mox Monkeys in case somebody does a combo in turn 1 or 2 and now have a big ass beat stick breathing down my throat.). I am still messing with my last critter slot -- The Keldons looks good, but still tweaking -- just in case.

So .. for my mono-red

14 Mountains
4 Wooded foothills -- Fetchlands

4 Grim Lavamancers -- use these to clear stuff out of yard and take care of critters, Xtra dam
4 Goblin Guides -- 2/2 w/ haste for  , awesomely fast when out early.
4 Gorilla Shaman - Gotta deal with artifacts/moxen, etc
4 Kiln Fiends -- AWESOME when casting bolts early -- easy to make then 7/2 or 10/2 -- these are becoming my main beat-stick.
4 [Something]

4 Lava Spike -- good for fast dam
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast -- devestating when casting this with bolts and a Kiln fiend ready to strike ..
4 Rift Bolts -- I usually let these sit for a free cast the next turn
2 Price of Progress - just in case a combo'd BIG artifact comes out (say from a Tinker combo)

[doctrellor]

I think the best artifact destruction spell for mono red is Shattering Spree.

Also Magus of the Moon is a beating, but usually you use Spirit Guides to get him in play early.

Hmm -- shattering spree looks like shatterstorm -- hmmm -- ok, cool.

Magus wrks well when non-basics are common. The meta I am around is more more mono-colored area. For regular T1, yeah, Magus would rock ..

[Lurker101]

What about Skullclamp elemental package? It provides a decent draw/damage engine.
4 Skullclamp
4 Spark Elemental
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Ball Lightning
Just clamp the elementals during your post-combat mainphase.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since this is vintage, strongly consider Mogg Fanatic as an extra answer to dredge.

[doctrellor]

What about Skullclamp elemental package? It provides a decent draw/damage engine.
4 Skullclamp
4 Spark Elemental
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Ball Lightning
Just clamp the elementals during your post-combat mainphase.

Skullclamps in Sligh? -- hmm, not sure -- since SLigh/Burn is essentially a race and you NEED that win by turn 4 or 5 on the outside. I can see Clamp slowing down a Sligh deck essentially ..

For Black Sui -- people swear by using Skullclamps with Bloodghasts -- but that's Sui (another favorite archtype of mine)

[doctrellor]

Since this is vintage, strongly consider Mogg Fanatic as an extra answer to dredge.

Yeah I have used Moggs in my Sligh deck for years!!! -- that 1pt sac damage is great for killing those annoying critters -- say a confidant .. lol

But sligh needs more of a punch -- which is why the Grim Lavamancers are so useful for thier 2 damage. Also Moggs are generally being replaced by Goblin Guides  2/2 with HASTE .. awesome ability for a 1cc critter. There are discussions around the internet where people are loathe to change out thier Moggs, so some swear by them, others are changing over -- so the debate still rages on the Moggs.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The point of Fanatic isn't the damage. 

It does three *key* things:
1) It dies on demand, taking Dredge critters and Bridges with it.  It even knocks out the Bridges BEFORE the damage resolves.
2) It kills Confidant and Welder with no additional mana needed or any other requirement.
3) It kills Tezzeret by first attacking and then saccing.

It's a removal spell for key pieces of "better" decks.  No vintage sligh deck will ever be fast enough without disruption.

[swawagon]

Mogg Fanatic may also block huge non-trampling critters (such as a Tinkered in Sundering Titan or a huge Tarmogoyf) to prevent huge chunks of damage — and still do one point of damage after declaring the block.

[Lurker101]

Mogg Fanatic may also block huge non-trampling critters (such as a Tinkered in Sundering Titan or a huge Tarmogoyf) to prevent huge chunks of damage — and still do one point of damage after declaring the block.

Didn't M10 rules changes make that illegal?

[AmbivalentDuck]

No.  M10 rules made it so that Fanatic can no longer do damage in combat AND sac.  It can still block and sac before damage.

[doctrellor]

The point of Fanatic isn't the damage. 

It does three *key* things:
1) It dies on demand, taking Dredge critters and Bridges with it.  It even knocks out the Bridges BEFORE the damage resolves.
2) It kills Confidant and Welder with no additional mana needed or any other requirement.
3) It kills Tezzeret by first attacking and then saccing.

It's a removal spell for key pieces of "better" decks.  No vintage sligh deck will ever be fast enough without disruption.

True ... but one needs a bolt to hit Tez to bring him down to 1, and then the Mogg can attack n sac for that last point .. but yeah, Mogg is a wonderous little critter...

[InfectedMushroom]

He is referring to using Mogg Fanatic on Tezzeret after it has searched out a Time Vault.

[ArtOvWar]

Maybe its an idea to run something like this:

7 Fetch
13 Mountain
= 20

4 Fanatic
4 Gobo Guide
4 Mancer
4 Plated Geopede
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Mox Monkey
= 28

4 Lightning bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
= 12

Makes 60 cards MB

SB:
3 Viashino Heretic -> Vs staxx etc [wich you should easily race]
3 Needle --> Vs tv/Key combo.
3 Crypt -> Vs any gy based stuff
3 Null Rod --> Vs anything with anoyying artis like tezz or combo. Also insane with a mox monkey on the board
3 ReB/Pyro

[AmbivalentDuck]

Playing a Null Rod buys you a turn or two at best.  It cost you a turn's mana and a card to play.  Also, it's one of few spells in your deck that actually needs to be countered.  You're almost strictly better off with Pyrostatic Pillar or another card that creates pressure on your opponent's ability to win (despite their board position) with a low life total.

[the boogie man]

I know that in legacy, sligh splashed green for goyf and was much better because of it, so perhaps, that strategy could be employed here. Green would add claim to the s/b, and goyf to the main. Along with that, maybe a couple of berserks. they seem awesome with kiln fiend, and get around his main drawback, which I think is the chump block. lightning bolt, berserk means 17 damage total. and zerk on a goyf could be game-winning as well. It also has some kind of synergy with clamp if you decide to run it.

[doctrellor]

Playing a Null Rod buys you a turn or two at best.  It cost you a turn's mana and a card to play.  Also, it's one of few spells in your deck that actually needs to be countered.  You're almost strictly better off with Pyrostatic Pillar or another card that creates pressure on your opponent's ability to win (despite their board position) with a low life total.

With all I see and played against yesterday -- PoP, REB, Blood Moons were my best SB inserts. Hardly anybody used artifacts, so I generally had no need for Null rods, and even kept my mox monkeys out (although I sure wished I had those Monkeys MD when the tourney winner brought out his Jittes .. ). Pillar is MD -- and rarely gets SB'd out.

In yesterdays tourney -- my Fireblasts, Gob Guides and Grims were the keys to my wins.

[doctrellor]

I know that in legacy, sligh splashed green for goyf and was much better because of it,

The people here who play multi-colored sligh like RW -- and use Lynx with loads of fetchlands to boost lynx into a big beat stick -- the same way I use bolts to boost Kiln Feind.

So the people who used Wastelands -- they were all 'dead cards' as I was one of 2 who ran mono-colored. The other guy who ran single-color -- ran a weak MUD deck. Which is why PoP basically stayed in my MD most of the tournament.

[madmanmike25]

I almost forgot that this list was already running Kiln Fiends.  I have been doing minor testing with a mono-red list and so far Kiln fiend has quite a bit of potential. 

A card I am testing that has GREAT synergy with Fiend is Browbeat.  They either take 9 life to deny you 3 cards, or they take 4 life and you get to draw 3 cards.

Shattering Spree maindeck has also been pretty good for me.  Along with Chain light and Bolt, Lodestones are easy to kill.

Genju of the Spires is basically 3 mana to do 6 dmg.  If using on the turn you cast, its 4 mana.  Good against Oath too since its not a creature on their upkeep.  Reminds me of a recurring Ball Lightning without the trample.  There are plenty of ways to kill opposing creatures though.

Against control, Vexing Shusher is a very handy sb card.  Goblin Bombardment and Gargodon work well vs Oath.

I don't think including Fiend in mono-red is going to make it tier 1, but you definetly have the opportunity to sneak some wins in there.  Anyone want to bring back TMWA????

[NilsH]

Decks without p9 (moxen) usally plays more lands, which makes Ankh of Mishra more powerful, espesially if they pack fetches.

Also, Reckless Charge plays nicely with Kiln Fiend. You risk losing 2 cards for 1 card if your opponent has instant speed removal though. It maybe be jank, but it might be worth testing. 

[TheShop]

I never liked browbeat or wheel here because they are slow.  I did like the lava blister or whatever(1R destroy target nonbasic unless they take 6 dmg). I like that card in conjunction with:
4 smash to smithereens
4 chalice
4 rod
4 shrap blast

mana denial + disruption, or get burned in the face.  Most people will lose the early land, I will drop chalice/rod/or smash a mox at that point.

If it's an unpowered tourney, just max out damage and race them.  If they have power:  play mana denial + burn.