If we're specifically talking about Smokestack, Crucible gives you +1 permanent a turn, but uses your land drop, so if you have a handful of lands crucible doesn't really do anything, and a second Crucible never does. Drownyard Temple gives you +1 permanent whether or not you use a land drop, and with multiple Drownyards you could support a Smokestack at 2 without ever losing it, which Crucible doesn't let you do. That costs 6 mana, though, which is non-trivial.

I don't think that interaction makes Drownyard significantly better or anything.

Appreciate the kind words man definitely looking forward to linking to more of you stuff when the new site is up

I've been playing a bit with Jori En myself - I don't feel like I've found the right shell for the card (I've mostly been playing it in delver style decks which are super-tight on 3 drops), but it's been consistently pretty good in play, and easier to draw cards with than I initially expected.

wait wait wait .... Slash Panther won an event?

Quick note - Flipped Delver is NOT a horror, so this bounces it. Just a nitpick but I've actually heard three or four people say this already today, so it seems to be a common misconception

I don't think that difference makes the card critically better or worse though

This card is real promising I think. The Tarmogoyf comparison is apt, but I think it's important to remember that Tarmogoyf is smaller in vintage than it is in other formats, and probably would have seen a lot more play if it cost 1U instead of 1G. There's a lot of places you can reasonably slot this card into.

I also think you shouldn't overlook the 0/4 starting body - I think that could be very relevant in some of the decks you could put this in.

This thread has been really encouraging guys. Lots of great ideas for technical features, but also making it cheat that we have a pretty good understanding of the community issues we're going to face if we want the site to be something people are excited to use on a regular basis.

As a quick update, the prototype site is functional, but there are one or two features I want to iron out before taking it public. I can respond more directly to specific ideas if you want, but I love the community-driven approach we've been converging towards here.

Hey guys, just wanted to let everyone know that I've definitely been following this thread closely as I work on the new forum software behind the scenes. I've been getting lots of great suggestions, concerns, and offers of help both here and through email, facebook,etc.

I share your concerns about a rating system being potentially dangerous, and I know it's a bad thing to implement incorrectly - but I think there might be a fit for the boards that balances our concerns. I want to encourage and reward good posters, but I definitely don't want people using their rating or an upvote as a substitute for good discussion.

As far as I'm concerned, status quo is not an option - there are just too many vintage players and potential vintage players avoiding the site. So we're going to try some things, probably including some kind of voting, and definitely including the ability to flag a post even if it doesn't violate the stated rules. If it works the first time, awesome! But if it doesn't, we'll scrap it and try something else.

Posting this at the request of another user - I don't know anything about this event!

Xtreme Games
2082  E. Grand Ave
Lindenhurst, IL 60046

www.xtremegamesonline.com

These events will be run at a Competitive Level REL
Play/Draw rule will apply to top cut

10 Play Test Cards Allowed (see below for guidelines)
NO FAKE CARDS ALLOWED IN STORE


12:00-12:45 REG
1:00 START

$25 entry

PRIZES:


THESE ARE APPROXIMATE PAYOUTS (actual breakdown based on attendance)
TOP 8:
1ST PLACE 30%
2ND PLACE 20%
3RD PLACE 10%
4TH PLACE 10%
5TH - 8TH PLACE 5%

TOP 4:
1ST PLACE 40%
2ND PLACE 30%
3RD PLACE 10%
4TH PLACE 10%


Hope to see all of you there!
We also will be running a Booster Draft @ 3:30

BRING YOUR EDH DECKS!!

All play-test cards must follow these guidelines:

Please do not use the back of a magic card for a “play-test-card”

There are two types of acceptable play-test-cards. The first and most basic is taking a basic land card and writing the details of the card on it. The second method is to take a card that shares some of the characteristics with the card that is being play-tested and erase any characteristics that do not match, replacing them with the correct characteristics.

All play-test-cards must have the following text neatly printed, using a extra fine point sharpie. Ball point pens may not be used:
• The full name of the card (no abbreviations or nicknames)
• Correct casting cost of the card including all colored mana symbols
• All relevant/game effecting text

When choosing what card to use as the base for an erased play-test card player must follow these rules:
• The mana cost of the base spell must be the same as the card being used.
• The type of the card being used must be the same as the base card.
• The P/T of a creature being used must be the same as the base creature P/T
• When using a play-test card as a creature it may be difficult to find a creature where all characteristics match. In this case, mana cost is the most important, followed by the P/T, followed by the subtype. Any characteristics that do not match must be erased and corrected.
• The art box, card name, and text box must be totally erased. White out may not be used for this as it affects the stiffness of the card and may mark it.
• When adding text to the card do not use a ball point pen. A extra fine point sharpie is the best thing to use. A ball point pen can cause indentations on the card marking it.
• For clarity reasons, the use of cards with the new card frame is strongly encouraged


Though the playtest-card limit is set, none of the players care if you're over, as long as you made the effort.  Showing up with 75 poorly made playtest cards is unacceptable, but showing up with 20 or even 25 playtest cards that are well-done, nobody will complain about it

I've seen you run this in the MTGO Dailies, it can do some pretty crazy stuff.

Can you give some examples of sideboard plans you like right now? (cards in vs out and why)

What matchups have you been having the most trouble with?

I think the biggest problem with Mana Drain was the influx of cheaper counters a few years ago. Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce are all competing for the same space. Pyroblast, Duress, Mindbreak Trap are showing up more often in lists these days, too.

One big factor is that Gush decks like to operate on low mana counts, and don't need the colorless mana as much as old lists did, making Drain a lot less attractive than a one-drop. Drain is still a powerful card if you have a deck with free room at that mana cost, but that space is at a real premium these days.

For anyone who's planning on playing in this, WotC has released a statement that the Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest bug has been fixed - I haven't confirmed in-client, but I have no reason not to believe them. Everyone who made a last minute switch to Oath can safely reconsider now

Good luck everyone!

Been looking forward to this one - thanks for writing, as always!

You need access to all 4 of the Hedrons you're running to win (play, hand, graveyard, exile). That means by playing Inuition, you've already lost access to one. You would need Intuition + Force to Pitch + a Regrowth effect to get back the one you binned. This means you're relying on a 3 card combo that costs you four specific cards, 3UG, and a turn. I'm sure anyone who is creative enough to build a deck around Hedron Alignment can find a way to win with 3UG and less than FOUR specific cards, without waiting a turn (as a starting point, vault/key costs 4 mana and two specific cards, and loses to far less hate)

Seriously, if you've spent more than 10 minutes thinking about Hedron Alignment, there HAS to be something more intersting and broken and resiliant out there that you can figure out, even avoiding already-popular decks

A 4/4 + duress is no small thing, but let's be serious. You can't play this card off a Workshop, and Tangle Wire taps down your mana, too. To make the play you're talking about, you'd require a hand of "[Workshop/Tomb], Sphere, [Any Land], Tangle Wire, [Any Land], Black Lotus, Mana Vault, Thought-Knot Seer" ... This is not going to happen most games. If Thought-Knot is going to be good, it's not going to be in a list that expects to make those series of plays consistantly - because it's just not going to happen. We need a more realistic average opening sequence for the card to be playable.

But Narcomoeba is better than free, isn't it? Memnite is a 1/1 that costs 0 mana and a draw step, but Narco costs around 1/5th of draw step. I'm not sure they fill similar roles.  Keep in mind I'm saying this as someone who is literally playing a Memnite + Skullclamp deck in vintage right now.

Agreed, I haven't seen a weekend daily fail to fire for maybe half a year now? There was a lull around the time WotC changed prize support, but it's crawled back up since then.

I voted No, which is true, but maybe misleading? I'm fully powered, and there are reasonable vintage decks I could play without proxies, but I usually don't own the full 75 I want. If I had to play sanctioned I'm sure I'm within a few hundred of MOST lists I would want to play. ... However if the metagame was trashed because enough other players had to quit or switch to budget decks, I wouldn't want to play enough to justify spending anything.

About a week ago a friend of mine was trying to sell off cards, so I was rooting around trying to figure out what I was missing. I literally hunted around to see if you had written a checklist article last year, and was disappointed that you hadn't. I saw this post yesterday and I immediately bought a copy.

Sure, anyone's exact list of vintage deckbuilding stuff isn't going to be identical, but as a jumping off point, it was a huge timesaver. Thanks for putting this out there, Stephen!

I was a big fan of mtgo before the changes made (very possibly inspired by this open letter), and I'm still a big fan of it now. There are bugs, and the interface is tricky to learn, but the interface of live paper tournaments is also remarkably tricky to learn ... it'll just take some time to get used to.

There are plenty of reasons to avoid MTGO, but if you're on the fence I'd really recommend it. It's dramatically cheaper to get into than vintage (even at 5-10ish proxies), and there are regular tournaments every week.

If you have any more specific questions (what to watch out for, which cards to buy and how, how tournaments work) feel free to ask here, start a new thread, or send me a PM - I'll be happy to respond (and I'm sure some of the other MTGO regulars in this thread would be happy to, as well)

Dan Yarington (owner of Myriad games) was/is a pillar of the vintage, and general magic community. Not only did he build a thriving tournament scene for years and years, he was a deck innovator whose tech is still influencing the vintage metagame today. I have many fond memories of Myriad events, and met a lot of great players and friends there. I'm sad to see the store go, but I'm sure Dan is making the best move for him, and I'm glad he's doing so.

Myriad always made vintage players feel welcome, the staff was super friendly, (the bathrooms were crazy clean for a magic store), and I'll never forget some of the entries into the "best deck name" competitions!

You'll be missed, Myriad Games! I'll put on my Myriad Games T-Shirt and have a toast in your honor tonight!

Love the article. I've been playing some of these lists to some success - and others I haven't seen, but now really want to try out. Thanks for the insight!

I'll echo what ObstinateFamiliar said - the Strip/Waste is there for Shops matchups - basically where other people might run basics in their sideboard, TPS usually has a decent basic count, and Strip effects serve a similar function, while sometimes stealing a game against an unlucky draw.

It's not plan A against dredge by any means - but if you have other cards just doing nothing in the matchup (Thoughtseize and Defense Grid come to mind), it's not a bad card to bring in and fill that space.

That's just my interpretation, though - my understanding is that the 5 strip sideboard is an Adrian Becker innovation, I'd be happy to have him weigh in on the subject

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of games and matchups where you'd rather just be a pure TPS deck. I don't think adding Mentors really slows you down that much, but if you're playing in a field of Doomsday and Oath, Mentor would be a pretty bad call. It's just a tool in the toolbox, not a pure improvement/evolutionary step in any sense.

It's pretty straightforward. Mentor makes the deck slower, but also reduces the scope of cards that are good against you. I don't think anybody would argue that Mentor makes the deck faster in an opponent-less vacuum - but some cards an strategies slow down traditional storm cards and lose to Mentor. They may not lose the turn you play Mentor - but they still lose, which is quite a bit more important.

Just my take on the questions you raised (I'm sure there are a variety of opinions on these, though)

I can't speak for everyone, but Jar suffers a lot of the same problems that other Draw 7's do - unpredictability. Jar is powerful, but leaves a lot up to chance - different players have different amounts of risk-tolerance when going off, and Dark Petition allows an almost unprecedented amount of surety when going off (I guess 4 wish Long was comparable). When you go with tutors you leave nothing to chance, whereas Jar requires you not to whiff off seven. It's still very powerful though, and I wouldn't say it's incorrect to run it.

For me it's a clear yes. The one mana difference between GT and DP (assuming spell mastery) is a really good deal. Anecdotally, I used to like running Grim Tutor, but I never wanted to see more than one of them - when I switched to 1/2 DP's I found myself wanting to draw more. I'm not convinced 4 is the correct number in every list, though.

Mystical Tutor is sort of in a different boat. The topdeck tutors (Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal included) have always been weak against counters. Often their best use against a counter-heavy deck would be tutoring for a counter-resistant card - the key piece being Mind's Desire. The influx of new counters in the past few years has really weakened it - which has nothing to do with Dark Petition at all. Mental Misstep, of course, happily goes after Mysticals, but more importantly, the card you get with Mystical is less likely to resolve. The most important difference though, might be Flusterstorm. With Flusterstorm (and to a lesser extent, Mindbreak Trap) being particularly common right now, Mystical->Mind's Desire is nowhere near the haymaker it used to be against control decks - and decks are more controlling than ever. All of this applies to Vampiric Tutor too, and some of my lists have cut that as well - but they're both still powerful cards that still have a lot of value in some matchups.

This is likely a personal preference issue. For a while Colossus was pretty terrible - mostly because of Dack Fayden, but removal like Swords to Plowshares is at an all time high. These things seem to be backing off a little now, but we'll see how the meta shakes out. Personally I like to sideboard but not maindeck Colossus (when I'm not running a less traditional list like Mentor-TPS). The decision to run Colossus or not is also very affected by your choice to run Jar, when you're running one of those two, the cost to run the other one is a lot less (I've actually run tinker-colossus-jar all in the board before, and brought one or both in in different matchups)

I've heard some combo players refer to alternate wins like Colossus (or mentor) as "Training Wheels" (I've heard them say the same about Tendrils #2) - but I don't see it that way. It adds an orthogonal angle of attack that your opponent may have to split their resources to stop - I think it's worth playing with until you find out whether it fits your game plan smoothly, it's easy enough to cut later if you find yourself never getting it.

Short answer: Chain isn't very good against shops.

Hurkyl's Recall fills a very different role in the deck than Chain. Yes, Chain and Hurkyl's can both generate storm, but they're both first and foremost defensive cards. (If you seriously had nothing to remove, you'd be far better suited running more rituals or tutors or disruption than a storm generator). Hurkyl's is an anti-shops card, plain and simple ... likely the best available.

Chain of Vapor is more of a "catch-all" - but catch-all's are, by definition, not great against anything in particular. I wouldn't be running Chain of Vapor myself without some specific card that I'm afraid of - but depending on your list, you might have valid reasons to be afraid of, say, Leyline of Sanctity, or Stony Silence - which Chain is reasonable against (but personally I prefer other strategies to answer those cards).

The lists that are running 4 Hurkyls/0 Chain are reacting to the pre-chalice-restriction meta, where shops was considered by many to be the best deck choice, and was clearly the worst matchup for TPS. It's hard to say if that's still the case, with the post-chalice meta still unsettled. I think running the old 1 Hurkyl's/1 Chain maindeck might be more reasonable these days - but I absolutely would not assume that suddenly shops became a good matchup ... it's just a lot less common now.

Compared to other disruption, Defense Grid is real real real good against Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, Pyroblast and Mindbreak Trap. It is quite good (though not as good) against any other counter, like Force of Will, Mana Drain, Spell Pierce. It's bad against discard and mana denial, like Duress, Cabal Therapy, Null Rods. Whether 4 maindeck is correct or not is a function of your metagame - but I will say that there are definitely metagames where it is correct. If you're walking into a field of Delver, for instance, Defense Grids can make most of their deck look pretty silly.

Worth mentioning though, you can't just throw 4 defense grids in any list. It should be pretty obvious what works and doesn't work with Defense Grids, but you probably don't want to end up with say, 4 D-Grid and 4 Force and 4 Misstep in the same list. I'm sure you can figure out good replacements

Don't ask me! The meta is crazy in flux right now. I don't think anyone knows where things are going to settle yet. Depending on where they do, TPS could end up being a great choice or a terrible one. Personally I like aggressive decks in wide metas, so I think TPS, or other storm combo, is a fine choice right now.

hot!

Thanks! Though I have to say that most of this deck has been around for a while, if anything I made some very minor tweaks and rediscovered that's it's effective in the new meta. The Contested War Zone's are entirely Duane's tech, and I'm also looking forward to hearing how the worked out for him!

Funny, in my experience HateBears is one of the worse matchups for TPS - but that deck varies so much I guess it's hard to have any consistent data (and maybe I'm just not good at playing against it)

The only white sideboard cards I've tried that weren't anti-shops or anti-dredge are Containment Priest v Oath and Chant/Silence v storm combo.

I like the Priest v Oath plan, but Oath isn't exactly a bad matchup for storm, so that's no reason to run white by itself (though consider that the plan isn't "containment priest" but "containment priest + mentor", there's synergy there you can't look at in a vacuum)

Orim's Chant/Abeyance/Silence can be pretty brutal in storm mirrors, but lets' be serious: Storm mirrors don't happen too often. I wouldn't run them unless the meta changes dramatically.

I agree that Defense Grid is the critical card against Misstep/Fluster/MBT - not Mentor. I don't think there is any one matchup (besides HateBears, which is of dubious value, I guess), that Mentors dramatically improve the deck against. I do think it very slightly improves matchups across the board (except for against other combo decks), but my data now is pretty light.

I will only use basic lands that are the same basic lands I'm running in my deck.