I completely agree.

This is really just an observation and would probably more beneficial for legacy, but unlike jitte, the flail isnt legendary. Couple that with the fact that it makes double strikers like mirran crusader and boros swiftblade bonkers, flail *could* be considered as a four of to supplement a big damage beats deck. Throw in massive amounts of accel, some other synergies, and you have the possibility of straight aggro in eternal magic.

This is of course highly unlikely but brainstorming never hurt anyone.

this seems like it could benefit from a tendrils or empty the warrens. Otherwise you could just toss in the time vault combo.

maybe have two tinker bots instead of just one considering the use of all your recursion spells. Maybe have the second bot be a bit cheaper so that when things go wrong you can just cast him and beat face with a bob and mage along side.

I find that for more casual, non powered metas, painter can be amazingly good. If you really have trouble with racing aggro of all decks, run some simian spirit guides to make up for the lack of moxen, its really not that big of a deal when your dealing with zoo. Maybe run some sower of temptations or magus of the moon to deal with niche threats. Hell, if goblins is such an issue run firespout or something; Ive even seen wrath 0f good played in such metas to great effect. The black splash is welcomed if you can manage it otherwise just focus on dealing with those niche threats.

I've played a little ur faerie fish and I personally found spell stutter sprite to be underwhelming. He's great against fish but pretty weak against gush and shop. Even against drain builds I found myself wishing for better beaters or counters. The sprite/mutavault/cloud of faeries engine has also made me feel like too few spaces are given to alternative hate.

So my question is: What about non-sprite ur fish builds?

Magus of the Moon would offer fish strategies a unique angle on aggro control; unlike tmwa, magus builds would allow for the use of counter magic and blue card draw.

As food for thought and discussion I'll just post a list and we can work from here:

Creatures

4 magus of the moon
2 grim lavamancer
3 ninja of deep hours
2 sage of epityr
3 simian spirit guide
4 gorilla shaman

Other Spells

4 fow
3 moxen and lotus
4 daze
3 null rod
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall
3 lightning bolt
3 steel sabotage
2 spell pierce

Land
5 strip waste
4 scalding tarn
1 flooded strand
4 volcanic island
3 island
1 mountain

I like what was said before about playing gorilla shaman as a 4 of to force your opponent to a)hold back their mox mana only to stumble in a daze or b) drop out all the moxen to eat up the next turn. Instead of holding up 2 mana for sprite, mana can instead be spent dropping an immediate magus or rod, or dropping a one drop and holding up pierce/sabotage/bolt mana.

Thats the basic run around for the magus build, I'd especially like to hear from this thread's generous contributors as well as the forum's usual suspects.

Just a side note, Im not sure if posting in this thread is ok since its been more than 30 days, but seeing as its an unofficial, official ur fish thread I decided to do it anyway rather than make an entirely new ur fish thread....?

Sounds interesting, would you mind posting your list?

but arbiter and rider die when the summoning is on the table...

Personally I dont see what this does that 8 tomb/city does already do. If you really want the accel run additional dark rits for mega-mana.

edit: you beat me to the punchline vaughnbros

this card is telling me to play lots of colorless one or two drops just so they can die. idunno just a thought

Im really excited like alot of people about snapcast and I think its ok that the deck is creature light. Snapcast reminds of cascade. It might as well be considered a draw spell before a beater, I can see this deck playing a whole lot of draw go and just out performing your opponent in card advantage. 4 bob and 4 snapcast means you'll be seeing everything you want to for each match up. Youll get more removal when you want and youll get more counters when you want. The 2/1 body can be great against creature heavy decks as they net you more counters or removal while you clog up the board with blocks that have a little bite.

On the other hand it could use a little more beef, maybe throw in tinkerbot  and switch to rods or maybe a jace or two. Hell maybe there's a really resilient 4 drop out there that you can tutor up to complement the creature base. Its a bit tough to see this deck actually getting in 20 damage in time, but who knows maybe it'll work like landstill and youll just be able to deal with/counter everything once you control the board.

I personally like the idea of running traditional fish with just one or two snapcast to randomly blow out your opponent like landstill did with 2 of daze.

Another possibility could be killing the stony silence strategy and running a sort-of dumptruck style build with more excel and silver bullets; could work nicely with snapcast.

does anyone have results either from testing or tournament play?

good call, I completely forgot that the opal is legendary.

And as far as protection goes is it not unreasonable to run autumn's veil?

I also agree that you're on to something here 

I just wish I had experience with belcher...

I'm glad someone is finally making use of elvish spirit guide 5-8, I'm not sure if it's often or not that you'll want to cast him but manamorphose would help get through that 3 green and I'm pretty sure it has seen play in belcher anyways.

on the mox opal issue, a one of is a nice safe option that I would probably stick to if I were bringing this to a tournament, but I'm curious to see how a redundant 4 of would do in this build, it too would also help out with enabling chancellor casting.

And also, coming from someone who has never played against or had any interest in piloting either hermit dec. or belcher before today, is welder really necessary here? I get that he can bring back a dead belcher or take out null rod, but you're already running a plan B and possible plan C, wouldn't if be better to cut him out to make room for slots that'll help your draws run smoother into your plan a or b, or maybe for more mana production to allow for plan C?

These are just some thoughts off the top of my head. I totally dig this idea, good luck.

here are a number of other random card suggestions; seeing as this deck is quite unique and uses much more acceleration it is open to more unqiue inclusions.

Nest Invader: A possible alternative to elvish spirit guide that gives you both a creature and an accel piece, though probably a lot worse.

Garruk Wildspeaker: Makes tokens, accels mana, and can win races vs shop and even tinker. Maybe a possible sideboard inclusion

Back to Basics: Seeing as you play a more basic and accel heavy deck this could be decent, both as SB and MD inclusions.

Master of the Wild Hunt: I'm not sure if you can consistently cast him, but he allows for creature hate, big beats, and more card draw off eldrich. Seems also quite good against a creature heavy meta as both SB and MD possibilities.

Whirlpool Warrior: Very random, but food for thought nonetheless. He's easy to cast in your deck, he allows you to find an eldrich as soon as possible while offering a beater.

viridian Shaman: Easy to cast with accel, straight forward artifact hater while giving eldrich fuel for draws.

Viridian Zealot: Good hate for oath as well as shop and tezzeret, a beater/drawer when you don't need him; kind of evasive vs shop since you can just swing in with him and just sac him if they declare blocks.

Eladmiri Lord of Leaves: Probably jank but he offers protection and evasion to him and eldrich.

Water Front Bouncer: Answers a lot of things, is a beater, and works well with good card advantage.

Stonybrook Angler: Deals with tinker, oath, and aggro

Phyrexian Revoker: As mentioned before in serracollector's list, it's a creature that also disrupts a number of things.

Gaea's Herald: Self explanatory, not sure if this works or not.

Elvish Harbinger: A tutor for eldrich, a beater that doesnt die to metalworker blocks, and a mana producer.

Bloodbraid Elf: It doesn't seem too hard to splash for this girl, offers quite a bit of power for the deck but is risky for your counter heavy builds. Maybe cut back on dazes or misteps for more summoning traps if you decide to play her.

Grand Architect: Helps with aggro races and possible mana ramp

Meddling Mage: Once again; shouldnt be too hard to splash for him, can pitch to fow, and offers a lot of power to the deck.

anyway thats just some suggestions, most are probably jank but whatever.

I'm guessing by your changes the Drakelings didn't work too well? I still think you need an alternative to mental misstep, daze seems better imo.

is it too much to think that you can consistently cast 5 drops? If not then acidic slime may be a great all purpose beater that does mana denial with drakeling, enchant hate for oath, arti hate for shop and tezz, and creature hate for aggro. The acceleration level of this deck seems to be on par with tezzeret builds and they are casting 4 ofs and 5 ofs all day, even without mana drain.

Plus, summoning trap can get it out for free.

I would keep edric as a 4 of because he really makes the deck tick. And as far as removal, I would run at least 3 of something simply because tinker bot and oath exist, and you won't always draw a sower in time.

agreed, your accell makes it so that you won't have to rely on the one mana, one land paradigm. This may be absurd but maybe spiketail drakeling could work nicely. Chalice of the void also seems like a nice fit, and add in 1 or 2 of elvish spirit guide to boost your accell just a little bit further without sacrificing creature density. After she gets a whole lot better with eldric.

yeah, the changes makes the deck look alot better now. Im still not sure about the weak one drops though. Vault skirge may be good against thorn and golem as it doesn't end up costing you extra but its still a chump without edric. And the trickster mage requires you to constantly discard, which is painful without edric and when you run chrome mox, but not terrible I guess. Have you done any testing?

did you find yourself missing that extra wasteland at all? As far as my knowledge of landstill goes, I was always under the impression that it needed a mana denial strategy to work well; ie stifle and null rod.

we won't be able to say a thing about this deck without any testing. But right off the bat I'll say that it doesn't stand a chance against mud, so maybe try the elvish scrappers or maybe seal of primordium. Mental misstep doesn't seem that good as a 4 of main deck, it's useless vs shop, ichorid, and pretty weak against oath. I'd play them as a 3 of in combo and not much else, try daze, it seems better here. I think the issue with the deck is that you're relying on a legendary 3 drop creature to make you one drops good. The 7 one drops are bad on their own and edric is bad on his own. What do you do when someone drops a lodestone golem or a trygon predator? Hope you get a sower of temptation? What happens when they drop another one?

I must say I do like the concept of an all out aggro/rush/disruption beaters deck, but you lack the consistency of a steady flow of disruption, card advantage, and answers; something modern fish builds can barely even get right.

But I won't kill the concept. Try to find better one drops, maybe add another color, and don't rely on edric so much, he might be alot better as a stand alone bomb to just drop out of nowhere to turn your turn one and two drops into draw spells.

This may see SB play as a 3-4 simply as an answer to the almost unwinnable matchup of oath. I mean, is there anything else this deck doesn't have at least a 50% chance against post sideboard? I haven't tested the build post SB at all so I can't personally confirm that claim, but I mean you basically go:

6 ichorid hate (crypt, relic, trap, needle, etc)
3 ingot chewer (also hates ichorid) or lightning bolt or shattering spree or something
3 chaos warp
3 red blast
 
And you're pretty much as set as you'll ever be for the meta(?)

But I don't know, what do the seasoned TMWA pilots think?

has anyone tested '3-4 of' phyrexian revoker? He's great with the colourless lands and by using him liberally he functions as both mana denial and a game stopper vs vault, walkers, and kuldotha forgemaster mud builds. Or is he too narrow to warrant more than a toolbox pick for imperial recruiter?

right now is exam time so me and my friend who plays MUD wont be able to do very much testing, but I will eventually get back with some results. Bitterblossom is probably the best engine for earwig squad and I will test it out a bit. The addition of blue is an interesting option, so we'll see how that turns out too. B/G rogues may also be effective as you can better deal with enchants and artifacts together.

Well thats fine, and thats why this is in the creative forum. I for one, am testing this deck and tweaking it throughout. I think there are alot of people looking for alternative strategies that are not always going to be competitive. Fish will hardly ever beyond 5th place, but there are still countless variations and threads of people discussing and pondering their possibilities. It's called innovation, and I can't stress that word enough. Thats why I am going down this unlikely path to see what I can come out with. Everyone reading this thread can join me for the ride. That is why we all acknowledge the reality that this is an unlikely, "creative forum" deck and we suspend such comments saying that its just "plane uncomptetitive," and we just go along and test and tweak without being continually bogged down by such comments.

*to the manadrain community* Please leave only constructive criticism that will move the discussion forward, or feel free by your own accord to let this thread die. Just dont leave anymore comments saying "no this deck wont work, this deck won't work"

That said, I still believe ES offers a unique approach to the "hate deck" archetype and I'm tweaking it to see where it can go. And I wouldn't mind hearing a few ideas on card choices and synergies that can work in this r/b hate deck.

Your post was anything but pro-rogue building, you compare a build separated by 20 cards to mere goblins dec and you've made judgements on a build that you have not tested or seen developed. That was the type of character I was shown. I only ask that you abide by my request.

Good day sir.

I disagree with you on jace. Even if they play 3 jace, a resolved ES is gg. What can a jace do against a 5/3 and a number of other creatures? Bounce it? Sure, I'll recast him and take out your other 2 jaces, and Fate-seal cant do a thing vs a full board of creatures.

And as for Mud, ES can get rid of their 1 of wurmcoil and 2 of other beater. Thus I can save my 11 other removal effects for his golems and such.

Just because its visually similar to goblins, doesnt mean it plays out or is limited to the scope of goblins. Please donot make sweeping judgements when you have only looked at a list and compared it to another. The fact that we get ES's power in combination with disruption like duress over just stupid goblin beaters is a big separation. And if I can get my opponent to discard TWO cards from a single creature's attack, Ill be happy; i believe thats something called card advantage. The discard synergies in the deck means that quite often, mud wont have anything to discard, while tezz wont even want to discard 1-2 cards a turn. That said, prowler is very weak against ichorid and I am open to different interpretations of the deck.

The inherent greatness I see in ES is not the fact that he is amazing vs mud, but the fact that he is a solid beater in that matchup, and is a HUGE threat against the control/combo field. He effectively gives r/b hate a huge out against the likely 50% of the decks you will face in a tournament, while he also stands a decent chance in other matchups. VS Mud he takes out 3 chalices and gives you a 5/3, thats pretty big to me.

While I see that guys like you are resistant to rogue experiment decks, I have to ask you to not be so closed minded to pet builds. Obviously this deck as it exists is not likely to break the format, but when we avoid shutting down a thread by saying "no" time and time again, we destroy any new sparks of creativity or innovation. I know you're intentions are in the right place, but Im going to ask for only constructive criticism that moves the deck forward, instead of blanket generalizations and complete dismissal of the deck.

That said, I have already tested this a bit vs mud, and I am intent on the following cuts:

- 1 ES
- 1 prowler

+2 shattering spree

Ok so I just recently picked up a set of earwig squads cuz all 4 were under the glass and I'd be crazy not to, and have lately been thinking about their use in vintage. In goblins, a resolved squad was usually gg, as it ate up tezz's win cons, and provided a huge damage threat on the board. That was the norm for my meta a year ago, and now with the rise of more resilient tezz builds,as well as oath and aggro mud, goblins, and thus earwig squad has since disappeared in the face of such power house/blowout decks. But while goblins is at the bottom of the barrel, I don't think ES should be as well. Thus I open the discussion of applying ES to non goblins builds for a better hate package in combination with a such a game changer in both disruption and creature strength. A goblin/rogue combination is not an impossible feat for a type 1 deck, and I think such a deck can succeed through the use of ES, as many decks are not prepared for it.
Lets analyize ES's strength against the meta.

vs Tezz, it takes out the vault and tinker win cons, while also providing an unbeatable 5/3 vs trygons and bobs, while jace can only hope to fateseal win vs an aggro board. He's amazing here.

vs Mud
Really only good as a beater, but can take out future threats like chalices and hellkites. Not terrible, but not great.

VS Oath
Takes out oath creatures if played quickly enough via excell. Once again, not terrible, but not great.

VS Storm
Takes out all wincons, pretty dam good.

VS Aggro
Good beater that takes out unplayed goyfs or removal. Pretty good, but not game winning like in combo matchups.

So all in all, ES is the higher end beater that can up and win games vs a big part of the meta; combo-control decks.

If a deck based around ES is going to compete though, its going to need a strong oath/mud hate and excell package to help it push through to a top 8.


4 dark ritual
1 lotus 1 mox jet 1 moxruby

4 squad
3 dark confidant
2 goblin vandal
3 goblin welder
3 oona's prowler
4 slavering nulls 

8 duress
4 diabloic edict
1 demonic tutor
2 null rod

5 waste/strip
4 bloodstained mire
4 badlands
3 mountain
3 swamp


SB
4 ingot chewer
4 chainer's edict
3 leyline of the void
1 pithing needle
2 ravenous trap
1 null rod
 
Vs oath, if we're on the play we duress them, if we're on the draw we have welder to deal with blightsteel and 4 edict to deal with other creatures, until we can get an earwig swquad. Sideboard may include 4 more edict effects or maybe gargadon. all in all, it may prove to be a better aggro deck than fish in dealing with oath.

vs mud we combine the discard heavy synergies from S-Nulls/prowler and duress/seiz, with artfact and creature removal from edict, welder, and vandals. 2 of null rod also comes into account on random occasions, while 8 accel options help power us through inital spheres. prowlers trade with lodestones after hands are emptied. sideboard includes 4 ingot chewer for chalices and further arti hate, and 1 needle and 1 rod for Karn, worker, or Staff 

vs aggro we have 4 edict main as well as a smaller rod count than other fish decks, which can be quite good at times.if they play vial, great, we have 5 arti gobs and 2 rods. ES is key against this matchup, while our 4 dark rits gives us a faster accel plan than hierarchs or vials. sideboard brings in 4 more edicts and a couple ingot chewers for more beater bulk. Hopefully our discard plan throws them off enough. plus, we can block selkies and possibly win the card advnatage race.

vs storm we are the favoured matchup, we have 8 duress effects,and even more discard creatures, followed by ES and the occassional null rod. we bring in a 3rd nll rod for consistency. done.

vs tezz we are favoured. 4 edicts to deal with their bobs and predators, making sure to save one back for tinker. 8 seize plus follow up prowler and null discard gives us a solid beater/discard mix to allow for a follow up ES, turns 1,2,3. Later, we can bring in a needle, 1 rod, and a few chewers for additional arti hate if desired.

vs Ichorid troubling, but not horrible. everything but null rod comes in to play some role in fighting ichorid.

All in all, i think a build like this has a good shot at playability. ES allows for the crucial extra push against combo decks, while the supporting synergies enable a decent matchup against mud. Oath is still worrisome, but there seems to be enough creature hate in the 75 that can help stall for an earwig squad. It's really just dependant on the coin flip for that matchup. Anyways, please share your thoughts and ideas, this is just one build and I think we can all pitch in innovative ideas to make something of this.ES may be just what is needed for the overall strength of such aggro hate decks.

I beleive that a big mistake landstill players make is siding out landstill. When you have strong enough ichorid hate, then use standstill to deck them. I have seen someone board in things like ingot chewer, leyline of the void, and pyroclasm. It was all diverse hate that happened to hate ichorid as well. He stalled long enough with chewers and pyroclasms, while the ichroid player kept on dredging. At that point he just cracked his own landstill, made his opponent dredge, then cast another landstill. He cracked the second one and the guy decked himself.