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1  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Premium Article] Pat Chapin Discusses Vintage, The Deck, and Proxies on: August 18, 2009, 03:11:02 pm
Proxies contribute to lack of commitment
Proxies went out of control in America.  One only need to view the 1st place decklist of the Mishra's Workshop 15 proxy tournament in Los Angeles from several months ago.  Bazaar was proxied however many other cheap cards such as Angel of Despair were also proxied.  Angel of Despair.  Honestly?  That is unfortunately not the only event in which proxying of this type occurs.  I have spoken with many players that said they have proxied Force of Will and Polluted Delta.  This is ridiculous.  These cards are not extremely expensive.  These are cards that also have uses in other formats.  Proxying these cards shows a high level of apathy and lack of commitment.    

Entitlement
Americans have an amazing sense of entitlement.  They feel they are entitled to things beyond their means simply because they are Americans.  They are entitled to massive homes even if they have little to zero income.  They are entitled to new cars and new clothes, even though they have little to zero income.  That was the era of living off lines of credit.  That era is over.  
 
You read players post comments such as "unlike you, I have to make my rent payment and/or car payment therefore I NEED to sell any of my tournament winnings for money".  Look, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you cannot afford to play Vintage.  In fact, in your current life/financial situation, you really cannot afford to play in ANY competitive MTG format.  You are not entitled.  I will not tell you to play standard because I also understand that the rapidly changing standard environment is also very costly.  To you, I give big brotherly advice to attend school in order to get a better paying job.  Work hard at it and someday you too can afford a hobby.  

Sure free vacations are nice, but they shouldn't be the only reason you play (which seems to me is the reason most people even attend events in the USA if you go by what people tell me) it just seems weird to me that the current Vintage World Champion has the ability to travel to France, USA and what not from his country of origin and you guys can't get a car filled for a 5-6 hour road trip... that's all I'm saying... something is wrong with the attitude.... certainly there are enough Vintage players in the US to fill a SCG P9 event with 200 people?

European Commitment and America's Lack of Commitment
Its about commitment to a concept, commitment to the game.  The Americans, for the most part, lack this commitment.  That is why they do not travel a rather short distance for a large Vintage event.  That is why many of them sold off their power cards.  Little by little, Europe on the other hand, decided that a Vintage community was desirable.  Europe invested in developing their Vintage community.  Europe has a passion for Vintage.
 
Americans figured that they could have it all.  They cleverly figured that they could have their Vintage (sell their expensive cards) and also have their XBOX.  To put it simply, Americans sold out their Vintage Commitment.  

On the subject of misunderstanding, I suggest you review TMD's Rules more carefully before posting again.  Specifically, I advise you to read Rule III, Inflammatory Posting, Rule VI, Prohibited Actions (political discussion), and Rule VII, Major Infractions (trolling), as your post violates all of them.  

I don't normally do this, but since the substance of your remarks was so egregiously off-base that other users might be tempted to correct you, I'll address the essence of your message, inflammatory as it may be.  The United States housing crisis came not from a sense of consumer entitlement but from a lack of basic financial literacy in the lower socioeconomic strata.  If a mortgage broker is telling you that you don't need a down payment on a $300,000 home and that your $39,000 gross income is sufficient, and when you see other people with comparable backgrounds to yours making those sorts of purchases, the reasonable inference, especially for someone without a working knowledge of finance, is that this is how things work.  "Entitlement" has nothing to do with it.  And, I might add, Europeans fared little better than Americans in terms of financial sophistication since they bought into C.D.O.'s and securitized mortgage debt packages just like everyone else.

As for your remarks about the motivations and thought processes of American Vintage players versus European Vintage players, I'll presume you haven't interviewed a statistically significant number of Vintage players in America versus Europe, and so you're either intentionally trolling or at least superimposing your own prejudices over an issue that's far more complex than you're willing to acknowledge.  With respect to commitment to Vintage, I'll simply say that competitive Type One, and this website, were created as a labor of love by Americans, for free, and I won't stand by and watch you denigrate their work.  Without the devotion of Americans there would be no Vintage community.  

Relatedly, because the American Vintage community started competitive Type One as we know it first, Vintage players in America have gotten older and need to balance several obligations alongside Magic, like a a full-time career, maintaining a family, and paying down student loan debt that's orders of magnitude beyond what people in Europe need to deal with.  This is not "selling out."  It's called "growing up," which I suggest you look into trying for yourself soon, especially if you plan to remain a member of TMD much longer.  Full Warning issued, and if you incite this kind of conflict on this site again, you will be summarily banned.  

To everyone else, so there's no ambiguity:  The discussion of the issues raised by juzamjimjuice is over.  If you have anything to add, contact him via PM.  I'm sure he'll be happy to expound on his conclusions about the character of Americans vs. Europeans.  I don't want to see it on the boards.  I respect America's, and Europe's, representatives on TMD too much to see them dragged down into this.  -DA
2  Eternal Formats / Eternal Article Discussion / Re: [Premium Article] Pat Chapin Discusses Vintage, The Deck, and Proxies on: August 17, 2009, 06:32:21 pm


The sense of entitlement that Americans have is amazing.  There may be some angry and upset replies to this post, but honestly, this has to be stated.

Most readers will fail to see the American housing market analogy but I will make it anyways.  I'll also throw in a combo of politics as well. 

1.  Competitive Vintage is an expensive format to play.
2.  Competitive Standard is an expensive format to play.
3.  Competitive Legacy and Extended are expensive formats as well.

Vintage proxy mania
The use of proxies basically allowed many people that couldn't afford to play in competitive Vintage the ability to play competitive Vintage.  Even if they could not afford to play competitive Vintage.

USA Housing bubble
Likewise many people that had no jobs or credit or money were allowed to buy homes that they could not afford. 
The US banks were basically creating "proxy" loans.  Sham loans were made to people that could not afford and therefore did not deserve to own an expensive "McMansion" home. 
Now the chickens have come home to roost and people are getting evicted out of their homes they could not afford to own. 

This is called reality

In Vintage there is now earnest discussion of zero proxy tournaments in America.  This would mean a lot of people that cannot afford to play competitive Vintage would be evicted from competitive Vintage. 

This too is called reality

Love alone is not enough
I understand a lot of you love Vintage.  In business, in relationships, and in reality, love alone just is not enough.  Just because you love a format, does not give you entitlement to play a format.     

Here's an example.  I love the Mercedes Roadster.  I study the specs of  Mercedes Roadsters and know a lot about Mercedes.  A Mercedes Roadster is my favorite car.  I do not have enough funds to buy a Mercedes Roadster.  I am not entitled to it. 

I understand this sounds like I am a Vintage Elitist, but actually I'm simply a realist. 

Europeans understand reality a bit better than Americans.  Europeans have suffered under the yo-yo government schemes of Communism and Socialism for many years. 

Politics and Magic, Vintage comboed
Clearly America is eagerly rushing towards that lovely ideal of Socialism and perhaps even quasi-Communism.  You read evidence of this fact on these forums the outright demands that everyone, every man, every child, is intrinsically entitled to play the format consisting of the most expensive, most collectible cards in the entire game of Magic the Gathering. 
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