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Author Topic: [Premium Article] Pat Chapin Discusses Vintage, The Deck, and Proxies  (Read 32636 times)
scifiantihero
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2009, 01:24:02 am »


Just a thought.  This was inspired by Aardshark's comment that for example, Time Vault is in probably more vintage decks than say, Mox Emerald, and he was wondering where all the Time Vault's have disappeared to.  I am eBay impaired so I have no idea.

Having just bought a couple: two of them went to me!

There were definitely less time vaults than some of the other power cards, when I was searching, but they still sell for less.  I paid about 175 each.  Emeralds were closing at like 215 for the cheapest.

: )
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2009, 03:13:44 am »

For looking card prices i would use http://apathyhouse.com/ becouse it's ebay prices and not store prices...and you can look card prices thro out history.
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2009, 05:23:49 am »



The sense of entitlement that Americans have is amazing.  There may be some angry and upset replies to this post, but honestly, this has to be stated.

Most readers will fail to see the American housing market analogy but I will make it anyways.  I'll also throw in a combo of politics as well.  

1.  Competitive Vintage is an expensive format to play.
2.  Competitive Standard is an expensive format to play.
3.  Competitive Legacy and Extended are expensive formats as well.

Vintage proxy mania
The use of proxies basically allowed many people that couldn't afford to play in competitive Vintage the ability to play competitive Vintage.  Even if they could not afford to play competitive Vintage.

USA Housing bubble
Likewise many people that had no jobs or credit or money were allowed to buy homes that they could not afford.  
The US banks were basically creating "proxy" loans.  Sham loans were made to people that could not afford and therefore did not deserve to own an expensive "McMansion" home.  
Now the chickens have come home to roost and people are getting evicted out of their homes they could not afford to own.  

This is called reality.  

In Vintage there is now earnest discussion of zero proxy tournaments in America.  This would mean a lot of people that cannot afford to play competitive Vintage would be evicted from competitive Vintage.  

This too is called reality.  

Love alone is not enough
I understand a lot of you love Vintage.  In business, in relationships, and in reality, love alone just is not enough.  Just because you love a format, does not give you entitlement to play a format.    

Here's an example.  I love the Mercedes Roadster.  I study the specs of  Mercedes Roadsters and know a lot about Mercedes.  A Mercedes Roadster is my favorite car.  I do not have enough funds to buy a Mercedes Roadster.  I am not entitled to it.  

I understand this sounds like I am a Vintage Elitist, but actually I'm simply a realist.  

Europeans understand reality a bit better than Americans.  Europeans have suffered under the yo-yo government schemes of Communism and Socialism for many years.  

Politics and Magic, Vintage comboed
Clearly America is eagerly rushing towards that lovely ideal of Socialism and perhaps even quasi-Communism.  You read evidence of this fact on these forums the outright demands that everyone, every man, every child, is intrinsically entitled to play the format consisting of the most expensive, most collectible cards in the entire game of Magic the Gathering.  


I'm sorry that you can't afford your favorite car, but your comparison is lacking at best and aside of this is missing the point completely.

After all, Magic is a game. Even at competetive level. To play it, you need other people playing with you. As far as tcgs and tournaments are concerned you want as many people as possible playing with you (prices,...). And because of this even the players owning power have an interest in keeping all those proxi-using players in the game (or at least most of them). The real question is, how to deal with the downsides of proxies.

About your last point 'Politics, Magic and Vintage comboed': this is really ridiculous. You can't take an isolated minority with its special interests as a marker for the direction a society develops. Congratualtions that you realized there was a problem with the American housing market, but maybe you should read a bit more of your paper than just the headlines. But as I guess that the whole issue of your post was to insult the Americans on this forum, it doesn't matter anyway.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 05:28:03 am by zeromancer » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2009, 05:52:04 am »

"So, what is to be done about all of this?  I don't think there is a perfect solution, but I do think there is one thing that we can all get behind: we should legalize CE cards for Vintage play.    CE cards are *real* cards, not power.  They have value, and they are awesome to look at and admire."

How about Americans start buying European power? Just because we bought em doesn't mean we won't sell them back to you, while making a profit.. Until someone invents ubersleeves that aren't seethrough, CE will not be legalized.

Also, there are enough pieces of power to keep every vintage player fully powered. Just like there are enough Mercedes Benz cars for everyone to go around, however this does not mean that the price should drop.


I actually don't care if the American vintage scene dies. I care because there are alot of great players and I like TMD, but I don't care about the fact that we now have all the power pieces. That is the price we paid. Europeans invested in a vintage community by obtaining valuable cards from the states, whereas Americans divested in Vintage by selling them to us for a premium compared to US only auctions. In the end, Europeans care more for Vintage because we are willing to pay more for it. If you want something, save up money, get an extra job and purchase the power. The truth is in the Euro, and that's all there is to it. I don't enjoy playing on MWS for the very reason I dislike proxies. The solution, obtain the cards so I can play real magic instead.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 05:59:20 am by BruiZar » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2009, 06:22:02 am »

Ok seriously, I've tried to stay out of these types of discussions because they only lead to a USA vs European meta kinda thing and it just doesn't work.... now in all fairness I've stated this before, nobody from the US has yet explained WHY events like Bazaar of Moxen and Eurovino gather 200-300+ players to play Sanctioned 0 proxie Vintage and THE VINTAGE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP can barely put up a very weakly showing of just over 100 players.

I've been to Bazaar of Moxen 2 and I've been hosting Vintage tournaments for well over a year now and I  can tell you there was a LOT of power / semi power in that room during BOM and even with my event being 10 proxy we see a lot of people turn in a decklist that note 0 proxy. Easily 2/3's of the rooms played in Europe have some sort of powered deck (whether full powered or just using 2-3 moxen, time walk etc) were almost every event I see in the US (if somebody takes pics that is) has playmats full of proxy power.

Is it because of proxies that you guys sold of all your power to Europe (were power is much more expensive then in the US so you can make a quick buck) or is there something else going on? Or is it the lack in prize support and have you all become so greedy? Yes you've heard me, I've talked to a lot of US players about attending one of the big Euro events and this is the reply I get the most:

For me to come over I'd have to break even else it's not worthwhile, so I would HAVE to win such an event to get my money back so there is no sense in going because I'll lose money on it and that not a good deal..... etc etc etc (fill in the blanks yourself)

My reply usually to this is: WHAT?!.... I traveled for 10 hours in a car (and yes gas prizes SUCK over here compared to you guys) spend 250 EURO on hotel, gas, food and needed to spent another 70-80 euro on entry for Bazaar of Moxen and did I get my investment back? Hell no... would I  go again? Hell yes... I'm even going to Eurovino this year. Look at the current Vintage World Champion, this guy traveled to France for Bazaar of Moxen and to the US for Vintage Worlds do you think he broke even????

I've noticed a trend which runs far deeper then just this proxy debate... what makes it that European (and Chinees/ Japanse I have no idea where Itou is from) are willing to pay insane amounts of money on power (or pimping out their deck), traveling and what not? Sheer love for the game and the format? (I would call it that)

Now don't get me wrong lets take our most known player and responder in this thread, Steve Menendian as an example (note: Steve I have no clue as to whether you'd come over to Europe or what your motivations are for not coming but you're a very easily visible example in this. I know you've come over here in the past so don't take this personally)

Steve has stated in the past he works as a Lawyer (not a blue collar 1,50 a hour type of job imo) so he should obviously be able to have the funds for such a trip, maybe not right away but he should be able to put aside some cash during a year to make it to such an event next year. If you're winning cash during other events spanning that year you could use that money as well sort of like your "this is my cash to play magic" savings type of deal. So the possibilities are there, nobody can deny that.

What makes it that players like Steve don't do this? Surely it can't be other expenses that factor in on this that much?  You guys aren't fooling anybody in saying we're broke, Magic and Vintage in general attracts a certain sort of people, mostly it's highly educated people that all work in high paying jobs. Look at Steve (lawyer) Demonic Attorney (Lawyer) Eastman (Lawyer), myself (software developer) it's not like we're talking carpenters here.... these are people that are supposed to earn a very decent living...

Vintage is a hobby (and obviously Magic in general unless your LSV or Chapin or Nassif in which case it's a job) and like everything hobby's cost a LOT of money. Try restoring an Old timer (easily you're investing TWICE the money of a beat up set P9 if you're doing it right), collecting Vintage Guitars, Fishing and thusly buying a boat or dirt bike racing, painting you name it... everything people use for recreational purposes or hobby is going to cost tons if you're fanatical enough about pursuing it at a high level (yes Vintage is considered playing at a high level imo) ... you can't deny this, it's a fact. If standard is you're "training bike" which doesn't cost you all that much Vintage is you're fully functional racing bike..I hope you guys get the point I'm trying to make, Vintage is not for the first time magic player, nor for the I've played standard for a year now so I'll play this type of player. Usually we're talking about players that have been around for around 4-5 years minimum before they are comfortable enough with the games mechanics to switch to older formats. At this point you should already know if magic is something you'd want to be doing for a long time or if you're still just exploring it as a possible fun way to kill time. So you'd likely know if you'd want to invest that amount of time and money into your hobby.

Now before you all pile over me because of my statements here, please look close into yourself, when is the last time you said, I'm losing money on making this trip and scrubbing out  and even if I would have won I would have lost money on this but at least I had a BLAST of a time hanging out? I'm not saying you guys have lost the love for the format but you can't deny the fact you guys worry a lot more about "breaking even", "losing money" then we European players do.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:59:55 am by marske » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2009, 06:55:00 am »

LOTS OF TEXT

To be fair I used to like SCG P9s so much because you could actually make money on the trip Wink Also during the Gush era of Vintage i'm pretty sure I was positive on magic.
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2009, 07:02:48 am »

insert random ranting about "I was once positive and a good player" or " I LoL'd"

Vintage shouldn't be about "making money on a Saturday" (get a weekend job if that's what you're after) It should be about the fun road trips, the debauchery, the hanging out, the sandwich punching, the huge EDH games after the event, the huge amount of insane plays during the event etc etc.
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2009, 07:32:26 am »

Just one thing i wanted to add and forgot yesterday :
Here in France, we got the perfect exemple on ghow Proxy and non-proxy issue has nothing to do with the tournaments attendance.

In the Paris Aera, 2 years ago, we got a vintage tournaments serie with 80-120 players every 2 monthes.
The same tournaments now are 40-50 players.

And they all are non-proxy tournaments.

So i really don't think  that proxy issue can be linked to attendance issue.

The main reason i see there is the totally uninteresting format we had in the Gush/flash era. Alot of players stopped playing competitive vintage in this era, and didn't come back yet. And i really can understand their point of view, especially in a format with semi casual players and pet decks.

@smennen :
The fact is that without proxy, i really think that you can't have a solid mid 20s players  base, that will stay in the format untill they get married/need money for something else, that's total utopia for me... you have to get a job to be a vintage player without proxy, or having proxy tournament series you can win your power in (you're clearly a good example of this)

Now, that's just my 2cts.
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2009, 08:02:47 am »

insert random ranting about "I was once positive and a good player" or " I LoL'd"

Vintage shouldn't be about "making money on a Saturday" (get a weekend job if that's what you're after) It should be about the fun road trips, the debauchery, the hanging out, the sandwich punching, the huge EDH games after the event, the huge amount of insane plays during the event etc etc.


Well I mean obv you don't play magic to make money but i'm just saying free vacations are nice. I guess I just have less creditbility since i'm not a "Vintage Adept" whatever the hell that means.

You don't have credibility because the average length of your contributions to Vintage-related discussions these days is about six words, not counting emoticons, and you add nothing of strategic value.  In addition, I don't think you've played Vintage more than 3 times in the last year.  And Marius is right, your usergroup has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.  I know it's "edgy" to rebel against the TMD Rules, but let's not be ridiculous.  -DA
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« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2009, 08:07:20 am »

@Tool,
Being a "Vintage Adept" has nothing to do with this entire discussion and you know it Wink

Sure free vacations are nice, but they shouldn't be the only reason you play (which seems to me is the reason most people even attend events in the USA if you go by what people tell me) it just seems weird to me that the current Vintage World Champion has the ability to travel to France, USA and what not from his country of origin and you guys can't get a car filled for a 5-6 hour road trip... that's all I'm saying... something is wrong with the attitude.... certainly there are enough Vintage players in the US to fill a SCG P9 event with 200 people?

Besides, whats the main reason YOU don't play anymore?
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2009, 08:49:56 am »

I can see this spiraling out of control and I think we'll be going off track very shortly.

Comparing one persons ability to travel to and fro to play magic is pointless because there's 150 000 different reasons why one person can and others can't.  Unless we start getting into individual situations we'll never get anywhere.  I'm also Canadian not American but in some instances we are encountering a similar problem here.  The reason why traveling to Europe is often decided on financial return is because the difference in the cost of driving 10 hours and a flight between North America and Europe is substancial.  Don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind doing it sometime but it'll be for a big event, not because I intend on making a buck on my winnings but because it's a big investment.

To keep things back on topic,  I think the key is to hold both proxy and non-proxy tournaments.  Regular proxy tournaments to keep people playing and 3-4 large tournaments a year with insane prize structures (see BOM) which are sanctionned.  This allows the introduction of vintage to new players as well as given players a reason to get the cards.  Over time the proxy tournaments can probably be reduced but I think they're a necessary evil.

I know a local store that holds regular sanctionned tournaments and the field is atrocious.  The first time I heard about it I should up with STAX and got paired 3 straight rounds against kithkin or changelings.  Most of these players are younger and being in school can't get all the cards they need to compete.  That's boring for fully powered players, which is why smaller tournaments I think are better with some level of proxies.

Also I've been trying to get a couple local stores to hold proxy tournaments on a weekly basis with the following structure.
5$ entry
each proxy costs an additional 0.25$ - 1$
Total entry fees are distributed in product or store credit.

The store doesn't lose out because he's basically selling product and making players play.
The players get exposed and can test different Archtypes to see what they prefer playing.
It provides incentives to collect Vintage staples and eventually the higher end cards.

Of course the costs can be modified to fit any area.

I do aggree that having only 10+ proxy tournaments and only 1 sanctionned one (with horrible prize support) vintage becomes very difficult to maitain.

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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2009, 08:57:18 am »

@apocalyp,
Clearly you haven't ever traveled to Europe... I've traveled to the USA the plane ticket cost me 500 euro (give or take) the trip to BOM cost me 350-400 euro total... there isn't really THAT much of a difference in costs.... lets assume it's a total of 600 including stay at a hostel and food... we're talking about a difference of 250 euro MAX and that's when traveling from the USA to Europe.

According to Expedia you can get a return ticket from NYC to Amsterdam (taking the trip I took as basic info) for 589,82 Euro AKA $830 (link for reference)... you can't convince me anybody with a decent paying job isn't able to get that kinda money together in the course of an entire year... no way... no how...

Sure the extra costs can be a great excuse for not traveling to Europe... But in NO way is this an excuse for not making it to the tournament in Chicago if you live in Boston... flying in the USA is easily doable last time I checked for the same prices we'd take a trip to BOM and I doubt with your gas prizes if the costs of driving would get you in a much higher price range. I think the proxy discussion along with the willingness to travel IS the subject... it seems to me people in other countries are willing to travel further, longer for less gain then American players are willing to do which is a very related subject for getting back on track with having 3-4 big events every year.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 09:09:11 am by marske » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2009, 09:09:20 am »

I totaly agree with all that apocalyp said....
The main problem isn't proxy tournament, it's the balance between proxy and non proxy event.
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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2009, 09:13:43 am »

@Neonico,
I mentioned all this (holding small proxy events and huge non-proxy events) the very first time this entire discussion came around: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37698.0

I think having proxie events (with power for first) are a great way to get people into the format, sanctioning and running big events keeps them from selling power and into playing vintage in the long run.

So this entire thing isn't something new to me... nor are the ideas posted here... I only think there is a deeper issue going on underneath... the fact that the current World Champ traveled such a huge amount just for Vintage Worlds (so the broadcasters claimed during the live coverage)  and you guys aren't able to get 200 people in a single event and we Europeans get 300 (bazaar of moxen, Eurovino) illustrates this entire theory imo.
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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2009, 11:14:33 am »

So this entire thing isn't something new to me... nor are the ideas posted here... I only think there is a deeper issue going on underneath... the fact that the current World Champ traveled such a huge amount just for Vintage Worlds (so the broadcasters claimed during the live coverage)  and you guys aren't able to get 200 people in a single event and we Europeans get 300 (bazaar of moxen, Eurovino) illustrates this entire theory imo.

The fact that one can point to one person who did all this travelling doesn't everybody can (or even should) be travelling across the country or world to play Vintage. While I am glad for Itou that he has the money, willingness, and devotion to the format to do this (and surely applaud his victory), being able to point to one guy (or even twenty) doesn't somehow reinforce the idea that the US's Vintage tournament system design is broken. There are plenty of other things that can be (rightly) pointed to, but this isn't one of them.

Additionally, if we're unwilling to make the big investment in the cards themselves, why would we even begin lining up for flights to Europe? Also, I'm not flying to Europe to play Vintage for anything less than the world championship, and I imagine the same is true for the vast majority of American players. Travel, room, time of travel, and card expenses are all real costs that people should be taking into account when deciding which tournaments to attend and whether to play Vintage at all. It can't be written off as "lack of devotion to the format" any time someone decides not to spend over $3,000 on some pieces of cardboard. Players have very legitimate concerns about costs that need to be addressed in some fashion. Either the disincentives (costs of all forms) need to be reduced or the incentives of playing need to be increased.

So, what is to be done about all of this?  I don't think there is a perfect solution, but I do think there is one thing that we can all get behind: we should legalize CE cards for Vintage play.    CE cards are *real* cards, not power.  They have value, and they are awesome to look at and admire.

I did want to make a note on this one suggestion. I agree that there is not a perfect solution, and this could possibly be the direction we should head. However, I talked about collector's edition a while ago in this post and I'm more inclined to think getting to a sanctioned model is better than the CE model because I think it will bring more prestige to the format. I'm definitely up for further discussion of legalizing CE though.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 11:30:38 am by Yare » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2009, 11:52:21 am »

Assuming the card sleeve issue can be addressed and cheating is not enabled by having CE cards in a deck.

What are the downsides (if any) to legalizing CE cards?  I don't see any issues, and fully support this suggestion.

Also, I agree a good approach to sustaining Vintage is a shared Sanctioned / Proxy model.  Meaning local / smaller events should support proxies.  While national / international, large scale events should be sanctioned and be supported by large prize structures.
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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2009, 12:23:01 pm »

Normaly I do not post in these discusions, but I see here some points mentioned, that clearly need some attention in my view.

Traveling:
It is indeed as Yare said not for us to say how long or how far someone must travel for a Tournament, however, if people want to enjoy large Vintage Tournaments they will need to travel for them in most cases. This is true for the people in the USA and in Europe, so there is no difference in this. If people are willing to see a weekend of Tournament play as a small Holiday where they will be doing their Hoby, instead of I pay this to play in a event bla bla..... so I need to make even when I top 8 or something is not correct in my point of view.

I'm not the worst player but when I went to Annecy last year (500 Mile trip) by car, I did it really for the fun of it.
To play with 200 people in 1 room, looking if I might provail.
This year I'm going to Milaan to play in one of the Biggest events in Eternal Magic.
I view the money I need to pay for this the same as the money I need to pay for my vacation to a nice warm beach.
That's the passion Marius is talking about. Nothing less and nothing more.
(yes I understand that not every body has this amount availble for these kind of things)

Proxies:
As founder of the Dutch Vintage Tournaments I can say you this about the subject.
Proxies makes the format more available for newer and/or Legacy players then when you wont use proxies.
The first 2 Tournaments we had arround 30 people playiongin Breda. After that we came to a close 50 players each time.

But what the format hurts most is the lack of sanctioned events.
If wizards found a way to approve a proxie system of 5 proxies with proxie cards delivered by them self (Blank MTG cards that you can wright on)  the people will come back. This way they make money on the proxies and the Vintage crowed, and the Vintage Tournaments becomes  sanctioned again. Now it is even fun for Pro players to attend in these tournaments due to the fact that they can get their ratings up.

These are just a few thoughts of me.

Greetz Arjan
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:30:33 pm by Zieby » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2009, 12:35:41 pm »

@Marske
Your missing the point of what I was saying.  First I mentionned I was from canada and the same destination would cost about 1000$CAD and then there's food and lodgings.  Like you said I agree anybody with a decent job and who wants to save for it can.   That is at least true in a bubble.  When you consider that most people don't have Magic and Work as the only 2 things in their lives, it invalidades that perspective.

As an example.
I travel for work a fair amount actually, so I try to spend as much time when I'm not working with my GF.
I've got pets.
I play hockey
I go fishing
I have various outings outside the city with friends and family
I have season tickets to a professional sports team.

Once you look at that the money spent to go that event would be substantial.  Now I don't wanna bicker about what's affordable and what's not it's a matter of priorities.  I think we can all agree that inter-continental travel is subjective and restrictive to culture and life priorities.  Heck if I'm not mistaken it's easy for europeans to travel between the EU countries but the Canada-American border can be a pain in the ass.  As for driving between cities I'm in full agreeance with you.  I've driven to Toronto approx. 5 hour drive leaving first thing in the morning, play the tournament and coming back the same day arriving at 2 am after playing out the T8.

If you read a lot of posts it's clear that a lot of people think the solution is pretty much the same.  North America lacks the big sanctionned tournaments.  Without these the value of owning power is little to none.  I like playing with as little proxies as I can so I do buy, or try and win as many as I can, but I can see why someone won't.  

I'd like to see if BOM or something of that level were hosted in Canada or the States, how would the attendance be.  I see regular power tournaments of 40-60 people which isn't horrible but usually that's a mox with very little for the rest of the T8.  You can't compare that with a tournament like BOM.

It'd be like having 2 free draws in 2 locations having a pontiac sunfire in one place and a ferrari in the second.   More people will show up for the ferrari.

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« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2009, 01:35:00 pm »

Either the disincentives (costs of all forms) need to be reduced or the incentives of playing need to be increased.

Its funny how Americans are always able to drill a problem down to money. Guess what, plain and simple, no one is obliged to be rewarded for playing. The fun is the reward, otherwise, why play? The price pool is there to make the thrill and competition more fierce, it adds another dimension to tournament play, but it should not be the sole reason to pick up your vintage cards. If you don't think its worth it for you, its not worth it for you. To me, Vintage is worth the money I spend on it. While many of you are argueing about how vintage is dying, I'm enjoying vintage to the fullest. The Vintage scene in Holland is in a new golden age. One of the forum members on TMD (onno, whats your TMD handle again?)  jumped into vintage recently, he had no cards after quitting limited and decided to purchase full beta power, before duals, fetch or even a tinker. Duncan helped him get up to speed and now he's at every Vintage tournament enjoying his broken vintage plays. That's commitment.
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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2009, 01:41:32 pm »

Either the disincentives (costs of all forms) need to be reduced or the incentives of playing need to be increased.

Its funny how Americans are always able to drill a problem down to money. Guess what, plain and simple, no one is obliged to be rewarded for playing. The fun is the reward, otherwise, why play? The price pool is there to make the thrill and competition more fierce, it adds another dimension to tournament play, but it should not be the sole reason to pick up your vintage cards. If you don't think its worth it for you, its not worth it for you. To me, Vintage is worth the money I spend on it. While many of you are argueing about how vintage is dying, I'm enjoying vintage to the fullest. The Vintage scene in Holland is in a new golden age. One of the forum members on TMD (onno, whats your TMD handle again?)  jumped into vintage recently, he had no cards after quitting limited and decided to purchase full beta power, before duals, fetch or even a tinker. Duncan helped him get up to speed and now he's at every Vintage tournament enjoying his broken vintage plays. That's commitment.

I think I was a little unclear; let me clarify. When I say disincentives, I mean things that make people not want to play, which, yes, does include things such as monetary costs (card costs, travel costs, venue costs, tournament entry fee costs, "extra" food costs created by having to not eat at home, hotel costs, etc.) but also things such as time lost (traveling to a venue, time lost due to a tournament not being well run, time lost scouring eBay for a bargain to get cards cheaper or finding cards at all), or the tournament just not being fun (broken bathroom, no air conditioning, players are jerks, deck doesn't win, deck isn't fun to play, opponents' decks aren't fun to play, restricted list changes too often to allow for consistency, etc.). Benefits include things such as prize support, yes, but also the community, how fun the event is, how good the venue is, and so on.

I guess I fell back on my economic background without explaining in full.

Also, I think it needs to be pointed out that nobody is suggesting that the European model is wrong or should be changed. In fact, I think it seems to work really well. Instead, I think we're more concerned about fleshing out and handling the issues on the American side, whether those issues are the same or different.
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« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2009, 01:57:21 pm »

Quote from: Yare
The fact that one can point to one person who did all this travelling doesn't everybody can (or even should) be travelling across the country or world to play Vintage. While I am glad for Itou that he has the money, willingness, and devotion to the format to do this (and surely applaud his victory), being able to point to one guy (or even twenty) doesn't somehow reinforce the idea that the US's Vintage tournament system design is broken. There are plenty of other things that can be (rightly) pointed to, but this isn't one of them.


Quote from: Apocalyp
Your missing the point of what I was saying.  First I mentionned I was from canada and the same destination would cost about 1000$CAD and then there's food and lodgings.  Like you said I agree anybody with a decent job and who wants to save for it can.   That is at least true in a bubble.  When you consider that most people don't have Magic and Work as the only 2 things in their lives, it invalidades that perspective.

As an example.
I travel for work a fair amount actually, so I try to spend as much time when I'm not working with my GF.
I've got pets.
I play hockey
I go fishing
I have various outings outside the city with friends and family
I have season tickets to a professional sports team.

I'm not pointing to 1 player nor am I pointing to 20... I'm pointing to 300+ players that are willing to travel across Europe to events like BoM. EuroVino etc.... as for the comment Apocaly made... the difference is about 150 USD compared to flying from Toronto instead of New York (so yeah it costs more but try getting to the best fishing spot in the world, I bet traveling there from place X or Y also will differ depending on where you start etc etc)

On Apocalyp's other note I work 50-60+ hours a week, have a girlfriend, friends, play in a band, do all kinds of trips (been to London, US, Germany etc this year alone not to mention last year which was even more nuts) and still find time to play, host and write about Vintage... It's truly a matter of priorities.

Just to give another example why didn't 20+ NE players show up @ the ICBM open? (not bashing NE players here because Ohio players also don't show up for big events in NE so don't get me wrong here guys you know I love ya Wink ) it's only some where between 110-140 USD to fly from Boston to Milwaukee say you pay another 100 maybe 150 in logding, food etc and you're paying the exact same amount we Europeans pay to travel to BOM or EuroVino...it certainly can't be the investment because there was a full set of Power on the line... nor could it be the availibility of power (it was a proxy event) etc etc... why aren't people traveling these relatively small distances ? Sure I understand you're not going to pay $1000 to fly to Europe for a Mox event but then again... like Zieby said, paying $1000 for an event like EuroVino and seeing it as a "vacation trip to Milan"  is certainly doable right ? I'm just pointing to the overall trend I'm seeing..

Quote
traveling to a venue, time lost due to a tournament not being well run, time lost scouring eBay for a bargain to get cards cheaper or finding cards at all), or the tournament just not being fun (broken bathroom, no air conditioning, players are jerks, deck doesn't win, deck isn't fun to play, opponents' decks aren't fun to play, restricted list changes too often to allow for consistency, etc.)
I'm sorry but this is just part of any hobby that makes you need to collect something you need to be competative and spend time in the big bad world with other twenties-something people which might not share the same opinion about personal hygiene like you. These are things that shouldn't spoil your interest in attending events... it's all part of playing competative.. I've played in PTQ's that had these types of situations going on and that just shouldn't be a factor for you imho.

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« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2009, 03:11:02 pm »

Proxies contribute to lack of commitment
Proxies went out of control in America.  One only need to view the 1st place decklist of the Mishra's Workshop 15 proxy tournament in Los Angeles from several months ago.  Bazaar was proxied however many other cheap cards such as Angel of Despair were also proxied.  Angel of Despair.  Honestly?  That is unfortunately not the only event in which proxying of this type occurs.  I have spoken with many players that said they have proxied Force of Will and Polluted Delta.  This is ridiculous.  These cards are not extremely expensive.  These are cards that also have uses in other formats.  Proxying these cards shows a high level of apathy and lack of commitment.    

Entitlement
Americans have an amazing sense of entitlement.  They feel they are entitled to things beyond their means simply because they are Americans.  They are entitled to massive homes even if they have little to zero income.  They are entitled to new cars and new clothes, even though they have little to zero income.  That was the era of living off lines of credit.  That era is over.  
 
You read players post comments such as "unlike you, I have to make my rent payment and/or car payment therefore I NEED to sell any of my tournament winnings for money".  Look, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you cannot afford to play Vintage.  In fact, in your current life/financial situation, you really cannot afford to play in ANY competitive MTG format.  You are not entitled.  I will not tell you to play standard because I also understand that the rapidly changing standard environment is also very costly.  To you, I give big brotherly advice to attend school in order to get a better paying job.  Work hard at it and someday you too can afford a hobby.  

Sure free vacations are nice, but they shouldn't be the only reason you play (which seems to me is the reason most people even attend events in the USA if you go by what people tell me) it just seems weird to me that the current Vintage World Champion has the ability to travel to France, USA and what not from his country of origin and you guys can't get a car filled for a 5-6 hour road trip... that's all I'm saying... something is wrong with the attitude.... certainly there are enough Vintage players in the US to fill a SCG P9 event with 200 people?

European Commitment and America's Lack of Commitment
Its about commitment to a concept, commitment to the game.  The Americans, for the most part, lack this commitment.  That is why they do not travel a rather short distance for a large Vintage event.  That is why many of them sold off their power cards.  Little by little, Europe on the other hand, decided that a Vintage community was desirable.  Europe invested in developing their Vintage community.  Europe has a passion for Vintage.
 
Americans figured that they could have it all.  They cleverly figured that they could have their Vintage (sell their expensive cards) and also have their XBOX.  To put it simply, Americans sold out their Vintage Commitment.  

On the subject of misunderstanding, I suggest you review TMD's Rules more carefully before posting again.  Specifically, I advise you to read Rule III, Inflammatory Posting, Rule VI, Prohibited Actions (political discussion), and Rule VII, Major Infractions (trolling), as your post violates all of them.  

I don't normally do this, but since the substance of your remarks was so egregiously off-base that other users might be tempted to correct you, I'll address the essence of your message, inflammatory as it may be.  The United States housing crisis came not from a sense of consumer entitlement but from a lack of basic financial literacy in the lower socioeconomic strata.  If a mortgage broker is telling you that you don't need a down payment on a $300,000 home and that your $39,000 gross income is sufficient, and when you see other people with comparable backgrounds to yours making those sorts of purchases, the reasonable inference, especially for someone without a working knowledge of finance, is that this is how things work.  "Entitlement" has nothing to do with it.  And, I might add, Europeans fared little better than Americans in terms of financial sophistication since they bought into C.D.O.'s and securitized mortgage debt packages just like everyone else.

As for your remarks about the motivations and thought processes of American Vintage players versus European Vintage players, I'll presume you haven't interviewed a statistically significant number of Vintage players in America versus Europe, and so you're either intentionally trolling or at least superimposing your own prejudices over an issue that's far more complex than you're willing to acknowledge.  With respect to commitment to Vintage, I'll simply say that competitive Type One, and this website, were created as a labor of love by Americans, for free, and I won't stand by and watch you denigrate their work.  Without the devotion of Americans there would be no Vintage community.  

Relatedly, because the American Vintage community started competitive Type One as we know it first, Vintage players in America have gotten older and need to balance several obligations alongside Magic, like a a full-time career, maintaining a family, and paying down student loan debt that's orders of magnitude beyond what people in Europe need to deal with.  This is not "selling out."  It's called "growing up," which I suggest you look into trying for yourself soon, especially if you plan to remain a member of TMD much longer.  Full Warning issued, and if you incite this kind of conflict on this site again, you will be summarily banned.  

To everyone else, so there's no ambiguity:  The discussion of the issues raised by juzamjimjuice is over.  If you have anything to add, contact him via PM.  I'm sure he'll be happy to expound on his conclusions about the character of Americans vs. Europeans.  I don't want to see it on the boards.  I respect America's, and Europe's, representatives on TMD too much to see them dragged down into this.  -DA
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« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2009, 03:47:10 pm »

Quote
Just to give another example why didn't 20+ NE players show up @ the ICBM open?

Just speaking for myself, I don't see a reason to travel that far to go to a tournament, despite the size of the event . . . we have like 2-4 tournaments a month in New England, and the TMD open happens twice a year.

The only reason why I would want to travel anywhere outside of my locale would be to experience a different meta/player base.  Even then, I could drive a mere 3-4 hours to New York, or 5-6 hours to Pennsylvania to have the same benefit.  No flying required!

Completely off topic:  I do plan on attending a Blue Bell or N.Y.S.E. tournament eventually.  From what I've met of you guys, you're all upstanding and outstanding players.
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. 

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« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2009, 05:46:35 pm »

Quote from: AbdullahTheButcher
Just speaking for myself, I don't see a reason to travel that far to go to a tournament, despite the size of the event . . . we have like 2-4 tournaments a month in New England, and the TMD open happens twice a year.

The only reason why I would want to travel anywhere outside of my locale would be to experience a different meta/player base.  Even then, I could drive a mere 3-4 hours to New York, or 5-6 hours to Pennsylvania to have the same benefit.  No flying required!
Doesn't this sum up nicely why P9 events don't see huge attendence? I got 2 Vintage events coming up in the next 3 month's and those are all a LOT closer to home then Eurovino (which is the 3 event I'll be playing) why do I attend EuroVino when I have Vintage events coming up much closer to home? Because playing for P9 is awesome, because the roadtrip is awesome, because I have the time to spend 5 days in 3 month's on my hobby. I don't feel spending 5 days in 3 month's is that huge a time investment and I don't think the money I'll be spending to get to and from those events is a huge investment for the sheer amount of fun I'll have.

This illustrated exactly what I mean by it's the attitude of the players along with proxies that's having an impact on the US Vintage Scene.
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« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2009, 05:50:00 pm »

This illustrated exactly what I mean by it's the attitude of the players along with proxies that's having an impact on the US Vintage Scene.

Is this to suggest the attitude is wrong or just different?
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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2009, 06:00:29 pm »

I don't feel spending 5 days in 3 month's is that huge a time investment and I don't think the money I'll be spending to get to and from those events is a huge investment for the sheer amount of fun I'll have.
well that's it then, crisis averted, all we need to to to fix US vintage is to make the tournaments more fun. We could start by removing the requirement that players recite a passage from 'A Tale of Two Cities' in order to register.  We could also do away with the mandatory cavity searches to prevent cheating, and stop requiring that players interact with the judging staff in Esperanto.
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« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2009, 06:14:04 pm »

@Yare,
Just different and you should be realistic about what this means. With this attitude being most common with the majority of the community (not saying this is right or wrong or even if most of the community does indeed have this attitude it just looks this way) it's illogical to ever wish for 200+ people events. Having 100-120 ish local events (AKA ICBM open type deals) is the best you get and there is nothing wrong with it. This just means people should adjust their expectations. Apperently the "old days" of having HUGE (200 player) P9 events is gone and accepting this would mean: There is nothing wrong with US Vintage that needs fixing but times have simply changed.. take this as you will, we Europeans just have a different attitude (which isn't better / worse)
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« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2009, 07:19:02 pm »

I would like to chime in with my two cents on this subject.

For those of you who don't know me, I have been playing Vintage (as my primary Magic format) for almost 9 consecutive years now.  I have seen a lot of stuff, played a lot of tournaments, and have witnessed first hand the way the format has changed over time.  When I was younger between the ages of about 9-12 I played Magic and was always drawn to Type 1.   The reason was that that the cards were so cool, and so powerful.  Also, the cards were rare and I the older kids at my local card store--who were better at Magic than I was--had the Power 9 and it made their decks much better than mine.  So, over the summer I mowed grass, did extra chores, and did anything I could to make extra cash and I bought the good cards and Mana Drains.  And, I got better at Magic and was able to do well in tournaments with my newly acquired Power.  When high school rolled around I was more interested in playing in bands and going out with girls and I sold all my cards.

I came back to Magic when I went of to college.  Many of the people in my program played and would lone me decks or have me draft with them.  It was like putting on an old pair of shoes.  The game was fun and fresh as it was when I was 10.  It is a great game.  But, it made me nostalgic for my old Mana Drain deck from the past that I had enjoyed so much success with.  So, as I won store credit playing Standard I would stockpile it and put it into Power and Drains.  When I played in my first Type 1 tournament after getting back into Magic my deck had 4 Mana Drain (Drains were only like $25 at the time) and an Ancestral Recall.  There were obviously no proxy tournaments at this time.  I did ok.  I beat a Suicide Black deck, a Sligh deck, and then I played against a guy with a fully powered deck.  The games were close.  I managed to squeak out a game one where I mana screwed him with a couple of Wastelands and Gorillia Shamaned away his Moxes.  In game two we were in a similar situation.  I couldn't really see any way for him to come back into the game and then I got my first taste of Yawgmoth's Will.  I had been out of the game for a long time and I had never seen this card before.  He had one land in play and he cast Black Lotus and Will.  Disaster.  Game three was more of the same.  And, I lost.  I made top 8 and then he beat me in the top eight again.

It didn't make me want to quit Magic, and it certainly didn't make me want to quit Type 1.  The one thing that tournament instilled in me was a desire to own Black Lotus again more than ever.  I eventually saved enough cash and pooled enough store credit and draft winnings to get a few more pieces of power.  I ended up getting Lotus next, followed by Walk and Sapphire.  I then started to play in local Vintage events every week.  Back in 2002-2003 there were multiple Vintage no-proxy tournaments per week.  There was a tournament at a card shop called "Awesome Comics" in Wyndott MI that held a weekly power tournament on Wednesday night.  (at the time Moxes were worth about $125 each) and they would get about 50 players).  I was able to win that tournament a few times and finished off my power 9.  Mind you, I was able to win power with my deck that didn't have all the power against other people who did already have the power 9.  What I wasn't able to win I could trade for.  Also, I lost a few times in that tournament to well positioned un-powered decks.  There was a good mix of different skill levels and powered deck levels at the time.  That tournament is actually the place where I met Mark Biller for the first time, where he was piloting a powered Lich/Mirror Universe deck!

Awesome Comics ended up closing down and the Vintage moved to another store called Pandemonium Games in Livonia.  We played there from about Onslaught-Kamigawa.  For the two years we played at that store we consistently had a game every Monday night, without proxies, sanctioned, with between 15-30 players--with our best attendance hitting 51 players!  Who came out just to play for store credit on a Monday night.  Monday Night Vintage is where many of the notable Michigan players came up and got good:  Myself, Justin Droba, Mark Biller, Josh Franklin, Ben Perry, and Paul Nicolo all played there every Monday night.  Paul came up in that game starting without any power, in that field of those players who were all fully powered at that time.  He later went on to Top 8 Vintage Champs, A SCG P9, and to win the RIW P9.  Josh Franklin when he started playing at Pandemonium only had A Call, Drains, and a Walk.  The thing that was common in this game was that everybody wanted to play, everybody enjoyed playing, and that everybody who didn't already have power was working to get the pieces they needed.  And, eventually did as those two years went by.  Also we would keep tabs on our Eternal rating and try to surpass each other to see who was the best player in the State.

Once Proxy tournaments rolled around--although they were fun to attend and compete against other players--it was unknowingly to me the beginning of the end.    We allowed our local tournament to play with proxies.  Some people stopped playing because they thought proxies were lame, many people sold their power because they didn't need it anymore, nobody really cared about getting power, and the scene fell apart.  Of all those players Josh, Mark, Justin, and Ben, I am the only one who still owns my Power 9.  (I even sold mine at one point, but later reacquired it).

The point is that there is actually something to owning the actual cards and appreciating them that is important to the format.  Proxies undo that aspect of the game.  You don't really appreciate how good Yawgmoth's Will/Black Lotus is until you have to play without it against somebody else who has it.  There is also something very cool about using your own real expensive Black Lotus (that you worked overtime to buy) in a game to cast Yawgmoth's Will.  The proxy system gives people the sense that they are simply entitled to cast Black Lotus in every Vintage tournament they play in--but, back in the day casting Black Lotus was something special that required a big investment in the game and in the cards to do. 

I have up until recently been a supporter of proxies.  I always owned my card and wasn't interested in playing with them, but I wanted to give other people who didn't own the cards the opportunity to compete and experience the format that I loved the best.  The problem with proxies is that it doesn't actually make people appreciate Vintage, it just allows them to play the format without an investment.  And while this seems good on the surface, it is actually the very fact that has been crippling the format over time.  People don't make an investment in the format because they don't have to under the proxy system.  My belief was always that if people were allowed to play with proxies they would want to acquire the cards through winning them or buying them later once they had gotten a chance to play it and like it.  But, people largely, don't behave this way.  Proxy Vintage becomes a format where people never need to actually get the cards to play competitively, and it destroys the local scene.  It is impossible to host non-proxy events because people have the attitude of "why would I play without proxies when I can just play proxies somewhere else." 

Champs reminded me of something important.  It is actually more fun to play with actual cards.  It just is.  To see the actual picture, to not have to figure out what some kid has scribbled onto a revised plains, it makes a difference. 

The people who actually care about Vintage still exist.  If you truly love to play Vintage you will play regardless of whether or not you can sleeve up the full Power 9.  And if you can't it will give you much more incentive to save up for it.

It costs about $3000.00 to buy the Power 9.  That is not an unreasonable investment over time to make in a hobby that you intend to play for a very long period of time.  Not only is it money put into a hobby, it is also an investment.  If there were no proxy tournaments, and investment in power would be one that would likely produce a profit over time.

Anyways, I have more on this subject will post later.  Sorry about the sentimentality. 

Cheers,
Brian

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« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2009, 07:32:40 pm »


The fact is that the more weplay and the time goes, the less aviable power you will get, and after power, you'll have more and more problems to acces to Bilands, than Force of Wills, etc.....

Proxies are the future of vintage in my point of view... Simply because 17 years after, the power print run is too low.



Yeah, because 18,000 printed copies of Black Lotus is not nearly enough to support a couple of hundred Vintage players.   

Oh wait...
Wizards would never go for a Vintage Grand Prix simply because of card accessibility concerns.

That is off the table, not even up for discussion.   

It seems pretty paradoxical to suggest that there are enough cards to support a vintage player base but not enough to support a sanctioned, GP/PT level event. 

No matter how you argue it, Vintage has the highest entry costs of any Magic format, and if you were to eliminate the one method we have as a community of reducing those overall costs, you *WILL* see a decline in new players.  Now, you argue that we're better off placing our emphasis on higher player retention than on higher rates of new players; that's fine, but I posit that the increased number of retained players from forcing ownership (of several thousand dollars worth of goods) is less by a magnitude than the number of new players who would be attracted in if they're allowed to circumvent *SOME* of the costs (Remember, nobody's advocating 75 proxies here; you have to already own at least a couple hundred dollars worth of cards to compete even in a 15 proxy field).
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« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2009, 08:23:44 pm »

I think at the peak of vintage somewhere 2004-2005 the highest attendance at waterbury was like 210 players.

I ran my tournament in june 2008 and got 125 players and was more then happy with the attendance.
My november tournament got considerably less, but it was my fault as it was a bad time to schedule a tournament all around.

I think it would be more then reasonable to set up a quarterly P9 series something like what Star City used to do.

I'm currently looking into doing this for 2010, with a giant double P9 event every 3 months.

I think losing the large scale vintage events has hurt the community.  There used to be nothing cooler then getting a carload of friends together and traveling to richmond or syracuse or chicago for a P9 tournament.  As star city moved away from sponsoring vintage events, i think that had quite a lot to do with the decline of tournament attendance overall.

I personally love to go out to big events with friends.  Steel city was a blow out attendance wise but was a great road trip.
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