Glad everyone had fun! I wish i could have made it, but there is only a week left to spring break so of course that means i have two exams left to cram for. 

Machinus, think about it.

Firstly, this new card boils down to a card that's merits are on par with rampant growth. And then look at the ACC, it is completely useless now in terms of short or long term advantage really, it just becomes a 0cc cantrip if you control a forest. Not exactly what i had intended. The card originally had the potential to net a green and a card turn one or accelerate an entire turn of mana development much like an early time walk for a green. Obviously broken.

By splitting the card into a ritual piece that actually accelerates at the significant cost of a card gives you the fair ritual.

The second card gives you alot more flexability by making it basically an "elf" early game as far as mana development goes or just cantripping itself in the late game.

Both cards seem good to me, but no longer the redic broken half a gush and an exploration to boot it was..

OK OK, how about this:

Boon of Exploration
G
Sorcery
Put a land from your hand into play tapped,
Draw a card.
"Exploration begets opportunity for those brave enough to mount it."

and

Quirion Exploration
G
Sorcery
You may return a forest to your hand instaid of paying Quirion Exploration's mana cost.
You may play an additional land this turn.


Some one come up with something better for that name... yikes.

Which is why this was intended to be an insant. It had the utility to be decent to pretty good at times but never something like fact or fiction, so at sorcery speed this card is never going to be powerfull enough to lose hinder mana or whatever garbage they print next. Are we still certain that this can not be printed at instant speed? And if not, we should probably make this a "you may then put a land from your handinto play tapped" and remove its ability to ditch non lands etc. As a sorcery it probably deserves the land drop as an added benefit at the 3cc instaid of a drawback.

So

UG1
sorcery
Draw two cards. You may put a land from your hand into play tapped.

Allright i concede instant status entirely, and pretty much all interest in the idea of using this card someday, but i can't argue with the facts, this thing would never get printed as an instant. Is everyone ok at UG1 as a sorcery?

UG1
sorcery
Draw two cards, then reveal a card from your hand. If it is a land put it into play tapped. If not, put it into you graveyard.

Yes i understand that its a "ritual" more in the flavor of green. The "ritual" part of this card can only be used to net green mana or force you to replay a new duel in the new formats. Netting green/generic in a deck playing green means you will be laying permenants at an accelerated rate. I have no problems with this in standard or block. Yes it is powerfull and gives what ever else that is good in green in the format a huge boost, but perhaps i have something against green but that doesn't really scare me guys, outside of combo decks. Yes this is incredibly good in any deck that manages to use green as part of its combo, but green doesn't have much to offer combo outside of the obvious harvest usage and land grant in type one. Restrict this is type one, i don't care. If that makes the card good and ready to give green the card that actually gets its mana off the ground without completely exposing itself to being hosed then i have the job i set out to do.

HOWEVER i do think that the combo potential of this card may be too intense, perhaps dropping the ACC is in order and would clean up the card's flavor quite a bit. An actual green "ritual" flavored card is out of flavor, though i do have to point out that it is not unprecedented, obviously referring to cards like ESG and early harvest. But then again with the card draw this is not throwing away anything at all to recklessly do something else like black or red, it still has a distinctly green feeling too it. I am not really sold one way or the other i love the utility of this card. sigh...

With the dropped ACC how about something like boon of exploration for the name.

"Exploration begets opportunity for those brave enough to mount it."

Well, i have to say that is a major dissapointment, but I'm not so sure that WOTC will be inclined to follow there own policy. But yeah this card is probably too powerfull as written, but could the cost be bumped up to UG2 and maintain it as is. It still would be powerfull enough for standard and type two, think of it as the "better" inspiration which I'm sure no one has a problem with power wise. Once you reach 4 mana status we are talking about a midgame card, and this is not fact or fiction people.

I'm quite aware of the reason blue control works, do you think this card just happens to fit it like a glove? But it MAY have some power issues at it's speed, but at four we are talking about a stage in the game where one of three things is happening.
a. You are trying to restock and find an answer to a threat that slipped through in an aggro matchup.
b. You are in the development phase where you and your opponent are both playing for the late game.
c. Or you are in the tense stage against a midgame powerhouse where it lets bombs and some disruption loose on you.

Against A. this is not great, two new cards and a land drop which at this point you may or may not actually be able to utilize? its good but not broken.

Against B. this is a bomb, especially because in blue matchups he who has the most land available usually is winning.

Against C this is OK, if you get a window it sort of helps, if you don't its bleh.

At turn four this is only partly likely to give you a single card advantage and isn't likely to really "break" your curve unless your playing some sort of engine like LFTL. I am not 100% convinced this is too strong for a 3cc but i do know they are hating on blue and the combo of efficient counters and instant speed draw. But i am willing to concede the point to RnD, blue appears to still be alive despite the huge hit defying all odds so maybe they do have a point.

Lets look at this for instant UG2 or sorcery UG1, sound off people.

Which policy exactly? I know they are hating on blue, but they also are beefing up green, so maybe we could use that kind of fuzzy logic and just run with it. I know a card like this feels like it should be a sorcery because of its effect, but I'm sure there is some sort of precedent for this that was not in the realm of playable, anyone? The card would lose so much functionality as a 3cc sorcery, in fact it would become nearly useless. Trying to avoid that if at all possible

Hey kobe, i was wondering why exactly you dropped the black tutors. Yeah they are clunky but they do win games occasionally and i always have trouble getting the extra blue for the AR and the brainstorm, let alone for something as minimal as sleight. Was it because you thought they would be better in the real world? Because when you are going for the turn one break neck like you vs. stax then the tutors are probably better, but when i use the tutors i always go "all in" and cant do one of those stop with 2 permenant sources and an extra draw/land drop to finish it next turn and hope they don't drop something you don't want to see. Just curios on that. And yeah that oath matchup makes me shudder, chalice fow null rod ugh. Lets just hope no ones listening to ICBM 

And incidentally, if people are really expecting alot of combo at Richmond, which control decks would go to hate in the board? Slaver used to when TPS was big and it wouldn't be that hard for them to throw some labs in or something and that would be an autowin that with our new slow deck we could never beat. Basically, what do you think the chances are that people are going to be prepared for this? The deck feels sort of like affinity in old extended, incredibly powerfull and incredibly fragile in the sideboard game without and real good answers of its own.

I have seen R and D pushing these zany UR "damage games" for forever, never even getting close to something that is relevant to anyone but the biggest fanatic of having a chance of doing something almost worth the mana cost if it did it every time. Now as this card stands it is somewhat like firecat with a benefit of randomly being much better then that. I like how this is a card that would punish your opponent when he decides that since your playing UR counter burn (where this obviously shines) and removes his removal only to get hosed by a big hit and a bunch of cards/tutor. And since your opponent is likely to know what it is that you really need right now it becomes a psychological game, not a random chance if you use the tutor version (which i prefer). This means that the card is eligible for some actually playable power, which is totally cool!

However at a measly 4 Mana this card may actually be too powerfull. On turn four after dealing with your opponents threat turn three and if they attack with their second turn threat all the sudden you play this tutor a card and you may be able to race them, especially in multiples (incidentally, the fact that it can't tutor for itself is very stylish). It may fit more in the power level of a 5cc sorcery. But without really having a bunch of cards to compare it to for block/ type two relative power levels, it is hard to say.

Alright, again with the name problems, but something reflecting a search for new land that may or may not succeed, may be another exploration of some variety but here goes

-Cardname-

UG1

Instant

Draw two cards, then reveal a card. If it is a land put it into play tapped (untapped?). If not put it into you graveyard.

Flavor text reflecting on even if a search is unsuccessful in finding its objective, it still produces

I'm really hung up on trying to break the land drop curve, as a deck designer of wacky engine multi color beasts all my decks are mana starved and need to protect themselves with counters. I think it is time that slower more real control based deck gets its own 3cc amusingness. What do you guys think, if i saw this coming out in the new set i know i would be super excited!

Absolutely with the alt casting cost the thing is amazing, but I'm wondering if thats really so bad. I mean its the ESG effect everyone always wanted because instaid of having an alternate Grey ogre it has an alternate buildup option and it replaces the land you play if you take that option. I see now that this card has fallen to something much more similar to half a gush, but it is GREEN folks, not blue, which is obviously a strike against its power level. I'm wondering that if stands as is with the ACC if it is just to powerfull as the best of the one mana advantage rituals that have become the new standard (cabal etc..) but again, everytime i try to think of it as broken i think back to in what context? With land grant and storm yes obviously, the card actually came to me from that context, but where else?

I think this is the mana accel card that green deserves, a card that speeds up to 3 mana turn three without a significant sacrifice. Outside of type one it will fuel earlier counters and draw engines, as well as beaters, but i doubt it would "break" any formats outside of giving UG desire a card to wet its pants over.

Do you guys think its TOO powerfull as is, i could see knocking off the ACC and taking out the "ritual" part of this card.

and oh yeah..
Quirion Exploration
heh..

Yeah i just remembered that... suggestions people? Quirion something does have a certain ring to it though  :lol:

And i did think of making it an instant and giving it a sort of gush like feel, but it seemed like the card may become to powerfull as a trick at that point instaid of an accelerant.. But harrow did have that ability to dodge removal, hmm it may be possible. Anyone with a bit more knowledge of the current color pie have a suggestion on instant/sorcery status in green?

alright here it is

New Frontiers - G
Sorcery
You may return a forest to your hand instaid of paying Now Frontiers mana cost

You may play an additional land this turn

Draw a card

The card feels elegant and very powerfull to me, the type of card that gets put in every deck of the color for the type two format but its so simplistic and cool, i just love the feel of it. It can be a very small ritual of a green mana by replaying and retapping a land and replacing itself, very powerfull but confined to green, the color least able to really take advantage of short term gain. It also acts as a really cool land accelerant, a one shot exploration that replaces itself instaid of sticking around which has that green mana feel of building itself.

As to the name's flavor, the new frontier without ACC is nice, it gives the idea of spreading ideas and resources (drawing a card and playing a land). The ACC part might be that you needed to temporarily leave somewhere you already were to expand to a new place now and would come back to it later, not necessarily a "green" feel but i think its close enough to suffice. What do you guys think, i would LOVE to see this sucker in print.

(DISCLAIMER: I have been trying to find a drain deck I like to go with my new playset for the last two months and have not really found satisfaction with what I have played, though I have liked a lot of what I have found. I really like the idea of dark confidant, even if his power isn’t meant for drain based control, I wanted to at least give it a chance and see if something might be done. I don’t know if this really belongs in this thread, if not just let me know)


So, Bob is a draw engine that works best when you have many turns of little activity that threatens to actually take you out of the game, but instead involves resource wars where you both are utilizing your cards to develop and maintain board positions.. I think we can all agree that the great one is at his best when he is just sitting there drawing an extra card a turn and at his worst when you use your resources on your main phase to drop him only to see your opponent when in a turn or two before you can set up your defenses phid style and maintain control of the game.

So what do we need to do to make Bob work outside of fish and the stax matchups?

We need tools that make it so we can make it to the point where the opponent lost his early advantage of not playing a card like confidant (one that provides gradual overwhelming advantage and replacing them with cards that trump up early development (ritual etc)).

We need to have the resources to find (if necessary), play, and protect Bob with enough left over to make sure an opponent cant use this window of opportunity to resolve something broken and take us out of the game.

The tools we need also must address the point where bob is going the distance ever so slowly for us turn after turn and your opponent is throwing whatever they can muster at us.

And we need access to tools that answer powerful late game strategies of our opponents like an active welder and a lot of lands or a full grave and recoup capabilities etc.


 We can all agree that the number one effect for solving these problems is counter target spell. Immediately FOW and mana drain jump into mind. Additionally, mana leak, Misdirection, and duress stand out as additional spells that serve very well especially with the early game part of the bob plan and at least have some function into the late game which as far as I’m concerned is nearly a prerequisite for any disruption/interaction spell placed into the deck.

So when your hand has bob, mox, land, force, blue card, decent two other cards (land demonic tutor), it’s obvious that you are in good shape. Your game plan from the get go is drop confidant and ride it to victory as best as you can. We can all see that this is incredibly powerful when it comes up. The problem is not every hand can be so blessed. So what kind of draw engine can you play that fits into the theme of drawing a burst of early cards to try and get confidant rolling when you don’t draw amazingly and works well at setting up protection when you need it as you enter the later game.

Anyone who has played MDGifts or at least read about knows that I might as well have just DEFINED the power of merchant scroll. The idea of getting and protecting an early ancestral recall is step number one most hands and situations for MDG. As a result they play a lot of cheap countermagic to try and protect its early threat and ride its advantage to victory. The eventual plan is not the same, but the strengths of the scroll “engine� seem to fit the confidant strategy like a glove.

So we need our main proven counterspells supplemented by a few early game powerhouses, the maximum number of confidants and merchant scrolls to set up for the mid game with as little stress on our development as possible, and what else?

1. We have all seemed to stumble into the fact that the early tinker backed with a quick burst of cards and cheap disruption is a great way to “steal� wins and just all around incredibly powerful. Tinker colossus has a lot of synergy with the shell that is logically optimal for dark confidant.

2. The fact that we are playing for the long(er) game than most lists out there means that we need good efficient answer to late game powerhouse threats that faster decks can just attempt to shrug of early when they aren’t as powerful and win before they can come into their own, principally active welder, opposing confidants, and perhaps a full grave in some matchups. Such efficient tools are darkblast for all the critters out there, the amazing pithing needle for all its amazingness, and tormond’s crypt which you all know is a great tool for this format. We also probably need at least one bounce spell which we have easy access to any ways.

3. We need to be able to put the game away once we have reached the stage where bob has outclassed our opponent but we may be falling into the danger zone. Here a lot of people turn to tendrils to efficiently turn our big advantage into a big will and instant kill without a hitch. This isn’t the only place people are turning to tendrils ability to utilize tendrils ability  to turn one turn advantages into the W. (burning slaver, etc.) But here is the thing, doing that really requires something like gifts to really stack the grave and hand for an easy kill or a lot of turn to accumulate the resources necessary. It also either requires red mana for the wish and sideboard space or tendrils main for another almost dead slot. And it may even require other support cards like an extra bounce for storm. I am not sure if the card belongs or not, it certainly is powerful but it feels like it warps the deck in a direction that would be better suited to a gifts engine, not a confidant engine.

Maxx turned towards the power of tinker alone and decided that he would use angel to make sure he didn’t kill himself when an extra force is flipped or something. Again it uses up a slot. It may be a necessary evil, I don’t know yet.

Thirdly there is just utilizing what already most likely belongs in a deck like this, tinker colossus for a quick kill when the time comes, darkblast if things get hairy, and brainstorm when it is convenient to protect yourself from confidant damage.

4. What kind of tutor/broken presence do we have. Certain pieces are unquestionable, time walk and Ywin. Things like vampiric tutorand FoF or a gifts all depend on the other choices. You have to flesh out your deck to try and meet the other pieces so that they have a synergy as a whole so if you are going to play the tendrils, maybe gifts belongs etc.

Depending on how we decide to answer those questions fleshes out the rest of the deck.

Here is what my thought exercise and everyone’s contributions to the deck and similar projects has lead me to:

Draw Go 1,000,000.0
Permission 12
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
1 Mis-D

Draw Engines 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral recall
1 Fact or Fiction

Broke 7
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Interaction 3
1 Rebuild
1 Darkblast
1 Pithing Needle

Mana sources 24
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tolarion Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea


This build: I decided that once the initial decision has been made beyond base counterspells and dark confidant and brokenness, I needed to make the rest of the deck match that decision. Merchant scroll as I said has a great power early game and gives rise to quick tinker kills and early game position, so having the ability to search out a quick tinker makes a lot of sense.

The deck is based on the late game so the efficient answers to both late and early threats that can answer multiple threats were chosen for disruption. The fact that they are randomly very powerful early means that early search is yet more powerful.

The deck wants to see B early and it wants the ability to get black to stick around. So a swamp and four deltas made sense. It is rarely going to need a lot of generic so mana vault isn’t very useful in a deck like this. The same could be said in some regards to mana crypt, but its early game power isn’t really questionable, so it stays unless it tests badly (doubtful).

Mana leak over duress and for the most part mis-D. Its great early against every deck whereas duress and mis-D are more narrow. And even though duress is incredible in the prevalent combo matchup, I thought the blue count was pretty low and the early black mana is needed for other things and you can’t always have the swamp or jet so stressing the base was a risk I did not want to take preboard.

No gifts because the deck is not focused at all in its build on developing and utilizing an early crushing will so the synergy is not really there. Fact on the other hand can provide scroll target number two to keep going with the plan of huge advantage play confident and parity until they can not keep up anymore if AR wasn’t enough or confidant still has not shown.
Two cards I want to fit, tormond’s crypt and a chain of vapor, perhaps one or the other for a leak, but I cant figure out what else to cut, but a resolved oath would cause this list all sorts of fits even with a darkblast.
Testboard
4 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Rebuild
1 Tormond’s Crypt
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl’s recall
2 Old Men
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Gifts Ungiven


The list is not something much different from what people have already developed, I just wanted to focus it on the power of confidant and not try and utilize his power as a support for other established strategies. Again I am not sure if this really belongs tacked on here, but since this is just a thought exercise and not the introduction to a thought out tested and refined new deck, I did not really think it warranted its own discussion. I’m off to try and convince some locals that type one is cool, but this is jersey so testing against grow will only get you so far you know

Then perhaps we should conclude that intuition plays the role of the answer to decks that sought to overuse artifact mana denial stratagies (ala red stax variants, varios fish lists..). I was having alot of trouble with these decks and your right it certainly sets up the rituals and is exactly what the doctor ordered for TPS-esque TOA decks. But what it doesn't  do is answer the problem i believe TPS and its decendants have had since control slaver first hit the scene and then gifts, the fundamental idea of setting up and resolving one GG threat has bein enveloped by mana drain control and is being done more effectively. I dont argue that mana drain control is fundamentally "more powerfull" etc etc, im just suggesting that perhaps the ideas of TPS have already bein inherited and combo needs to focus on how it can beat control at what is essentialy their own game.

So now i ask, what would your UB maybe a splash combo deck look like if it was setup almost exclusively for preboard slaver and then again for preboard gifts and then what each list would look like for postboard. The premise is, what exactly do we need to do to win these matchups consistantly? What do we need to emphasize, is it a couple key interactions with powerfull spells we already play or is there something very different we need to do like bring in the bobs or maybe even something like sui and take them by surprise. You guys have tested the hell out of these matchups, so i know you guys have alot of insight into what im trying to get at.

For the last 3 major tournaments I have been too, I touted TPS in its more controlling last game route, like the Italians. I was just loving the gifts ungiven and am up to 3 myself because it is such a great winner, setting up the entire will kill with resolving one instant.

However, it wasn’t able to punch through drain based control without disruption to back it up. Id been trying to think of a way to make not only the gifts less of a bulky card, but more protection/disruption so I can keep up with the powerful control meta I expect. In retrospect, drain was the obvious answer, but not in tps where it just doesn’t really fit. I really like the idea of this deck, playing drain and the furnace (which a few meandeckers brought as tech to superhero in southern nj earlier this month, and i was definitely impressed, and they did give you credit, as an fyi) gives the deck late game viability, and not playing draw 7s is a huge boon, because they are always such a liability.

However, I have just a few questions on the article/deck:
1. The gifts of regrowth, will, lotus, and salvagers, you say they will most likely give you regrowth and lotus. But the question is, what the hell do you do with will when you can’t combo when it gets played! Your deck needs to cards to win, no?  Cause you need to win on your mainphase, and you cant possibly win the turn you cast will. Would you be better off going for lotus, demonic, vamp, and salvager. Than they give you both tutors or something to that affect. On second thought, how about a cunning wish in the mix so you can access shallow grave, I mean the mana needed to win is high, but this is an expensive, slower combo. Perhaps I’m missing something, but when you say, “they give u will and you just win” I know you don’t mean combo out so I wanted a clarification.

2. Why no maindeck vamp? Is it exclusively for sideboard access to maindeck tutoring, because the lack of such a powerful tutor in what still is a combination deck seems questionable to me.

3. No mana crypt? And how about mana vault for easier gifts mana? Or academy for explosiveness? I know you are taking a significantly more controlling route than tps, but I hear fast mana is good, and even hulk ran crypt, and this deck likes access to early mana too.

4. How powerful is the regrowth, does it really justify green?

5. And lastly do you feel you have enough fetchlands with only 4, it feels low for even a two color deck with the prevalence of wastes, especially with the need to have both your first two lands in play on turn two for drain?

Thanks for bringing a new control/combo archetype to the forefront and for a great article, I hope this deck is everything it looks to be <grabs plastics and a sharpie, its proxing time>