I think you should find some space for dredge return, you need to win as quickly as you can, especially game 1. With landstill, Mudd, and Fish all running 5 wastelands (strip),you must realistcally expect to be slowed down if your bazaar gets hit. Not running Return, frees up the deck and side, but also doesn't allow you to go all in. Dredge's power lies in speed and Virtual Card advantage,  you don't want to give those up
- 4 mask, + 4 Serum Powder
- 2 Nature's Claim ,-1 Ichorid +  2 Dread Return / 1 Flamkin Zealot (Maybe 2 Zealots JIC one gets removed with serum)

I like the riftsone portal Idea, goodstuff to help in Game 2 or 3, I'm looking for a foil 1 now Thumbs up!

To make things faster I use Black lotus, Lotus Petal, and Lion'e eye with Fatestitcher.
ghoultree will get countered and can't be cast once a sphere is up, so i'd pass on that.

Yeah, green sun's zenith, sorry about that. The pictures look simiilar. Thanks again

Hell Yeah first post of the New Year!!!
Dredge is easily one of my favorite archtypes and playing against hate is not only mentally taxing but very fun as well. I was hurt by the printing of relic of progenitus, devastated by Ravenous trap and the Uncounterable Bojoka Bog. Surgical extraction was meh, but with snapcaster became better. And mental mistep kills the cards we use to get rid of  hate. Now I'm ready to just break my dredge deck apart (kidding) with the printing of Grafdigger's Cage. The card is obviously bonkers against regular decks, its cheap and can be mainboarded. Is this the final act for Dredge and other graveyard decks?....at least till they make some better grave cards. Is there something Dredgers can do to fight back ??  

Great card for dredge post-sideboard. You can just cast it from hand, and keep pressure on, next turn bloodghast, thug, narcomoeba, or confidant. I used carnophage in his
place with a very attacking sideboard, and most hate just flat out missed me. With all the fetches, force, mental mistep,confidant, and fast bond, getting 2 damage consistely every turn can be a big up. With Cage being so house dredge will need some new tricks.  Just take out Troll and other useless cards and go straight up aggro.

Here's a side I've been using with Gravecrawler

4 Gravecrawler
4 Dark confidant
4 Vampire hexmage
2 Dark depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth

I play fatestitcher dredge and consistently win game 1 on turn 1 or 2. Here's a funky sideboard I been using and have gone 6-1 with. It's not the best but I've had luck
in two forms. 1st, Fatestitcher dredge wins so fast they can't get a bead on the deck, 2nd they mull into 4-5 cards looking for hate, that will miss

Side
4 Dryad Arbor (attacks for one and cabal therapy target, blocks factory and fuels bridge, also keeps confidant away thus eating life)
3 Green Sun's Zenith (gets dryad arbor)
4 Reverent Silence (hits oath,F-bond and multiple leylines, but gives opponent huge boosts in life, also FREE)
4 Nature's Claim

What's the combo? Even with Maniac and bazaar thats around 20 turns b4 you deck yourself. I understand you plan on dodging the hate much like transformable Worldgorger. I built a transforming sub-optimum Dredge/Oath. Casting the oath post board completely dodged hate, while filling the yard if no hate. How does it win ?? you answer is pretty vague, and 20 turns is a lot of time for an opponent tod something, other than demonic consultation, whats the combo ?

In game 2 how will you live long enough to cast Laboratory Maniac, keep him on the board, and mill yourself to victory, all while the opponent is trying to go off ?
will you still be able to dredge through the hate ? (leyline & Jailer specifically)

@Stormanimagus, 

I feel the deck that you posted is far underpowered to even be competitve. It's cute. 3 flusterstorm, 4 Mental Mistep, 1 Surgical extraction , 3 steel sabotage ???
Workshops would destroy that build. Dredge as well. And those 2 decks are pillars in vintage. Surgical extraction, while free and double free with snapcaster is garbage.
Extirpate is leaps and bounds better, IF you were to maindeck such a card, because you could really only snag a force of will, mana drain or gush. and against shops you'll look
at it and not even wonder why you lost.

I think people on this thread are looking to break snapcaster, when in fact you don't have to.
it's like breaking bob. He is already broken and supplements most decks by providing Card Advantge. Snapcasters role IMO, is to provide versitility, with a dash of Card Advantage.
Building around him is similar (note similar) to building a deck around Recoup. Sure you can get all your spells back from the yard, but the slots you give up playing useless junk
could be better served elsewhere. I'm not opposed to building around a card, it's just that those decks do good for 1 tournament due to their surprise factor and are easily beaten by more stable decks that have been cultivated for 10 years or more

Here is what snapcaster can do to SUPPLEMENT existing decks
- get double counters
- snag your bomb back (tinker, yawgmoth, tendrils, gush)
- get double disrutption (duress, spell pierce, stifle,)
- attack or block with instant speed
- Tutor again (mystical, vamp, seal, gifts,)
- Filter again (ponder, recall, preordain)
 
Using him as the tentpole for a deck is cute, but fruitless, because he totally relies
on what you have in the graveyard AND being able to cast it

personally I feel he shine's brightest in tendrils, and ad nauseum combo builds.
double duress, thoughtseize, and pact of negation, or Tezzeret-like control builds

OMG, this guy will totally change the format. He's that powerful. Even at 4 of, getting double duty out of duress, and attacking for 2.
then lock them out with jace. Or blocking confidant and then chaining vampiric tutor, This card is Unbelievabe.

In oath you could just play 2 Snapcasters and Oath into yawgmoth's will for the win> Tooooooo easy

even synergizes with jace to bounce the Snap Caster Back to hand and cast mana drain on opponent turn. Every deck will have to run it,
or get stomped by it (control). Attack with dark confidant, cast a small tendrils and cast it again and attack with snap caster. Tendrils has another body to take off life so the storm doesn't have to even be that big AND you can recast the tendrils, or a countered tinker.
WAAAAAAY Stronger than regrowth, not even in the same city. All the sorceries and Instants in vintage win the game, or create some sort of CA

my god One of the best cards printed in years, dark confidants blue brotha, definite format changer

For a long time red was my favorite color. Mainly because it had so much crap. I mean it literally got the lion's share of garbage cards. From unplayable dragons, to 7 drops that make 1 creature unblockable. Even now it gets cards that are just rehashes
of old better cards.
I liked red cause it wasn't ALL powerful, but a color I rooted for to breakthrough with it's potential and focus. So I played red alot as an underdog color. I guess I felt like an underdog in real life, so if I could win with red deck/cards, then it would translate to my real life and I could overcome any obstacle. So winning with red was satisfying. Even In vintage I try to splash red to play welder's, chewer's, grudges, wheel of fortune in combo, recoup in gifts. Just to give my decks that hint of red. One of my all time favorite cards is Red Elemental Blast, because its like the weakest color in the game blatanly standing up to the strongest color, like King Leonidas and the 300. "No we can't draw 3 cards, no we can't counter for free, but FUCK...YOU'RE.....TINKER!!!"  ---Spartan voice

But as I evolved into a deeper person, the color stayed stagnant, much to my dismay WOTC keeps giving red the shaft on diversity, while the other colors are flourishing in different directions. Especially green which is really evolving into a versitle color. The best red cards to come out in awhile are
Jaya, and Chaos Warp. So Although I play blue and black mostly, Red has a special place in my heart. I always look at the red cards first when the spoilers come out.....and I'm usually dissapointed ,

Personally, and not to offend anyone, but I think people who play mono-green are dumb. It's brainless and easy, also doesn't challenge itself

People usually play blue because its's good, and stopping someone during thier own turn or bluffing like you can is just ridiculous.

I hope everyone osts shares very thoroughly on this thread I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts

In Legacy they hang around 1 and 2 cc, In vintage the Magic number is 0. 3 of the Pillars use zero (bazaar, Workshop, FOW) . The Lotus, Mox and friends ramp us out way past 1 being a significant number in vintage. Bazaar doesn't use mana that much, and Workshop starts at 2 or 3 cc.

Yeah mental mistep can hit any number of spells true. But what are the best one casting spells in the game

Ancestral , Vampiric, Mystical, sensei's top....

These cards are great but they are a means to an end. They all get tinker, yawgmoth's will, tendrils, time vault, jace or whatever card you use to win even auriok salvagers. I'd rather have a card that could counter my opponents win conditions as well as anything that can grant card/board advantage. Most 1 casting cards aren't that powerful (hence why they cost 1 ). Would you rather stop the opponents dark ritual, or the ad nauseum. I'm just baffled how people think this card will have impact, it will be annoying at best. Has no application against workshops either that's what religates it to a sideboard card, and there are way better side board options. Relic and Leyline stop both goblin welder AND dredge. Yeah
Lemme side in my mental mistep hoping to hit your welder. When i could just Kill the graveyard and have a chance against dredge too.

@Hey SerraCollector, are you KNIGHT on MWS???? I play you sometimes i think. Ne way, I think you're looking at mental mistep to win battles instead of winning the war altogether.  Against fish I'd play deathmark over mental mistep. Since everything that's gonna kill you is green or better yet massacre. Swords won't kill you.
.Also ever played 2 spellpierce???? you' can't play 2 mental misteps to counter anything good. Spell pierce stops every 1st turn workshop play (if you're on the play) except for metal worker and Lodestone. Spell Pierce can stop you from losing to 1st turn Trinisphere,tinker, and lotus+vault+key. So anything that can do that AND be maindecked in conjucntion with FOW is in a class all its own
win the war, not the battle.  

I dunno, you could play noxious revival and gush into another gush, ancestral recall into something you played eariler. ad nauseum into something you wanted. Up storm count. get back vault, key, another mana
drain for protection, or another duress if you're going off.  the possibilites are endless. a few decks run regrowth, and it sucks to see them get a second crack at what they played earlier


I'm not saying Geosurge and Karn together. Geosurge might work in belcher, or in the future if belcher gets better cards. As for Karn, he will see play because of those people out there who WANT to make him good,
he's not bad either, but you do need metalworker to pull him off. He will get better as the game advances,
I believe. Basically he is spine of Isha x 2, which is okay.

also first turn channel with karn is a strong play, so is belcher w/channel, but he could be the 5th belcher


Mental mistep... I know I'll get some flack, but its not all that great. Spell pierce just outclasses the card.
it has absolutely no chance against workshops, the powerhouse right now, and in control, you'll be lucky if you get anything WORTH it. Yeah it stops vampirc, but I'd rather stop the tinker that vampiric fetched.
Rather spell pierce the other spell pierce. Its far to narrow of a card. Sure, it can be annoying, but the strongest cards in the game don't cost 1. mostly just the tutors and recall, and spell pierce can take care of those when it matters. It will just be FOW fodder....sorry

Just wanted to Arm you with the essentials for this set. Not much good stuff. Seems like they make alot of worthless cards that mirror cards we had along time ago. but NE way here is what you should be getting from the new set to add to your vintage collection

Karn, The Released. - Eh...I'd pick up 2 its good in belcher and someone wil try to make it good in stax, and other artifact decks, allthough you could way till the price cools.

Gitaxian Probe- get 4 its cheap, ups storm counts and is better than streetwraith (which you already have 4 of) all around good card with lots of potential

Phyrexian metamorph-  1 or 2, In workshops its a double of whatever you have reminiscient of steel sphere, or can copy an welder or blightsteel, or confidant, or your opponents timevault, uses are pretty good

Praetor's grip - 1 or 2 - Cool card will find some uses, fights for a grim tutor spot

Surgical Extraction 4 of,- more dredge hate, doesn't target player so gets around Leyline of Sanctity, can be played in any deck similar to ravenous trap
depending on price, I'd buy these later since these kinda cards always go down (cranial extraction, extripate etc etc.)

Beast Within - 4 of- its real good in oath as a 2 of. Luckily its an uncommon, but its foil version is getting expensive so get them while everyone's sleeping on it

Noxious Revival -1 or 2. Cool to play in tandem with ancestral recall, or brainstorm. Its free as well and another uncommon, any deck can use this card even dredge

Geosurge- 4 of- another belcher card, you could pass but its aight.
 
All in all this set sucks, Save for Blightsteel this whole block sucked, I mean Phyrexia's core ???? It's Phyrexia's CORE it should do something a bit better than gaining 1 life. Utter Garbage.

well said Dehla


I've been beaten by a deck with 4 goyfs, 4 pridemage, ethersworns, lightning bolts, and path to exiles.... That person was a rookie but geared his
entire deck to beating vintage decks, kinda lame but it happens, no amount of experience can get you out of some situations or reading the opponent either.

but lets not change the topic, we all know experience USUALLY trumps the opponent, but you will fall\rise to chaos theory from time to time.
I wasn't talking about more, lines of play and reads form the opponent, its not to hard to understand, is it? You have to have good knowledge of your deck and not make any mistakes (not hindsight mistakes) just the best play. but sometimes, your opponent is telling you what you should go for without verballizing it though

@SuicideKing
In some games, psyching isn't as relevent. your opponent plays trinisphere off workshop, only thing you can do is counter it or not. I'm gearing more toward, if you know the opponent is playing remora trap, and you need to initiate a strong play, analyzing how much resistence you're going to get, via body language and "tells" and probability (4 mana drain, 4 spell pierce, 4 FOW, = 16 cards, 16/60 = 1 out of every 4 cards - graveyard)
from that analyzation deciding to bait their counters, hold out for a massive topdeck, build up countermagic of your own (and if so, how much to trump theirs since they run a plethora of c-magic) or take another approach. Some psyching doesn't
work on some players simply because they don't know about it, other's will recklessly push through anything and will win sometimes or not. This is a micro-strategy that you turn on, and when you need it, you can summon it in, but once you do have it, you will always be doing it. Or for combo players, reading the opponent/his board arrangment/ and tells can easily let him/her know that they can go off without resistence. Some people play all of the lands they have in hand, but I always keep 1 if I don't need it, or 2 in hand and 5 mana open, so it looks like a FOW. Sometimes it works, sometime the opponent will be cautious, other times they barrel right through.





Yeah it's the brains way of organizing, has to do with the pictures as well, most people addjust by color as well, to make things easier to recieve.

I beleive Vintage to be the most cerebral format in magic. In vintage most every good card is at your disposal. Decks and schools of thought have been refined for years on end. Weeding out only the best cards ever made, and those to stop them (generally)
A cardboard darwinism.
Sometimes you can swing a match by making a crazy play, or topdecking your way out. Depending on your deck, and the sheer explosiveness of the format, nothing is impossible.

I wanted to get a topic going on how one win's a game using a more psychological method.

This begins with confidence in a deck, controlling nervousness, reading the opponent and so on. The cards will deal what they want, but its you who has to win over your opponent.

So i wanted to hear about the communities experiences and the way they think during a match.

an example is; If you're playing an opponent, how do you know they have Mana Drain?
for me I notice, they look at the Mana drain in thier hand, and then put 2 Blue aside
very close together, and pass the turn, creating sort of a barrier. so now I do that even if I don't have mana drain.

or when I use sensei's top, if I have nothing but blanks (3 Land) I will still rearrange them, look at my hand, and rearrange them again. Some people just look at the next three, see they are all land and put them back right away. This cues you to believe they have blanks for 3 turns. Most likely its true, but not always.

also, the mulligan. look at an opponents face the next time they mulligan, and they speed. Or how you know that stifle just ruined the entire game for your opponent

So I want to hear about your clues and cues, bluffs, fakes, mind games and intuitions
hunches and thoughts when playing. And also, how to stay in control when losing.
Do you notice your opponent arranges their mana in certain way, thus giving away their hand

*Note: That these instances are best applied to a tournament setting, where there is something at stake and stress is at it's highest
and to more control/combo/ichorid decks, as workshop and null-rod decks force the hand. but you can contibute on those decks as well*

Nice deck, only problem I see is that you may need another wincon, like empty the warrens or tinker-bot.
just in case someone plays leyline of the sancity, meddling mage, ethersworn or exiles the tendrils. having one tendrils is cool, but also
very ballsy and luck favors the prepared. No bounce for leyline either?

what's your clock vs no countermagic ?

and against counter magic ?

from my testing of the "tropical storm" I think it is very powerful, but MUD is a hard matchup if you don't get your pieces fast enough.
The deck has really explosive opening hands however, which makes me like the build. Here is what I've been fiddling around with, my mana base
doesn't seem to "flow" however so if anyone could help me on that part, I'd appreciate it.
- I like dark ritual instead of Cobra since you can play it again with yawgmoth's will, to up storm
- Preordain is wack.....but its the best we have so far : (
- Duress is no good against Workshop, they keep forcing the hand, spell pierce is awesome against them though
- I like thoughtseize, but with necro, fetches, fow, fastbond, & bargain.....

Here is my list

Accel

1 Black lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox pearl
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol ring
1 lotus petal

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
3 Preordain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce

4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Tendrils of agony
4 Duress

1 Fastbond

BOMBS

Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Necropotence
Jace, The Mind Sculptor


Mana Base

3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
3 underground sea
2 Volcanic island
2 tropical Island
1 swamp


Side

4 Ingot Chewer
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Empty the Warrens
4 leyline of the void
2 yixlid Jailer
1 Lightning Bolt



I'm Testing a Red sideboard) it has Ingot, which gets around a chalice @ 1 and thorn,
and can trade with a lodestone golem,
Empty the Warrens to race, or if they have Leyline of Sanctity or Meddling Mage on Tendrils.
R.E.B.....well it's just good. Lightning bolt for jace, and Dredge hate.


I'm trying to figure out a way to "Win now" wheter its Doomsday, Vault+Key, or oath maybe.

also does gifts or fact or Fiction have a place in this deck?

Jace pitches to Force, and bounces Iona, not to mention crazy advantage with confidiant. Top is kewl too
but...

Do not let the topic of this post change. It is about Bobby Tendrils and lines of play.

So with an oppening hand of
{Recall, Ruby, Confidant, 2 swamp, Vampiric, Dark Ritual} if the opponent drops oath on thier turn and passes, What is a good (not even optimal) line of play,
Note: You will be thinking at this point what can vampiric tutor get, because you are on a 2-3 turn clock.

well, what ur saying is true, what the opponent does, will play a factor in your decision making, but no matter what situation you are in, you are still going to need to make the best play regardless. If we are working with hypotheticals sure anything could happen and nothing. Ok so what if they do have Oath...they're is an optimal line of play (even after you cast Bob) that you will still have to commit to in order to win the game or buy more time to win the game. Same with Bazaar and Trinisphere.

So with an oppening hand of
{Recall, Ruby, Confidant, 2 swamp, Vampiric, Dark Ritual} if the opponent drops oath on thier turn and passes, What is a good (not even optimal) line of play,
Note: You will be thinking at this point what can vampiric tutor get, because you are on a 2-3 turn clock.

Every deck has a set strategy, its just that Bobby tendrils has to do a little more twists and turns to make everything come together, so "waiting to see" what your opponent does sometimes isn't the most optimal play.
Also, note that the starting hand is very important for this deck because something you do on turn 2, ends up becoming a factor later on because of the fragility
and power of the deck. not to mention there is little redundancy. So I'm just saying with the opening hands, which path(s) would you take.

Sounds like a good plan,


What if thehand consists of

{Recall, Mox Ruby, Confidant, 2 swamp, Vampiric, Dark Ritual}

After you cast confidant, would you use the vampirice at upkeep? or wait? If you were to use it, what would you tuor for???

Im a pretty good tendrils player, but to reach the next level with Bobby Tendrils, TPS, or even JaceStorm, There are Lines of play
that can either make or break the game. Sometimes you will lose on turn 11, but you really lost on turn 3, because you chose a different line of play. This is what makes these typ of decks very rewarding, yet very frustrating.

I see these type of decks almost like life, one so so decision, like getting an ok job instead of going to college could
not pay off as much in the long run. Or hooking up with the wrong girl, could have repurcussions later...get it? everything is connected

So I don't want to talk about "mistakes" that are unforseen e.i. Force of Will, but making the most Optimal Play when given a series of plays to chose from.

Here is my deck (to save time I just listed the cards that might not be in other decks)



All Power, All Artifact mana, Scroll, Force, Chain of vapor, Rebuild, Hurkyl's Recall
2 Jace 2.0
Lotus Petal
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Bobby
Mind's desire
Mana Vault

So assuming my opponent isn't playing Force or maybe even 1, what shoud I do if My opening hand consists of these cards???

{Mana Crypt, Underground Sea, Mox Pearl, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Demonic Tutor}

There are so many plays to choose, how can I win with this hand uncontested???
what about if its Force of will Contested ????

Just want some input, feel free to put up your own hands so we as a community can decide which is the most optimal play.
754,000 heads are better than one

I said, a long time ago "It has some flaws that will inevitably keep it from being number 1" therefore tier 2, or really not even that.

I even said "The Deck" wouldn't go very far. read my first post.

It never won anything even b4 the meta shifted, even dark times won something, and I (note I) felt that deck was below tier. Even WorldGorger

was better. "The deck" was garbage to begin with, If you played it alot one could easily see that.  It was just played because chapin "pushed it" that

it gained some popularity

Even Stephen Menedian said "Watch for this deck to do very special things in 2010" . What like fall flat on its ass?

I don't have to say anything anymore, I'm vindicated. To all those that said I sucked, my decklist was crappy, I didn't know how the deck was supposed to run etc... they can go suck my Molten Pinnacle-

well..... I think my point has been proven..." The Deck " was a dud...

very few showings and even fewer Top 8's and no 1st places. Seems like i was right,

And to everyone that doubted.....action speaks louder than words, screw your giant ego's

.
fatestitcher pitches for FOW, in the second game. he's basically free if you have open mana, and he powers up The Bazaar. dread return 3 of them for free.
Also taps sphinx, Iona, or any creature to let your swarm swing through. All around, one hell of a card.



As of late, Angel of despair seems to be working for me. She hits anything ESPECIALLY creatures. Primus and Terastodon both fall short of this.
if Oath sides in Blazing Archon or Platinum angel or welder (pithing needle lock)
you don't have to scoop up your cards. Also at the very least she can be pitched to unmask, AND
used for ichorid. At first I thought she was meh, but so many instances were the bigger guys couldn't get me outta of a jam, this Depressed Angel
spread her wings on my opponent and lead me to victory (sadly of course)



Hmm. nature's claim is only good, if you get it in the opening hand (even with Bazaar's goods). They will most likely be in your graveyard taking up a space
which could have been filled with some sorta dredge card or recursion.

Right now, I'm running a split of Ancient Grudge/ Ray of Revalation. If discarded not totally useless



I really don't like Sharuum, too many of those pieces will show up in opening hands and in mulls, making it frustrating, it's powerful.
but for any DBZ fan out there, Remeber when trunks was more powerful than cell, but to slow to hit him??? kinda on that level

What about Terastodon? i think he's good against the mud/stax match up, primus does well too

I'm not feelig realm razor. simply because. 1. toughness =2 , pridemage, exalted selkie, trygon predator, goyf, other zombie tokens
dark confidant.....etc etc will kills this guy, he is weak. 2nd. most stax decks, combo decks, and control decks, run artifact acceleration
so....getting rid of land may HAMPER them, but we want to slit our opponents throat and drown him in sulfuric acid. 3rd. power = 4
thats a 5 turn clock by itself, plenty of time draw a land, vampiric tutor, fire/ ice,. 4th, what if you wanted to use your bazaar or gemstone mine,
to seal the deal. Point blank, why drive a hyndai, when you can drive an ferari

Blazing archon, dunno, doesn't seem so great. seems decect, but once again his clock is low, iona is three turns max, probably less with zombie tokens
and the virtual card advantage she creates is brutal.

After testing dredge for a while now, I've hit a wall. the wall, simply put, is what creature leads
to the quickest, most complete victory in a dredge. Now i know it depends on what deck you are up against, but I've managed
to win/lose some games depending on my dread return creature. Some creatures are good, while others just let you "win more"
but anyway her are my choices, just wanted to see what you guys think, wheter good or bad. And I'm

Woodfall Primus- Gets rid of lands, vault, and reusable

Iona- locks them out after cabal therpy, no good on artifact decks

Angel of Despair- Same as primus, but flying, which can be the difference in a game

Sharuum the Hedgemon- can get alter, or portal. I like to get trinisphere if its early.

Sundering Titan- blows up lands, locks them out

Sadistic Hypnotist- totally obliterates there hand but weak attack, no good against mirror

Terastodon-  Still haven't used him to his full potential, anyone with any advice on this one, he's good, but better than Primus?

Laquatas champion- For slow games, attack slowly, get them into the red zone then ka-boom,

Sphinx of Steel Wind- Slew of abilities


So let me know what yo guys think of the usual supects, I'm trying to make my final decisions, as which one's to run over others

all you did was talk condescendinly toward me....

at its root everything you said was baseless, nor did you answer any of the scenarios that were asked upon.

and I'll still beat you with a simpler deck

@ mirariknight

@omni-strife

 - I just picked the deck up cuz i thought it was cool and innovative, thats all. and it is fun, but winning is also fun. And like the title of this thread
"The deck" has too many problems for me. If I'm not getting countered, I'm getting beat up. The deck is really complex to run efficiently, but even at its most efficient, it will still lose to decks that are more focused on thier gameplan, instead of being reactive and "holding on to one life"-which seems to be how the deck works. The mental investment of running "the deck" is far less rewarding than it's results. Doomsday was a very complex deck, and was very powerful, and above anything was just hella cool. "The Deck" takes a lot and gives too little.

but if thats your thing hey by all means....

the whole point of my argument was to see, if anyone faced the same problems with their deck, and moved on to other cards that had worked for them. I net decked Smennen list first. Played a lot of games. I saw what was working and what wasn't so i made some changes. I played against a couple more people with
the deck. Some ran loam, some ran mana leak, some ran pierce, one ran mishra's factories, one even ran nether void to completely lock the opponent out. so after talking, I wanted to see
where they were having problems, so we could address it and make a better card pool, a card pool that covered up some of the weakpoints "The deck" was having .THAT WAS ALL.

fire/ice doesn't work for me, its either countered or discarded, I prefer darkblast its reusable- any other suggestions

neither does mana drain- by the time i get 2 UU. the opponent has force and drain -any suggestions

swords works against sphinx and goyf- any suggestion?

what do you do after you lose a counter war and your oppnent tinkers for inkwell??? hurky'ls recall isn't in any list that i've seen- any suggestions
(I've blocked with a gorilla shaman to cast balance and it was countered, since i used my mana drain to counter tinker)

@ scifiantihero - Well, said, I could have said something to that extint, to give others a broader understanding of what I'm trying to convey. But some people's hubris
gets in their way "how can you fill your cup with water, when your cup is already full??

@FlyFlySideOfFry - Mellow out, All i'm saying is give it a try and see. Is your head so far up your rear, you can't see another perspective on something, a discussion is an exchange of ideas, no discussion if you keep telling me sotsw is worse than darksteel.


To the others though. I have tried several builds, even Smennen's build.I Net decked different builds, and played a few people with thier own versions of "The Deck" comparing and diseccting it. swapping things in and out, playtesting so forth and so on all in all trying to squeeze the optimal potential out of "The deck". Trying to raise it from a Top 8 spot (which it can get) to Tezzy- Like godness and domination....and it just wasn't there. TO ME, it lacks early game consistincy, and can't win
counter wars.

on a side note. I beat "The deck" with a sadistic sacrament BEFORE I even knew this new version existed. I played against it not knowing what to expect and
it still lost, I didn't change my gameplan or anything.