Dredge, and Dread Return Targets

[Soapbot]

After testing dredge for a while now, I've hit a wall. the wall, simply put, is what creature leads
to the quickest, most complete victory in a dredge. Now i know it depends on what deck you are up against, but I've managed
to win/lose some games depending on my dread return creature. Some creatures are good, while others just let you "win more"
but anyway her are my choices, just wanted to see what you guys think, wheter good or bad. And I'm

Woodfall Primus- Gets rid of lands, vault, and reusable

Iona- locks them out after cabal therpy, no good on artifact decks

Angel of Despair- Same as primus, but flying, which can be the difference in a game

Sharuum the Hedgemon- can get alter, or portal. I like to get trinisphere if its early.

Sundering Titan- blows up lands, locks them out

Sadistic Hypnotist- totally obliterates there hand but weak attack, no good against mirror

Terastodon-  Still haven't used him to his full potential, anyone with any advice on this one, he's good, but better than Primus?

Laquatas champion- For slow games, attack slowly, get them into the red zone then ka-boom,

Sphinx of Steel Wind- Slew of abilities


So let me know what yo guys think of the usual supects, I'm trying to make my final decisions, as which one's to run over others

[mikekilljoy]

I've being playing Iona and in the end it's always been the over-massive swarm of zombies tokens with a Flam Kin Zealot that wins the games.

[BruiZar]

my call is sharuum/iona. Don't bother getting 3sphere, get akroma's memorial or altar instead.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Blazing Archon - Never lose to Tarmogoyf blitz
Realm Razer - Better than Titan since it rfgs ALL of their land.

[Killane]

Blazing Archon - Never lose to Tarmogoyf blitz
Realm Razer - Better than Titan since it rfgs ALL of their land.

SotSW - never loose to Goyf Blitz (pretty hard for them to Blitz you when you can block one of them, and gain 6 effectively blockign a second one, and then swing back and gain 6 more). Also has other applications like winning the game.

Razer - ... and your Bazaar. In what situation is this truly desirable?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sphinx doesn't stop Eldrazi, DSC, infi tokens, etc.  Blazing Archon cleanly stops any opposing attacks.

Realm Razer is better than Titan against other decks with mana bases lacking basic land types.  Ie. Stax

[Killane]

Sphinx doesn't stop Eldrazi, DSC, infi tokens, etc.  Blazing Archon cleanly stops any opposing attacks.

Realm Razer is better than Titan against other decks with mana bases lacking basic land types.  Ie. Stax

Yes but why not just win when you return by running Sharrum and Altar? Archon seems like a Janky option - it hasn't been good enough in Oath for a while and it doesn't seem good enough here either.

As far as Razer, I again question under what circumstances it is desirable to remove your Bazaar? Unless you already have enough in the yard to win, in which case why not just do so, rather than remove all of ther land?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Razer is on the list for the same reason Titan is.  I happen to agree that neither deserves a spot.

Archon is almost certainly better than Sphinx since you'll never have the corner-case loss to 2 or 3 attacking Goblin Piledrivers.  If you want to dominate combat, you do it by killing all of your opponent's creatures or preventing them from attacking at all.

[Soapbot]

What about Terastodon? i think he's good against the mud/stax match up, primus does well too

I'm not feelig realm razor. simply because. 1. toughness =2 , pridemage, exalted selkie, trygon predator, goyf, other zombie tokens
dark confidant.....etc etc will kills this guy, he is weak. 2nd. most stax decks, combo decks, and control decks, run artifact acceleration
so....getting rid of land may HAMPER them, but we want to slit our opponents throat and drown him in sulfuric acid. 3rd. power = 4
thats a 5 turn clock by itself, plenty of time draw a land, vampiric tutor, fire/ ice,. 4th, what if you wanted to use your bazaar or gemstone mine,
to seal the deal. Point blank, why drive a hyndai, when you can drive an ferari

Blazing archon, dunno, doesn't seem so great. seems decect, but once again his clock is low, iona is three turns max, probably less with zombie tokens
and the virtual card advantage she creates is brutal.

[median]

Just for completeness in your inital list reveillark is a very decent target. You bring him back and sack to therapy for two trolls, then sack trolls and a zombie to any remaining returns for more trolls and zombies. Lark is kind of the singleton target that does what several FKZs do.

[meadbert]

If you are in a position to Dread Return, but you end up losing anyway then there are a few likely possibilities regarding what might have happened.

1)  Your opponent is about to Assemble Vault/Key.
2)  Your opponent is about to Yawg Win or possibly Naus Win.
3)  Your opponent is about to Oath up Fattie for win (Perhaps Overlord)
4)  Your opponent has some sort of hate (Platz/Ensnaring Bridge)
5)  Your opponent is about to "Out Aggro" you.  This almost always indicates a Dredge mirror.

Sharuum+Altar
Wins now versus all cases above except Platz.  Note that Altar wins through Ensnaring Bridge.
Portal allows for win through anything.
Takes up a lot of space.
2xSharuum + Altar = gg
1xSharuum + Altar = maybe gg, and atleast you can mess up top deck tutors stopping Vault/Key or Yawg from hitting.
1xSharuum, No Lotus/LED = The Suck
Prevents a diverse package.  Basically to make Sharuum worth it you need 3 so you cannot run 3 different threats or answers.

Terrastodon: Combines with Therapy to stop Vault/Key since you destroy any that is in play and discard any in hand.  Top decking both and mana to play it is unlikely.
Combines with Therapy to stop the Yawg win by ripping apart mana base and forcing a discard of any Rituals or other acceleration.
Removes Oath and Ensnaring Bridge.
Unlikely to be out aggroed, but still possible.
Good on its own.  Takes up little space.
Does nothing for Platz.

Primus:  Worse than Terastodon

Angel of Despair:  Worse at messing up mana bases, but crucially can remove Platz.

Realm Razor:  Cannot remove Fetches.  Does not remove Bridge/Platz.

Sundering Titan:  Cannot remove Fetches.  Does not effect certain land.  Cannot remove Bridge or Platz.  Not good for now.

Iona:  Does not stop Vault/Key.  Naming Black allows for Tinker->Vault or bounce.  Naming Blue allows for Yawg.
Block Overlord for 1 turn buying time.  (So does Stinkweed Imp, but Trample means Iona saves you a few life points)
Against Dredge Iona shuts off opponents Therapies and Dread Returns which may protect your Bridges and allow you to win an aggro war.

Hypnotist - Wipes out hand which is huge. 
Leaves you vulnerable to being outaggroed in the mirror. 
Does not help against resolved Oath.
Potentially weak against Mystical->Yawg.
Crucially loses to resolved Key with Vamp->Vault on the way.

Flame-Kin Zealot:  Frequently wins now.  Wants a lot of tokens in play.  Not good on its own.  Does not remove hate.

Champion:  Give me Zealot although Champion does dodge Ensnaring Bridge.

Sphinx of the Steel Wind:  I don't get it.  Why is he good in Dredge?

Blazing Archon:  Good against Oath and Dredge.

Cephalid Sage/Lost Truths:  Mills a ton more cards to find another Dread Return or more Therapies.

Yosei, the Morning Star:  Combos with Hypnotist. (Tap them out and empty their hand)  Taps out Aggro. Generally good on its own.  Needs a sac outlet to be worth it.  Does not handle resolved Oath well.  Does not handle hate.  Terastodon is generally better.

Eternal Witness:  Gets Bazaar to act as a Cephalid Sage and trigger Landfall.  Gets back Chain of Vapor if needed to bounce Platz.  Could get Force to stop a top deck tutor.  Gets Strip Mine if you run it to act as a mini Realm Razor.  All effects are relatively weak, but flexibility is nice.  The trouble is who must find room for Force+ Chain + Strip Mine which might not be practical.



Because Vault/Key is so easy to assemble, the win now options are best.  That leaves Sharuum which is faster but takes up more space as one option.  The other is Shinx of Lost Truths + Flame-kin Zealot which takes up less space but is Slower.  Crucially Sphinx + Zealot allows space for Angel of Despair.  I have been seeing Zealot and Sphinx in the most top 8s recently.

The third option that is decent is the Terastodon + Hypnotist option.  Takes up a lot of space and cannot remove Platz, but they combo to lock your opponent out now and each is strong on its own.  This would be better if ANT or Long were to become forces again.  Against Tez it is too easy to lose to Vault/Key when you only have half the combo or to Tinker->Platz.  I consider this a close third to keep my eye on.

[Beralt]

Woodfall Primus does have Trample as an advantage over Terastadon, but agreed Tera is mostly better.

[Mith]

They're all "win-more" cards...you don't need any of them.

Look, Dredge is at the cusp of finally becoming a serious deck that consistently top-8's or wins. We need to be focusing on stream-lining this beast instead of taking up space with unnecessary cards.

Flame-kin is the only return target I plan on keeping...most of the time I just bring back a troll and beat-face with it.

2 dread return, one flamekin...that's it. Use the space to increase the resilience of this deck. I almost want to cut Fatestitcher to follow Matt's advice and bring in Chalice. Run two naturalize maindeck...that's better than a random return target that can blow-up vault/key.

[meadbert]

They're all "win-more" cards...you don't need any of them.

Look, Dredge is at the cusp of finally becoming a serious deck that consistently top-8's or wins. We need to be focusing on stream-lining this beast instead of taking up space with unnecessary cards.

Flame-kin is the only return target I plan on keeping...most of the time I just bring back a troll and beat-face with it.

2 dread return, one flamekin...that's it. Use the space to increase the resilience of this deck. I almost want to cut Fatestitcher to follow Matt's advice and bring in Chalice. Run two naturalize maindeck...that's better than a random return target that can blow-up vault/key.

Post board I agree, but pre-board this is wrong.  It is better to run 1 Dread Return target to answer Vault/Key rather than run 4 Naturalize (or probably Nature's Claim) and hope to draw those.  Also, the mana is better spent on something like Fatestitchers.

Chalice is good for sure and if Long were scary it would make more sense, but right now I do not think it is optimal.

Post board I agree.  Generally I board out all my targets and drop to just 1 Dread Return and just return a Troll as you say.  So post board I agree, but pre-board, Vault/Key is too broken to pass that extra turn and hope to draw Nature's Claim.

[Mith]

Yeah, I meant to say Claim, not Naturalize.
I still feel like having a return target for vault/key is too subjective...but I see your point of first game and having space to pull it off. I'm still in a love/hate relationship with fatestitcher...I feel like we're sacrificing resilience for speed. I often find myself boarding them out...and really, most first games are a gimme even without them. I suppose if I had to pick a second target, the elephant is probably the best choice at the moment

[wiley]

Given Matt's build (sans fatestitcher), I would lean towards eternal witness and woodfall primus/angel of despair.  That way you have an answer to vault/key and most other combos in both targets, and you can do a thousand little tricks with witness that lead to game wins with just as much if not more regularity than fkz, or you can beat face with primus/angel/troll.  Witness can also be an excellent lynch pin card against the myriad wasteland decks, especially those not of the brown variety.

Once upon a time I listed Eternal Witness as pretty much all around second best dread return target right behind Sundering Titan because everyone and their mother was cheating on mana to the point he was really good.  Well, people have stopped cheating on mana and they have yet to print anything better than witness.

[Soapbot]

.

Yeah, I meant to say Claim, not Naturalize.
I still feel like having a return target for vault/key is too subjective...but I see your point of first game and having space to pull it off. I'm still in a love/hate relationship with fatestitcher...I feel like we're sacrificing resilience for speed. I often find myself boarding them out...and really, most first games are a gimme even without them. I suppose if I had to pick a second target, the elephant is probably the best choice at the moment

fatestitcher pitches for FOW, in the second game. he's basically free if you have open mana, and he powers up The Bazaar. dread return 3 of them for free.
Also taps sphinx, Iona, or any creature to let your swarm swing through. All around, one hell of a card.



As of late, Angel of despair seems to be working for me. She hits anything ESPECIALLY creatures. Primus and Terastodon both fall short of this.
if Oath sides in Blazing Archon or Platinum angel or welder (pithing needle lock)
you don't have to scoop up your cards. Also at the very least she can be pitched to unmask, AND
used for ichorid. At first I thought she was meh, but so many instances were the bigger guys couldn't get me outta of a jam, this Depressed Angel
spread her wings on my opponent and lead me to victory (sadly of course)

They're all "win-more" cards...you don't need any of them.

Look, Dredge is at the cusp of finally becoming a serious deck that consistently top-8's or wins. We need to be focusing on stream-lining this beast instead of taking up space with unnecessary cards.

Flame-kin is the only return target I plan on keeping...most of the time I just bring back a troll and beat-face with it.

2 dread return, one flamekin...that's it. Use the space to increase the resilience of this deck. I almost want to cut Fatestitcher to follow Matt's advice and bring in Chalice. Run two naturalize maindeck...that's better than a random return target that can blow-up vault/key.

Hmm. nature's claim is only good, if you get it in the opening hand (even with Bazaar's goods). They will most likely be in your graveyard taking up a space
which could have been filled with some sorta dredge card or recursion.

Right now, I'm running a split of Ancient Grudge/ Ray of Revalation. If discarded not totally useless



I really don't like Sharuum, too many of those pieces will show up in opening hands and in mulls, making it frustrating, it's powerful.
but for any DBZ fan out there, Remeber when trunks was more powerful than cell, but to slow to hit him??? kinda on that level

[Mith]

I can't remember the last time I saw a Platinum Angel being played.

I agree that Claim is less useful unless it's in your opening hand. However, between four Claim and four Chain, I tend to have at least one if not more of those in my starting hand. Also, under even one Sphere/Thorn/Loadstone, Grudge and Ray become neigh un-castable for Dredge. At the most, you can hope for two mana-producers on the board...but most likely you have one or less. Likewise, lands need to be in your hand before dredging or you're not getting them.