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1  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Reserve List Card Spike? on: March 04, 2016, 06:35:33 pm
I'm gonna disagree with the basic premise that large numbers of people playing worse decks because of card availability is a good thing. If all the cards were reasonably priced, a significant portion of people who are playing on a budget would upgrade. So the "format diversity" that is created is artificial. It's impure. It means that no one actually plays that format; instead they play a bastardization of that format based on what cards people have access to. If you think that blue is the best deck by miles, and that this leads to decreased format diversity, that means that there is something fundamentally wrong with the format. That something could potentially be fixed by B/R changes. But artificially "banning" cards from players because they cost too much and you don't mind the side effects is terrible. If people want to play Metalworker, or Elves, or whatever in Legacy, it should be because they want to do so and/or because that deck is a good choice. It shouldn't be because we want to keep the cost of the actual good cards high enough to essentially ban them from a significant portion of the player base.

Side note: I think a very significant amount of people play Legacy (and Vintage) because they want to play blue, with the old good cards including the Duals. I'd assume very few people are excited about playing Eldrazi in Legacy, except those who built a modern deck and now think they have a cheap option to compete.

You are operating under the false assumption that decks are somehow well ordered in terms of how good they are.  This sentiment being completely wrong, yet widely held is in fact why budget constraints do lead to increased format diversity and competition, they help breed creativity rather than just sheeples.  It's not about a deck actually being better than all others, the problem is that people falsely perceive it as always the best and the game is too complex to simply "see" an alternative solution.  There are always people who will not be constrained at all by the budget, you will not have a lack of competition from that angle.  But in a game this complex there is a danger of lack of real competition due to inbreeding.  It may take a lot of what you call "worse decks" to find something, but when found this makes the competition as a whole stronger...you do realize don't you that the way large mtg tournaments are structured the "average match" is played well above the "average performing deck"?
2  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: Eternal Masters CONFIRMED on: February 17, 2016, 01:11:07 pm
I know this is a little OT, but was curious if Wizards ever debated reprinting dual lands as a legendary land. Seems like it would be all format playable, open up some interesting design space and usage, and maybe help bridge supply gap.

This comes up a lot, and at one point they have stated that a purely legendary dual land is too closed to the spirit of the RL for them to do.

not only spirit, it violates the letter:
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
Note the absence of 'supertype' from that list..so straight legendary duals, or straight snow duals are 'functionally identical'
3  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Eternal Masters Set and Other Leaks on: January 22, 2016, 06:11:28 pm
What's the best possible card this set could have for Vintage?  Mana Drain?  Certainly, Force of Will helps, too, if true. 

SMH - I'd have a lot easier time answering this question if WotC hadn't accidentally deleted the reserved list today: http://magic.wizards.com/go/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Maybe they're deleting the reserve list so they can print Power 9 in this set Razz

A lazy possibility, but a reasonable one, is that they will largely use the draft environment for VMA for Eternal Masters or whatever it's called. That was a fun set to draft and due to cost/being online only it was really underdrafted.

It would be interesting if Eternal Masters did not have black borders.
4  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: The Force Awakens on: January 06, 2016, 11:41:51 am
Quote
Whoa,
We need to stop at first principles if we think anything in the Star Wars Universe obeys the same laws of physics as ours...that a planet can consume a sun or that people can see things traveling at lightspeed as though time is passing in the same reference frame is hardly a problem when we can hear explosions in space.

Right, that's... that's what I said Very Happy

I pick on Star Trek when it fucks up its playbook, but Star Wars is just not that technical to make it worthwhile. The Force is literally the most hand-wavey DexM in the history of all things.

I don't want real,  just consistent.  

But that is my point...it is consistent in a way.  It hearkens back to a pre-1900s model of a clockwork universe where there is a ubiquitous substance, "aether", "medicloreans", or "force", throughout the universe.  Sound can propagate through this substance, light is a wave that propagates through this substance and Maxwell's equation's only hold exactly in some preferred frame of reference, hence there is no relativity principle, no one experiences time dilation when traveling long distances, and we have some alternative theory of gravitation, allowing us to hand-wave compressing a sun into a planet.  And the determinism inherent in a universe of prophecies  hint that the underpinnings of quantum mechanics do not hold as well.
5  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Hedron Alignment on: January 05, 2016, 12:45:06 pm
Hedron Alignment, 2U
Enchantment
Hexproof

At the beginning of your upkeep, you may reveal your hand.  If you do, you win the game if you own a card named Hedron Alignment in exile, in your hand, in your graveyard, and on the battlefield.

1U: Scry 1.
-------------

Am I the only one that thinks this might work out?  It seems easy to exile one by pitching to force/misd, it seems easy to get one in the yard with baby jace / dack fayden / thirst / gifts, and it only costs 3 to cast.  Finding all 4 of them might be hard unless Intuition helps.  But it seems like it's worth considering.

Possibly too slow for a real combo deck; possibly too fragile for a control deck wincon.  But pretty cool.

It does in fact work with copy enchantment as well, for the copy in play at least so a little lax on the 4 if you can sac or exile the original.
6  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: The Force Awakens on: January 05, 2016, 12:34:40 pm
Secondly - and how everyone forgets this, I have no idea - Kylo Ren was holding his insides in while he fought. He got hit by Chewie's insanely powerful crossbow, which is shown to all but obliterate every other thing it hits. Kylo has managed to not only *not* fall into a dozen pieces after this impact but he puts up a bloody good fight against two would-be attackers. He's worn out when Rey starts on him.

Yeah, the movie made a big deal about pointing out how injured Kylo was during this sequence.  First he gets his crotch blown off by the bowcaster, after they make a big deal about how powerful it is all movie long.  Then they show you not once, but twice that he's pounding his side and cringing at something very not right going on inside his body.  Then, they cut to the blood on the ground, and a reaction shot of Finn showing you he realizes he has a shot because this dork is already bleeding out... and then he takes a hit from Finn's wild swinging before he puts him down.  So, yeah, the director bent over backwards to explain why Kylo was an underdog in that fight.

Which I found really odd, because the movie did not give a poop about explaining all the hilariously awful science errors, usually having to do with scale.  (How large is a planet?  How large is a sun?  If you ate a sun and pooped it out at light speed, what would it look like to everyone else?  Would you see it from another planet far away? etc)

Well given Kylo's other fairly extreme Force feats, I think they had to do this so we'd know it was the Force and not the Plot giving her the means to ultimately stalemate that match. I mean, we talk about prequel Jedi looking and feeling very different from the original series Jedi, doing combat on wires and making this giant Super Mario leaps into and away from danger, right? Kylo isn't like that; he honestly feels like an extension of the Sith as displayed in Empire/RotJ imho, but oh my God is he on tilt. He doesn't just Force choke, he fucking Force Get-over-heres you if you cross him. He halts blaster bolts in midair -- even Yoda strains to deflect or absorb Force Lightning. Where Vader used standard interrogation tactics to get information from people, Kylo just reaches in and takes the knowledge he wants. He is a moody mikeyfick but Jesus balls, he's powerful.

I kind of winced when everyone 'saw' the effects of the Starkiller from other planets in realtime too, but eh. Apparently it's a "hyperspace weapon" so you can infer all kinds of ellipses logic to explain that one. I'm not going to; it's sci-fi mixed with fantasy, it's a cowboy Western with space magicians and FTL travel. Wars isn't like other series where, like, if someone commits an illegal action fans can go "omfg you can't BEAM THROUGH THE SHIELDS, it's established like 143 times in the series" because a lot of the jargon is pretty loose and never really used to add storyline tension. How fast is "point-five" past lightspeed? Why is the Kessel Run measured in parsecs, at all? How does a laser beam emitted from a Pringles can reflect back on the owner without being hot af to the touch? How does Strong Bad type with boxing gloves on? I know some of these answers are attempted in the EU, but that does nothing for those of us who primarily reference the movies (and from what I understand, the mere act of releasing Ep VII invalidates any post-RotJ EU canon, meaning it's free-range territory for future endeavors and any attempts to resolve scientific inaccuracies are also tossed into the proverbial Sarlacc pit).

Whoa,
We need to stop at first principles if we think anything in the Star Wars Universe obeys the same laws of physics as ours...that a planet can consume a sun or that people can see things traveling at lightspeed as though time is passing in the same reference frame is hardly a problem when we can hear explosions in space.
7  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: New card-draw land on: December 16, 2015, 01:55:39 pm
I just noticed that you can exile multiple cards with Ice Cauldron, you can play those cards even without activating the Cauldron's second ability, and that if the Cauldron leaves play that does *not* stop you from later playing any spells previously exiled.

This makes the Cauldron a lot more interesting than I thought. You can stash away some gas before playing a draw 7, or use a LED to pay for a spell in your hand. You can hide countermagic in the Cauldron where it is completely safe from Cabal Therapy et al. Or use it for its intended purpose and cast Emrakul with two easy payments of 7.5 mana.

EDIT: And I just realized the Cauldron synergizes quite well with Voltaic Key, allowing you to e.g. spend X mana on your opponent's EOT to get 2X free mana during your main phase.

None of this is worth  {4}, granted, but it's still a lot more interesting than I thought.

I am fairly certain this is not how Ice Cauldron works, because you remove the charge counter as a cost when you tap it to get the mana.  Unless I am misunderstanding something, this means that untapping it will not help you get "free" mana.  All Ice Cauldron can do is basically spread the mana cost of something over two turns.

No, it does work how evouga suggests[though it is spend X mana in opponent's end step to get 2X-3 since you need to pay for key both times]...
-activate ice cauldron for X=Y
-in response untap with voltaic key
-activate cauldron for X=0...let this resolve..exile unneeded card [which you can still cast later], cauldron gets 1 counter -- last noted amt is 0, last card exiled is unneeded card
-first cauldron ability resolves--exiled needed card last noted amt is Y cauldron gets another counter for 2 total, last card exiled is needed card

so you can activate it twice with key removing 2 counters and use 2Y mana to cast your desired card..you just need to be sure to exile the right card and make the right choice of X with each activation

EDITED: just realized exiling happens on resolution, not as cost...either way it works just order of exile switches
8  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: December 09, 2015, 04:42:36 pm
I do think there is a very strong possibility of filter expeditions, I think they will fit well mechanically and thus might even return to standard in an upcoming block [so the expedition is sort of a foreshadow]...I just don't think that one is legit.
9  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: December 07, 2015, 11:36:43 pm
I don't see anything in this card that indicates that colorless mana functions any differently than it already does.  I also don't see how this gives [Sm]Memnarch a boost.  I think I see what you're getting at, but nothing released so far indicates that {<>} can override the color-required costs  on Devoid or colorless cards.

Well we can definitely rule out a form of snow mana though.  They aren't going to be errating snow mana onto old cards.

Technically all the cards including Barry's land are unconfirmed so far, and could be removed.  This doesn't make it any less interesting to discuss in my opinion.

Quote
Its about reflecting 3 distinct wavelengths of light in a small area of the landscape that is simply a shading of the same color in the art.  Bad lighting doesn't make for bad physics. Your expeditions don't do that

Ok I'll bite.  What law of physics says this is impossible?
The quantization of light.  You have something there that absorbs light and reemits photons with those discrete energies under those lighting conditions.  I do not believe that pattern is consistent with the ink used on magic cards where you have different colors of ink next to each other at the pixel level in a dot pattern in close proximity shading, you will see the result of the blended spectra.  It is consistent with deskjet printer ink on an overlay or blanked foil where colors of ink are layered on top of each other to produce different shadings, you will see the dominant spectra in each area.

Given what all you say is true.  Isn't it still possible Wizard's themselves to printed so they could see a mock up before mass producing it?

Sure, I guess it's possible.  It's also possible it's a troll, people seem wildly passionate about this <>=colorless thing.
10  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: December 07, 2015, 10:55:09 pm
Also...found the original source upload.
Now we aren't suffering from 50% tweet compression and you can see it is a fairly reasonable resolution pic.  Zoom in on the expansion symbol or any line of text, is it my imagination or do those areas consistently look less crisp than the rest of the card and like there is a slight aura around them?...artifacts from photoshop layer erase perhaps.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nim8y1r0l14pbfw/fake%20mystic%20gate.jpg?dl=0

also stray ink dots above "pool" in first ability and "Add" in second.
11  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: December 07, 2015, 09:53:03 pm
I don't see anything in this card that indicates that colorless mana functions any differently than it already does.  I also don't see how this gives [Sm]Memnarch a boost.  I think I see what you're getting at, but nothing released so far indicates that {<>} can override the color-required costs  on Devoid or colorless cards.

Well we can definitely rule out a form of snow mana though.  They aren't going to be errating snow mana onto old cards.

Technically all the cards including Barry's land are unconfirmed so far, and could be removed.  This doesn't make it any less interesting to discuss in my opinion.

Quote
Its about reflecting 3 distinct wavelengths of light in a small area of the landscape that is simply a shading of the same color in the art.  Bad lighting doesn't make for bad physics. Your expeditions don't do that

Ok I'll bite.  What law of physics says this is impossible?
The quantization of light.  You have something there that absorbs light and reemits photons with those discrete energies under those lighting conditions.  I do not believe that pattern is consistent with the ink used on magic cards where you have different colors of ink next to each other at the pixel level in a dot pattern in close proximity shading, you will see the result of the blended spectra.  It is consistent with deskjet printer ink on an overlay or blanked foil where colors of ink are layered on top of each other to produce different shadings, you will see the dominant spectra in each area.
12  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: December 07, 2015, 10:42:39 am
I don't think press printing reflects primary spectra like that, should be more of a blur...it looks very odd to me.  I would not buy a foil that looked like that off ebay.

Edit: yep...just looked at the other spoiled cards on salvation that are foils and they reflect light how I'd expect, this one does not. It is noticeably different.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/650868-oath-spoiler-ayil-eternal-pilgrim
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/651638-new-green-red-legend-russian

and here is original art from PAX in August:
https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/638455196880867328
You can see there should not be foiling effects in those areas, they are simply different shades of sky and water.  What we have here is an office printer using various concentrations of magenta, cyan, and yellow and not typical mtg press printing.

This is an expidition land the foiling is supposed to be the same as FTV so it's supposed to look terrible compared to a normal foil lol.  The grayness and overall discoloring at this point could also be attributed to a bad camera.  Where I think you do have a good point is the already existing art, it seems this hasn't made its way onto a card yet, but was released for some reason earlier.  I will say it's very rare these spoiler sites are wrong, but I agree we can't be 100% certain yet.

edit: Here's an original expedition land under what looks to be a camera phone, equally terrible:[snip]
And the prerelease foil from the last set also seems to match the roiling on this prelease promo: [snip] (the date is also correct on this one)
4chan, the original source, has fake cards all the time.  There was a fake Oath Goblin Guide that made it just as far as this has just about a week ago.
It's not about being terrible..its about reflecting 3 distinct wavelengths of light in a small area of the landscape that is simply a shading of the same color in the art.  Bad lighting doesn't make for bad physics. Your expeditions don't do that.
13  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: December 07, 2015, 07:35:47 am
I don't think press printing reflects primary spectra like that, should be more of a blur...it looks very odd to me.  I would not buy a foil that looked like that off ebay.

Edit: yep...just looked at the other spoiled cards on salvation that are foils and they reflect light how I'd expect, this one does not. It is noticeably different.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/650868-oath-spoiler-ayil-eternal-pilgrim
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/651638-new-green-red-legend-russian

and here is original art from PAX in August:
https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/638455196880867328
You can see there should not be foiling effects in those areas, they are simply different shades of sky and water.  What we have here is an office printer using various concentrations of magenta, cyan, and yellow and not typical mtg press printing.
14  Eternal Formats / Northeast U.S. / Re: Myriad Games Vintage - Saturday December 12th, 2015 on: December 03, 2015, 12:16:25 pm
I plan to go
15  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 21, 2015, 09:14:31 pm
No what I mean by Commander is that currently, should you be running a colourless General (Karn for example) you can not run any basics. This card being a colourless land would make sense as it fills that role. It is just says 't: add (1) to your mana pool' then you have that basic you need for these decks.

Again, this already fills that role regardless of the definition of <>.  We have seen Wastes.  It does not have W U R G or B in its text box nor does it have the subtype Plains Island Mountain Forest or Swamp.  So its color identity IS colorless.  <> could even mean one mana of any color and this would be the case under the current rules.
16  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 21, 2015, 05:56:10 am
I see, I misunderstood your post. So are you suggesting that Devoid mana could be used to pay for the {R} in Ghostfire? That sounds unlikely to me.

I have seen people confused about Ghostfire a few times, which is why I think that templating change was solely for clarity, similar to the recent change from "unblockable" to "can't be blocked".

Yeah, exactly that.  So you could build a deck of devoid cards and Wastes in the current block and Wastes has some subtle but far reaching applicability beyond the block.  You could pay for the abilities on Memnarch with it, cast Ghostfire, crack any spellbomb, activate a filter land with it, etc.


This explains a couple other things in my mind:
a) Why such a sh**ty mechanic like devoid was a major set mechanic
b) Reconciling why the eldrazi like colors so much this time around and are not tied to the one color for their brood like last time
c) Why Wastes is being released in the second set of the block, they wanted enough of an environment to support building devoid decks and needed BFZ there first
d) Why one would care about Wastes in standard when there are about 10 non-basics that tap for (1) and etb untapped and we have one small set for <> to be the focus of.
e) How there can be enough support in the standard format to justify a <> basic land whatever <> means
That actually makes a lot of sense and those are good points.

Two more points:
f) Wotc marketing material for the prerelease says that Oath is the set that best ever supports two headed giant limited.  How can this be when over half the cards you get in a draft and half in sealed are from BFZ?  Because it is easy to split into two decks, one player can take all the devoid cards and play Wastes.
g) We now have motivation for the last 10 expeditions.  Expeditions are numbered out of 45, so there are 20 in Oath.  10 enemy manlands and 10 filterlands, previewing their return to standard since they work so well with <>.  There will not be enemy battle lands as 8 duals (with the 3 manlands) is too much for a small set.
17  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 20, 2015, 04:52:14 pm
I see, I misunderstood your post. So are you suggesting that Devoid mana could be used to pay for the {R} in Ghostfire? That sounds unlikely to me.

I have seen people confused about Ghostfire a few times, which is why I think that templating change was solely for clarity, similar to the recent change from "unblockable" to "can't be blocked".

Yeah, exactly that.  So you could build a deck of devoid cards and Wastes in the current block and Wastes has some subtle but far reaching applicability beyond the block.  You could pay for the abilities on Memnarch with it, cast Ghostfire, crack any spellbomb, activate a filter land with it, etc.


This explains a couple other things in my mind:
a) Why such a sh**ty mechanic like devoid was a major set mechanic
b) Reconciling why the eldrazi like colors so much this time around and are not tied to the one color for their brood like last time
c) Why Wastes is being released in the second set of the block, they wanted enough of an environment to support building devoid decks and needed BFZ there first
d) Why one would care about Wastes in standard when there are about 10 non-basics that tap for (1) and etb untapped and we have one small set for <> to be the focus of.
e) How there can be enough support in the standard format to justify a <> basic land whatever <> means
18  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 20, 2015, 02:47:04 pm
So I noticed a templating change in BFZ which is going to lead me to throw another possibility out there.
Notice that the reminder and rules text for Devoid is "this card has no color"  not "this card is colorless".  This is a reversal from previous sets (see Ghostflame).

So we could have:

<> is a new type of mana, Devoid mana.  Devoid mana has no color.  Change to comp rule 202: Devoid mana may be used to pay for any mana symbol in the cost of an object with no color.


"Has no color" and "colorless" are synonymous, just like "can't be blocked" and "unblockable" (and "can't be destroyed" and "indestructible" before the latter became a keyword). Presumably Wizards changed the wording of the reminder text because of stupid people thinking that Ghostfire was red and colorless.

That's why I said it was a templating change, nothing more.  The point is something motivated them to change their templating, maybe it is as you suggest (though I've never heard that confusion).  It could also be to highlight a mechanical link between sets.
19  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 20, 2015, 02:25:18 pm
So I noticed a templating change in BFZ which is going to lead me to throw another possibility out there.
Notice that the reminder and rules text for Devoid is "this card has no color"  not "this card is colorless".  This is a reversal from previous sets (see Ghostflame).

So we could have:

<> is a new type of mana, Devoid mana.  Devoid mana has no color.  Change to comp rule 202: Devoid mana may be used to pay for any mana symbol in the cost of an object with no color.

20  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 20, 2015, 02:02:51 pm
Just so we're on the same page, the current "types" of mana are

 {W} {U} {B} {R} {G} {1} {Snow}, and -- theoretically -- <>, right?  Since Phyrexian mana isn't technically mana. 


I still think it will end up being
 {W} {U} {B} {R} {G} {Snow}, and <> renaming colorless, as xouman described.  Otherwise, since Commander's color identity refers to the mana symbols themselves, Wastes would not fulfill the need in that format for Barry's land.

As long as <> is not a color (I don't think anyone is speculating otherwise), regardless of the definitions discussed Wastes fulfills the "need" for a basic with no color identity in commander.
21  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 19, 2015, 07:22:51 am
 But mtgo, painlands in standard making Wastes irrelevant to most decks, changing the drawback of every colorless producing land ever printed or to be printed into a power swing, and mass errata just seem to be too many things against the possibility of simply <>=colorless (1)=generic.

Just a couple of counter points to this:
Painlands don't make "Waste" irrelevant in the same way that dual lands don't make WUBRG basics irrelevant. There's a place for all types.

As to the second point, as long as you don't require colorless in a cost, having a land produce  {1} or <> is largely irrelevant. This won't change anything for cards printed in the last 22 years with generic mana costs. It will only be relevant if your cost must be paid from a colorless source, thus cards that don't exist yet.

I have no idea how MTGO will handle any of this.

1) If true dual lands were in standard, and there were about 10 different named dual lands in each color pair (equivalent to etb untapped tap for (1) non-basics)...WUBRG basics would be irrelevant in standard.  Likewise, Barry's Land would be marginalized to some basic land search applications in niche decks or they've got to bring the hate to standard; and I'm betting they make Barry's Land a centerpiece not an afterthought in standard.

2) The major argument I've been hearing to even justify <>=colorless (1)=generic is to solidify the terminology and make distinct the difference between colorless and generic, avoiding confusion from new players who ask "why can I pay G for (1)" but not "(1) for G"...that is what I was addressing by saying how it requires errata (which they always do for terminology changes), consistent application and is incompatible with any reasonable engineering of mtgo auto-spending.
3) We already know they require <> in some costs and my arguments against <>=colorless thus are in the context of costs requiring colorless.
22  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 19, 2015, 06:27:40 am
Another point against <> simply being the colorless (to differentiate from generic) mana symbol:

Most of us are aware of how sh***y mtgo is with spending our colorless mana, not even allowing us to hold control or something to let us spend workshop mana preferentially.  So maybe they would fix that.
.
.
.
BUT, this mechanic would make colorless mana better than colored mana in many common instances in standard, and more prevalent than it usually is.  So what is mtgo just going to stop auto-spending colorless as generic for you? Are you going to have to hold down control when you cast everything in standard?  Is mtgo just going to be sh**tier to play until rotation?  I will grant that the last one is a distinct possibility; but I do think that in a sense it would represent the antithesis of what colorless \neq generic would be trying to accomplish.  Why should mtgo autospend my <> for (1) now that the distinction would have been made clear.

In other words, either the mechanic and "mana philosophy" don't functionally work on mtgo [your colorless will get autospent] or you have to change the way everyone casts every spell forever in an inconvenient manner [not autospent].

It would be an nice mechanic for us, certainly easy for them to make something Vintage playbale.  But mtgo, painlands in standard making Wastes irrelevant to most decks, changing the drawback of every colorless producing land ever printed or to be printed into a power swing, and mass errata just seem to be too many things against the possibility of simply <>=colorless (1)=generic.


I also do not think it is simply a "type" of colorless mana a la snow.  I do think there is something else up with this mana otherwise Barry's Land is just....marginal...super marginal.....super duper marginal.
And I have a hard time believing that is the case.  They learned that snow as it exists is marginal so they won't make the same mistake twice...er three times (I hope).  But what if snow mana had some existential use outside of being able to pay for [snow] or interact with a handful of cards?

I think this may be actually very cool what they have done here. I do think it may be spent as generic mana or to pay <> costs.  But I'm betting it does something else particularly useful to extend its reach beyond this block.  Power-level wise this could range from:  Maybe you can pay <> to essentially void a color requirement in a cost or something, ie (1)<> or (2)<> casts lightning bolt. To something small like allowing you to spend extra mana on spells (RGBW<> for painful truth for instance).

This makes Barry's Land (and what you can do with your <>) the real focus and something that can outlive the block.  We've only seen 2 cards that require <> to cast or activate, both mythics [it looks like, I can't really tell on the land] and I'm thinking that the set will be more about what <> does than cards that cost <>.

But I think focusing on just "colorless matters" is too low for Barry's Land.  The name is obviously Void mana as others have mentioned.
23  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 18, 2015, 05:22:31 pm
If the symbol means that colorless mana needs to be used to cast it, it's probably still normal colorless mana but they used a special symbol instead of writing "At least X colorless mana needs to be spent to cast this spell." on every cards. There's probably some subtle differences with some cards like Omniscience. It could also be similar to the Snow supertype but the land has no supertype besides Basic.

I think this possibility is ruled out by the mana ability shown on the non-basic.  It would not say "add <>" if <> only referred to cost payment (like the phyrexian or snow mana symbols)

Not if they plan to make this change for all future cards.  The mana ability on both lands says add <>.  We don't have a spoiler of a card adding {1} yet

Seems like a lot of effort for little gain and either inconstancy or mass errata.  And they are going to have to put a heck of a lot of non-basic hate or basic love in standard for anyone to run Wastes if that is the case...otherwise it'll be pain lands all over the place?
24  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 18, 2015, 04:13:24 pm
If the symbol means that colorless mana needs to be used to cast it, it's probably still normal colorless mana but they used a special symbol instead of writing "At least X colorless mana needs to be spent to cast this spell." on every cards. There's probably some subtle differences with some cards like Omniscience. It could also be similar to the Snow supertype but the land has no supertype besides Basic.

I think this possibility is ruled out by the mana ability shown on the non-basic.  It would not say "add <>" if <> only referred to cost payment (like the phyrexian or snow mana symbols)
25  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [OGW] Wastes: Barry's Land is REAL? on: November 18, 2015, 11:41:51 am
LOVE IT...except that I can't Waste your Wastes, boooo bad name choice.
26  Eternal Formats / Bazaar-Based Decks / Re: Library of Alexandria Math on: November 17, 2015, 10:43:45 am
Interesting.  You may want to expand the state space to count dredgers and re-evaluate for keeping only in those states where you have library+dredger, I'm not sure you'd keep library alone.
27  Eternal Formats / General Strategy Discussion / Re: [C15] Magus of the Wheel on: November 05, 2015, 09:38:50 pm
He's nice, but  Jace's Archivist (cheaper, reusable windfall on a stick) not having done anything leaves me suspicious.
28  Vintage Community Discussion / Card Creation Forum / Re: On the stack land. on: November 05, 2015, 10:23:07 am
Adding 2 per spell seems like a lot. Going : "Stack-Land, Saphire, Brainstorm, Add 4 (or 6/8 if someone Missteps/Forces)" seems like a lot.

Edit: Actually, it would be an interesting card to add to the environment as you'd strive to balance the ability to generate colourless mana (meaning instants) with something to sink it into on a consistant basis (X spells, Delve cards, artifacts & colourless activated abilities)

And you need the colored sources in play in the first place to cast those instants and have them on the stack the same time as your mox...moxes dont tap on the stack and rituals don't add mana yet:-/...it self balances a bit; not saying 2 straight for all spell types is a good number, just that it's not quite so bad as it seems, I think you have to build around it and I don't think it'd jam into everything especially now that the delve cards are gone.

That's actually what I find interesting about it [or a related mechanic], it seems storm-like in the sense that some thought pyromancer was storm-like when spoiled...cause the closest mechanical comparison we could make was casting lots of spells; but the card doesn't really care about the spell count over a turn (storm) or a sequence of turns (pyromancer), but rather at a higher frequency (between sorcery-speed windows); so how the card would play best would likely end up very different from our initial thoughts.
29  Vintage Community Discussion / Card Creation Forum / Re: On the stack land. on: November 05, 2015, 10:09:40 am
I like it, it should have a timing restriction though to get around the cheatyface-oldschool-LED-style freebie ancient tomb of using this mana ability for something placed on the stack as the first step in being cast.  Or, you could just make it target and kill two birds with one stone (getting rid of "the stack"):  "T: choose any number of target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool for each spell chosen this way."

2 mana per spell on the stack would most likely be brutal. Imagine playing a Mox/Cantrip/Ritual and having 4-6 mana on turn 2.

I think I got a pretty good fix to the timing problem.

{Tap}: Add {2} to your mana pool, use this ability only if at least 1 spell resolved this turn.

That way it's more balanced as you can't use it to counter other people's spells, yet it still works when you get your spells countered. It's also very bad in the draw-go deck mirror if they don't cast anything in their turn.



I see it fits your goal of accelerating when you have multiple things, the cool thing to me about your original idea was the different design it seemed to open up which it then loses. Power level can be scaled however appropriate:
"T: choose up to 2 target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool  and lose 3 life for each spell chosen this way."
"T: choose 3 or more target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool for each spell chosen this way."
"T: choose 3 or more target spells.  If those spells are not all controlled by the same player add 1 to your mana pool, gain 1 life and draw 1 card for each spell chosen this way."
All provide interesting spaces of lands that are conditionally good in counter-wars, can be build around, etc.
30  Vintage Community Discussion / Card Creation Forum / Re: On the stack land. on: November 05, 2015, 09:31:50 am
I like it, it should have a timing restriction though to get around the cheatyface-oldschool-LED-style freebie ancient tomb of using this mana ability for something placed on the stack as the first step in being cast.  Or, you could just make it target and kill two birds with one stone (getting rid of "the stack"):  "T: choose any number of target spells.  Add 2 to your mana pool for each spell chosen this way."
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