I'm just a lurker, but I'd like to chime in and say that this describes my situation exactly.  I don't mind the restrictions (I'm not crazy about them, but I don't mind them).  What I do mind is the lack of explanation.

If they wanted to restrict Brainstorm because it's too powerful with fetchlands, or that it (along with Ponder) makes storm grow too quickly, that would be fine.  At least then we'd understand the restrictions.  But this?  Who knows what's going on.

It's also insulting, like we're not worth the time, or that they didn't put any thought into the restrictions.  Either option is insulting.

I'm not a good player by any stretch of the imagination, but I did have two ideas that I wanted to put into action (perhaps even in the same deck).

First is Storm Entity.  It's probably inferior to Tendrils and EtW, but I just really like the idea of this guy.  He's cheap at 1R, so could work as a partial storm kill.  That is, storm up a little bit, then drop this guy (maybe two) as a piece of a bigger strategy.  Sorry that's so vague.  The Entity could work in a GAT-like deck (grow the Dryad big, drop a big SE, and swing with both) or in a UBr Tendrils deck (mid-sized Tendrils followed by SE).

The Second is a more Red-based storm deck.  Something as simple as a Lightning bolt effectively raises the storm count by 2.5 instead of 1, in the sense that you don't need to storm to 9 or 10 to Tendrils.  Add in the fact that you've got some good Rituals in Red now, along with cards like Wheel of Fortune, Burning Wish, Dark Confidant, and you could make something happen.  But then I think I'd rather be in blue, drawing cards and countering spells and such.  Still, could be a fun deck to try out in a casual meta that doesn't require a strong commitment to FoWs or Drains or Misdirections.

I don't know if these count as hidden treasures, but they are fun little ideas I've been thinking about recently.

I'd just like to de-lurk and say that this is false.  Professor's don't get a cut of book sales, unless its their own book (in which case their royalty is negligible, less than a dollar per book).  The high price of books is generally out of their hands, and most that I worked with worked hard to find more affordable options.  We even developed an online wiki-book for the logic classes we taught, to save our students $50-$80 a year.

EDIT: Some helpful hints that I used: amazon and half are great for used titles, and amazon frequently beat the price of the university bookstore on new titles.  The bookstore likes to mark up the prices since (until the internet) they basically were your only source for textbooks.  For things like Theaetatus or other older literary works, you can find many cheaper editions at bookstores all over the place.  Sometimes the prof will want a certain translation, so make sure you pay attention to that, but otherwise the $6 penguin edition will be just as good as the $50 cambridge edition.

Just FYI, this song (in multiple versions) is available on the iTunes music store.  It's called "Dragostea Din Tei"

I think it tops "Banana Phone" in annoying catchiness, a song which I also own.

I don't think they're the same thing.  With control, you actually get to play cards.  You know, tap mana, take things out of your hand.  And every so often, one of them gets through.  With Trini, you can't even do that.  Do you see the difference?

For all intents and purposes, sure the game is *effectively* over when the control player gets a 3/4 card advantage on turn 2.  But you're still playing from then on.  Not so with Trini.  Once that comes down, you can't do anything.  This is then compounded by Smokestack or Tanglewire or Crucible, which further prevent you from doing anything, and not in the way that control aims to.

Do keep in mind that the B&R list only applies to Sanctioned tourneys.  If you're unsanctioned, you can do whatever the hell you want in your tourney.  Once you've lost sanctioning by allowing proxies, you can pretty much do whatever you want wrt the B&R list.  Ergo, Wizards doesn't need to officially consider you in their data.

Here's my two insignificant cents: Trini was unfun to play against, in a way that combo isn't.  Trini is often compared to first turn combo wins (in terms of unfunness, lack of interaction, whatever).  Here's where I think they differ: with trini, you get turns, but can't do anything.  That makes you feel like you could be playing, but you're not.  Combo doesn't do that.  You watch a magnificient, mathematically beautiful series of plays, and then scoop.

I'm not saying combo is better, or shouldn't be touched.  I am saying that Trini, in virtue of giving you useless turms, is inherently unfun.  It prevents you from playing your cards, but keeps you alive.  That's just not fun: sitting there, not being able to do anything, and going through your turn ("Island... go" at best).  At least with combo, you get to watch a nice play (the 10-15 spells played by combo is a lot more fun than Shop->Trini to watch) before you go get a soda.

I'd like to add in another vote for articles about combo.  I'm a horrible player (and a horrible poster), but I loves me some combo.  Something about TPS, Long, and Meandeck Tendrils embodies everything I like about the format.  Singletons, massive power, and the mathematical elegance of going off.  But I digress.

I would like to learn how to play these decks better.  I don't have access to a regular group of players (just a local shop in Tustin, but I don't really know anyone there), so I don't have the benefit of testing available to me.  I'd like to see general guidelines and principles to follow when playing these decks, as well as specific hands as examples (in both of these respects, the Meandeck Tendrils article was exactly what I'm looking for).

Help me actually be good at the decks I enjoy  

edit: Klep is right on in his request for sideboard info.  Apart from having no clue how to play TPS, I have no clue how to sideboard.

That was quick.  I guess "Thinking things through" is another piece of tech I should familiarize myself with.

I've noticed the Torontonians (as well as a few others) speak of their secret "anti-oath tech," as well as some public tech like Claws of Gix or Spawning Pit.  This got me thinking about what could work as an anti-oath card, and after digging through my meagre collection, I found something that I had never see discussed before: Skullclamp.

Now, I may just be a newbie (which I am) and I may just be missing something incredibly obvious (exceedingly likely), but it seems that the Clamp could do a good job counteracting the advantage conferred on Oath by Forbidden Orchard.  Clamp the Spirit tokens to not only eliminate the creature asymmetry, but net two cards in return.

I haven't tested this since it just came to me the other day, but it looks like it could work.  But then again, what do I know?

I thought the TMD moderators locked threads that just posted a decklist.  What am I missing?

I pulled the posts in this discussion out of the longer basic user thread. I left in the post with the decklist for reference, so that people wouldn't have to go looking for it just to understand the thread.

-Jacob

Even if it is misdirected, that doesn't change the named card, right?  It seems like you name the card first, then choose the opponent.  So if I name Goblin Welder, and it's MisD'd my way, I remove all Goblin Welders from my hand/deck/yard.  This could go horribly awry in mirror matches, but chances are MisD'ing it is equivalent to countering it.

Heh, Franken-something  

It's Frank and Son, and you can find out about it here: http://www.fs-collectibles.com/fs_directions.htm

Personally, I'm going to be there tomorrow around 9am, packing some decks to play with.

It's completely useless, but kind of cute: This spell is part of a cycle:

Peer Through Depths - 1U
Instant - Arcane
Look at the top 5 cards of your library. You may reveal an instant or sorcery card among them and put it in your hand. Put the remaining cards on the bottom of your library in any order.

Reach Through Mists - U
Instant - Arcane
Draw a card.

Sift Through Sands - 1UU
Instant - Arcane
Draw two cards, then discard a card. If you played a card named Peer Through Depths and a card named Reach Through Mists this turn, you may search your library for a card named The Unspeakable, put it into play, and then shuffle your library.

The Unspeakable - 6UUU
Legendary Creature - Spirit
Flying, Trample
Whenever The Unspeakable deals combat damage to a player, you may return target Arcane spell from your graveyard to your hand.
6/7

My god, those are hot.  I think I've gotta stop off at the craft store after work and pick up an exacto knife and a cutting board.  One day I'll make something that looks that tite.

EDIT: What do they put between layers to give depth?  Those look thicker than 6~8 cards.

Before we declare this "unkillable," we need an idea of what Arcane spells there will be (or rather, what *useful* arcane spells there will be).

I can't imagine there not being any playable Arcane spells, so throw them into a deck with this guy and the Arcane Tutor (2U to search for an Arcane spell, can't remember what its called) and we could have some fun.  Splice too... there's gotta be a way to abuse Splice/Arcane in Vintage.

On the other hand, is this guy really better than Exalted Angel, Pristine Angel, or even Morphling?  It all depends on what Arcane gives us.

Yes, I don't think Fish is the deck for That Land What Shelters Things.  The only cards it can work on are Daze and FoW, neither of which are hardcast.

For those who haven't seen it:
Boseiju, Who Shelters All -
Legendary Land
Boseiju, Who Shelters All comes into play tapped.
Pay 2 life, T: Add 1 to your mana pool. If that mana is spent on an instant or sorcery spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

So, what can it be used for?  Just scanning through my Control Slaver deck, I see Cunning Wish, Intuition, Thirst for Knolwedge, Fact or Fiction, Time Walk, Yawgmoth's Will, Accumulated Knowledge and Tinker.  Lots of choices there, but will the downsides override the positives?

- Comes into play tapped -> slow slow slow.  This may not be so bad though, as the big use of the card could be to break a mid game control lock.  If it can guarantee a Yawgmoth's Will it may just swing the game.

- 2 life loss.  Not as bad as the first drawback, but not so good when coupled with:

- Produces 1 colourless and only works on instants/sorceries.  Losing two life to cast an Creature, Artifact or Enchantment sucks.  But again, it could be made worthwhile if it pushes through that YawgWin

- Guarantees that other spells will be countered.  There is no option to make the spell counterable, which guarantees that your instants/sorceries without colourless mana in their costs as well as your other cards are more likely to be countered.  Again, I'm not smart enough to see if this is a real disadvantage or not.

Another positive effect is that this card overrides Chalice of the Void.  A Time Walk cast through the Shelter sneaks past a Chalice for 2.  This is good news.  However, the majority of Chalices I've seen have been dropped at 0 or 1 to stop Moxes, Welders, Shamans, Lavamancers etc. so this may not be very significant.


There's a lot of room for analysis.  I'd do more, but I'm not smart enough/experienced enough to see the full consequences of this card.  Are the drawbacks of this card really that bad?  Are the positives worth it?  I can't say for sure, but it's worth a look if only to force through a gamebreaking Yawgwin, TimeWalk, Tinker (for DSC) or Intuition (please let me put three Sundering Titans in the trash...).

My best translation: "No good sir, I do not believe that you play Suicide.  For if you did, you would know that Suicide does not use Pox or Fetchlands."

I feel kinda weird opening up this old thread, but I figured it's stickied for a reason.

Anyhoo, here's my question.  I've recently decided to give combo a try and built a build of TPS to practice with.  It's obviously notoriously difficult to play, and I'm discovering these nuances through playtesting and goldfishing.  What I really have problems with is when to mulligan.  What should my opening hand consist of?  What are the elements that, if missing, should force a mulligan?  So far I've noticed draw of any sort (Bargain, Ancestral, whatever) is key.

Also, what are the ideal tutor targets?  Or at least some general guidelines for when to tutor for what.

Thanks for your help!



This is a great question.  The problem is that the correct answer is: It Depends.  WHat does it depend upon?  It depends upon what your opponent is playing, primarily.   With TPS you should be playing to beat your opponent.  This means you should consider the following factors:

* What disruption does the opponent have that can stop you?
* How fast is your opponents deck?
* How fast will it get its disruption online?

With TPS, you should be waiting for the last possible moment in many cases before going off.  Agianst most decks you want a nice margin of safety, but the principle remains - dont' rush the deck if you don't have to becuase your chances of winning will continue to rise as the game progresses.  

Therefore, if you are playing against Stax and they are going first, you will likely need to be looking for a hand with FOW or with basic lands so that you can Hurkyl's a Trinisphere + Chalice up.  If you are playing against something like Mono Blue control, you need to understand that you can't play the control role, so you will have to go off prettty quickly to have any chance at all - so in that matchup its all about pressure.  

Testing can reveal what is needed for each matchup.  Just pay attention to what works and what doesn't.  If you still are confused, let me know.

Smmenen [/color]

Odyssey's "Deserted Temple."  I have never ever seen that card.

I stand owned.  The first one is still cool... right?

EDIT: Owned by slow reply too.  Today just isn't my day

For those not keeping up with the CoK spoilers, here are two cards that I think could be useful in Vintage:

Glimpse of Nature - G
Sorcery
Whenever you play a creature spell this turn, draw a card.

Minama, School at Water's Edge
Legendary Land
T: Add U to your mana pool.
U,T: Untap target Legendary permanent.

I see the first one in a G/ub Affinity deck.  Speed through your deck with Glimpse of Nature by playing Ornithopters and Affinity creatures, Thoughtcast and maybe Skullclamp.  Eventually, you'll have enough artifacts to win via Disciple of the Vault damage, Tendrils of Agony, or a (Berserked? Rancored?) Ravager... or some combination of the above.  Xantid Swarm can provide protection, if you don't want to go with Duress or FoW.

As for the second, it's obviously Tolarian Academy's sidekick.  At worst, it's an island (granted, one that can get nailed by non-basic hate, but is also immune to 7/10).

Thoughts?

Priest of Titania + Elves +  Staff of Domination = Everyone hates you.

As long as you have 4+ elves, the Staff gives infinite mana.  You will then control the board with your Staff.

I think you need to find a better Anti-Drug.

And by the way, the card you're looking for is Leonin Abunas.

I've got a boatload of invites sitting around, and since I'm not sure who's gotten gmail already or not, why don't you PM/email me and I'll send you an invite?

If there is a better board for this, chalk it up to my n00bishness.

I'm looking to play some Vintage in SoCal.  I live in the OC, but going to LA or SD is no problem.  Anything is better than my two person group at UCIrvine.

So if anyone knows good shops, good groups, good tournaments, whatever, please help me out.

Thanks for the comments, you make some good points.  You're right that if I want to rely on the Draw 7's (and Storm perhaps) that it would be better to just play Draw7 or TPS.  So the Draw 7's are gone, but what should take its place?

If I add disruption, then that slows the entire deck down or makes it strictly inferiour to GAT/Hulk.  The only other option is to add traditional Raffinity stuff, but then I'm back to the "Type 2 with sol ring" scenario.  I'm not saying that that's bad for the deck, but personally  I'd rather play something that's quite a bit different than T2 Raffinity.  Maybe that's just not an option though.

For my n00b post, I'd like to present a deck that I've enjoyed playing recently.  A little prehistory.  I wanted to make a Raffinity deck in type 1, mainly because I acquired some cheap Ravagers.  This deck went through three phases:

- "Type 2 with Sol Ring" - Basically it was just the Type 2 deck powered up.  It played exactly the same with Cranial Platings, Ornithopters, and Shrapnel Blasts.  Boring

- Next, I thought I could make something like GAT or Hulk Smash, as I thought that Ravager could work like Quirion Dryad.  This had promise, but didn't work as well as GAT/Hulk simply because those decks get to do powerful stuff with the cards that add counters to their main creature.  With Dryad, you can burn through your deck with draw/tutors/counters, and at the end of the day you have a big creature.  With Ravager, you have to cast a lot of artifacts that don't do anything except get sacced.  So this was abandoned for:

- Combo.  With other incarnations of this deck, I found that I could win without attacking at all - just by saccing to a Ravager with a Disciple in play.  This lead me to a Combo-ish approach to the deck using Draw 7's to refill my hand with cheap artifacts.  After a while, sac them all to the Ravager and use Disciple damage for the win.  If the combo doesn't succeed, I've still got a good sized army of Enforcers, Frogs, and Ravagers for beatdown.

So, with that in mind, here's the list

Combo:
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Disciple of the Vault

Draw:
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Thoughtcast
1x Timetwister
3x Diminishing Returns
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Windfall
1x Memory Jar

Tutor:
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor

Creatures:
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Frogmite
4x Shield Sphere

Mana:
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
5x Moxen
1x Lotus
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Glimmervoid
2x Ancient Tomb
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Great Furnace
4x Seat of the Synod


I don't think there's any outlandish card choices to explain (except maybe shield sphere - it just costs zero.  It could, and probably should, be Ornithopters).  The basic idea of the deck is above: drop a lot of artifacts, refill hand, repeat until Disciples and a Ravager hit the board, sac to win.  If there's not enough Disciple damage, swing with the artifact army just built.

The decks weakness is, of course, Null Rod.  The only thing I can think of doing to stop it is add disruption to the deck (Annul, Duress, FoW) but that may slow down the combo side.  It's always an option, maybe one that can fill a sideboard?

Speaking of which, I suck at building sideboards.  I blame my meta, because it consists of me and one other guy (stupid SoCal... how can there not be many Vintage players in the entire region?).  So that's probably #1 on the To Do List for this deck.  I can afford to lose a few Ravagers from the deck (One is all you need for the combo) so maybe I could even MD some disruption.

Anyways, enough of my newbie babble.  Your comments?