Well I could talk to you about this in person, but I can do it here as well. I think that the biggest reason for the lack of Gifts based decks was the Chicago meta game. Everyone knows the area consists of a plethera of Workshops and this could be one of the reasons. I think at Rochester Gifts will be running around, but I would not be surprised to see a lot of oath again for three reasons: One, the numers it came in at chicago. Two, the price; oath unlike many other decks can be made on a small budget. The list from Chicago that cut mana drain and used Leak instead is a point that backs my previous statement up. Three: Oath can give most any tier 1 deck a tough match-up. This includes pre and post sideboard. I really like Gifts based decks a lot, and again, IMO I think that Gifts will be out in numbers in Rochester. I feel it could be like the last Rochester, but replace all the fish decks with gifts.

I have not played SSB style gifts against a first turn welder, but I did play gifts oath this past weekend at a local tournament and it is quite threatening when you mill all of you moxes into the graveyard and oath out the colossus. Post sideboard is a better match because of the addition of pithing needles which is a great help at shutting down the little guy.

I am with mr. rogers. We both play at the same local area and are team mates, and this question actually came up yesterday (Saturday) at a match that went into extra turns. It was ruled that it did not count towards and extra turn towards the 5.

I played the same list at a way smaller tourney and did quite well with it. The mana base is very vulnerable, but still plays quite well despite that fact. It is a fun deck to play, but I guess that is to be discussed in another thread...

It looks very interesting, but don't give up the proxied workshops I like slow control-style decks, they make you feel all warm inside. I would try this out, but I won a tourney today with gifts oath so now I must explore the greatness that is Meandeck Gifts Oath. But very nice build, and I like the way its control, but aggressive at the same time, i.e. if you get cruicible/strip lock on bad manabases (5c dragon, and gifts :lol:) Keep up the good work, and I do not remember if I posted in your other thread, congrats on waterbury!

Thanks Jiggly...nobody Beat Off twice! I still remember that, good line. As far as those bad cards, I still can not say what they are until I finish the testing for the deck.

@ Mr. Rogers: those "bad cards" are going to win me games, mark my words :lol:

All I meant to say about adding tutors is the fact that you will draw worse because you are obviously going to leave out other cards. You may have to leave out some thirsts or gifts to incorporate a couple tutors. The deck typically draws fine in most situations anyway.

Sorry Rakso, I could not tell if you were being serisous or just being sarcastic...but I honestly do feel like extra tutors are not needed in the deck.

Brassy makes a good point, I made a similar point in a post earlier in this thread...patience is a virtue as they say.

One another point about increasing the amount of tutors, what are you going to lose for those tutors is my question for you. The deck list is pretty tight as it is, adding some cards to help find the pieces is kind of crazy for the following reason:
1) The typical gifts deck runs:
       - 2-4 Thirst for Knowledge (depending on gifts count)
       - 4 Brainstorm
       - 1 Demonic Tutor
       - 2-4 Gifts (depending on thirst count)
       - 1 Burning Wish (Fetch something from the board)
       - 1 Mystical Tutor
       - 2 Merchant Scroll
       - 1 Fact or Fiction
       - 1 Ancestral Recall
To me this is an aweful lot of cards that are going to help you fetch the pieces, adding more tutors means you lose other things such as maybe Pithing Needles, which may I add is a house, or other good cards. Adding more tutors may in fact make the deck draw worse.

Having Fusillade in the side board only is risky, but it could also always pay off in the end. Like most other things, it comes down to personal preference. Having it main deck as well as sideboard makes me feel more at ease, just because then you have it twice (i.e. one main deck and one in the board, which you can wish for).

Burning Wish is a must. It wins the game half of the time allowing you to grab the time walk after you use it in the Yawgmoth's Will turn. Granted it is a dead card early, but it can pay off in the late game.

Yes, I saw what I typed, I did not realize it until I just saw what you typed, my bad. But Supression Field does shut down their fetches which can spell certain disaster...

I must also agree with War and Jeremy. Suppression Field literally shuts you down just as much as your opponent. The loss of Thirst for Compulsive Research is just crazy talk. You would be removing and instant to gain what, only having to pitch a land instead of an artifact. This build of yours is contradicted by Suppression Field, SF shuts down your fetches, moxes, phyrexian furnace, etc. Drain is a must because it helps power out your spells just as much as it stops thiers. I would not run furnace either, I made a chalice oath build for P9 Rochester a while back, and it honestly is a dead card most times. I can think of a lot better cards I could use that one mana on most of the time.

Rakso: I am in the long process of testing my gifts build, which I assure you is different than any other one out there. I will be posting my list, testing results, etc within the next week to two weeks. I would hate to post pre-mature test results and have it be wrong. I am through Dragon and Control Slaver and tonight I am working on the Gifts Mirror, even though most cases my build detroys it:-D I will keep everyone posted.

Granted I realize that no one even knows who I am so my opinion does not rank as high as most other people, but I hope that in the weeks to come my build may shake things up a bit.

Very good point indeed. I feel that this kill can be used in some other kind of deck, and I think someting like Stax or another Workshop deck could take advantage of Fusillade by itself.

@ Revvik: "Look at the individual pieces to this combo.  Are they dead cards without the other?  100% of the time."

That is not totally true. Fusillade can do damage on its own without needing time vault. As a matter of fact to solidify my point, I was beat Day 2 of Waterbury by just Fusillade. I was down to 7 and my opponent cast it, it resolved and he tapped 7 permanents and killed me. Depending what part of the game you are in, Fusillade can be used on its own.

Well I am glad that this post has created such a stir thus far, being a fellow team mate posted it. In my own opinion good points have been made for both sides. The point that I feel needs to be stressed again though is the fact that this deck has been played in one big tournament, which was obviously Waterbury Day 2. Let Chicago come and pass, see the results and really start to judge then. Many varients of vault/fusillade are going to come and go. My team mates and I are attempting to innovate a new version of Gifts.dec which may be very good in a control meta. More testing will have to be done before I would even consider posting my deck list and having it torn to shreds though.

This combo will only become better with time, as well as our knowledge of how the deck really plays too. I feel that the severance/belcher kill, as well as the fusillade/vault kill will be running around in the heavy Workshop Chicago meta, and I wish it the best of luck:-D

But, like I said, good points made by both sides.

Xantid Swarm without any question. Definetly Swarm, like it has been said, it hits the board and the other player really cannot stop you unless you read my tag line, but that is very rare:-D

Most definetly. Mox Monkey destroyed me at Waterbury.

Save the Rack and Ruin's for the sideboard because most times, it can be a dead card as well as a waste of space in main deck slots.
Monkey>Rack and Ruin in the main deck set up.

Mr. Rogers is right, it does all come down to a preference for each individual player. Yes it is true that the Vault-Fusillade requires less mana to activate, but I feel the more important reason Vault-Fusillade is better is sometimes Severence-Belcher cannot be activated the turn it come into play. This is where I feel Vault-Fussilade "takes the cake" just for its speed factor.

Right now I have began testing on my own version of Gifts, which is going to be different from any other version that has been written about. This topic however is for another time, but I have only done limited testing, and it is no where near ready to be released or played.

Pretty decent deck list mr.rogers, since waterbury I have been looking into Gifts, and reading everything I could...on the other hand, I too am building a Gifts build, but it is secret until it is fully tested and such...but a very good start....Team WTF!?!? all the way:-D

It just kills me to see no ancestral recall, like the other have stated.

My suggestion, is go the WTF path and run Rootwater Thief MD in there. You still get Swords, Meddling Mage, Rootwater Thief, ANCESTRAL, along with other ridiculous cards such as Wild Mongrel with a Umezawa's Jitte connected to it.

I played WTF pre-saviors, and now i would assume Pithing Needle can take up 2 MD slots to add lock in even more. So in my own opinion, WTF is a better choice if you are going to run any "fish" type deck.

To Dave Feinstein...congrats with the *ss whooping Kird Ape!

Nice report as well.

Yes sir, that is correct...I loved playing WTF but then I decided to attempt to take the meta by surprise by playing Dragon, yeah the good that did:-D

WTF most likely has the best overall macth up in a field over any of the other fish builds. Plus in my version I added Tinker/Colossus.

Again, congrats on your 25th finish, I was somewhere in the 70's to 80's:-D

I played slaver once, and I made the bonehead move of leaving a necromany in my hand when I was slaved...nothing says your an *ss like being killed with your own cards:-D

I like the game slaver is playing right now, but I watched both (Slaver and Gifts) play and I am leaning towards Gifts, it seems to just have more going for it right now...I believe 3 gifts in the T4 and 1 Stax, but do not take me wrong, Slaver is GREAT...but gifts has more going for it.

Worse Than Fish is a combination of like three decks: Fish, Madness, and Bird Shit

Honestly again, in my opinion WTF has the best game against most, but I guess everyone has their own opinion.

Well I was one of the One Hundred and Eighty something MTG players in attendence on Saturday playing for the coveted Black Lotus. First of lets rewind back to about a week ago when I am discussing Waterbury with my team mate on AIM. For some reason I neglected to remeber the exact date of the tournament, so I am talking how I have two or more weeks to get ready, he informs me it is the upcoming weekend.........wonderful!

So now it is about five days until Day 1 and I am doing some fun net-decking because I suck that much. I begin to think to myself, "hey, dragon is not being played as much, i will play that and catch everyone off guard, HAHA!"Quick fast forward to Saturday after round 8---------->3-4-1 or something to that nature, it appeared many had the same idead, as dragon seemed to be running rampant, as well as that lovely hate, which unfortunatly is genericly hated against anyways....Another side note, I really, really, really dislike Pithing Needle:-(

So I collect the cards for the 4th Place GenCon list and throw it together, seems to be playing nice mostly.....alright lets go!

Hale Simon Dragon....4th Place GenCon Championship:
Mana:
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Protection:
4 Force of Will
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth (should have been Chain of Vapor)----> I ran Chain of Vapor*

Combo:
4 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead
1 Shivan Hellkite
1 Sliver Queen-------> I ran Kumano*

Tutors:
3 Intuition
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Draw:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Compulsion
1 Ancestral Recall

Goblin Nabobs:
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Sideboard:
2 Sacred Ground
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Verdant Force
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Null Rod


Okay, first off, a few notes: Xantid Swarm=HOUSE! This card first turn once resolving is crazy, it is just one of those cards that once resolved leans towards GG.
I was not drawing anything near what I had hoped to, so it definetly made the day quite depressing, but I paid my $20 to get my butt whooped, while meeting some real cool people on the way.

While I am outside with my two teammates, The Lord of the Goats, and The Goat Lord (We will use their TMD names) one of which I had played the Dragon mirror against in I believe round two (Yeah, he drew the nuts, and I drew, well I am not sure). I said whats up, he introduced me to the other who was also playing Dragon, but he was playing the best out of the three of us. We got to talking about builds, well I talked about Simon's/Canadian's build, while he talked about his, the differences and he brought up some good points, enough to lead me to change my deck list for Sunday, which is why I am writing this post anyways....so without further ado, here is WTF Dragon, with some card explanation... Thanks Roach for the ideas....

WTF Dragon: (5C)
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Glimmervoid

4 Worldgorger Dragon
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Sliver Queen
1 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
1 Ambassador Laquatus -----> Where my lovely AIM s/n came about...

3 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
1 Compulsion

4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
3 Lim-Duls Vault
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation -----> Great replacement for Demonic Tutor!
1 Chain of Vapor

5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 PITHING NEEDLE -----> o yes, MD.

SB: (Still a tad sketchy)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Null Rod
2 Sacred Ground
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle

There it is, still a work in progress, when I spoke with the Goat Lord/Lord of the Goats, I got the idea from them to run Careful Study in place of the 2 compulsion, but instead, I cut one of the compulsions and added a Pithing Needle.

Let me just say, I have never hated and loved a card in this amount of time, as I have Pithing Needle, it is just wonderful. Demonic Consultation for Demonic Tutor, as well as cutting a Squee for Laquatus, which is a needed win condition in case the others are removed from Consultation.

Day two went a little better, I was pair against Gifts the first two games, one going with the new Time Vault/Flame Fullisade combo, and other taking the tradition Tinker/Colossus. I was swept by vault gifts, I was card screwed and before I could find any answers, I had Pithing Needle locked onto my Bazaar....(>) Second round, I go into game three with gifts, but universal hate is just GG a lot of times....So I am now in the low losers bracket 0-2.....I decide to play until I lose going against something with Possed Portal, welders, etc....We go to game three only after game one when I have the "text-book" dragon turn...swing with swarm, animate, etc...he bazaars when dragon C.I.P. ability stacks, discards some stuff, such as duplicant, welds in duplicant....um yeah...GG I LOSE! I squeek by game two, and go off about turn 3-4 on game three. 3 cc I win game one on about turn 2, and turn three he has me in lock with pithing needle set on Kumano and Bazaar, so I do the non-admerable, *sshole play and go into draw mode....Game three he concedes to me because i have no idea why..... 2-2

The deck drew a lot better the second day, despite going 0-2 start, but this is a list I am going to work on and hopefully make a lot better.....

My other 2 team mates had dropped, and convinced me to drop so we could head back to central new york. All and all my first waterbury was great, met awesome people, played some good people, lost to some bad decks that have no business being there, but thats life....but now I get to the point of this long article...if you have read this far, thank you very much, i need opinions on these decisions, and maybe changes that you would make, please let me know.....again, thank you to Lord of the Goat and The Goat Lord for the helpful ideas, in which I would not have changed.

Well I played Dragon this past weekend, and I wish I could have played you...j/k...Nice job on the finish btw...


In my opinion U/W Fish or WTF is the route to go for fish players, even though U/B is supposed to have some game, but I have not seen a list for it.

First off, U gives you a lot more disruption, i.e. FOW, Stifle possibly, Blue Blast, Meddling Mage (and white too).
Second, W gives you the other half of Mage, Swords, Sacred Ground, along with other things.
So this is one possibility, but ultimatley, I am in love with the WTF (Worse Than Fish) build.

It is 3 color; G/U/W: Withing this you get Meddling Made, Swords, FOW, Wild Monrgel, Basking Rootwalla, Rootwater Thief...along with some nifty artifacts in Umezawa's Jitte, and Aether Vial...as well as some spots for somehting like Pithing Needle because it is just damn ridiculous against certain things...i.e. that Dragon match-ups you played against, as well as goblin welder or mindslaver.......ridiculous!

Good luck which ever way you decide to go....

What about Kira, Great-Glass Spinner. Granted thief is a bomb-shell MD, I have set him aside in the SB for good reason. For the most part like I have said earlier, it totally comes down to the surrounding meta game. I am running the following creature base:

4 Mongrel
4 Rootwalla
4 Mages
3 Kira's
1 DSC
4 Mishra's Factories

So far it seems to work. The Kira helps against Welders, Seasingers, Old Man, and not to mention Swords to Plowshares which were running rampant in Rochester. I mean its totally meta game call, but I think she makes up for the UU1 mana cost with what she brings to the table. But again, just a suggestion, and let me know what you think.

I am not a real fan or Null Rod anymore. Granted it is a great card, and makes someone like a TPS player cry when you drop it first turn, but I like Chalice a lot better in today's meta versus Null Rod. Chalice for 0 against Combo Decks slows them down massivly, as well as making them think outside of their game plan to get rid of the Chalice. Chalice for 1 hurts Fish big time, as well as FCG, and Chalice for two hurts Oath, FCG, Cerebral Assassin, etc. Chalice can play a lot bigger role in most games as opposed to Null Rod.

I do not think that 4 Swords is overkill because it is easier to draw into them when there are 4 of them (duh). Swords is a very nice card, and deals with a lot of problems that you may encounter.

I am torn between Brainstorm and Impulse because Brainstorm can put things back from your hand to your library, while Impulse lets you dig deeper through your deck.

But how often is cursed scroll played? I mean you are perfectly right, it is a nice creature killer, but it just doesnt see that much play any more. If I had the choice of playing burn or something with scrolls, oath, fish, workshop, something incredibly broken, burn is going to be last on my list.