post-waterbury deck help (U/R fish)

[shadowmage006]

Well i got back from waterbury last night and i must say I did WAY better then i expected (5th place after 6th round, but dropped to 16th then 31st after 2 losses AND I was highest 15 or younger finisher). However the 2 decks I  really had trouble with were both dragons, and gifts so for the next mana drain open i know what to do in those matches. Here was the decklsit i used-

lands-
4x volcanic mountain
2x faerie conclave
4x mishra's factory
1x strip mine
4x flooded strand
4x wasteland
2x island
1x mountain
2x wooded foothills

creatures-
4x cloud of faeries
4x grim lavamancer
4x spiketail hatchling
3x gorilla shaman
3x ninja of the deep hours

spells-
4x force of will
1x misdirection
3x daze
1x stifle
3x null rod
4x standstill
1x time walk
1x ancestral recall

sideboard-
1x stifle
1x nullrod
3x rack and ruin
2x red elemental blast
1x pyroblast
2x blue elemental blast
3x energy flux
2x fire/ice

okay any coments on how i can change this decklist in ordr to better handle those archtypes would be appreciated. one thing i was thinking of changing was subbing the stifles for pithing needle, and taking out the rack and ruins for  3rd pithing needle, a 4th energy flux, and mabye another misdirection. Comments would be appreciated.

[Sgt. Pepper]

lands-
4x volcanic mountain
2x faerie conclave
4x mishra's factory
1x strip mine
4x flooded strand
4x wasteland
2x island
1x mountain
2x wooded foothills

There are a couple of things wrong with this manabase in my opinion. First, is a basic mountain really needed? It might be nice against Crucible + Wasteland, but in any other situation I would much Rather have a basic Island instead. Therefore I would take out the Mountain and Wooded Foothills and replace them with Polluted Delta and Island. Second, I would probably take out those Conclave's. Coming into play tapped is very bad, there no Islands for Daze and they cost 2 mana to activate. Replace them with Islands.

4x cloud of faeries
4x grim lavamancer
4x spiketail hatchling
3x gorilla shaman
3x ninja of the deep hours

Seems reasonable, though I have no idea if the Spiketails are still any good.

4x force of will
1x misdirection
3x daze
1x stifle
3x null rod
4x standstill
1x time walk
1x ancestral recall

Cut the one offs (Misdirection and Stifle). Maybe it's just me, but I think random one offs are horrible. You can't count on them and they always show up when you don't want them. Also, I the matchups where you want to draw Stifle and/or Misdirection you're going to want to draw them early, which means you're going to want multiples in order to maximize the chances of drawing them. So either make a choice between Stifle or Misdirection or cut the both.

The rest looks standard, but you might want to try and run Chalice of the Void + AEther Vial ( + Jitte). This will require the sacrifice of some card slots, but it will make your Standstills better, as well as you're Ninja's. Thanks to the 3 Shamans you can also eat any Mox that gets passed you're Chalice.

Last suggestion: you might want to consider splashing White. White gives you Meddling Mage instead of Cloud of Faeries/Spiketail and white gives you Swords to Plowshares, an out against Darksteel Colossus.

Good luck with you're deck.

[yespuhyren]

I understand playing fish, but do you have any reason to want to stay U/R?  If you do, thats fine, and I'm not sure where to help that hasn't been said already, BUT if you want to play U/W, you have some other options that can make the deck a more dangerous one for opponents to handle.

Here is a strong U/W fish list - this is the OFM 2K5 list played by Canadians, Team Listowel, and put two guys in T8 at SCG Rochester

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
2 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod

Creatures
4 Cloud Of Faeries
3 Meddling Mage
4 Ninja Of The Deep Hours
2 Old Man Of The Sea

Enchantments
2 Seal Of Cleansing
4 Standstill

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Swords To Plowshares

Sorceries
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
3 Island
1 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Chalice Of The Void
2 Control Magic
3 Energy Flux
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Dismantling Blow
2 Swords To Plowshares

This is the list I would play, as its a very strong deck, and I've been beaten by them before.  As for budgetizing the deck, here are some possibilities.

-1 lotus, 2 moxes, -----> 1x tundra, 1x island, 1 polluted delta

That is what I would do if I were you.  Hope that helps you.

[Moxlotus]

Cut the one offs (Misdirection and Stifle). Maybe it's just me, but I think random one offs are horrible. You can't count on them and they always show up when you don't want them. Also, I the matchups where you want to draw Stifle and/or Misdirection you're going to want to draw them early, which means you're going to want multiples in order to maximize the chances of drawing them. So either make a choice between Stifle or Misdirection or cut the both. 

1-ofs are amazing.  If you play a random Misdirection, your opponent may play around it the rest of the match.  1-ofs completely throw off your opponent.

[Greenebean]

Well I played Dragon this past weekend, and I wish I could have played you...j/k...Nice job on the finish btw...


In my opinion U/W Fish or WTF is the route to go for fish players, even though U/B is supposed to have some game, but I have not seen a list for it.

First off, U gives you a lot more disruption, i.e. FOW, Stifle possibly, Blue Blast, Meddling Mage (and white too).
Second, W gives you the other half of Mage, Swords, Sacred Ground, along with other things.
So this is one possibility, but ultimatley, I am in love with the WTF (Worse Than Fish) build.

It is 3 color; G/U/W: Withing this you get Meddling Made, Swords, FOW, Wild Monrgel, Basking Rootwalla, Rootwater Thief...along with some nifty artifacts in Umezawa's Jitte, and Aether Vial...as well as some spots for somehting like Pithing Needle because it is just damn ridiculous against certain things...i.e. that Dragon match-ups you played against, as well as goblin welder or mindslaver.......ridiculous!

Good luck which ever way you decide to go....

[islanderboi10]

The other "Fish" Varient isn't exaclty called Fish. I like to call it fish becuase they basically do the same thing. Play little guys, counter stuff, attack. Just the little guys in this deck get bigger. If you haven't noticed, I'm talking about BirdSh*t.

I think the deck kind of plays like Fish.

[Greenebean]

Worse Than Fish is a combination of like three decks: Fish, Madness, and Bird Shit

Honestly again, in my opinion WTF has the best game against most, but I guess everyone has their own opinion.

[islanderboi10]

Plus WTF can deal with Big Creatures.
I mean so can U/W Phish, but with WTF you have a better game and better answers against Workshop decks*cough*aggro*cough*.

[Greenebean]

Yes sir, that is correct...I loved playing WTF but then I decided to attempt to take the meta by surprise by playing Dragon, yeah the good that did:-D

WTF most likely has the best overall macth up in a field over any of the other fish builds. Plus in my version I added Tinker/Colossus.

[yespuhyren]

Plus WTF can deal with Big Creatures.
I mean so can U/W Phish, but with WTF you have a better game and better answers against Workshop decks*cough*aggro*cough*.

damnit man shut your mouth, people aren't supposed to know what fish is good against my shop aggro deck  :lol:

[islanderboi10]

I mean, no Fish deck can deal with Workshop Aggro. 

They are all still generally bad match-ups vs Workshop Aggro. But, WTF just has a better chance. You should still expect to lose though as it is still a bad match-up.

[yespuhyren]

I mean, no Fish deck can deal with Workshop Aggro. 

They are all still generally bad match-ups vs Workshop Aggro. But, WTF just has a better chance. You should still expect to lose though as it is still a bad match-up.

Good man 

Now, to give you some advice about beating workshop aggro, WTF is truly going to give you the best odds.  The best you can really do is try and get a mongrel out as soon as possible, as it has no problem growing larger than almost any creature, and with a Jitte on the board, I've seen mongrels sodomize juggernauts, su-chi, trikes, and more, and in ways that even a farmer wouldn't do to his own livestock, and thats just not right.

U/R has virtually no ways of dealing with shop aggro decks, as its missing STP and Wild Mongrel, something WTF carries both of.  OFM 2K5, however, is a very strong deck with seals and STP to get rid of fat, Old Mans to steal welders, and has just been a very powerful deck that continues to place well in the Canadian metagame.

Jason

[shadowmage006]

honestly, i think that the worse then fish build is good, and provide altos of answers, however it does seem to me like it would have some problems w/the mana base. And i may consider switching over to U/W fish, I'll have to proxy some of the cards and test it a bit.

overall i'm not sure how i lost to dragons, i think it might've had something to do with luck as a factor, i wasn't able to get out enough counters and didn't pack enough stifles to beat the dragon.

some other things though-
1. the reason i picked U/R, i'm not completely sure of but i made the deck around the last mana drain open and made it because i think it was mostly the only fish deck i knew of

2. whatever happens i know i'm going to be packing 4x energy fluxes in sideboard and atleast 1 stifle mindeck and 2 sideboard for next time.

3. also does voidmage prodigy have any place? I have about 3 copys of it lying from back around onslaught and was curious if it'd be worth using them

[islanderboi10]

Kai's are kinda the sukxorz in Vintage right now. Sure they can get you out of some tight situations, but there are better things.

[yespuhyren]

You shouldn't be beating dragon.  Other than the 1 stifle, you have no sure way to beat them.  Force of will stops an animation spell, and they generally play 7 or 8.  Unless they go off within the first 2 or 3 turns, then your dazes are also more or less useful.  Even with all the right cards, you really need to hit stifle, and thats assuming they haven't already duressed away one of your answers, or played a xantid swarm (depending on the version of Dragon, as there are a variety of versions)

U/R was played a lot, and I stress the WAS, as it hasn't seen a large amount of success in the last year or so, and maybe even longer.  The deck originally ran up to 2 voidmage prodigy, but were eventually decided to be too inefficient and slow, even though they turned grim lavamancers into counterspells also.  They were cut, and should stay so, as there are just better options for a fish deck to run.

Here is a bit of history on the evolution of WTF, and how I rogued up fish for my own uses.  Looking at the lists and posts would be good, as you can see the feedback given to our ideas, and some of the reasoning we chose to run certain cards which you may be unsure of.

Jacob Orlove had posted the original (to my knowledge) WTF lists
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=17893.0 (WTF/r)
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=15899.0(WTF u/g)

I also came up with a mildly successful list called Tropical Fish

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=19849.msg320474#msg320474

Note that his lists are a year and a half old, and mine is a little over a year old.  What I'm trying to say, is DO NOT netdeck those lists, as they are inadequate and made for very different metagames.  I linked you to Orloves lists so you could see the natural progression of a fish deck as Orlove rogued it up (from what I'm told, he and his guys were the creators of WTF).

My list is there to show you what a little bit of innovation can do to a deck, and it was successful when I played it again.  The main thing with fish is MAKE A DECK YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH AND ENJOY PLAYED, BUT IS ALSO STRONG  

I really think the key to a successful one is not netdecked version, but fish should be a constantly evolving deck, and I would NEVER run the same list in different areas.  The deck should be tweaked for the metagame, and therefore should always be doing what it does best.  Suprise.  The most difficult deck to beat is something that you are not familiar with, do not know what is in, and do not know what its going to play next.

Hopefully this gave you some insight into running fish, and hopefully you will have as much fun playing it as I did with Tropical Fish.  Congrats on the finish, especially being so young, and hopefully you'll place even higher next time

Jason

[Methuselahn]

However the 2 decks I  really had trouble with were both dragons, and gifts so for the next mana drain open i know what to do in those matches. ... okay any coments on how i can change this decklist in ordr to better handle those archtypes would be appreciated.

have you tried Tormod's Crypt?  It's a solid card versus Dragon and Gifts.

[mr_rogers]

I agree with Methuselahn about Tormod's Crypt.  I even ran one main deck ay one of Waterbury for all the Dragon and Gifts decks. As for R'n'R vs. Shaman main deck I'd have to go Shaman.  The monkey is amazing, he won me three games at least at waterbury.

[JigglyPuff]

Mox monkey is definitely the stronger play ...

[yacub the spoiler]

Glad to see you around Jpuff.  I read some of your other posts and I have to say I am a big big fan.  You seem really knowledgable.  I tried putting a U/R fish deck together and I wasnt really impressed with what it did.  I guess I just have a different play style.  I was out of the mix for a while and I have just recently made my return.  I actually went to the Waterbury tournament last weekend and had a decent time.  I would say that I was thrown by the amount of self-playing decks.  I guess it's bound to happen. 

Competition was pretty intense at the tourny.  Except my third round match, it was kind of weak, and the kid I played against timed it out because he knew that if he didn't take the draw, he would walk with a loss. 

Anyway, any advice as to why there are no lotus's in the deck lists I have seen for fish?  Also, I understand the use of fetchlands to thin the deck, but with all of the mixed up nonbasic lands, does anyone else run into trouble?