I think that prize pay out OK.  They did give out more most events do to top 4.  I think that the majority of mox events 5th-8th don't don't much either.  Players don't go to events for 5th-8th place prizes.  I would re-attend if the pay out was the same.  If it was only first place for a mox, or any other piece of power I would pass.  There are many other shops closer to me that I could play at.  For me I have to way out if the pay out is worth the distance involved for travel.  I kind of think of 2nd-4th as bonus prizes.

I am using Infernal Tutor in my mono black workshop deck.  Ithas so far shown to be a gerat inclusion. 

Great article, as I am in the process of purchasing a beta lotus.  I hope you were able to get your funds back. 

Beware of user ian9866,  He is and has been selling preorders of Dissension and right after I paid using paypal he e mailed me back saying I was just scammed. His feedback is still going up, I filed a complaint with paypal about his e mail and wanted a refund, but they completed the case because he showed proof he was going to send out the cards.  I still will not believe it until I see the cards in my mailbox. 

I tried e mailing the mods on where to put this thread, but of course I got no reply.  So this is my best logical guess.  Thanks for your time and I hope that you don't have to deal with this guy.

I have read many threads on this topic one many different forums and I do not think it is solely Wizards fault.  Personally I think that Starcity Games bought time vaults for more then they have before and got a lot of them and then a month ago when Wizards was going to make the formal announcement SCG got greedy and paid off Wizards to delay the announcement so they could get rid of their excess supply of Time Vaults at a much higher price.  Because face it Wizards and Starcity are both businesses and they will do whatever they can to make an extra buck off us consumers, especially starcity games.

Vegan Freak and Diet for a New America

Is by Ron Spencer, it is ISOE drinking out of a Crucible of the World.  It's pretty cool, I tried to get a pic of it but I don't know how to host and whatever it is called.  Peace! 

Sorry for another post, but I just wanted to let everyone know that this did NOT happen at Hobbytown USA.  It might have sounded like that but, the players involved may be attending the mox events.  Peace

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8749367915&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8749369678&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

I saw these on ebay and I asked the seller to a scan of the front and back and the scans had black borders, and I asked the guy if they were Beta and he told me to mind my own business.  I have been watching his feeback to see if the buyer leaves feedback. 

This is offtopic, but I think it needs to be said.  I used to live in Nebraska and I used to play at the Hobbytown USA and I always had good experiences, but there is a group of guys from Grand Island that was able to get away with a bunch of my cards.  Most of the fault was me being really new and thinking I could trust them.  They might have been at the last mox event, I am not sure.  But it is just a warning.  If you want names please e mail me of PM  thanks

I agree.  I think if I am not using proxies I should pay less, because I have already made an investment to play Vintage Magic.  I also think for those places that charge for proxies should charge at least $2 for each proxy and not give any free.  This would help with creating a larger prize structure, which my in turn get a larger turn out.  In all honesty though it will be hard to ban proxies bebecausehey are already out there in great numbers.  I personally think and I have just recently resorted to using a few proxies.  I made that choice when I realized that if at least 90% of the players are using them I would be at a disadvantage to not put in an ancestral recall in my deck.  If proxies weren't allowed there would be a lot of partially powered decks which would even out the field in the long run.  I am sure there are a lot of us 3 power owners out there that could compete at Vintage magic.

very true, but I was not really thinking about borrowing cards, I have done it in the past and I have also let friend borrow my cards, but somewhere down the line someone bought, traded or found those cards.  I am not sure what PTQs and PTs are but I am still new to magic and I know that I will never proxy a black lotus in a tournament setting.

And if you want to win then you should buy the cards you need to win.  That's what I am trying to do and a lot of other players that own power have done. 

I agree that playing is the best way to get better as a player, but you don't have to play with the best cards.  I learn and have learned a lot just by playing against power decks.

Yes I would.  I see a lot of people go 0-5 with a fully powered deck.  I would rather people save up and work for their cards rather then just write on a land card what they want.  I worked hard for what I have, and I don't have much but what I do have I worked hard for.  Also this might be a little off topic. But I am going to go for it anyways, Where did proxies originate from, and who was tetheirst to use them in totourneys  Thanks RJ

I would rather see the same people win day after day.  I think we should let people think and build their own decks to create diversity in the meta.  Proxies would be ok if and only if you are testing your deck against a potential deck you might see at an event.

I agree with you 100%.  When I owned no power and actually got A. Recall and Time Walk mixed up I played with budget decks and I beat a few tier one decks (only because the players just netdecked and didn't know how to use the deck) but I would use what I have.  Everyone starts out that way, or at least should start out that way.  Players that started during beta had to buy their moxes, players such as myself that started during mirrodin still have to buy moxes.  Granted the price has increased over years but that is the price one must pay in order to play.  If you don't want to buy your cards then you should play.   Peace RJ

Without the cards you have no game.  The more I read this thread and think about it, especially what jank said about paying more for proxies, I might be ok with a scenario like $15 entry fee and $2-$3 for each proxy, this would increase prize support majorly to allow these proxy players to win a piece of power or a mana drain.  This way players may be able to play in a vintage event and possibly get a $200+ card for $40. It also gets smaller stores to give better prize support which would get more players to come out.  Even if they give 8-16th places 3 boosters of whatever is current.  I am sure there are a lot of flaws with this scenario that I just gave, but I think if I enter an event with no proxies then I should pay less then the guy that pays the same as me for 10 free proxies.  It took me 5 months to one of my moxes.  Finding stores and people willing to give it up and then trying to out trade/bid the person for it.  I like most players do not have unlimited funds so if some guy that has a career is competing with me,  a poor college student, to out trade or bid for a mox he may have an extra $50 to put down to get a that mox from me.  Lucky me I found a guy also in trade that sympathized a little for me and I gave him some extra cards that I promised to pay back in a month. 

moral of the story make pay more to use proxies, and I am not talking about $1 for each proxy over 10.  more like no freebies.

To me proxies are great for testing decks, or practicing.  I use proxies for in place of the real card 99% of the time and only use the real cards for the actual event.  I see that is ok, but playing a the event with the proxy cards is wrong.  I have yet to play in an event with a proxy.  I started playing Vintage as a total scrub with out drains, FOW, Welders, nothing.  The closest thing I had to a vintage card was Dark Rits in a shared fate deck, I got a lot crap from other players saying i could have proxied FOW at least, but it is not me, I would fell dirty if I did that.  Especially since there were guys there that were proud of their cards.  Now that I have some money cards I am proud of them.  I have two Italian drains, but they are mine and I am proud of them because I saved my money and earned them.  For those that just proxy up the cards they need the night before there is nothing to be proud about a plains with Black Lotus on it.  It would be like if I took a can of spray paint and painted Hummer on my truck and I took it out and expected it to perform the same as other Hummers.  It just won't happen.  As much as I would like to have a high end off road vehicle I have to drive with what I can afford and have.  So basically if you don't own power or if you don't own dark rits you should not be allowed to pretend you have them.  I would rather play again someone who busted their ass building a deck with the cards they own rather then play with a deck that have cards that everyone should pretend they own.  When I played with my shared fate deck yeah I got my ass handed to me most of the time, but I was able to win a few games, but I was playing my deck with my cards.  It gave me the drive to obtain better and more powerful cards to be able to play with the big dogs.  I am still far far from that level of play but now since I have some higher end cards I am getting closer to building the "optimal" build of current tier 1 decks.  In my case I know if I took my semi powered deck to an event I might and would probably still lose to an unpowered deck.  Money cards does not guarantee a win.  I am sure that my opinion will not change anyones mind I enjoy looking at both sides of this topic.  I would like to see more people get into vintage magic, but one does not need a full set of power to even consider playing.  I started out with what I had a rogue Type 2 deck with Dark Rits.  Now I am trying to build a budget Control slaver deck.  Thanks for listening to my rant.  Peace RJ

Another reason why these United States of America is subpar

I know I am new to the formet and this board, but I feel that proxies are a bad idea.  When I first started Vintage, and by vintage I mean a bad meta in Nebraska where only one guy had power and only had a 3 pieces.  I played a shared fate deck that did well in that meta, but as I slowed increased my collection to include some high end cards I am now able to consider playing competitive vintage.  If I knew and wanted to use proxies then I would not put getting a mox as a priority and just write Jet on a forest.  Proxies are only good testing or for using in casual play so you don't have an accident and bend or spill coke on your mox.  I would rather see more sanctioned Vintage events.  I would even pay more for that ability. 

My name is RJ and I am from San Diego! 

I have been playing since Fifth Dawn, I still consider myself a newb.  I am attempting to play Vintage, I am really intimidated by this forum.  I am reading a lot of the tourney results to see how people play their decks.  I have been to a few prereleases but that is all the tourney play I have.  I am really looking for a group to get into and be the quiet newb that watches for a while and then begins to play.  I have a semi-competitive deck, I have a few of the staples for a decent vintage deck, but being freshly out of college I lack the funds for such cards.  In a five proxy event I could easily build any deck I want. 

so if anyone in the San Diego area wants to help me out, I will play hard and work hard not to let you down!   Peace RJ

I am in the same boat you are, I went to school in Nebraksa and of all places I was able to find more Magic action there then in San Diego.  I have been posting for about three months trying to find people to playtest Vintage decks.  I have a deck but I have yet to actually use it.  I have a few power pieces but it still is competitive (I think).  Please e mail me when you get back if you are intrested in playing Vintage.  E mail me also if you find any other players in San Diego.  the19inchgecko@hotmail.com   Thanks RJ

Main Deck

1  strip mine
4  wastelend
4  Mishra's workshop
4  Gemstone mine
4  Glimmervoid
1  underground sea
1  mox jet
1  mox sapphire
1  mox ruby
1  mox pearl
1  mox emerald
1  block lotus
1  chrome mox
2  sundering titan
1  darksteel colossus
4  goblin welder
4  mana drain
4  force of will
4  intuition
2  brain storm
1  karn silver golem
1  tinker
4  duress
1  vampiric tutor
1  demonic tutor
1  mystical tutor
1  sol ring
4  accumulated knoledge

side broad
4 hymn of tourach
2 crucilbe of worlds
4 stifle
4 chalice of void
1 platnium angel

This is my first type one deck and my first post.  
I have 4 glimmervoids in the deck would it be wiser to use City of Brass instead?  I would like to try to be competetive with this deck.  I recently placed 5th in a 10 man event in Lincoln Nebraska.  Thanks