I haven't posted here in years, but I have been playtesting this and a couple of other decks (mostly just goldfishing and MWS games) and I have a quick question about a possible (sideboard) inclusion.


Dream Salvage b/u
Instant
Draw Cards equal to the number of cards target opponent discarded this turn


___

This might not be the deck for it (thought about tog variants as well), but I've been toying around with it a little bit and its been rather good in particular matchups.  I don't have tournament experience with it, but having 5 ancestral recalls in your deck against anything running bazaar seems quite good on the surface.

I've been putting it in my SB as a 4 of with any u/b colored decks just so I'd have a chance to see what it can do, and I've found it to be opportunistically in gaining some early card advantage against turn 1 bazaar.

Maindeck reb works against one deck... a blue deck, and my deck already plays out g1 ok as is against control. Piledriver and lackey are a house, and having 2 must counters on turn 1 and 2... helps alot.

Tin street is being playtested in place of vandal actually, and is doing quite nicely. Being able to kill a smokestack early without having to wait a turn to attack, or killing a jug/cow/titan/chalice at 1/ tanglewire/etc on casting is pretty good, eh?

Yes blue gives me ice... meaning i get a better clock against darksteel colossus. Blue gives me timewalk, which means I get to swing again, or drop a wasteland, and still get another land drop on the same fundamental turn, blue also gives me acestral recall, and bounce spells.

Needing extra artifact/enchant hate (white) doesnt seem to be what im looking for, but if i were playing in an oath heavy meta, or a meta where i really felt i needed it, Im sure i would splash white (and maybe think of the faux goblin trenches kill, but it seems like a stretch with this deck),. Black offers edict, purge (or turn 1 gy hate), and some duress, but i dont want to cast duress turn 1... I want to get a threat out.

Because control slaver is an explosive deck, and when you get slavered your own welder ends up playing against you. Ill give you he stops colossus, but colossus only comes out if you're careless enough to let him out. 2U and an artifact isnt the cheapest casting cost for a 3 turn clock. Maybe think about the other disruption the deck is packing, along with 6 blasts, and 2 bounce spells (not to mention maze and crop rotation).

Welder just becomes a really bad beatstick for 1. Given he has synergy with goblins, but he doesnt beat out monkey for his job, not by a long shot.

I'm still playesting this deck, almost exclusively online, and I'm shocked that no one chimed in with any inputs on the build.


I know that people generally get a feel from a deck just by looking at the cards therein, and as such on a first glance...



Did I miss something? Is this deck really that bad that it warrants no discussion what-so-ever? Its very easy to pilot, and has been able to cause alot of disruption and win games that people wouldnt think of traditionally winning (ie: your opponent sees about 10 cards more than you do, but doesnt have the answer to your threat or enough steam to cast said answer)...

The disruption in the deck has been amazing, and the 6 blasts post-side give me alot of advantage when I go up against anything with a blue-based drawing mechanism. The artifact removal has been stellar, and surprisingly the 2 maindeck bounce spells have playtested as a worthy inclusion; even with just 2 slots dedicated.

Hello,

It has been well over a year since I last posted or played competitive magic in person, but I recently got back into playing a lot online and would like to post what I have been toying with as well as give you some thoughts from about 200 games of playtesting.

The deck's focus came from the fact that Ive seen a lot of combo, and artifact based decks online (mostly stax, cs, strange mask builds, a lot of tendrils-based kill decks, and plenty of bazaars mixed in there).

I was busy reading around here to try and find some help with this new metagame Ive witnessed (I left during slavers dawn, and bazaar being thrown into restricted conversations), when i came across a couple of cards from the new blocks:


1
Pithing needle

Artifact

Errata:  As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card. ; Activated abilities of the named card can't be played unless they're mana abilities.


R
Raze

Sorcery

Errata:  As an additional cost to play Raze, sacrifice a land. ; Destroy target land. [Oracle 1999/05/01]


1R
Tin Street Hooligan

Creature Goblin Rogue

Errata:  2/1. ; When Tin Street Hooligan comes into play, if was spent to play Tin Street Hooligan, destroy target artifact.



These cards all intrigued me in some way.  Each seemingly dealing with some of the problems I was having playing in this new metagame online.  I started fine-tuning a decklist (and have been ever since).  The decklist centers on goblins, but has elements from other RG hate decks of days gone by, and some broken blue plays that people are familiar with.



Each card with a *** next to it will be discussed below


Guided Passage.dec  In case you care about the name origin, Guided Passage is the only URG cc card in MTG

#Land#

1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

1 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

1 Tropical Island ***
3 Volcanic Island
4 Taiga

#Jewelry#

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire ***
1 Mox Ruby

#Broken#

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

#Land-kill#

3 Raze ***
1 Crop Rotation

#Hate and answers#

4 Fire-Ice
1 Echoing truth***
1 Chain of vapor***
3 Pithing Needle ***
3 Gorilla Shaman ***
4 Tin Street Hooligan ***

#Engine#

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Siege-gang Commander
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic ***

60 Cards






Discussion:

1 Tropical Island: 
Ive run into situations where i really, really, really need red mana, and this guy creeps into my top-deck.  I'm seriously thinking this card has no place in my deck, but it was randomly good in a few situations early on in testing.

2 Bounce cards
These cards have both seemed to be worthwhile in the event of chalice hitting what i want to cast or fat, or welders, and the list goes on... I just wish it was more consistently there for game 1. Game 2 I use these with my oath killers against oath, but these are my only 2 answers game 1.

1 Mox Sapphire:
Why not lotus? I like the fact I can tap this more than once, but I've also run into situations, like with the tropical island, where red mana seems essential in the situation. This card is great fuel for fire/ice, but seems like it would fit better if i was using brainstorm as a filtering mechanism (more discussion on that later).

3 Raze:
Raze seems to be the card that pushes this deck beyond just being another aggro-hate goblins build.  Raze takes care of a tough landstill match-up, helps a lot in the case where someone drops 1st turn academy, or even first turn island, and the casting cost is as good as I could have hoped for.

3 Pithing Needle:
These are dead on a number of occasions, but when they're not dead, they're bombtastic. They MUST be dealt with, and allow me to use my knowledge of other decks (which is growing slowly, but is catching up) to hurt those decks. Once again, the casting cost is great, and I cant help but enjoy dropping this turn 1 of game two and naming bazaar.

Which brings me to my point. Should these be strictly a sideboard option?? I rarely know exactly what to say game 1, and I have a tough time against most aggro decks currently. So would this card be better suited as something to stop aggro decks, and that way I could save the needles for the sideboard???




3 Gorilla Shaman:
He comes out for 1, and he eats moxen, but hes not a goblin, and he stinks at attacking.  With tin street in my deck, shaman hasn't been the bomb I'm used to it being, but hes been good enough to hold his spot over vandal, tinkerer, heretic, or oxidize (for now).


4 Tin street Hooligan
This card has been outright nuts since I started playing it.  Having a turn 2 answer to any sort of artifact drop is great in my book, and I really think these guys are an auto-include in any RG deck currently. The fact that it beats for 2, and is a goblin, is just that much more gravy on my pie.



4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Fire/ice haven't played out as enough DD to stop some decks. I feel by including fanatics I can at least have more pings around if/when I need them. This card used to be goblin grenade, but it really felt like a win-more card in most situations, and didn't have synergy with shaman at all of course. This card gives me more fuel to my goblin-crazed fire, and the cc is just right.




Cards that have been tested:

Forest/Island - In the face of wasteland lock - I didn't feel i needed either of these cards considering R is really what makes my deck go

Mana Leak - This card was very very good in some spots, but without a draw engine, i never seemed to have it when i needed it

Living wish - This card was getting me maze/kara/sharpshooter game 1, but that wasn't worth the tempo loss


Grim Lavamancer - no synergy with goblins, though he is a great card to think about if i ever wanted to move from goblins to a more balanced creature-based attack If i retool this deck so that its not goblins-based, this card will be going in. he works so well with raze.... Another Great choice if I go this route seems to be Dryad, which would lean toward a more control-ish deck. I think Mana leak, brainstorm, fow would be auto-includes.


Goblin sharpshooter - hes great against fish and small things, but i never see him when i want to, and his 1-turn lag time to be effective oft means hes gone off the table

Goblin Matron - I don't know why I tested matron

Goblin Medics - These guys weren't bad, and really seemed to help my tempo a lot. The cc made it so i could cast them if i needed, and the pinging ability was another plus.  These might eventually creep back in.

Goblin Grenade - This card playtested like jank. It was never around when i needed to press the issue for the win, and was always at the top of my deck when i needed a land or creature.

Stifle -See mana leak

Cunning wish (with a sideboard that included mis-d, fow, stifle, reb, zerk, cov, r&r, shattering pulse, beb, etc)

Rancor *** Still seems like a great card to include, as it lets me run over opponents minis, and keeps coming back. How to fit it though and still have enough steam??

Fledgling dragon(MD) - Tempo loss from 4 cc was harsh.. but hes still a beast.

Brainstorm      *** I still think that brainstorm or some form of search is needed... I looked at ninja of the deep hours as well, but just haven't found a good way to fit them in.  I'm really looking for help by posting this, so if you have some good input, thanks in advance.




Now for what Ive been sideboarding:


Side:

3 Red Elemental Blast (This deck hates blue stuff)

3 Pyroblast

1 Rack and ruin (3cc artifact kill for chalice at 1 and 2)

1 Maze of ith (Oath, DSC)

1 Karakas (Oath)

3 Tormod's Crypt (Ground seal???)

3 fledgling dragon


Comments:


3 Fledgling Dragon
I get wrecked by random aggro. This guy evades, gets huge, and loves to munch on rootwater thieves. He also gets really big for that last swing of the game.

3 Tormod's Crypt: Many great matchups for this card currently. It drops for 0, and gives me time to work on my clock.

2 Lands : Karakas/ Maze: Oath still wrecks this deck, as does DSC, but with these 2, the two maindeck bounce spells, and crop rotation, I improve my chances on seeing an answer.

Other cards to keep in mind: Rushing river, Ground Seal, blue elemental blast, Goblin sharpshooter, artifact mutation, Cunning wish (MD) (with a sideboard that includes mis-d, fow, stifle, reb, zerk, cov, r&r, shattering pulse, beb, etc) ***as mentioned above***





Metagaming with this hate deck.


Waterfront bouncer.
This guy is a house. He puts DSC back where he belongs, punches dragon in the face, helps against stax, and is cheap control.  He fuels up my yard, so I can cast a big dragon faster, or he helps fuel the grim lavamancer removal fire that is charring welders left-and-right.

Mana leak/Stifle: These cards arent proactive and totally change the focus of the deck, but are the correct choices in certain metagames.  If you see a ton of bombs that you couldnt otherwise keep in someones hand/deck/yard with this deck, this might be the route for you.

Timmy, lord of the elves/bigger characters/sligh deck: The sligh player checks out to your removal and goblin assault. They also run out of steam much before you do, but have less dead cards game 1 (unless you name cursed scroll with pithed). The elf/random aggro player is something strange to watch out for, because you'll eventually run into someone who's goal is to create a 50/50 elf that gains him infinite amounts of life everytime it untaps/taps whatever... These green creatures are normally fatter than my lackey's, and tend to punch my deck in the face game 1, so if youre meta has alot of scrub aggro, you might want to be maindecking dragons to fly over the onslaught of elves, or at least some sort of reset button for his horde of tokens/elves whatever.  This deck doesnt thrive on scrub aggro beatdown, thats the job of lesser decks, ie combo decks.

Control-heavy meta: Youre already playing 8 blasts in the sideboard, and have the strips to keep them short on mana, but what if your meta includes alot of mono blue/blue white??? The answer could of course be anything from maindecking blasts, to simply playing a tight game and getting your threats out early. Force of will doesnt stop this deck, and mana drain doesnt normally find fat targets, but decks that consistently have bigger creatures and can still draw (see phids, ninja, etc) are going to be a big problem. Even a turn 2 dryad would hurt this deck a lot if left unchecked.  This sort of meta requires much preparation for the sort of game where a 20 turn clock can be the right decision. When pithings, needles, and shamans are all looking to be dead cards, is when you hope that the sideboard will bring you dominance.

Dragon heavy/Oath metas: I wouldnt be playing this deck in either meta, rather a deck more like the mana leak/stifle build talked about above. Stifle is a house against alot of decks, but nothing gets hurt more than dragon, and oath hates seeing waterfront toss-akroma. In either case, youre going to have to make some changes to your deck in order to stay competitive. Completely removing the win condition for something else is a legit decision in both of these cases, and modifying the disruption to include spells that stop bombs from going off (force) would also be the correct call. I can give plenty of pointers if youre thinking of running this brand of hate in an environment full of oath/dragon, and I hope you wouldnt worry to still pilot something like this.

Shopland: Welcome home. Shops are everywhere in the midwest, and because of this fact... this deck was born. Shaman, tin street, even shattering spree could all make their way into your maindeck, and opposing welders just means you know where your fanatics/ fire/ices will be heading. Early lackey => gang bang stops the tanglewire beatdown, and your ld becomes that much more important in the early game.  Shop players will still go broken on you from time to time, and theyre also going to drop chalice for both 1 and 2 which halts much of this deck. Its then that you need rack and ruin to the rescue, and less red blast answers.

CS: very different from Stax in the fact that those 6 blasts help alot post board. TfK kneels before the powerful red blast, and with no mana to hardcast their precious beats, no welders on the table, and pithing needled bazaars, players with really expensive decks get really frustrated. =) =) =). Its those times when you sit back, relax and rip ancestral off the top of your deck, just to add insult to injury.




Edit: Thanks kelp, improvement is probably best for this list/discussion

**Also if someone could point me to a thread that specifically gives pointers on playing pithing needle I'd appreciate it.  I have searched, and there are just so many posts that discuss this card, its very hard to find the content I'm looking for**







Some Playtesting Notes:

My mana base so far has been great, though I recently took out the sapphire for a lotus, and have seen much more explosive starts to my games.  Early game is so important against decks like stax and cs, and even gifts with their great drawing mechanisms that I felt I needed to get out early and at least maintain some semblance of the tempo they thrive off.  Tin Street Hooligan is still nuts, and even when hes not eating moxen/null rods/smoke stacks, he beats for 2 and pumps my piledrivers. He is the engine that makes my deck not suck so bad. Fire/ice have started to show up a lot more now that I'm playing all 4 fanatics rather than 3 welders. The replacement has really helped a lot, and given me answers to pesky 1/1s that kill my deck (mancer, welder, etc). 

Having 5 strips, 3 Raze, and 1 crop rotation has worked wonders for my deck so far. Ive seen plenty of LD to disrupt my opponent's until i can lackey out a big gobbo and gain some control. Though sometimes the momentum shift isn't enough to win the game (tangle wire really hurts my deck sometimes).

Gorilla shaman still seems to be overshadowed in my deck.  Turn 1 he is still a nice drop, though sometimes with a hand (playing first) of lackey, tin street, shaman, 4 cards - I tend to push out the lackey, and then drop the turn 2 tin street to kill their moxen. The tin street is much more of a surprise because his ability lies in casting rather than on the table, and his momentum swings have been more powerful. I still like shaman a lot when playing second because he allows me to wipe the table as quickly as possible.  There have even been game 1's against dragon where they're able to get all their components into the graveyard and still not win because of the constant assault of their mana base.

One of the toughest matchups for me thusfar has been fish and other aggro/control decks. Fish and Landstill have been very tough because my deck wants to cast spells and their fat is bigger and comes out just as fast. Post board I get a lot of help with REb/pyroblast and dragons if needed, but game 1 my results are TERRIBLE.

Oath decks are a very very hard match up game 1, and get slightly better game 2, but i still wouldn't call it a homerun at all. Its a very tense match for me everytime, and it seems to always be a close match of my slow clock eating them up, and their quick clock, kicking my ass. 



Not having any search/ redundancy:

I have no search in my deck. Ancestral might count, but its used to refill most of the time, so I'll avoid it. fire/ice can be cycled (and are quite often), but for the most part, my deck is an adventure in redundancy and the art of the mulligan. Throwing back a 6,7 card hand to establish a much better 5 card hand is essential with my deck, where using so many 3 and 4s I see stupid hands occasionally.  This same redundancy though allows me to anticipate my next move, and means I'm drawing steam more often that filler in my deck.  My solid mana-base and early threats really comes out against decks that need a lot of mana to thrive, and even against decks with similar mana curves, sometimes my early disruption is enough to outright WIN the match.

          Its not that basic... Lets say jacob had started this instead. We'd be talking about how the subtle differences in builds give way to advnantages/disadvantadges versus specific archetypes. Its not just "this is my pet deck" so im going to bring it. Knowing a deck is great. Being familiar with the cards that you have in your deck protectors is awesome [/sarcasm]. Unfortunately, being SUCCESSFUL means optimizing your deck given what you expect to see.

      ugh... Its more than just a blind decision... You wouldnt play DS colossus if everyone maindecked chain of vapor and 4 echoing truth would you? Its not just your "opinion" specific cards mean success against other specific cards... or at least the highest chance of success. Thats what im after. I want someone who's played with workshop-based decks for enough rounds to know specific matchups to post some detailed info on matchups, and subtle changes in how you play the deck or what you bring, that helps you win...

I hate this forum. I dont know why I ever bother posting. I should just keep my thoughts to myself.

We differ fundamentally here. I think all shop decks arent played the same, and do not require the same decisions/dont have the same answers/weaknesses. You obviously do. Keep your opinion. You're entitled to it.

-joel

Theres no problem with tinker. In fact, as soon as darksteel came out, I came on here clamoring that tinker DC was going to hit the meta hard, and I won a ton of games playing thirst draw engine in grow with dc tinker combo thrown in. Of course when i posted that on here... It got sent to newbie until someone else had another deck report for it.  Im saying that sorcery speed bombs and a creature that can be naturalized eot for 4 mana, seems like a huge swing in tempo at times.




In my "hand" I was showing you the 4ofs that i run in my oath deck (i also happen to run 3 black tutors, and 3 deeds, which would also help).

What 4ofs does your deck run? Su-chi, Transmutate (*5), thirst, brainstorm, and volcanic island...While I have already admitted that brainstorm is a house, I would like to point out the fact that it looks hard to spring out of the gates and "beatdown" quickly with this deck. Say you have a hand of, workshop, off color mox, and fetch (a decent starting mana-based hand). If you drop su-chi right away, and have brainstorm for next turn, by turn 3 you have the makings of a titan, or angel... but how is that faster than CA? how is it any less susceptable to force of will, removal, drain, etc...



Im just looking for reasons to play this deck over other decks. I am not personally attacking you for your success(congradulations); however, I dont feel that what you showed me looks consistent enough to become a mainstay.



Thats ludacris... I didnt say that. I simply didnt like the "match analysis" that basically reads... "AUTO WINS are the R0x0r..." Every deck has answers, what did your deck do that the others didnt? What cards did you see that made you worry, what did you have the answers to? What mis-plays did your opponents make that let you win (you already mentioned one), and what would you do differently?

This was the whole point I wanted this thread to be about... Why play workshop, with all the hate, what answers does it provide outside of the infamous turn 1 drop hand trini, go? I dont just want to see... my deck wins, I want to know exactly what you've been seeing, what your meta is... and why youre winning. Is your kill coming down turn 2 and wrapping the game up turn 4? Is it more like turn 3- turn 6? You telling me that you're from europe (along with morefling, who also posted on this deck) shows me that this deck hasnt been tested in a meta even close to my own.


Onward:




Heres the problem with what you're saying... You've given me a decklist, Ive come back saying heres the problem with your analysis, and you simply come back with ... well the general deck type isnt like that...

Are you saying oath-combo is better? Thats fine, but I dont think so. Takes 2 Different combos to pull of in that case, and a single StP ruins your day.

I will quote diceman:



I dont like colossus in there, but go for it... I happen to run akroma and spirit main along with crosis and then have DS Colossus in the side.

I personally dont run blue either, although i see many decks that do.

The whole point is that Im looking for an answer to the simple question:

Why play one shop-based deck over another, given a specific meta? Thank you for finally metioning that you are indeed european... where in europe? what meta is this florishing in?

But with transmutate looking good then:
you've already shown that UU is fine with a shop-based deck, so why not add drain?

I will send you a copy of a decklist bigmac along with some testing results... (I do mainly play with shop-based decks however, so it wont be as extensive as I would like for now). I do have 30-40 matches worth of comments to discuss with. (mainly that night's whisper sucks..   )




Um.. when did i bitch about that? I simply stated that I felt this topic warrants a much more in-depth and detailed discussion than it would at first seem. I mentioned that I playtest plenty, to keep those who would simply answer the questions in the first post from posting... I also mentioned that I would really like it if you could make a case for a specific deck given your meta... I just want more out of match results than something saying "autowin" and moving on. I want specifics... I want more than what I've seen.

It helps slightly but your match analysis sucks, as do your results.

First off, deathlong goes and bounces your plat, and even so, there arent many deathlong decks running around. TpS would be more common, and like you said, it would run this over.


Second, your "oath" match analysis sucks. I run 4 naturalize maindeck, as well as 1 coffin purge and 4 therapies. I would have no problem going turn 1 duress/therapy, turn 2 oath, giving you a token, turn 3 oath up akroma and therapy naming whatever, I could then attack and put you in topdeck mode with therapy #2 sacing spirit/akroma. UU isnt going to come before turn 2 on most occasions, and even if youre playing an ideal hand, I can just natrualize your artifact. Hell game 2 I board in 3 oxidize for 7 total art removal spells to your 3 eon hubs. And mine come back with blessing. Dont tell me that su-chi is going to win you the game should you drop it turn 1 either. I just nat it eot, and watch you eat the mana (at least 2 of it (you might have thirst and U open).

4cc Isnt the walk you seem to make it out to be. They have TONS of answers to your deck, and If properly prepared, games 2-3 suck for you. draining a transmutate > transmutate, force takes care of sphere, and unless youre casting thirst (which id normally be draining),  You have alot of "dead" cards against matchups like that, and Id definately be the one to throw more fecthes in to get those volcs and islands.


Brainstorm seems to be the glue holding this deck together, as without it it seems horrible, and very inconsistent. Your little blurb about people letting transmutate go and then letting titan rock their lands made me chuckle. People who dont know how an artifact-based deck works, shouldnt be playing type one...

I just dont see how you expect to keep artifacts on the table, or keep an active welder with the lack up supporting cards. I cant see this deck piloting consistently through a 70-80 person field to a t8 with any sort of consistency unless you happen to have alot of luck. Sorcery speed game breakers dont seem too scary.

Poker is a "game" as well. But if you dont know what you're doing when youre playing for a prize, you cant take it back. If someone shows 2 pair and you fold your 3 of a kind, you cant take it back.

Honestly, Magic is fun, but its also a competition. Fun should come from playing a competitive match against someone who is as versed in the rules as yourself, and who knows the ins and outs of both decks once the cards hit the table. A good players knows his outs, his winning positions, and surely what to put back when brainstorming. Taking plays back is not what I would think of as "good" tournament play. Competition is just that, competitive and enjoyable for that fact.

Some additional tips:

1. SLOW DOWN: youre not playing magic online, nor are you playing against your friends in your basement. Youre playing in a tournament. For a prize... and you want to win. So make the correct plays, and take your time before you play them.

2. Be nice... everyone says it, but dont just be nice... Be firm but nice. Have a spine, and dont get walked over. I once called a judge over to a pair playing next to me because some asshat bullied a younger player into thinking that null rod kept him from responding by activating artifacts. Stand up for what you know, and let the judge sort it out if your opponent doesnt know the rules.

3. Know your deck.

4. Playtest, and bring support. In the form of other players is kewl, gf is cool, just bring some kinda support, or people you like to chill with. It makes tourneys so much more fun to go with people you know.

5. Win ... Winning makes everything feel better - doesnt it?

Are you kidding me? Of course... you move it to newbie.. and I get a newbish first response to my thread...  I know how to play with workshop. I test more than most of you masturbate.


Good call. These are not NEWBIE questions... You've been over it many times before...  if mana drain fits with shop, if you can truly live without welder, yeah sure you can..  If youre in the right meta. I would like metagame decisions based off current shop-based decks, Not just those questions answered.

You tell me you have a truly consistent kill with a shop-based deck, and I'll introduce you to one of the two metas I play in... st louis.

Humility is crazy here, so is md seal of cleansing, as is doj, and force/standstill/mana drain. In fact most u/w control players run lotus petal sapphire and lotus to keep turn 1 drain online as often as possible. Add that to a fair share of fish decks, and wastelands everywhere (not to mention a couple maddness players), and its tough to find a shop-based kill that maintains consistency.

Turn around and head back to Minnesota/Wisconsin... The other place I happen to play, and youre welcomed home with twice as many wastelandsand plenty of shoppppin mirrors. Combo rears its ugly head, and bazaars are prominent in the form of both dragon and maddness. Grow decks with strange colors are sometimes brought in from regulars feeling like they found a new twist on dryad.

Im trying to explore a deck that would succeed in both of those metas... but i dont just want my question answered, I want a god-damned workshop discussion.  So dont suggest me to play a deck that isnt shop-based. Please save it for another thread.

Obviously thats not kosher, with all the "great discussion" about transmutate.dec, and oath, fish, eggs, that goes on in open on the first page.

I happen to test the absolute shit out of Mishra's Workshop, and I want to see input from others who do the same. Why doesnt that warrant some kind of decent t1 discussion???

I dont just want to read your decklist.



I want you to tell me the subtle effects of playing shop. Why did you play shop in mono-red. WHY was it successful? What didnt you have answers to?How can we make your deck successful in a meta full of combo? Analyze each build until were blue in the face, and move on, hopefully with the understanding that if we had to make a decision this weekend as to which deck to bring to a known meta, we'd bring the right deck, and the right sideboard, based off the theory behind the decks and the cards in the decks...

I want to find answers to any, and every deck that Im expecting to see. I want to know why Im boarding how Im boarding, or if I need to board at all. When is there enough removal out there that I would fear keeping a 2 mox/1 land 7-card and draw (going 2nd) hand? When you draw into tinker, who do you head for slaver/pentavus with, and who do you titan to death? When do you over-extend and get beatdown because of it? How can we avoid misplays, and how can we make better decisions in mulls and keeps with shops? Many of these questions are universal for most shop-based decks. Some arent. Which is where the whole "multiple deck discussion" thing comes into play.


I was trying to lead into those kind of questions/answers.We know what goes into most general shop decks.

If someone says I play shop-slaver with main deck P.mirror and Angel tinker combo and I dont run Force of will. I know whats in his deck and I think of how my deck beats it. Someone says they run mono black shops with duress, and therapies, trinis, with a jug su-chi base and trasmutates and tinkers for blue splash... I have an idea as well, even though I havent seen a decklist and havent heard of anyone playing that deck before.

Please give me posts that show that you're familiar with workshop, and that you would like to publicly pursue answers to trying problems with shops.

amen

I have been reading this site for a long time now, and of late I have been coming here to find some more in-depth discussion on workshop-based decks.

Needless to say, I think that of late, people have been showing up with decks saying "well it won a tournament, so it must be good". I know winning a tournament is great, but thats not enough for me... I need something that will be able to adapt slightly to ANY meta, or a deck using central cards, and changes to DOMINATE a certain type of meta.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Workshop is broken... It can make consistent broken plays happen. But I in no way think that means that it is necessary in most decks. There needs to be a kill after the "brokenness"... it cant just be ( (non-shop brokenness example that follows with anti-climaticism) Wow I resolved bargain turn 1, and I just drew 18 islands and ancestral... meh deck is ba-roken). I know that most shop-based decks aren't like this... Im being facetious, but still. I think that there are better shop options than what have been posted.


**Not every deck build with shops is the ideal deck for every environment. This might seem obvious to most, but I would like to clarify that Im not looking for an outright decklist to dominate everywhere. I actually really would like a meta-game discussion devoted to shop-based decks...

Currently and from experience I will preface with the fact:
 I think that wasteland-heavy metas seem to eat up shop decks and weed them out better than any other.


Here is where I would also make a list of broken things that shop does on turn 1:

But it would be way to long and you already know most of them...



What I would like from you guys, is a simple discussion.


Here is a link to the "active" thead (posts within the last week) not many on here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20883



EDIT!!
These are QUESTIONS TO KEEP IN MIND... and to constantly explore with shop. Dont just answer these

*What are the real reasons for playing shops?

*What color(s) are truly best? (is it really all about U/R?)

*Should you run the all-nonbasic route? Does blood moon pose a great threat anyways? What about B2B? Wastelands? Opponents crucible lock?

*Force of Will, does it fit? Does it suck to lose a thirst to force more that it sucks to have an opponents spell on the table most of the time?

*How about Mana Drain in a monoblue shop deck?

*Goblin welder is a must-include? If so why not try a mono red, and screw with other decks utilizing bloodmoon?

*Bazaar+Workshop = mana screw in the works? I know it draws cards, but is it consistent enough and can you deal with not doing anything turn 1 and instead drawing 2/discarding 3?

*What does Monobrown leave you open to? What CANT it do? Can it ever be consistent enough to weed through a large field


The next two are the questions that I am really trying to tackle at the moment:

*Consistent kill mechanisms?? does anyone have one thats truly consistent? What is the most consistent in a meta loaded with combo/control/aggro? What about a blind meta you havent ever seen? What about a 5, 10 proxy meta?


Ill throw in a good quote from Vintage:

Dicemanx said :



Raph Caron follows up with:



I dont see Workshop doing anything crazy on turn 1. Nothing that an opponent cannot recover from. 3 Mana doesnt win you the game, especially when your "kill" costs 6-8, and wasteland puts you back at Square 1. How is that any worse than an opponent who can go bazaar mox lotus dragon animate, and just win? Force of will is a sticky card...



*Draw mechanisms... what can you run with workshops that will draw you cards consistently? What can you do to best gain card advantage through workshop?? It goes the other way as well.. (see cursed rack).

*Lock mechanisms. Trini, Smokestack, Sphere, Portal, Slaver, Tanglewire. When do they/dont they work, and how can you work around drawing them late-game?


I know most of the basic answers to the above questions, but id like some other cards that seem like they could have synergy wth workshop... not just (however feel free to include them) "trinisphere, crucible, chalice, jug, titan, metalworker, mindslaver, pentavus, etc...



*Does white have any bombs that could work?
*Black? Green? Blue? Red?(dont just put welder, I want to see if you have really explored some options)...




With all the mentioning of cards like transmutate artifact and artificers intuition (both of which I find to be crappy decks, and inconsistent ones at that)... are people really stretching to test what "meshes" with shop alot???


If youre testing shop in everything from 4cc to mono-green:

Why dont we get to see more results of that?

I for one think that one of these decks should emerge as the only deck you should be playing in a control/combo/aggro meta, and therefore I would like help coming to that conclusion.

I happen to read this site on an almost daily basis... I test at least 3-4 times a week, sometimes for more than 3 hours at a time.

I feel that continuious testing helps me become aware of more than just the latest "net deck". It allows me to tune my decks to what I'm expecting to face, and know how to deal with the problems that my deck will encounter.

I also feel that testing is important because type one tournaments dont happen that often. Keeping up to date with your testing allows you to make well-informed game time decisions when it really matters.

A prime example of this:

Last week I saw someone who I had never met before bring a fully powered doomsday deck to a tournament, only to run himself out of a win two times because he did not have the "ideal" 5 card setup still in his deck.

There is no excuse for these types of errors in type one. Its type one for a reason. The people who play type one .. .are the ones who love magic for the game.

You'd be playing type 2 if you wanted the glory/prize money... but type one is all about respect... and respect comes from knowing what to side in, what your opponents kill is going to be 2 turns into the game, knowing exactly what to wish for, when to tap out, what to name, and what wins/loses everytime you draw a card.

Its just like watching the world series of poker. When Chris Ferguson has 7 outs left in the deck, and 2 cards coming... he knows exactly what the outs are and what ones he would like to see the most...

Its instinct, and that comes from playing with the cards...

The exact same is true in magic.


-Joel-

Im trying to figure out the best way to get to pasttimes in Niles from O'hare.. If someone from the area could drop me a pm.. and lmk that would be great. Im trying to figure out the train.. but the map is wayyyyy to hard to follow, and Mapquest says 9 miles, so i know i could take a cab, but is there a better way??

I wanted to post this on the end of the torney page... so if it could be added to that thread i would be  


joel

the green scry spell looks good, additionally i like the thought of letting white have some good search (steelshapers gift)... quite a nice addition esp with instant speed equipping.

im going to have to test out some WW soon

im there

Mystical tutor-> tinker was very good. Demonic tutor tinker was also savangely good. I drew tinker in my opening hand 3 times in 13 games actually. and i was drawing alot of cards (see ancestral recall, brainstorm, and thirst for knowledge).

Time walk also helps make this combo a 1 turn combo instead of 2 turn combo... so does berserk.

Its all good that no one likes the idea.

ill just keep playing with it...

EDIT



I mentioned that slaver had a better gameplan in my first post

EDIT2:
7-10 has come out as another great deck that can utilize this combo...


thirst is amazing with this guy ... even when drawing him in your hand ... with 3 thirsts or with brainstorms/fetches.. .he isnt hard to get rid of ... not to mention most of the decks this card fits in run jar/twister/wheel/windfall if they dont run a brainstorm/fetch base... or dont have 3-4 thirsts.


I have found he ends the game very fast against o. stompy , sui, sligh, fish (without bounce), and other aggressive decks that seem to have bombs that totally wreck artifact based decks.

I still think this one is fast enough, and competitive enough for type one... and i dont realize why no one else seems to be running it... or at least publicizing it.

Don't multiple-post. Posts merged. -Dr. Sylvan

Can you cast tog turn 1 with a crypt and island.. and have it be a 1 turn clock?

sometimes people dont post new ideas, because those on this board have entirely biased opinions, and dont welcome new ideas, even with testing

---

---

I recently Tested a slight tweak in a Grow build which included adding 2 cards to the deck:

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker

When you think of tinker, the first words that come to everyones mind is Memory jar... the second words are combo deck. While this might have been true a year ago, I feel that with the current obscession with artifact hate leaves Darksteel Colossus as an amazing 1 card combo.



Tinker
Color= Blue  Type= Sorcery  Cost= 2U UL(U)  
Text (UL+errata): As an additional cost to play ~this~, sacrifice an artifact. ; Search your library for an artifact card and put that card into play. Then shuffle your library. [Oracle 1999/05/01]

Darksteel Colossus 11/11
Color= Artifact   Type= Artifact Creature   Cost= 11 DS(R)
Trample
Darksteel Colossus is indestructible. ("Destroy" effects and lethal damage don't destroy it.) If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.



I have played this combo for the past 3 weeks on and off line. It won me 6 games never later than turn 4 yesterday in my grow build.

I think it has merits elsewhere in type one. (helps out against null rod and damping matrix in builds where those 2 cards hurt)

That is all. Im sure ill have more results favoring what im saying soon.

Until then... i guess you can just argue with it not being good because its new

I actually Cut vamp tutor at the last second in favor of another blue blast mostly because it sucked alot in testing... After that day im running Vamp in the side again.






Thanks for chiming in steve. Im taking a look at merchant scroll right now, and the only problem that i really see is the Sorcery word... Is merchant scroll too narrow to use to fetch a card that you need at the very instant (FOW) or a card that youd like to cast EOT (mystical)???

I really liked Thirst and i feared Chalice for 2... (which i didnt see) i think that thirst really helped, and while it did cost 1 mana more, I only had one occasion where i had to mull and 1 occasion where i drew it without being able to cast it turn 2-3.

I still really like the idea... and im looking into it. Im almost thinking of cutting mana drain after how horrible they were for me yesterday.

Friday night i went out and decided that 12 Miller lights and a 1/4 bottle of Gin sounded like a good time. Additionally 3 Hours of sleep and a horrible hangover headache is not the way you want to wake up, especially when you wake up to an angry Girl friend calling you and 3 Hours until a tournament starts, and you with nothing in your stomach.

I woke up got up near 11 o'clock... buttnaked except i was wearing my sox (obscure atmosphere refrence)... but thats sort of what happened. I woke up  (around 10) and called Chad to chit chat some magic and hear how cocky he was about his deck winning the tournament today. After about an hour of getting ready/ talking to him, I walked to Jimmy John's and ate 2 sandwiches at 11 am. Chad arrived at around 12 and we drove the whole 6 Minute drive through the ghetto of central st louis to the haven that is the LOOP.

Inset actual information here:

There was a total of 27 players in the tournament and from looking at decklist submissions i noticed:

3 Food Chain goblins
2 Maddness-based decks (one unpowered,no bazaars) (one really foily :shock: )
4 sui decks *(one bloody suicide  )
3 Tog/Gat/Gad decklists (jeff (layerties), andrew, and myself)
5 Keeper variants (some with strange kill mechanisms)
1 Ravanger Affinity (Marc)
1 Slaver (no drains/no shops, was basically meandeck sans shops)
1 U/b finkel ophidian (guy from rivals)
1 Mask deck (twister was only power, lots of tutoring (fabricate), and ran mass hysteria     )  (robert)
2 R/g Beats (keith)
1 Sligh deck

NO landstill (sorry shockwave ), no dragon, and almost no slaver... i was shocked


Theres 24 of the decks (if anyone picked up the decklist submission forms (i was on 3 hours of sleep or else i would have) I would love to see at least the top 8 posted.

From memory the top 8 was:

2 Gat/Tog (andrew and Jeff (layerties from tmd) respectively)
1 Suicide
1 ravanger affinity (marc)
1 keeper (chad (metabubbles from tmd))
1 Maddness (jeff)
1 slaver (meandeck sans shops)
1 Food Chain Goblins (Jackoff (I was told he played like an asshole))  (unpowered)


Back to the story:

I arrived to the 1 PM tournament almost an hour early. I was planning on giving out shops to Andy Vick to play Meandeck slaver; however, he never showed up and Marc from Rivals  the hottest (literally) place in st louis, decided he was going to borrow my Twister, pearl, and 2 shops to complete his ravanger deck. I loaned out a drain to Robert, who was playing Mask, and talked to jeff for a while about tech and how i had a great new mechanism to show people who played tog and grow, and keeper, AND EVERY DECK THAT RUNS at least 7 Artifacts (solomoxen/crypt).


My decklist:

4 Q Dryad
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker          (see my game notes, the best "~1" card combo in vintage).
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoths will
3 Thirst for knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Damping Matrix
1 Gush
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Misdirection
4 Force of will
2 Fire/ice
4 Mana Drain

5 Fetchlands
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island

4 Moxen
1 Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

60 Cards

Sideboard:

1 Thirst for knowledge
1 Artifact mutation
1 Rack and ruin
1 Naturalize
1 Oxidize
1 Smother
1 Stifle
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Pernicious deed
1 Damping Matrix
2 Blue elemental Blast
1 Red elemental blast
1 Fire/ice
1 Berserk


Pairings went up for the first round and i sat next to Jeff and Chad and across the table from Keith, who i had never met before. I opened with a mana crypt and delta, and he followed with a wooded foothills finding Taiga. I thirsted into a mox and dryad and pitched the mox. My next turn i played a dryad and pumped it one with a brainstorm. He played a 2/2 something or other and passed the turn. I draw/go. He draws and attacks... and I BLOCKED... and didnt have an instant in hand (mistake #1) (i could have sworn i had another brainstorm in hand and then i drew and realized i had set it on top of lib). After that i get beat down by a Wild Dog and some Kird Apes.

Game 2 I opened with island Sol ring and he opened with barbarian ring kird ape. Turn 2 i played tinker and went and got Darksteel colossus. 2 turns later... I tossed his salad for 11 and he scooped.

Game 3 he mulls to 5 and i keep a God hand with lotus and Underground sea ancestral and timewalk. I use the ancestral and demonic tutor that i get off the ancestral to Find tinker/Colossus turn 2. I then proceed to berserk and kill turn 3.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 I was paired with Micah who was playing bloody suicide

He goes first turn dark ritual duress null rod, and follows it up with a second turn hymn to tourach. I get a cunning wish and oxidize his null rod so that i can start tapping moxen and i fetch for a volcanic which is promptly wasted to prevent any crazy fire/ice topdecking and a shade and negator eat me up.

Game two he goes ritual hypnotic spectre. Turn 2 he gets another ritual for duress hymn, and a shade and hyppie finish me.

_Humiliating_

1-1 (2-3)

Round three i play tom edwards with food chain goblins. Game one he gets an early food chain. I counter recruiter, but not a lackey and he uses the lackey ability to get a piledriver on the table, then foodchains to play another one the same turn. I lose to 2 piledriver beatdown.

I side in my amazing smother, 1 blue blast, fire/ice, and a deed. Game 2 I keep a hand with lotus and crypt, but no lands. I have timewalk and 2 brainstorms in hand. Turn 1 i drop both artifacts and say go. I topdeck Ancestral Recall and after a recall and 2 brainstorms find both tinker and a tropical island. Colossus comes out and eats up all his goblins.

Game 3 I get a turn 1 dryad and drain a turn 2 food chain. I brainstorm and find fact or fiction, and keep demonic tutor and a fetchland. I go find yawgmoths will and win after a twist knocks his hand to 0 and his lackeys get fired.

2-1 (4-4)

Round 4 i play against jeff playing TOG

I HATE THIS MATCHUP... I cant stand it, but i think that if i play aggressively enough and slip one or 2 spells through i can win an early game, and then just play conservatively.

Game 1 i keep a good hand with twist yawgmoths will and lotus. Jeff plays first. He forces my 5 card twist turn 1, He follows that up with a duress to steal my ancestral (i figured id try to push the twist over the top right away). He forced something else that i cast as well.  End of his turn i thirst, and without thinking PITCHED DAMPING MATRIX to thirst!!!!!. NOT smart joel, especially after he already pitched all 3 of his cunning wishes to Force of will!  After a third force stops my yawgmoths will, Im pretty much feeling crappy about this game, and looking forward to game 2. Of course he adds insult to injury by having his one card in hand eot being skeletal scrying... +4 card advantage for jeff.
Game2 (in d matrix, red blast, smother)

I go tropical island sol ring. He duresses,and i force. I have tinker in hand and darksteel colossus turn 2. He goes the distance.

Game 3 I have to mull to 6 but keep a hand that has a turn 1 Colossus win (crypt tropical tinker thirst delta and something i didnt write down)

Jeff starts the game going fetch underground sea, duress. I was so stoked to have the combo... that move wrecked my hand. He takes tinker, and i know turn 2 that i dont have the game. He puts out an early tog, and pings for 1 for a while... however time gets called with me at 17. and with 5 more turns, he gets me to 15 and then with us both doing math, we note he has the win exactly.

That was a fun match... i really enjoy playing against jeff.

2-2 (5-6)

Round 4 I played against Robert who i loaned a drain to playing mask. Game 1 I get an early darksteel colossus, and counter his mask (he played mass hysteria turn 1 to make my colossus fast.

Game 2 I really dont know exactly what cards hes playing, and just opt to put in Rack and ruin, and artifact mutation, and oxidize for 2 fire/ice and 1 wish. He gets a turn 1 nought, and i get a turn 2 colossus. I dig hard for both oxidize and damping matrix. He plays a second nought, and i dig yet again and find rack and ruin, but have no red source. I attempt to matrix (he forces) It was good bait. I oxidize one nought and next turn fetch a volcanic to rack and ruin the mask and the other nought. It was a pretty nice comeback win.

3-2 (7-6)


Thats where my day ended. I had 9 points and 10 made the top 8. If jeff and i would have drawn, which i thought would have screwed us both, we would have made top 8 as 7 and 8 after our last round.  I guess i need to learn how to do tournament math.


The top 8 as mentioned before were:

2 Gat/Tog (andrew and Jeff (layerties from tmd) respectively) ( 4-1) and (3-0-2)
1 Suicide (3-1-1)
1 ravanger affinity (marc) 3-0-2
1 keeper (chad (metabubbles from tmd)) 3-0-2
1 Maddness (jeff) 4-1
1 slaver (meandeck sans shops) 3-1-1 (i think)
1 Food Chain Goblins (Jackoff)  (3-1-1) (i think)

I spent the top 8 watching matches, eating subway, and counting play mistakes.

Suicide vs Ravanger affinity:

Marc was playing very confidently... however he was just playing too fast and almost lost to a very bad suicide build. He ended up getting away with 3 playmistakes that should have cost him both games 2 and 3 and he narrowly escaped losing.

Keeper versus GAT:

Chad was perfect all day 6-0-4 games. He also swept GAT 2-0 and his deck was really clicking.

Maddness Vs Tog:

Jeff VS jeff. A very good set of games, with Tog making a crucial mistake of leaving jeff a blue source in game 3. Because of that, the other jeff drew 6 cards off 3 deep analysis(es).


Food Chain Goblins VS Slaver:

I heard that a play mistake cost slaver the game in a matchup where he should have definately had the upper hand.


TOP 4:

Keeper VS madness:

Chad's deck finally hits a roadblock and he is overrun in both games. Even with balance and 2stp, he cannot find enough to stop jeffs onslaught of creatures. He dies to a Pompus wurm game1 and to a fiery temper game 2.

Food Chain Goblins VS Ravanger Affinity:

I did not watch this match because i was in subway (this is what i was told happened) (lmk if im wrong):

Game One food chain has a great hand and goes off turn 2. Wins turn 3. Marc draws 4 ravangers durning the game.. .and sacs them all to try and get more cards to win... i dont really know what his plan was there... however i guess he was just desperate to get his deck to work right away.

Game Two Marc mulls to a sub-par hand of 5 and Loses again. He had way too many non-artifact cards boarded in and drew a workshop that he was not able to utilize. FCG had another great hand.



THE FINALS:

FCG vs Madness
Madness already beat this FCG build earlier that day, and i was looking forward to jeff taking home the mox sapphire...

Then they decided to split... BOOOOO!!!!!!

So after some swapping jeff took home an alpha sapphire and FCG boy took home an unlimited Sapphire and 4 Italian legends packs...




After the Tourney we went to rivals where the temperature was about 900000000 deg because the AC was broken and st louis is hot.

We played some dick around games until about 12-12:30 and relaxed and drank alot of beverages.


I really think that this combo will become THE combo to put into almost any deck that runs both blue and moxen.

Darksteel Colossus
Tinker

It won 6 games for me... all on/before turn 4. Pretty sweet stuff.




Props:

Darksteel Colossus

Tinker  (The Tink/Col combo is soooooooooooooooo good)[/b]

Thirst for Knowledge

Jeff (both of you)

Rivals (for fixing the ac quickly)

Marc (for giving me back my cards)

Chad (for giving me a ride (even though i had to learn how to use his "stick shift" ))


Poops:

Andy Vick... for being a pussy and not showing up

Me... for not seeing any artifact based decks when i had tested all week against them.

Bloody Suicide ... for sucking ass

Q. Dryad ... for only winning me one game.

Skeletal Scrying... for helping jeff beat me.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7063
Kevin Cron's (CHA1N5) article on playing with and around mana drain


Steve posted this and then got rid of it right away (luckily i was here to mise and read it). Excelent article and very timely, as i think that small details to playing (such as this) are sometimes overlooked in light of such a fast format.

Does Kevin Cron write alot for SCG? I would like to congradulate him on a very well written article. One of those articles that can help players turn inward to analyze their own playstyle and game-time decisions.



Impressed

I dont know if it was an oversight, but wouldnt timetwister fit in here great? synergy with trini, and 3 cc is sooo easy for you... id think that it would make it over Trike #4

Jacob thanks for your vast insight and quality posting...



 [/sarcasm]


 (because i know you must have missed it in my 1st post)

btw:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11001

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11735

the search function is sooooo good...  

Thanks a bunch for the heads up Jakedasnake, however the problems i was having with that deck were based around Swords to plowshares and Control decks. Diceman actually writes himself that his deck is geared towards a very aggro meta.

Having no draw engine and 4 oath of druids versus a control deck isnt always the best idea. Also running vineyard makes his deck weak against belcher combo (which im sure you dont see, however i do).

Additionally i dont feel that his creatures are as castable as he says they are (baloth is 4cc which is great, however everything else is a little bit on the high side (especially when youre on a clock like against slaver or another such deck)).

Even when he brings in null rod vs slaver or some such deck, his own deck becomes slower, and more suceptable to the frightening Mindslavered Eureka where the slaver player is able to cast 3-5 artifacts durning his opponents turn.

I have always loved sneak attack (especially with wurms (tokens are nice)), however its own cc is also higher than i would desire from a deck, and requires RR to play and use in the same turn, so essentiall the CC looks like 3 RR.


Joel (kakeboy07 from motl/tmd)


Edit:
@ Methuselahn:

After further analyzing your deck. Future sight seems great, but isnt it kinda conditional with 2 of them and only 4 real (feisable) ways (outside of drawing into lotus/tutoring for it) of getting your Colossuses/Future sight into play (without drains i dont think 11 is very castable). Also Tinker looks just too good to not be included in my deck. Additionally what do you side in chalices for and how much do you normally play them for??

Further: would you put in 4 drains for the cunning wishes and impulse? I would really want to fit drains in there. Could you cut a FS, Mana vault, and 2 Impulse?

Those are the 2 ways that i would think of going with it... however i have not goldfished or played your version... i am just speculating. I know that you have had some decent success with that list, so ill give you the benefit.

THanks for the ruling... apparently the judge that i asked that to didnt understand the ruling. hmmmmm That changes my creature base again.

I have been working quite hard to find a deck that could fit in Eureka in the current meta. My results have been varrying, however i need help, and therefore i felt the need to go to the masses.

I have read both versions of Show and tell . dec and enjoy them very much. In fact i play Show-and-tell/ Mask (another version that hasnt emerged yet) as well. However i felt that the deck was missing something. Control players were able to sit back and wait on a show and tell, and especially games 2-3 they had ReB waiting to counter show and tell everytime. This lead me to try and abuse the Non-blue version of Show and tell.  

Note: eureka is not for the weak of heart. It WILL burn you once in a while, if not more often than that. For this reason, im sure its not a tier 1 deck at the moment. But then again, thats why im posting it here. This needs work, and through work I feel that this deck might be able to be some sort of viable deck.

To start with: my current decklist

Show and Tell Day (std the green-mix)

2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical island
3 Forest
5 Island
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Misdirecton
1 Tinker

1 Regrowth

2 Eureka
4 Show and Tell

4 Darksteel Colossus
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Plated Slagwurm


60 cards


Sideboard:

3 Blue elemental Blast
3 Stifle
4 Naturalize
1 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Ground Seal
(note that if i included cunning wish 1 of these would be berserk)

Now lets discuss.

Creatures is the most interesting discussion in this case. The # of creatures needs to be debated, as well as, which creatures make the cut.

I went with:

4 Darksteel Colossus
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Plated Slagwurm


For the following reasons:

4 Colossus  11/11 trample is very fat, and not being able to be R&R is also a plus. He can be weldered out (and StoPed), but on the plus side stops laqutas from decking you.

2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath Comes in flying, haste 6/6 pro-black/red and doesnt seem to ever have problems making it a short game.

3 Plated Slagwurm Probably my most controversial decision. He doesnt get StoPed or weldered like colossus, and doesnt seem to have any problems in the power/toughness area. He has been hardcasted 3 times in playtesting. All following Drains for 3.


Some other creatures that have been mentioned in Skull/Other posts

1. Silvos, Rogue Elemental
2. Gigapede
3. Verdant Force
4. Symbiotic Wurm
5. Ravenous Baloth

Silvos, while regenerating, can be targeted, which makes it iffy, however in cases of mass removal that you can regerate from, or pinpoint removal that isnt RFG, he seems really good. I just see too many Swords to play him.

Gigapede: untargetable and very castable. Hes probably something i should look into. If nothing else, hed fit in the sideboard against alot of decks.

Verdant force: he doesnt seem to be better than colossus or slagwurm (mostly because he can die easily), but when he sticks around, those tokens add up FAST.

I really like Symbiotic Wurm. Mostly because Balance Leaves you with 7 1/1s and against most decks. Thats game. Keeper is a deck i would love to beat, and this creature seems like he would get the job done.

Ravenous Baloth seems like another great canidate. He's beefy without overdoing it, and he stalls  the game if needed. That +4 lifegain helps out alot in many situations. Id probably run some form of recursion if i was going to play him however (see genesis but regrowth would help too).


My Method For Playing Creatures:

1 Tinker
2 Eureka
4 Show and Tell

4 Show and tell makes this deck so much fun, as they can be pitched to fow on turn 1/0, and on turn 3 you can topdeck one for the win. Having 4 of these and not 4 eureka seems to be the right call, and with all the acceleration, its not uncommon to have a first turn Akroma or the like.

Tinker is also needed, however with only 6 artifacts i can sac to it, im going to have to test this more.  


The Green and blue spells i chose

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Misdirecton

1 Regrowth

My thought process went like this. I need some counters (drain/force). I need some draw and fetch based randomness (brainstorm). Mystical is in there because he either fetches ancestral or goes and gets me show and tell. If i resolve a show and tell, and want to go get something, he normally gets misdirection or regrowth.

I think fact or fiction could fit in here, as well as cunning wish possibly, however i would like suggestions on how to make that base work more efficiently. Sometimes i lack draw and have too much mana, other times im drawing counters (drains) and nothing to use them on.


Sideboard:

3 Blue elemental Blast
2 Stifle
2 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Naturalize (artifacts eat up eureka, especially slaver artifacts)
1 Misdirection
3 Ground Seal


My sideboard is normally crap, however i am really liking this one.

Blue blast is obvious, and hurts welders/dragons/ and blood moons

Stifle really helps against slaver/dragon/wastelands.

Misdirection helps against decks with removal and something to put into play (ie: mis-d chain of vapor).

Hurkyl's recall is because Artfiacts burn you soooooooo bad with eureka. This seemed to be the answer, as it basically says, you know all that stuff you just dropped, well play it again... slower.

Ground Seal helps me beat reanimator/dragon playing as reanimator because they have a different gameplan than I do, and sometimes try to play their game/ even post side, instead of just drawing their massive verdant force.




So what is this deck going to do???

Well currently im looking for HELP. This isnt a primer, and i definately dont know everything. I really am looking for people who have some knowledge in the background of Show and tell based decks, as well as people who are good with blue based control. This is supposed to be timmy does blue aggro control.dec and maybe its not decent at all; however i have been spending a decent amount of time working this rough decklist out, and playtesting a little. Im sure ill get back to everyone once i am able to play in a tourney or 2 with this deck.




Thanks for reading this far... look out for the primer in about 3 weeks if it all goes well... which im sure it wont      

[/sarcasm]



EDIT:

because i didnt think it got enough publicity i also searched out the other version that i really like of this deck.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16136&highlight=show+tell

Posted by Methuselahn


Show n' Tell Day. aka "STD"

Maindeck

4 Darksteel Colossus

4 Show and Tell
2 Future Sight
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoths Will

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Damping Matrix
1 Mind Twist
2 Cunning Wish

4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Underground Sea
5 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Sideboard

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Damping Matrix
3 Hurkyls Recall
1 Stifle
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Echoing Decay

MONO GREEN... its viable.. and its budget... look into it

you just might be surprised

just in the past year, i have purchased 3 playsets of crypt, all for under $12 ea (2 playsets of portugese, 1 english).

not only is crypt undervalued, its (as ric said) underused to a great extent

not only does it share an elusiveness like that of drains, its a promo card which makes it that much harder to find irl.

At tourneys i always see 1-2 people looking for crypts to play in combo, and they never seem to find them ... i have recently sold one for $75 pre-tourney, and its buyer didnt seem to mind that price one bit.