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Author Topic: [discussion] a one card combo to test  (Read 3804 times)
kakeboy07
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« on: April 19, 2004, 01:17:34 am »

I recently Tested a slight tweak in a Grow build which included adding 2 cards to the deck:

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker


When you think of tinker, the first words that come to everyones mind is Memory jar... the second words are combo deck. While this might have been true a year ago, I feel that with the current obscession with artifact hate leaves Darksteel Colossus as an amazing 1 card combo.



Tinker
Color= Blue  Type= Sorcery  Cost= 2U UL(U)  
Text (UL+errata): As an additional cost to play ~this~, sacrifice an artifact. ; Search your library for an artifact card and put that card into play. Then shuffle your library. [Oracle 1999/05/01]

Darksteel Colossus 11/11
Color= Artifact   Type= Artifact Creature   Cost= 11 DS(R)
Trample
Darksteel Colossus is indestructible. ("Destroy" effects and lethal damage don't destroy it.) If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.



I have played this combo for the past 3 weeks on and off line. It won me 6 games never later than turn 4 yesterday in my grow build.

I think it has merits elsewhere in type one. (helps out against null rod and damping matrix in builds where those 2 cards hurt)

That is all. Im sure ill have more results favoring what im saying soon.

Until then... i guess you can just argue with it not being good because its new
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For mass artifact removal, I recommended the old Atog, Donate, Mindslaver combo.
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2004, 01:31:37 am »

Did your entire tourney report focus on this as well? Its not that hawt. Why?

1) There are still some STPs around, its not like you CAN't deal with it.

2) If you draw it instead of tinker at a crucial time, you are screwed. He sucks in your hand.

3) If you draw tinker and no artifact it sucks.

4) If they counter your tinker it sucks.

5) as a 1 of, tinker is hard to get

6) Tinker is a pretty weak tutor target, and even when you tinker... why get an 11/11 instead of pentavous or slaver or jar? How many matchups does this matter?


etc. etc.

Sure you can throw it in some decks. But get real, don't start suggesting it gets thrown in every single deck in t1. That is insane.
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kakeboy07
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2004, 02:01:06 am »

---
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Quote from: The Atog Lord
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For mass artifact removal, I recommended the old Atog, Donate, Mindslaver combo.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2004, 02:08:36 am »

Part of playing a good deck is ensuring you have as few dead cards as possible, not that you have ways to pretend it isn't dead.

When you cast Tinker, you want to end the turn with either your opponent's board clear, a mindslaver activation taken care of, or your opponent's life total at zero.  You do not want a two turn clock.  This is type one, you can do better than that.
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2004, 02:17:03 am »

There is a "fine" line between not reading your post, and not agreeing with anything you said.
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kakeboy07
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2004, 02:26:35 am »

---
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Quote from: The Atog Lord
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For mass artifact removal, I recommended the old Atog, Donate, Mindslaver combo.
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2004, 02:35:08 am »

But you make a conscious decision to cast tinker. Tinker cost the same as tog (yaya, 1UB ~ 2U). Tog is a 1 turn clock that is artifact destruction proof. Colosi is a 2 turn clock that is not totally artifact destruction proof (welder for example).

If you can resolve tinker in GAT, why not resolve tog? 1 turn >> 2 turns.
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kakeboy07
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2004, 02:38:11 am »

Quote from: Smash
But you make a conscious decision to cast tinker. Tinker cost the same as tog (yaya, 1UB ~ 2U). Tog is a 1 turn clock that is artifact destruction proof. Colosi is a 2 turn clock that is not totally artifact destruction proof (welder for example).

If you can resolve tinker in GAT, why not resolve tog? 1 turn >> 2 turns.


Can you cast tog turn 1 with a crypt and island.. and have it be a 1 turn clock?

sometimes people dont post new ideas, because those on this board have entirely biased opinions, and dont welcome new ideas, even with testing
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2004, 02:43:28 am »

Can you cast Tinker with two islands and a swamp?

Seriously, there are better things to be doing with your slots than running two conditional cards.
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2004, 02:56:36 am »

Quote
I would really like to see
2 Tink/Col
in alot more decklists
or
at least tested... to see if it works.


Then test it yourself and tell me if it works, I shouldn't have to do your testing for you and nor should anyone else. It doesn't help your replies tend to be long with no actual content. Get some real testing results done and better arguements overall.

Um...Locked. Start it up in Newbie if you want a discussion.
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2004, 03:00:05 am »

Darksteel Colossus would be TERRIBLE in draw7 because all draw7 wants to do is to cast a draw 7 on turn 1.  The current tuning is to eliminate as much as possible the number of cards that don't help you do this- definitely no more Xantid Swarm main, 1 Hurkyl's at best, etc.  There's no way I'm mulliganing to 4 and drawing Darksteel Colossus.  Besides, even Tinker > Memory Jar and then passing the turn is usually game.  And they're a lot more likely to resolve Null Rod when you're drawing Darksteel Colossus instead of cards that help you combo out.
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2004, 10:44:03 am »

Quote
Then test it yourself and tell me if it works, I shouldn't have to do your testing for you and nor should anyone else. It doesn't help your replies tend to be long with no actual content. Get some real testing results done and better arguements overall.

Um...Locked. Start it up in Newbie if you want a discussion.


I think there is a good point in this thread - somewhere - you just have to read through a bunch of garbage to get there...

Tinker for DC is a good surprise play.  Many blue based decks can afford to add DC and manipulate around him - and in some matchups, this could be a great play.  No it isn't good in slaver, probably not useful in a few other traditionally good builds, but in a tier 2 deck (which means it could easily win a tourney, but not be favored) I think there is some validity to what Kake is saying here.
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2004, 11:26:56 am »

I think it has less to do with the combo being "bad" than it does with there just being better options available.  Tog would rather have Tog, Slaver would rather have Slaver, combo would rather have Jar, and so on since those cards win in 0-1 turn rather than 2 turns.
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kakeboy07
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2004, 11:58:13 am »

Quote from: Vegeta2711
Quote
I would really like to see
2 Tink/Col
in alot more decklists
or
at least tested... to see if it works.


Then test it yourself and tell me if it works, I shouldn't have to do your testing for you and nor should anyone else. It doesn't help your replies tend to be long with no actual content. Get some real testing results done and better arguements overall.

Um...Locked. Start it up in Newbie if you want a discussion.
[/color]



How about i played 13 games yesterday for an alpha sapphire... and won 6 of them by turn 4 with this guy. One of those games, my opponent played a turn 1 and turn 2 phyrexian dreadnought, in another he ran over tog. In another he stomped FCG. In testing he has smoked keeper. In all of these cases my opponents were good magic players, playing in a competitive tournament.
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For mass artifact removal, I recommended the old Atog, Donate, Mindslaver combo.
kirdape3
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2004, 01:30:06 pm »

So wait, we are to evaluate the validity of the concept by having you draw Tinker in half the games you played?  If you're tutoring for Tinker, then you're not accelerating your own game plan.  If you draw a 1-of in half of your games, you either are drawing enough cards so that anything would kill them (Draw7 or Tog) or you're savagely cheating.

It just seems like it's a really random way to die - by drawing a Colossus when you really need a business card, or Tinker where you lose by getting it countered.
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2004, 02:00:33 pm »

Ok, let's compare Darksteel Colossus to some of the more popular tinker targets of the day.

Platinum Angel is better than DSC:
Opponent has ample attackers and one blocker is inadequate to prevent taking lethal damage
Dragon has decked you and you have an active welder
When card is in hand and seven mana is availabe but not eleven
When card is in hand, active welder is in play and some form of discard is available

DSC is better than Platinum Angel:
Opponent has active pentavus
Opponent has ample non-STP removal spells and you have no counters.

Pentavus is better than DSC:
Opponent has ample attackers and one blocker is inadequate to prevent taking lethal damage
When card is in hand and seven mana is availabe but not eleven
When card is in hand, active welder is in play and some form of discard is available.
Attempting to set up a hard control slaver lock.
Opponent has Smokestack
Opponent has Tangle Wire

DSC is better than Pentavus:
Opponent has active pentavus
Opponent has ample non-STP removal spells and you have no counters.

Mindslaver is better than DSC:
Opponent has ample targeting card drawing spells such as Ancestral/Deep Analysis
Opponent has fetch lands
Opponent has Removal Spells or sacrificing effects (Smoke Stack, Sacrificing creatures)
Opponent has very slaver vulnerable cards (Dragon Combo, Psychatog, Necropotence, Hymn de Tourach, Bazaar of Baghdad)
Opponent has Land Destruction lands (Wasteland or Strip Mine)
When Mindslaver recursion if not infinite recursion is available
Opponent has active Goblin Welder
Opponent has powerful spells that you can waste (Yawgmoth's Will, Berzerk)
Too many smaller situations to name

DSC is better than Mindslaver:
Opponent has stifle
You do not have the four mana to activate the slaver
Opponent has very few resources for you to make use of or remove
Opponent has Juggernaut and neither you nor he has any answers to Juggernaut

Memory Jar is better than DSC:
When you have very few cards
When Many spells can be cast after the jar has been popped
When placing cards in your graveyard can have positive effects (active welder, Madness spells, Flashback Spells) and your opponent does not
The primary win condition of your deck is to cast a storm spell
When you can recur Memory Jar

DSC is better than Memory Jar:
When no spells are likely to be cast after popping the jar
When placing cards in your graveyard can have positive effects for your opponent (active welder, Madness spells, Flashback Spells) and you do not.
When your opponent has stifle
When your primary win condition is attacking with large creatures.

I honestly think that in all these cases DSC is the inferior of the bunch, TAL's control slaver build runs all the compared cards mentioned above and fits your conditions for playing the combo,

Quote
-If you have 5 moxen in your deck, a lotus and sol ring/crypt.

-When you have tutoring to search out the tinker, or alot of draw/discard.

-When you have thirst for knowledge to get rid of colossus, or brainstorm to put it at least 2 cards down. Or you have draw 7s to discard a colossus in hand (see ravanger affinity).


and the times where DSC would be a better tinker target than any of the four listed above is very slim and many people already complain that there are too many "dead cards" in this deck that can destroy you're opening hand without a thirst for knowledge and the draws are too inconsistent.
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kakeboy07
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2004, 02:05:07 pm »

Quote from: kirdape3
So wait, we are to evaluate the validity of the concept by having you draw Tinker in half the games you played?  If you're tutoring for Tinker, then you're not accelerating your own game plan.  If you draw a 1-of in half of your games, you either are drawing enough cards so that anything would kill them (Draw7 or Tog) or you're savagely cheating.

It just seems like it's a really random way to die - by drawing a Colossus when you really need a business card, or Tinker where you lose by getting it countered.



Mystical tutor-> tinker was very good. Demonic tutor tinker was also savangely good. I drew tinker in my opening hand 3 times in 13 games actually. and i was drawing alot of cards (see ancestral recall, brainstorm, and thirst for knowledge).

Time walk also helps make this combo a 1 turn combo instead of 2 turn combo... so does berserk.

Its all good that no one likes the idea.

ill just keep playing with it...

EDIT

Quote from: Meddling Mage


I honestly think that in all these cases DSC is the inferior of the bunch, TAL's control slaver build runs all the compared cards mentioned above and fits your conditions for playing the combo,

Quote
-If you have 5 moxen in your deck, a lotus and sol ring/crypt.

-When you have tutoring to search out the tinker, or alot of draw/discard.

-When you have thirst for knowledge to get rid of colossus, or brainstorm to put it at least 2 cards down. Or you have draw 7s to discard a colossus in hand (see ravanger affinity).


.


I mentioned that slaver had a better gameplan in my first post

EDIT2:
7-10 has come out as another great deck that can utilize this combo...


thirst is amazing with this guy ... even when drawing him in your hand ... with 3 thirsts or with brainstorms/fetches.. .he isnt hard to get rid of ... not to mention most of the decks this card fits in run jar/twister/wheel/windfall if they dont run a brainstorm/fetch base... or dont have 3-4 thirsts.


I have found he ends the game very fast against o. stompy , sui, sligh, fish (without bounce), and other aggressive decks that seem to have bombs that totally wreck artifact based decks.

I still think this one is fast enough, and competitive enough for type one... and i dont realize why no one else seems to be running it... or at least publicizing it.

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Quote from: The Atog Lord
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For mass artifact removal, I recommended the old Atog, Donate, Mindslaver combo.
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