Derp. I forgot to include the in-play part. Revision:

"Mauve Lotus
Counter Mauve Lotus if you control any cards named Mauve Lotus or Black Lotus or there are any cards named Mauve Lotus or Black Lotus in your graveyard. Opponent then searches your hand, library, and graveyard, and exiles all cards named Mauve Lotus and Black Lotus."


Theoretically, it would increase the probability of drawing a Lotus/Mox/whatever, but at the expense of your opponent knowing what's in your hand along with every card in your deck and potential card disadvantage if you had drawn any additional copies if it were unrestricted. I would happily allow my opponent to reshuffle if I could look through their deck and hand. Of course, this is assuming the game hasn't evolved (degenerated) to the point where knowledge of your opponent's strategy and resources is valuable. I haven't played competitively in about ten years, so I wouldn't know.

And I will admit the wording is terribly clunky. But I'm sure if WoTC were to do something like this, it would go through R&D and get refined before it were printed. I don't see how the Jester's Cap effect is related; I was under the assumption that we were trying to get around the Reserve List's reprint policy so that restricted power cards could be relatively affordable for new players.

I was thinking something like this as I was reading through the thread. I can see the potential for an evolution to a private tablet-like device for each player representing their hand and deck, etc., and a larger tablet-like device with publicly available information about the game state on it which is accessible by both players.

Alternatively, print a cycle of functionally identical power cards, but with an addition like this:

"Mauve Lotus
When you play this card, opponent searches your hand, library, and graveyard, and exiles all cards named Mauve Lotus and Black Lotus."

It's kind of like a reprint, but not. I might come out of retirement for that, especially the silliness that would result if they were legal in a format that only had lower-power cards.

Just to toss another $0.02 into the discussion, since I've had a little bit of experience with this kind of thing:

What expands the format is building a community at the local level, not by offering monster tournaments with retarded prize support where nobody plays. All that'll do is make the hardcore players travel a longer distance and the TO lose his shirt.

Building a community requires time and tenacity. You need to host cheap tournaments where there is very little at risk and what one might call a "Vintage clinic" on non-tournament days so people can experiment and/or test-drive the format. The TO needs to be prepared for setting up tournaments that nobody shows up to. Repeatedly. You also need to advertise everywhere and attend nearby non-Vintage events to get side games going with Vintage decks you brought. Eventually people will start showing up and getting involved.

That's when the monster tournaments with retarded prize support are useful; your player base will likely unify in an attempt to take down big tournaments.

This is all assuming your core players have some character, integrity, and basic social skills. I'm not sure many of the up-and-comers possess those traits though. I remember things starting to go down hill back in my day, and that was seven years ago. Wow, I'm old.

Wow. I am at a loss for words.

Truly tragic.

Try email, it worked for Ray.  

I'd like to make it, only problem is I'm poor. I mean REALLY poor. Living off student loans here; I only get like $14k/year for everything. Also depends on my workload.

I still have my cards though.

I'd need to get a crash course in the metagame and a link to the B&R list too. Am I correct in recalling that they restricted Thirst for Knowledge and Brainstorm?

Last time I saw Carl, he was behind the counter at Jupiter Games in Vestal. Maybe I can dig him up.

Who necros threads?

Anybody interested in purist (ie: no trading with strange people) Hardcore?

Currently commanding a small group (not yet legions) of the undead as *klown_TMD.

Personally, I could really go for some TMD in 3D. Like, the old-school kind where you have to wear the glasses.

I'm sick of huffing Redi-Whip just to make my internets look cool.

Ehhhh...

If you're going into virgin territory, you generally don't want to scalp the entries. Most people don't want to pay for just the "privelege of playing in a tournament", especially since anybody can set one up on their own without having to part with $4-$5 for what they would consider nothing.

I advise having 100% prize support at either $5 or $10 entry (usually $5 since these people don't play the formats as it stands, so it's not as much of a risk) and if the store owner requires something out of it, give store credit away as prizes. Also, distribute prizes to more than just first and second place - at least extend them down to third or fourth. This way, you won't get the inevitable "I'm just showing up to donate my money" sentiment from as many people. Granted, the prize support won't be much, but you'll be much more likely to build a player base.

If you scalp the entries though, I can almost guarantee that at least one person will ask what that 40-50% of their entry fee goes toward, and when you can't come up with a good reason (ie: a massuese to rub their feet while they play/strippers that happen to be DCI judges, etc.), you won't have anybody at your next event. People do not like contributing to your 40-50% profit margin for non-value-added "services".

Where are you doing this, anyway?

I was thinking about it, but I get totally pooned by the Brainstorm restriction and missing Timewalk. Mostly the Brainstorm restriction.

Of course, I could also just scrap the idea altogether and go with a Legacy build with red over black and no expensive cards besides the duals. But then I lose the really cool stuff.

I was planning on just putting my old Trinity Keeper together, since it's pretty terrible:


But without the Timewalk and some other tweaks like Future Sight over a Morphling, improving the mana base and sticking some Impulses in there. Oh, and then I get to run Hystrodon in the board for the aggro-control component, which is totally awesome. But I also may not be sideboarding, so that could be irrelevent.

I suppose the draw to pre-Exalted Angel Keeper lists is that they're primarily reactive; whomever my opponent might be, they get to play their cards and I have to find the answers. Of course, the Trinity build was designed to be much more proactive, so it might not be the best direction to go in. But putting Power Artifact on Grim Monolith is still pretty awesome. So is Fastbond/Zuran Orb/Crucible of Worlds, but that requires a post-Onslaught card (albeit one with decent artwork).

I dunno, I'm at a loss.

But those ToC lists are awesome. It's like Type 1 to the extent of "Land, Lotus, Mox, Mox ---> First-turn Craw Wurm" compared to what's being developed today. I think that should probably be my goal here: doing not really broken stuff with broken cards. The TurboSpaz list looks really tempting. Hmm...maybe something with Haunting Echoes...could be too sadistic though.

After getting the urge to sling the cardboard crack again, I followed some breadcrumbs that led me to a game store in my area that was recently opened by some of the original Binghamton Magic crew. Whilst hanging out and catching up with people, most notably one Carl Winter who happens to work there, I saw people coming in to play some pickup games and had to kick myself for not bringing my dust-caked backpack of doom.

I realized, though, that I didn't have anything built other than my 2005 Control Slaver that handily won me an Emerald the last time I played it in a tournament; probably not the best thing to bring to a casual table, especially considering the proxied power and now-illegal 4 Brainstorms.

So I've been thinking about some guidelines for building somewhat-casual, interactive decks that also let me use the cool stuff from way back that draw the "oohs" and "aaahs" when you bust them out (nothing with the new cardface, by default).

Immediately, the Winter 2002-2003 Vintage environment came to mind. The games back then were often slow as moleasses, Gro was just starting to develop, combo was basically Academy and Illusions/Donate (be it Rector-based or Mono-Blue) - storm didn't exist yet, Aggro was "good" (TNT, Tainted Mask, Oshawa Stompy, Madness) and well-built budget decks had a chance. Of course, most of these decks were also terrible by today's standards (fetchlands were being played with less than 4 Brainstorms, nobody had put Smokestack/Tanglewire/Sphere of Resistance together yet). I figure that's a good starting point, but there's the problem that unrestricted Gush, Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond (and I think Entomb as well - correct me if I'm wrong) were floating around at that point.

So in order to mitigate the potential unfunness/uninteractiveness, I think it would be wise to follow the current restricted list. In short, my deckbuilding guidelines are:

1) Decks may contain cards from Onslaught (heh, or maybe Legions) and earlier.
2) Use the current Banned & Restricted list.
3) No proxies for me, because they're not cool.

Am I missing any potential problems here? I'm mainly designing this psuedo-format for myself with the purpose of playing pickup games for fun, but in the event that something else comes of it...eh, I'd just like to be prepared.

Fortunately, I think I have all the goodies needed to build the Fever Mask v. Trinity Keeper (without Timewalk) matchup.

Opinions?

Edit: I'm kind of torn on whether Scourge would be safe.

On the one hand, Storm makes things less fun, but Brainstorm is restricted.
On the other hand, Scourge would give budget decks Stifle-Nought now, as well as Warchief for Goblins.

But all of these would probably make things more comboey on the whole.

Things to consider I suppose, but then again, I'll likely be the only one doing this so it's probably not even an issue.

PARFAIT RULES YOU ALL!!!1!

Hello no. It's totally legitimate.

My 14 kids' 37 daddies won't pay child support.

See, my beef here is that yes, baubles are amazing with Will, but Will should pretty much win regardless of whether you have baubles in the yard. Baubles seem to be win-more here.

Crypt and Chalice are excellent for getting you to a nasty Will. Which would you rather do - cast cantrips that don't affect the game state, or RFG your opponents graveyard? How about shutting out roughly 25% of your opponent's deck until they can find an answer?


I think Chalice is a little better than fairly one-sided; as long as it's not set at 2, you can draw 3 off every one of your cards that Chalice has shut out by countering them with Denial. Your opponent doesn't get that option.

I just keep coming back to the choice between running 4 Chalice/4 Crypt or 8 baubles in the maindeck. I dunno, it seems like baubles don't really do anything in comparison.

Gainfully unemployed.

I can see a fundamentally strong deck emerging from this use of Arcane Denial, but I think it would be best to ditch the baubles and "bad cards" and instead start with a skeleton of useful 0cc cards.

What immediately come to mind are:

Chalice of The Void
Tormod's Crypt
Engineered Explosives


Perhaps add more 0cc mana artifacts (probably only Petal):

Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Maybe Mox Diamond and/or Chrome Mox (but most likely not)

Definitely include Thirst for Knowledge just because of the synergy.

Use the Storm mechanic to win off a big Will.

Include Tinker and Colossus or Titan because you have 12 hard counters and some hardcore draw to make them stick until your opponent is dead. Titan might help cut them off mana to cast what you give them.

Have a ton of free sideboard slots for whatever, because half the cards you'd normally have in the sideboard are in your main deck.

So you get a combo/control deck with hosers, board control, a draw engine that might come close to making up for the loss of Brainstorm (and doesn't cost $500 - *cough* Strategic Planning *cough*) and additionally has four cards that read "I don't lose the game right now", which conveniently, can also be available on the first turn.

From what I've been reading on the current environment, the maindeck hosers would contribute to a favorable game one vs. a lot of the format. Ichorid seems like it would practically be an auto-win in particular.

Another possible 0cc consideration: The Future Sight Pacts - providing that the "you lose the game" condition only kicks in if the Pact resolves. Somebody set me straight here.


The whole reasoning behind this approach is that you get a draw engine, 4 more hard counters and cards that can wreck entire strategies long enough for you to sneak away with the win in a fairly tight package (it slices, it dices, it makes jullienne fries...). I'm trying to think up some undesireable scenarios with this hoser strategy:

Arcane Denial and no 0cc spell - You sit there with a cheap hard counter until you get a 0cc spell or your opponent tries to ruin your fun. If they do, you counter the transgression and probably win the counter war if there is one. You then live to see another turn (with an extra card to boot) and they get two freebies that may or may not help them (most likely not, since one of their few relevent cards was just absorbed by your counterwall).

Wrong hoser, no Denial - This plain sucks, but you can also pitch your unwanted hoser to Thirst or play it and Tinker it away. Not that bad of a deal.

Wrong hoser, no Denial/Thirst/Tinker - Learn to mulligan.

Right hoser, Denial in hand - Congratulations, you have a card that wrecks your opponent's strategy and a hard counter to force it down or protect it.

Let me know what I've missed here.

As an aside, I'd love to see an open-source deck become a contender; it's been a while. Especially if it's using cards that have been dismissed as complete garbage for years.

I think the badness of Arcane Denial is probably a leftover from when we played Morphlings as win conditions, before the concept of tempo existed and control could just win. Of course the card violates one of the fundamental rules by allowing your opponent more resources, but those two cards are irrelevent if your opponent doesn't see the next turn in which to draw them and/or whatever they draw is less of a threat than what you either countered or squeezed into play.

Isn't the draw from denial optional?



Sorry if I ruined the party.

Having a draw engine that doubles as emergency hard counters still seems fairly strong though.

Good to see you too, Steve.

I couldn't find Shockwave's blog, but I did read the TO solidarity thread, pretty interesting. Looks like I chimed in here too soon without having the info.
Seems the gist of it is that everything that really needed to be done (ie: universal proxy guidelines) already has been. Good stuff.

Edit: Just found Shockwave's post. Very good points made and it's also good to see that people are willing to entertain the idea should something go horribly wrong in the future, but I have to agree that it's likely unnecesarry at this point.

As a complete aside, after reading a LOT about the recent restrictions in that thread, and the lack of transparency from the DCI as the main beef, I'm surprised that nobody has applied (at least to my knowledge) a couple of older explanations:

Essentially, when a combo got too nasty, they would completely neuter the engine and not the combo peices themselves. With that in mind, it seems like they neutered the engines of a couple of "degenerate" decks at once by whacking Gush, Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm. Furthermore, Brainstorm was a format-defining card that was a 4-of in every good deck that could play it, which is also something that they don't like to see, especially being card-draw.

What I am very surprised by is the restriction of Flash, which is a combo component that does nothing by itself - along the same lines as Donate. That, and the inexplicable unrestriction of Gush in the first place; that one got a gigantic "WTF?" when I found out about it. Gifts made sense though, being strictly superior to FoF.

Edit 2: Durr...Flash is an accelerant and combo peice.

Back on topic though, regarding further expansion of the format, I would say Methuselahn hit the nail on the head:


Speaking from personal experience with my newfound scrubness, should I decide to get back into this habit, we scrubs don't like the feeling that we've been hosed.

What I fail to understand is why nobody has proposed just completely disregarding the DCI.

Essentially, you set up a unified governing body, ranking system and B&R list that are each independent of the DCI's and then run it based on actual problems and limitations of the format as opposed to the current way, which is not.

The community here has a far better understanding of the format, especially regarding the B&R list, than the DCI ever will. Not only that, but you also have the potential backing of SCG which, correct me if I'm wrong, now owns this site. I won't speculate as to whether SCG would want to expand to the extent of developing/sponsoring their own format, but the fact is it's virgin territory with at least modest demand and no competition and I hear businesses like that kind of thing.

Either way, it seems like the wherewithal exists to set something like this up, especially since it would likely only require some adaptations of the systems the DCI uses and some sort of screening process for new tournament upstarts. Hell, you could even go back to calling it Type 1, since what you have here is now officially called "Vintage" or "Eternal" or whatever.

After developing the ranking system and establishing a REAL B&R list, you just streamline the proxy system and set up a database of "TMD Sanctioned" tournaments and you're ready to rock. Maybe set up some sort of invitational system where those who have won an event get free entry into a larger one (although that's getting into possible monetary complications without some form of money-handling entity behind it).

The way I see it is that BD and TMD have done exponentially more for the format and community than the DCI ever will; there's nothing wrong with taking that next logical step.

But at the same time:

1) That all may be more effort than it's worth,
and
2) I may have no idea what I'm talking about.

Either way, figured I'd just toss that out there for you guys to mull over.

*urmomwang on USEast

**goes back to lurking**

You'll never be HALF the man your momma was.

If they're actually going to do somehing like that, then they should also go after music instructors who tab out music for their students, since they're making a buck off other musicians' work and the published material without any kind of permission.

They should also go after any musician or group of musicians who perform any copyrighted material without permission. THAT should be a jailable offense.

They should also require licenses to buy copying machines and copying supplies which, in the wrong hands, could be used for copyright infringement. Same with pencils, pens, typewriters, computers, styluses, quills, ink or any kind of pigment and pointy stick that could be used to reproduce any copyrighted information without explicit authorization.

Shit, they should just require everybody to get a license in order to give any kind of musical instruction, posess a musical instrument or even sing. Then they can tax and regulate these licensees and penalize everybody for reproducing any kind of copyrighted musical composition in any way, ESPECIALLY AUDITORILY, without first paying royalties.

Most importantly, these people should hire me to lead their crusade against these rip-off artists who would be so dastardly as to take from the potential profits of these sheet music publishing companies. I have their asses covered; I've thought of every technique that could be used to undermine their livelihood and RIGHTS to profits from their intellectual properties.

Dunno. But I think that would be HILARIOUS. And free publicity too. Personally, I welcome any *attempted* FBI arrests. The Man has nothing on me.

The sword was just for the Highlander tourney because it was appropriate. I think for a multiplayer, grand melee tourney, the more appropriate prize would be either a baseball bat with nails in it or a chainsaw.

Or most appropriately: A NUCLEAR BOMB!!

If anybody has any uranium 235 and some spare C-4 laying around, I'd be happy to construct one for an extra first-place prize. Oh, I'd also want like 20 bux for my troubles.

I'm tempted to come out of retirement and attempt to "live the dream" in the main event and the July '95 tourney really gives me a tingle in my groin, just like the last one did, even though I sucked out by going X-1-1. Those Land Tax on Land Tax matches take forever. I'm just concerned about somebody playing Necro/Fastbond/Drain Life/Soul Burn, although that deck shouldn't take less than a few turns to goldfish (probably like 3).

st00pid newb running 'phids...

I've been going through a bit of an identity crisis lately, so I figured a good way to help figure out where I'm going in life would be to examine where I've come from.

So I ran a search on myself on this here internet and found this little gem:

http://www.type-one.net/node/3

I'll tell you what, it was a breath of fresh air mixed with a stiff breeze of nostalgia to find these old tournament reports that range all the way from May of '96 to March of '03. As an aside, I got a kick out of reading a few of my own first reports playing Parfait on there (I'm FAMOUS!!).

After reading some of them, in order from '96 to '03, you can really see how the game and mentaility behind it have changed over the past few years.

One of my favorites is Josh Alvarez's Worlds 2001 report where he took Pox into a field of 4 FoF Mono-Blue and lived the dream of smashing the best deck in the format with...well...Pox.

There are also a bunch of reports from prominent TMD members butting heads with eachother at the first TMDC in Syracuse. Those are pure gold. It's about the closest you're going to get to a real-life ToC.

I figured it might be educational to all of the youngbloods on here to read, since you can't truly appreciate the game and community without having an idea of where and how it started out.

That, and they're just some fun reads.

Enjoy!

I agree. I thoroughly enjoy listening to Alice In Chains when I'm deadlifting DDR players.

I'll second the GTA trilogy. And don't just cheap out and get San Andreas because you think it's the upgrade of the previous two; they're all different games. I still own all three and go on rampages in different ones depending on my mood. GTA3 was the reason why I purchased my PS2.

For some other non-GTA games that are super sweet:

The Suffering 1&2
It's kind of like a cross between Resident Evil and Devil May Cry, but like a gazillion times better. The plot isn't dumb and there's no trace of any kind of anime roots (unlike DMC). Plus the gameplay is really fast-paced (unlike Resident Evil). That's because it was made by people like me. Make sure to play it alone with the volume up and the lights off. And wear some Depends. I tried both DMC and Resident Evil before I found The Suffering. When I played Resident Evil I was all like "man...I wish the freaking gameplay wasn't so slow and tedious and I didn't have to keep running back and forth; the story and setting are pretty cool, but the game itself is friggin' torture". Then when I played DMC, I was all like "man...I wish they had made Resident Evil like this; I can't stand the friggin' storyline and setting, even IF the game plays like an oiled-up hooker". The Suffering is the happy medium; pretty much the best of both worlds. AND you get to kill everyone in the game if you so choose. With shotguns.

Fight Night
Granted, sports are better played with live humans, but this game is the one exception. I absolutely HATE sports games to death, but I love Fight Night.

Way of The Samurai
I don't really know why this game is good, but I found it very addictive when I played it. Plus, you get to jump-kick townspeople in the chin.

Rune: Viking Warlord
Yeah...the story mode of the game gets kind of frustrating, but that's not why I have it. The one-on-one mode is sweet. Not because it has amazing graphics or groundbreaking gameplay, but because you're vikings. With axes. And it sells for like ten bux these days.

And I also must recommend Red Faction 2 for the obligatory multiplayer FPS. If you want to get some friends together and have a good time with some of the sickest muppet-mowing gats to come along in a while, then this game is for you.


For the record, every game I've suggested with the exception of San Andreas and The Suffering 2 are like 4 years old and under $20. Because I'm a cheapass who doesn't keep up on new developments.

Uh...that's not the kind of "sick fun" I'm talking about. Seems more like closet-cases experimenting.

There's nothing sexual about teabagging, unlike dry-humping someone.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. Actually, I am. This saddens me. Not that I have any resentment towards Steve for selling the joint or anything; sometimes you have to move on to the next stage in your life and I commend him for doing that.

It's just kind of wierd, I guess. This community and game had been my refuge for the past four years or so ever since I had some bad stuff go down in my life. It felt "right" in a sense; it was just a grass-roots thing with a bunch of cool people, untainted by corporate ownership and trends and fads. I mean, where else could ex-geeks go to indulge in their former geekdom away from the prying eyes of the real world?

Of course, I could just be insane and have an unrealistic idea of what BD and TMD had been.

Shoot mang, maybe I'm just growing up.

Maybe I just got burnt out and things haven't changed at all.

Or maybe I'm right and all of this is just "pwn j00 n00b" and people who dig anime and strive to be the next metrosexual prom queen. Maybe I'm right and everyone really thinks the best way to get some cred around here is to bash the "n00bs" and fellate the cool kids. Maybe I'm right about everyone wanting to get in good with the popular teams in the first place. Wow. Real teams suck. I remember when the "teams" were just a bunch of people who were from the same area and tested together because they had nothing and nobody else. And the whole thing was just lighthearted fun anyway, like some overexagerrated WWF mockery. Whatever happened to the pre-tourney strip joints? The cigars? Teabagging members of your crew in a hotel room the night before a tourney, but then trying to bust the joint up the next day like nobody had anybody's sack on their forehead? What happened to the days when that would have been considered FUNNY? Where's the UNITY, people? Where's the FUN?

Where is the love?

Our founding father has left the building, everyone. You all keep saying garbage like "he's been an asset to the community". That's an understatement. I'll be the first one to say that without him carrying the torch this far, we'd still be hiding in caves all scared of the sun and shit. All of you youngbloods need to recognize that you owe a little bit more to the man than just calling him an asset.

But it's been on the horizon for some time now. The Type One community has been heading south for some time now. It's no longer Canada, New England, New York and New Jersey and hasn't been for a while. And it's not what it used to be. Now it's official.

Y'know those aren't Ben Affleck's real abs.


I haven't been one to read comic books or graphic novels aside from The Crow back when I was 16-ish, but I was a big fan of the first and second Batman movies (the Tim Burton ones). I found myself questioning my fannitude when they got rid of Michael Keaton and replaced the dirty, sinister look of Gotham City with neon lights. Then they went and turned decent actors (Tommy Lee Jones) into jackasses. Yes, I thought the "Batman Forever" was crap, although I forced myself to sit through it in denial that they had ruined one of my favorite franchises. Then a couple of years later, I sat down to watch "Batman and Robin" hoping that they might have seen the error of their ways. Wrong. WRONG! I only made it through the credits and the first 180 seconds of it. Seeing Batman randomly pull out a snowboard whilst skydiving from an airplane to do battle with Mr. Freeze (ugh!) was too much. I couldn't take it anymore. It was so stupid and terrible that it gave me goosebumps; I had to pound the eject button on my VCR repeatedly. For the record, this is the ONLY movie that I've ever turned off without finishing in my life. To this day, I still haven't watched any more of it. When I see it on the TV at someone's house, I leave the room. "Batman and Robin" makes me think of this, and I wish it would cease to exist.

With that in mind, I think that "Batman Begins" is probably THE BEST comic-book-movie. But wait...I've never even read a Batman comic book, so how can I say that? Well, it was an amazing movie, independent of whatever comic book it's based on. Think about it. If you knew nothing about the Batman comic books, would it make sense to you anyway? Would it be believeable or silly and goofy? Would you be disappointed about having spent your five bux to see it?

Now I saw "Sin City" and it was solid, but I'm guessing it would have been better if I had some knowledge of the subject beforehand. This wasn't the case with "Batman Begins". Plus this one had really good actors in it, not to say that Jack Nicholson and Michael Keaton aren't good actors, but c'mon...how can you NOT love the dude from "American Psycho"? How can he NOT be the perfect Batman?

And for those of you who say that it was boring, I'm pooty sho the next one is going to be all action. I think they were just using this one to avoid plot holes instead of making the same mistake that the first one did: "Wait...how did Batman's parents die? Eh...we'll just say the Joker killed them; ten minutes ought to be good enough to explain Batman's history."