Hey again.

The list you just posted is certainly an improvement!

There are two things Id like to hear your oppinion on.

1)Why DSC? In CS without large creatures, its ok. but in your case, im thinking Platz, Sundering titan (the card thats won me the largest number of matches in my slaver career), memory jar, crypt, ect.

2)Two slaver. The way Id suggest you see Slaver is as an universal out. A card that when activated always does guarantee that you get a turn to prevent losing, do funny stuff to your opponent or typically, destroy him completely. However, its mana hungry. I generally think, it should be your reserve card, something you have in case of. And its legendary too.

Have fun!
 

Hey

You are new to Slaver, so therefore I'll give you some stuff to consider in your testing, as it in general is applied testing that makes you master the deck and understanding and really appreciating the art of deckdesigning.

First off, I dont think Dreadnaught belongs in a slaver deck. Slaver is Control Slaver, meaning you must enter a present controllish state of mind, not forcing through a little 12/12, while leaving the opponent free to destroy you. Have cards that immidiately impacts the game like sundering, mindslaver, crypt, trike. My reason is based on a lot of premises but the most significant is that A)You dont play duress, so you might waste your counters, throw away two cards for 1 dreadnaught that does nothing but add pressure, B) and in the meantime throwing away counters, passing the turn, and leaving the opponent a whole turn (actually two) trying to cope or go off.

Secondly. Thirst is the premiere engine of Slaver. I dont think I have to explain this part so  Id say play 4x thirst.

Thirdly. You play a very heavy draw engine but also the most solid there is. But you cant support it with just 12 lands! I mean, thats like the same amount Grim or Flash played. You want to have at least 2-3 lands in your opening hand. Secondly and with this point in mind, your weak manabase cant even support your drawengine, meaning digging for lands is sincerly difficult. Furthermore, your accelerant quanity is the lowest ive seen in slaver for a very long while. You are completely hosed by Chalice. You cant play Tinker under chalice, unless you sac a dread, which leads to -->tinker, dread, stifle 3 cards for tinkering in platz or something.

Finally, I think you are trying to accomplish two goals in one try. Ive always appreciated this. But using slaver shell for a fish deck is contradictory I think. Slaver is a deck I truly love and all innovation in this shell is deeply appreciated, so take this post as a sharing of information to use for enhancing your own critical thinking. Most importantly, Id say run 25-26 mana sources.  Thats a suggestion for a starting point.

Peace and Good luck,
Kelme

 

Hey. Ive already given you a short kudos for your report in the richmond thread, but in here I'd like to elaborate.

The report is not "just" fantastic. Its like you say: Impressionistic. Special. Unique. We europeans really like that kind of thing, thats for sure. I guess one of the reasons I really like it, is that the author, i.e you, is so clearly burning behind the words.

Congratulations,

@Forests_failed_you:

Daunting. I like it:D

Seriously, I think your list is one of the best gush-bond lists out there at the moment. Are there anything you'd change after this tournament?

@ Smemmen. I like the 3x Islands in the sideboard. I suppose that the 8 duress-effects was a meta call, and therefore not something you'd run in all instances?

@Forests_failed_you. Awesome report and decklist. I did move 1xduress to sb for 1x misdirection since i wanted more pitch counters and the occasionaly stealing of a recall.

Interessting article,

Only one change i have thought of is bazaar of baghad to sort out hate cards..whats your take on that?

"Thoughtseize may be better given the ability to snatch their welders (which is usually an irrelevant maneuver, but when your gameplan is welders of your own...) but I digress."

"There are certainly still arguments for Fire/Ice as hitman is defending.  However, unless your environment is heavily polluted with Stax or Fish, I wouldn't consider them over a dedicated draw slot like Night's Whisper."

There are some points I would like hightlight regarding these points. First of all hitting welders seems really strong to me. Often I find that having more welders than the opponet are of essence when wanting to defeat stax. Thoughtseize may also be considering following the logic from my next line.

I dont see fire/ice being relevant anymore. I do not see a lot of traditional fish anymore. I see lots of big green creatures backed up by an large numbers of disruption. I know, from solid experience, that fire/ice is one of the most versatile answers there is, but some solution must be found to solve large green creatures.

As for the robots, what do you guys play? Is sundering titan still viable the amount of gush decks that roam about?

When I decide for which robots I generally goes for cards that affect the game immidiately either from forcing interaction or a dramatic change in gameplay from my opponent OR putting me in a better position than before

My package has been this for awhile: Triskelion, Memory Jar, Tormods Crypt, Sundering titan and mindslaver. Now that i think about it Ive come to the following conclusion.

--Triskelion is barely playable. Sure, he kills occasionally and provides some clock. But he is ultimately replaced by Duplicant.

--Sundering titan: theres a lot of non-basic island cards running about, however considering gush, he might not make the cut. He might be replaced with the angel.

--Tormods crypt. I am not quite sure. Any ideas?

--Mindslaver. No reason to discuss. Mindslaver is the evil card.

--Memory jar. Memory jar makes welder so crazy, it also gives you ways to dump lots of mana and gets you out of very difficult situations. Will most likely never be replaced.

"I would also seriously consider some mox monkeys."

Why is that? It is my general experience that moxen are more rarely played than before. But mox monkey is a personal favorite of mine, so I am just looking for a solid rationale.

So, according to you Kowal, in the stax mirror you think merchant scroll is bad..but if I follow your argumentation, only provided that a sphere is in play and barring the open exposure to wastelands. What if you were on the play? Wouldnt you prefer to know you had the force for any welder or hefty lockpiece.
Also for sideboarding against stax I play 3x hurkyls and 2x rack and ruin, and merchant scroll does get you hurkyls recall. In general I think the longer you prevent turn 1 spheres the better off you are.

There are three main areas that I agree with you on:

For a draw engine under a sphere Nights whisper is the better choice.
4x duress/thoughtseizes must be included if you are to have a chance against any non stax deck.
The number of welders and maybe also 2 welders in the sb. 

I look forward to seing your answers...

Good Vibes
Kelme


   

" Scroll for Recall and cast it is minus 2 cards, plus 3, netting one"

Its actually only minus one considering that you dont get card disadvantage since the recall is not technically in your hand. So scroill=recall, play recall, draw three is +2 card advantage.

Merchant scroll is really good in slaver. If you have welder and robot in hand out it nets you gifts ungiven or tfk to throw it in the graveyard.

You alsoplay full acceleration as opposed to the new trend of playing like 3 or 4 moxen + lotus meaning you are likely to play turn 1 scroll for force which i think is the essential play with good old slaver. Turn 1 merchant into drain is also a good play if you deem it possible to survive enemys turn 1.

Kowal argues very convincingly that you can get the turn 1 mox and land card back if you use nights whisper.

The thing, or paradox, is that both cards are good utility cards. However Merchant Scroll seems stronger if you need turn 1 fow or drain, whereas are those cards in hand, nights whisper seems better. I think that one of the reasons why kowals slaver build makes a lot of sense in my opionion is because of duress. Duress makes you exchange, in whatever context it might be, the best card in their hand for one of your cards.

I see little room for merchant scroll in kowals build.

So lets start a slaver debate focusing on these points

Merchant scroll/nights whisper?

Duress?

Number of welders?

Good vibes
Kelme 

So far I have really enjoyed this list

I have a question:

Why is there no tolarian academy? Especially with robots and future sight, tolarian academy may be something to consider?

. 

Or maybe a memory jar? I have tested both but memory jar is both hardcastable and still functional the turn it enters the game which is harder with mindslaver. Both are practically GGs when they enter the game however.

EDIT: Fixed Quote tags. -Z

read an interesting article on intelligence some time ago, which said that chess players basically have "chunks" of knowledge, and what seperates a master from some random scrub is how big those "chunks" are. So a game board might be, say, two or three "chunks" of information, rather than 32 "chunks" for a more amateur player.


Yes, in psychology this is considered a generally true assesment. People can maintain in their short-term memory, i.e consciousness of the moment, 7+/-2 items, each of those consisting of pieces of information which when we grow experienced can contain even bigger informationload. So a combo master might contain 9 items consisting of large informationpieces.

If one can get addicted to tournament reports then you can count me as addicted to yours. Faboulous read, insightfull and humerous.

Thank you.
Kelme

Yes, i like the card drawing engine alot. You run as many card drawers as the average control/combo deck. Also the argument you just gave was understandable. Also, this deck doesnt seem to have mana problems, however finding fow or chalice does seem necessary, but I trust your opinion here.

"This deck heavily relies on drawing multiple cards a turn from Card Drawing men that come down early. Playing a turn 1 Brainstorm is not what the deck aims to do. Turn 1 I typically want to play a man or disruption card not a brainstorm. Think of it in this way, why does UR stax (with fetchlands) not play brainstorm? Beyond having trouble supporting its casting cost, stax has to do something proactive and play a threat on turn 1 whether it is welder or a prison component, otherwise the hand is probably a bad hand. Also brainstorm is just another card that gets hit by chalice for 1. Those principles apply here. This is a tempo deck and brainstorm doesn't actually immediately affect your opponent. As for 1 brainstorm, not 0, 2, 3, or 4 it's basically what I can fit. I'd definitely consider cutting it for a 4th Remand or other threat/disruption piece."

This was very educatitional. Thanks, I will keep that in mind when testing it.

@Kobefan.

Now, this assumption is purely theoretical since I havent tested this build yet. I will soon though. My question is why only one Brainstorm? With all those fetches it would enable you to find pratically lots of useful cards?

I dont really know about hurkyls recall.. It makes gifts misdirections very dangerous to you.

Besides and in the line with the other point I made about cotv with 2 counters it adds two more cards.

I think that the answer might as well be..Goblin welder? he solves the problem of dsc nicely and fits in with the many possible plays of your deck..

Hey.

One of my concerns with this deck is that you yourself get a lot more hurt by playing chalice of the void with two counters as opposed to ordinary stax.

I just want to drop by and say that this is to date one of the best reports Ive ever read.
Thank you.

I think that the two null rods should definitely be maindecked instead of the two stifles.

My reasoning is that the stifles neither contributes to the game plan and that since you play chalice of the void against fish (or combo) you would like that play them for 1 since it stops swords to plowshares.

Tinker and DC stay in my sideboard anyway, so I can always use that.

By all means run them in the sb. Its a good sb plan.

I didnt know Oath always loses to tendrils based decks. I read in a different oath thread that Grim long decks have little chance against Oath.

If you run 3x duress +4x chalice +5 strips+2 null rods it does seem like a strong disruption package. However the window for breaking free is simply a rebuild. Grim long is very versatile.

There is this new blue carddrawer that says 1u draw two cards then sacrifice a permanent; meaning +5 (-2 CA) cards for 1uu

a tidespout tyrant with 2 moxen, a lotus or sol ring means infinite mana and/ or infinite spells.Wish for a brainfreeze or sog and you win.

Yeah, this combo has been thought of and is rarely good. Its too dependent on other cards to be good. You can do cool things with tyrant, but Id rather just win with the angels.

Oh and it means you can't run library either.

This is, I feel, not a great loss. And just because you play back to basics, you need not disallow your self playing a library.

I definitely agree with all your points about stilfe. Of course.

5x Waste/strip, and 4x stifle, and 2-3x Null rod or Powederkeg are your stating points.

At this point we differ but its more a question of strategy than understanding. I like decks with tempo that also maintains a lot of control. I think mana denial is fine strategy on its own, maybe one of the strongest in the game; however playing null rod in fully powered and rather slow decks seems like.. wrong to me. Yes, and I do realise that many decks ICBM oath and UBA stax play(ed) it.

I think its very good that you point out that B2B effectiveness must be regarded in the light of the other player. You are definitely right here. However, its not difficult to win counterwars with this deck; when you do, providing that you may stifle a fetch and they play a dual, dropping a b2b will make them play much more tight and puts pressure on their decisions, its not rare to be putting your opponent into this situation. Oh, an by the way; 5cc stax becomes a bye should you resolve this card.

But you got me thinking, you really did, and I think that I will make room for a stifle or two extra.

Powder keg, is a bit utraditionally, placed in the sb in my version, the reason for this is.. i think its a card that works fine against fish, ss, stax, and oath but it is my experience that if you draw enough cards, it is really irrelevant. Against the aforementioned decks i think id rather prefer another bounce. Vintage is all about tempo and card drawing, and sitting around with kegs without impacting the game directly doesnt suit my playing style.

Hey all

Cunning wish is irrelevant in mono blue as blue simply hasnt got the answers in the sb; you have hurkyls recall and truth, fire/ice. When you resolve a scepter its pretty irrelevant what is imprinted. If it is to be included it must win or impact the game upon resolution otherwise it isnt to be included.

"Stifles and Wastelands should be enough to punish non-basics. "

Stifles are for the fetches that gets basics, wasteland and b2b takes care of the rest. One of the reasons why I always play 2x back to basics is, as I think I already elaborated on, is that mono blue lacks bombs.

This is the deck that I put together yesterday. Sorry Blue_Nightmare this one is powered, just so the others can see what i am thinking

Lands
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
6x island
5x fetches
1x tropical island

Counter
4x mana leak
4x mana drain
4x force of will

Win
1x darksteel collosus
4x ophidian

Fishy tricks
2x stifle

Bombs
2x back to basics
1x time walk
1x ancestral recall

Tutors
1x mystical tutor

Acceleration
1x mana crypt
5x moxen
1x black lotus


Draw engine
4x accumulated knowledge
3x intuition
3x deep analysis

Bounce
1x echoing truth

Sideboard; a bit random
4x oath of druids
1x tropical island
1x akroma
1x razia
2x rebuild
1x echoing truth
2x misdirection
1x blue elemental blast

The oath inclusion in the sb is for aggro which monoblue traditionally fare badly against.

I decided to play it all night on mws; with very few losses. (Actually i either won 2-1 or 2-0 the entire night) Now I do realize that skill level on mws differ significantly, so just to say that im not inducting that this is the perfect deck or anything. Anybody who wishes to test, drop me a line.

Lets look at the pros and cons

Pros
The deck is more explosive that ordinary mono blue.
It has more tutoring.
It has great disruption package; stifle, back to basics, leak, fow, mana drain.
It seemed good in the aggro matches i played because of the oath sb plan.
It has a fine and varied draw engine; which should, ideally improve the control slaver matchup

Cons
It doesnt run brainstorm or thirst which improves the possiblility of drawing dsc and not having any discard outlets.
It doesnt run chalice. This is inspired by Kowal who said that chalice shouldnt be played in monoblue.
 
That`d be all.

Implacable


What do the Power 9 have to do with it?  If he has Drains, then both 'Phid and Analysis are good to Drain into.

Naturally; i do not disagree with this statement. However i think that without moxen reaching 4cc is going to be quite hard, that is unless he wins a drain war.. this i do also realise is the potential of mono blue defending its threats perfectly.

Maybe I didnt disagree that much with your statement; i have supported ophidians in this post, and been agreeing with not running thirst. Actually i think ill make a new build with aks and deeps..

Kelme

Insert Quote
Thirst really is trashy in any deck but Slaver (sorry, Brassman).  In a deck that can't take advantage of the graveyard, you either pay 3 mana for +1 card advantage or 3 mana for +2 card advantage and loss of valuable mana (whose buildup is the whole point of a control deck in the first place).  Say what you will, but it might be interesting to try out a mix of Ophidian+Deep Analysis.  Ophidian is good for reasons already discussed, and Deep Analysis is definitely one of the best card-draw spells in the format, and can be used easily with Mana Drain.

Definitely true, even more so if you go all in and play a draw engine with intuition/ak .. however in the deck we are currently discussing he doesnt have acess to p 9.

To egg;

a fine list i think but dont you miss ophidan? I know thirst is same cc but nevertheless I feel that ophidian combines pretty well as both wincondition and drawengine

It makes sense to play cow when playing thirst however the b2bs make a more sudden impact; i think that back to basics is the sole reason for playing monoblue, its simple to strong against topdecks; cow is slower. Another line of reasoning in symphony with the cow vs b2b debate is that mono blue suffers from not playing a lot of bombs; Back to basics is a bomb. Especially when running maindeck stifles.

i do agree with running rushing river and mystical tutor. naturally. I totally forgot.

Mana vault is fine too.

I think that our decks differ from how our draw engine is composed and that is also a choice of preference. I do like that ophidian both win games and draw. But of course Tfk has the optimum of drawing cards instantly.

Well firstly I`d like to suggest a look on the mana curve; i see no turn 1 drops besides Brainstorm; which bothers me a little

I suggest that you put in 3x stifle; once I saw Kowals monoblue i immediately got inspired.
Secondly you need to play quick disruption and I suggest 4x chalice of the void. They are awesome for speeding down the play and work to your advantage as you have no p8

I also suggest running lotus petal; it allows a first turn counter.

Quote by;

- 4 impulse ( impulse is a great search card, but not really needed in this deck imo)
- 1 braingeiser
- 1 Stroke of Genius
- x islands ( depending on how many fetch/wastelands you have)

I really like these changes, cunning wish is horrible, what you`d get with it? Bounce? play that main. Alternatively run merchant scrolls when you have advantage it makes sure you have to counters to win.

Now Badwolf; no ophidians in mono blue? You play the ophidians once you have established control and makes sure to push your advantage.. not to walk into edicts or burn. They are one of the single reasons why mono blue "could" be considered viable.

+3 Flooded Strand
+3 Polluted Delta
+1 Brainstorm
+4 Ophidian

These changes are perfect. Fixes the mana base, makes sure you draw threats instead of lands.

The monoblue i`d be running with the cardbase avaible

Disruption
3x stifle; stops the opponent fetching out basics ruining their fragile manabase, stops a welder activation
4x chalice: if the meta you play is not so powered--3 powder keg + 1 merchant scroll
2x back to basics:


Counters 14
4x misidrection
4x force of will
2x counterspell
4x mana drain

Bounce 2
2x echoing truth

Win 6
2x morpling
4x ophidian

Control 2
2x vedaklen schackles

Acceleration 2
1 lotus p
1 sol ring

Draw/fix
1 fof
4x brainstorm

Lands 20
6 fetch
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
9 islands

This is a very stable deck i think.

If you`d like to put in a surprise play a sb which has a good aggro matchup; play

4x oath of druids
1x akroma
1x spirit of the night/razia; depending on whether its fish or burn
1/2 tropical island; could be put in main depending on the meta.

plus obligatory cards

Thatd be all.

Good luck
Kelme

Well, my first post was rather hard, i do realize now.

I think that you should play mana drain, as you play mana spells which`d love mana; thirst, compulsive research--

Another thing is that you seem to play to many lands; 22 plus a lot of accelerants; dont you find that you draw to much mana?

you could cut it down to maybe 17-18 lands (i suggest removing the ancient tombs) and play fetches and brainstorm: in any deck that play many instants or need mana fixing; its perfect!

Agree with draven

Its a good sb card vs oath and fish though

Brainstorm and fetches are amazing.

The major concern with deck is that i am unable to pinpoint which major strategy you seek; I see no ophidians or chalices, i do not see why cursed scroll or grim monolith belong in this deck.

Neither do you have any game breaking combos such as trinket mage-->lotus-->salvagers-->infinite mana-->draw deck with spell bomb..

You run 3x repeal which confuses me; repeal is a cheap cantrip for decks like gifts or md tendrils, not mono blue.

Your manabase is entirely wastelandable.. this troubles me too; this is not a quick combo deck where the loss of a single land is easily compensated for with the quick kill.. you have to sit back and build up. Actually this manabase is the worst i have ever seen; your only blue manaproducers will be shut down with null rod. (excluding the sole academy)

Id love to have you look into some archetypes which you rather not play, Control Slaver for instance.

Why is it a good deck? (is it a good deck?)

Does it have something to do with the players?

How would your build be?

Im quite sure with your understanding of vintage you`d give a quite insightful answer.

Thank you.
 

"So you can attest to the fact that my deck doesn't roll over and die to slaver"

Well naturally, of course. A deck that runs seven maindeck answers to welder, is naturally never going to be a bye.. Hopefully nobody claims that.


"If I remember we were splitting the games pretty even, except for when you hit early tinkers."

And yawgmoths will.

Those two cards are as I pointed out earlier the two most broken cards in the deck and therefore what I would qualify as the greatest threats however I understand your rationale, I really do.


i really like the 2x mazes, not only are they good versus cs, gifts and of course oath.

Kristian.