I have a sort of noob question, but this is the open forum anyway so... here goes.

How does bomberman win? I can't see a win condition anywhere aside from beats, and the tournament report usually goes "And then I combo off for the win." I understand the infinite recursion with the Salvagers and black lotus, as well as drawing cards with spellbombs... but how do you kill?

Why not try putting in a wild mongrel?

Putting in elephant guide might be fun.

Try mirri's guile. It's a one cost replacement to silvan lib (but of course the library is more powerful)

I use Kumano because I don't have the hellkite yet.

Having the hellkite can make me have the reanimate OMG win scenario. :p

@zomar

The spoils build oly works well if you have bazaars (which are out of reach for me...)

Oh yeah, matron's for extended, my bad.

Kiki-jiki=Siege-gang with a piledriver in play? good game!



Trust me, I've been on the recieving end of a painful jiki activation. If you've got nothing to do, you can always copy your sharpshooter or recruiter. :p

Hrm, good point bullsonparade, but it'd take away the fact that gorger is a combo deck that stands up to chalice and null rod hate, two of the most commonly used cards in my meta. I'm just not confident in trying to cast rector early on. Too many factors need to be in place before I can go off.

Why'd I want to play rector trix? If I was going to play rector trix, I'd stick to my fave kill, tendrils of agony.

Too much burn, not enough spells. I'd make room for...

4 Goblin Matron
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 (1/1 goblin which puts other goblins into play whatever his name is)
2 Sharpshooters

kill: 12

3 worldgorger dragon
1 ambassador laquatus
1 Caller of the claw
1 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
4 Animate Dead
2 Necromancy

disrupt: 8
4 FoW
4 duress

draw: 15
3 intuition
3 buried alive
1 demonic tutor
2 read the runes
1 mystical tutor
2 compulsion
1 entomb
2 lim-dul's vault

gas: 25
4 dark ritual
1 underground sea
1 underground river (no more sea...)
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
4 gemstone mine
1 sol ring
2 polluted delta
4 forbidden orchard
1 mana crypt
3 island
2 swamp

SB: 15
2 REB
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Verdant force
2 rack and ruin
2 sacred ground
2 ray of revalation

I'm making a budget dragon since stax was deemed nigh unworkable without a major facelift. Budget concerns:

bazaar= compulsion. crappy replacement I know, but it works.
read the runes = instant speed compulsion

So... should I play Duress or Xantid Swarm? Should I cut blue and run black/green?

pleease...

blue gives me access to FoW, intuition and lim-dul's vault.

green gives me ESG, Xantid and possibly eternal witness. Then I'd have to be B/G spoils, but I'd lack compulsion...

thoughts? card choices? lists?

I'd like to run Tog in our meta (mostly unpowered) and I see that Tog has the tools needed to take out the artifacts, fish and oath decks. I'm sleeving up a budget build (sans P9). I'd just like some help with the aggro matchup. Green is usually fine since Tog stops their aggro, but I'm having a bit of trouble with red.

I'm ashamed to say it, but I've always had an awful record against red.

My EBA lost to red in the semis... Bad experience...

WELL, you could use stifle and illusionary mask...

but why bother? Use phyrexian dreadnoughts instead.

@Arvid:

I'm just saying that Orim's Chant could be used to delay your opponent's turn. Casting it during his upkeep nets you an effective "extra turn" for your upkeep. Since you're an aggro deck, you'll needto stop his board development somehow. Cast turn 2-3, especially with Kataki in play, you can get some early beats as well as lay down some critters.

@ arvid: Oh, sorry. Let's look at the choices:

Chalice: it'd be awesome, but you're a bit light on the mana department yourself.

Null Rod: Shuts down artifact decks (except stax) but you can't use your Aether Vials

Orim's Chant: Time Walk 4=5. Stops combo dead in mid-play. TPS will be That Play Stalled. :p

Glowrider (or please don't flame me at once): More lock, less offense. But let's face it, white weenie's strength in T1 is not it's speed anymore, it's the redundancy and versatility of its creature base.

I like your build. I really do. Try posting some results so we can get a good idea on how it works.

I'm just thinking, would an imperial plate be worth a slot in URPhid or MonoBlue? Since most of you are running Phid as the win condition, wouldn't a phid wearing the plate be a faster clock, especially with a full grip?

Then again, Jitte does more things.

I actually like the idea behind the deck, with the myriad of interactions it has. I'm just concerned about:

1. Consistency.
I see you're running and using gifts. While this does give you access to your one-ofs, your engine doesn't give the GG result that other gift belcher builds do. It'd be easy to disrupt your multiple combos, especially since you only have 2 Duress, 1 Boseju and 2 FOW to force your threats through.

2. Focus.
I find this deck is trying to do too much. Try to focus on one aspect. This looks a bit too highlander-ish to me, and while that isn't necessarily bad, you need at least some sort of reundancy in your pieces.

as always, elias.

PS. try giving a bit of a primer on the detailed interactions and how fast you can tutor for them to help move the discussion along. We'd be extremely thankful.

But gifts already has Recoup to make the engine run. It's be just another redundant slot which costs 1 more mana to play. Some people might use it to get around chalice though. And recoup can do what Deja Vu does twice (if in hand).

I guess upping the number of Triskellions in a random field would give you the edge against the many aggro decks you could be facing. Duplicant in the SB against oath seem a good idea.

Cutting brainstorm for impulse as a foil to Chalice for 1 is something I've been meddling with. It weakens the "hiding cards from duress aspect", but overall, I'm liking it better.

cheers and good luck.

PS, I find that having 2 mindslavers is optimal. as it prevents random phyrexian furnace activations...

4 swords seems a bit too much for me. Since you're running blue, why not try using FoW and stifle and make it run as a semi WU Tang fish deck?

Icatian Javelin, Pale Curtain and Kataki look pretty solid and so do their numbers. turn 1 meddling mage v oath is almost GG. Wayfarer seems a bit too slow for the meta today as the number of lands aren't really the issue. True believer as a maindeck answer (as much as I hate it since I play TPS) is strong, especially in multiples.

against oath: bounce, swords and tapping seem okay.

I think null rod is more of splash damage rather than meandeck hate. It also shuts off gifts and TPS quite handily. Yet Uba stax USES null rod, so I think you can actually use the rod to lock down opposing decks.

Artifact destruction DOES offer problems. In the case of rack and ruin, if you have a welder in play, you can fizzle the spell anyway. If not, you might want to consider using seal on one of the artifacts targeted.

THEN we board in BEB.

As for the opponent's board having an advantage after destroying your artifacts, well, balance should do quite well in evening things out.

I agree, without the bazaars, you'd be moving at the same speed as your opponent.

If you wanna have an Uba mask type lock in a budget stax, use possessed portal. It DOES cost 8 and you' probably just have to tinker/weld it in, but it stops ALL the draws. Just make sure your board is better than his.

I'm also playing around with the idea of cutting stax altogether and using the crux, fastbond, zuran orb combo... Zuran orb's a weldable 0 cost, so no big. but it'd be an ass to get fastbond into play.

I tried to base my build on chang stax or 5C stax since it has the versatility that all the colors offer. Vroman himself alluded to the fact that he cut cards to make his deck more focused on locking, albeit weakening its versatility.

In one sense, it's faster and more dogged than 5c stax, but 5c has more options and your larger card pool allows you to overcome the abscence of power.

(am I right so far?)

Hey, it looks like we can break the Lotus Eye Diamond again with this one.

At least LED is restricted this time around.

Stacker? Links to lists please...

*Sigh*

Chalice of the Void and pithing Needle might be a good way of upping my permanent count, but yeah, that's what the moxen are for...

Less stax and more Sphere of Resistance?

I really love how stax wnis with class though.

An Exalted Angel and Decree of Justice would be nice Kill conditions. Angel can get down early and you'll just have to protect her.

Try getting room for Counterspell or Mana Drain instead of Arcane Denial since Denial gives your opponents more threats. Confinement+squee lock is intereseting, but it's just a "I don't lose" card. It'd be better if you invest more cards in trying to win instead of playing turtle (even if this IS a control deck)

Oh yes, a random Wrath or Akroma's Vengeance would be nice.

Please put in BALANCE.

Thanks for the replies.

Ensnaring bridge looks pretty promising. Would Bosh be an addition or is Trisk enough to win with a bridge in play? Upping the number of Trisk looks to be the most obvious choice for me.

Shaman definitely will be cut. I'd feel safer with the Seals of Cleansing.

Is there any way for me to gain life against mono-red aggroxburn? In all my decks, I've been having problems with red the most even if I get past combo, oath and the random aggro deck. Fast direct damage really causes a problem...

Clearwater goblet? But I'd need to put more counters, and adding a card that does that makes this a suckier deck.

Sun Droplets?

Gragh...

Gain life?

In a meta with close to no power, is Stax or Slaver the deck worth building?

Budget = no drains, no workshops, no power.

Possible?

My list...

STAX

[8]
1 Sundering Titan0
1 Triskellion
1 Karn, Silverr Golem
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
[3]
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
[15]
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
[6]
1 Crop Rotation
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

MANA GASSS [28]

1 Barbarian RIng
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Glimmervoid
2 City of Brass
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Great Furnace
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Voltaic Key

SB [15]

1 Jester's Cap
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Choke
2 Seal fo Cleansing
3 Red Elemental Blast

Newbie forum.

CS is primarily Blue for counters and card draw. Red and black are splashed for welders and tutors. Putting in 4 duress might be a strain on the manabase as far as I'm concerned.

Plus turn 1 duress isn't really as good as turn 1 mana drain.

Wasteland is better than dustbowl in the sense that you only need to sacrifice it in order to waste a nonbasic land.
Crucible of world recursion is a nice thing too.

If you really wanna try something that runs a bit like this, try 3color control or EBA. I've had good results with EBA a few months ago.

Resolved turn 1 meddling mage = GG against Oath (at least most of the time)

try getting 4 welders. they're running rampant in T1 right now.

and maybe oath? depends on the deck you want to build.

I agree with playing it safe in TPS. I usually save my duress (unless I know the deck wins faster than me) up to the point where I go off to draw possible counters or to nab counters. I also wait to untap after casting Yawg Bargain unless I have multiple Rits in hand.

I'd just like to know the philosophy of the thread starter. Do you wait a turn or just go off ASAP?

Thanks BigMac. And sorry to Jacob about that. I'll stick to the rules.

I just tested out my unpowered TPS today against two random decks. One was a random ponza packing 8 LD spells and one was a stasis-go deck.

I noticed that I usually combo out turns 3-5. Way slower than normal TPS. To make up for this delay, I've put in cards such as Zuran Orb (spell count, great with Yawg Bargain and the skull), Balance and an additional copy of Tendrils for those times I come up short.

In the first two games, I get wrecked by the LD. I could've won the second game if I had picked Molten Rain instead of Desperate Ritual as a duress target. In the next five games I got the hang of using my intuitions (Yawg Bargain/Will, M Desire, Future Sight) Whatever they pick, I usually get enough mana to do a lethal tendrils, or at least a high enough count to stabilize my hand/board/grave for another go.

Thanks for the thread. Even if I can't find any decent budget builds, I'm still learning lots.

Would TPS be better with a gifts/recoup engine or would it just be jankier and more likely to fizzle out? Coffin purge wrecks a lot of Gifts tricks...

Oh, and for those with budget experience, would putting in two cabal rituals and ESG's in place of MoxenLotus be a good call?