Curious over taking jailer over other forms of hate for ichorid.

i am also experiencing very good results in testing with uba stax.
i absolutely love uba mask, and for is a must. the better you become with the deck, these become golden, every bazaar you wish for one of them to draw.
I went back karn and haven't looked back, he is just flat out amazing. an active welder makes it pretty much game over.
This deck is one giant enormous synergy killing machine.
active welder is the key to the absolute broken plays with this deck though.
COW+mishra factory, infinite dryad blocks, and infinite welder.
I play with:
2 karn
1 mana crypt
3 serum powder
this has been amazing for me, uba stax almost always has a decent opening hand, but im not afraid to mull it, esp if i have opening serum as well as a chance to mull into one.
mana crypt hasn't been a problem for me at all, it allows broken openings, can be taken out from stax, welder and karn.
karn also allows for huge chumping vs dryad if you need to, as well as providing a huge clock for your opponent.
I almost always use the bazaar on my upkeep with no cards in hand, as long as i don't have a good chance of milling my welders out. this fills your grave, allowing for barb rings to get online and huge welder fun when you get him.

Play this deck, it is amazing.

However im still very undecided on the sideboard, kegs i agree are very good. I like 3 trikes in there as well, cuz they pretty much own creature decks/ other welders. 4 ;eylines, i am kinda torn on this... they are soooo good esp with 3 powders maindeck, but they are just bazaar food almost all the time after turn 0. (lotus, or double jet). Jesters caps are pretty amazing, i have a lot of t2 concessions after an active cap. pretty good vs flash or combo.

Cards i would also consider
- tangle wire
- ensaring bridge
- null rod
- the old r/g fastbond/crop rotation 4 taiga, with sideboard ray of revelation?

you make a good point, the one thing i really hate about uba stax is that it has a weak aggro finish. Most games i just go for a uba lock though.

One option that i was considering was

-2 factories
+2 urborg tomb

i only cut the factory because there was nothing else i really want to cut, mabye i could do -1 waste and something else.

the tomb is an interesting idea, for one it helps with turning bazaars into mana, shops into real mana ect.
helpful against things like kataki, or flux, you can actually hardcast leyline!!! ect.

thoughts?

i was playing 2 karn before i switched to sole/dup.
karn is huge, he can block all day long, eat moxen, and is usually a 1-2 turn clock.
however i find him really bad when i need to get out of a jam, dup/sole can pretty much do so much more. the game
can take a bit longer, but usually i just go for an uba mask lock.
most of the time karn just wins games that you have all right winning in the first place

i think that md ensaring bridge is a bad call, sure it can stop a bunch of stuff, but it does nothing to lock anyone. the are still going to go nuts and then win. I would way rather drop a few lock pieces and take a few hits from a dryad then roll out mishras factory, dup, or jenns to take the hits and give me an advantage.
Bridge is absolutely dead vs combo/control decks, the only huge advantage is ichorid, but id rather just bring in leylines, powder into one, then drop a 2sphere then just uba lock them or something.
I think uba is an amazing card, once you start actually really forcing the uba it can get pretty sick.
Serum powders are pretty amazing, however ive cut it down to only 3...and cut karn for dup and jenns MD instead.
these two are amazing.
One matchup that ive been playing a lot recently on MWS (woot) has been 5c stax (shop decks, that arent uba) and ive found that uba has a pretty good match up overall, the one thing you really have to watch game one is your uba's and there welders..or else its game. I have 3 trikes in the board so i bring in
+4 leyline
+3 trike
-4 uba
-1 bazaar
-1 2sphere
-1 black lotus
This has worked out pretty good, its all bout the welder, cow, and not puting artifacts in your yard.

the 3 trikes have been pretty amazing, they are good vs welders and any form of aggro. they can kill themselves in resp to ichroid bridges and still get in some damage.

I was just curious about cards generally find themselves boarding out, and vs what decks. Who do you find will generally play leyline and who doesnt?

Will the new meta of FS phase out control slaver and mana drain?
I think cs will hold true and can and will be altered to meet this new meta.
Some questions to consider?
1. Whats to slow or unneeded?
-Cow and strip mine?
-Titan-dup
-burning wish?
Mostly cards from burning slaver builds built to fight blue mages.
Cards to consider, all most likely have been tried before, but in regards to this upcoming meta
-2 tormods crypt MD
-gifts or tfk
-big robots- platz, trisk, triskbus, dsc?
-ETW?
-trickbind, stifle, extripate (sb as well)
-duress MD
-merchant scroll
-repeal
-memory jar

Sideboard
-sudden shock, or any other split second card
-E. bridge
-leyline
-crypt
-chalice
-eng. Explosives

Can Control Slaver adapt and survive to the 3-4 turn? or is the recent combo trend pushing slaver to the side?

What about taking the grunts out as well as 2 other cards (-1 jugg, -1 Null rod??) and run 4 confidant as well as a W/B mana base.

Any new updates on the deck, ive been playing with it for a while and i was just wondering if you have come up with any new conclusions.
what has your testing vs flash decks shown you.
I'm currently trying -1 pearl for 1 monkey

Burning Belcher
Nat Moes


4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
3 Seething Song
4 Chromatic Star

3 Goblin Welder
4 Pyroblast
2 Living Wish

1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Channel
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Shattering Spree
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Goblin Welder
1 Taiga

And also, with blue added.

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
2 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
1 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
 

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Pyroblast
3 Seething Song

Sorceries
1 Channel
4 Empty The Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite Of Flame
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Windfall

Lands
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island

This is a nice little piece of tech but with ancient grudge running around you need to have welder in play to use bridge effectively. With scales you cannot keep the mons goblin raiders in play were cs wants him.

So what the general opinion is, we should lock oath in a basement and beat it with sacs of oranges untel people  just dont play it ever...because its still a very viable deck.
So what happens to slaver in a heavy oath/fish field? do we go play Urgo rivards build?
I seem to remember this deck was meta'ed for a fish/oath meta.

Reference:

A Vintage deck, by Ugo Rivard
1st place at a StarCityGames Power 9 Tournament tournament in Rochester, New York on 2005-12-11

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion

Creatures
3 Goblin Welder

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mana Leak
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Artifact Lands
1 Seat Of The Synod

Basic Lands
3 Island

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
2 Lava Dart
1 Pyroblast
3 Rack And Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm

Interesting choices, Plat angel...oath cant win if oath cant kill you...ANCIENT GRUDGE, o right.
+2 Lava dart board, +3blood moon....
Md COW, which people still play, im still on the fence on this one, however, this allows strip mine and Seat of synod to be very dangerous lands. infinte slave  strip lock is nice. No dups anywhere to be seen. Also 3 mana leak, this give a good early game vs fish and oath, any deck for that matter.
Kinda out dated, but still viable, peoples thoughts????

This is a matchup were i cannot help but feel i am at a sure disadvantage.
The slaver player is pretty much in hardcore defense mode, and the oath player is just looking to drop a rod or oath and then win, now in a fair game where niether player is drawing a million cards, the oath player can just keep pumping out the threats and eventually win.
In game 2/3 im am unsure on what i want to be boarding out and in?
What are cards that i want to bring in vs them??

Ensnaring Bridge- A good option, immune to null rod and lets oath resolve.
untell the printing of Ancient grudge...which destroys this plan, it is usefull if you have a welder in play though.

DarkBlast- Holds off the win for a bit, costs you your draw, which means that you dont really have a way to find answers and advance your board.

Claws of Gix- A great card, pitchs for thirst, as does bridge, and give you life- which is a semi timewalk vs oath some games. O ya, and it gets OWNED by null rod.

Red Elemental Blast- Helps in the counter war...can be dead card sometimes, cannot stop an oath.

Stifle- Hampers there development, allows you to develop and reach late game.

Duress- An option, this allows the slaver player to play more aggresively and nuter oath in its infancey, not as much help once oath in play.

Bounce- River/chain/repeal/truth/wipe- some can bounce angels rods and oath, other can only do some, which are the best picks, and is it still a good use of space in the sb vs other matchups.

Mabye i missed a few, if so please point them out, what are peoples experiences on this issue vs oath. Gifts and other controllish decks are in the same boat,
thoughts? Suggestions?

This would break the fundemental rule that that intire deck is based off, if you dont understand what this deck is designed to do then please go play grim long, and use xantid swarms and all the duress you want.

This deck is all about chaining spells together, not to find and cast will (which is nice anyway), or too duress...see if the coast is clear and then play nercopotence and pass the turn. Altough these are all still plays with this deck it is not what i wants to do, especially in game one.....
Most of the time, you look at your hand, see a good number of draw and mana spells..and just GO, chain spells into another, and another, and cast tendrils GG.

Moxlotus said it best, "I think the problem isn't just that you give them an extra turn but what they can do with that extra turn."
this is exactly it, you cannot allow your opponent to draw that timewalk, sphere, or anything, each time that your opponent take a turn your chances of winning is decreased.
Almost all of the time you can go off turn 1 or turn 2. With the list that i toy around with can chain spells like theres no tomorrow and usually pull off a turn 1 kill. When playing person to person you can use physical play, much like a poker player. If your oppenent knows what deck your playing, or at least that your going to kill them turn 1, they are scared shittless. This makes it very easy to bluff a spell to be FOW and shot down, many times i have used this to actually get that storm up to 9, when normally i couldnt. The one weakness is landgrant, but with so much chaining and spells going off, people dont know what to counter, a lot of the time, that mox ruby is what i really need to resolve...not the nights whipser. they know i have.

Adding xantid swarm is wrong, it delutes the deck and is a dead card when its not turn one.
Forces allow you to protect your combo, add storm, and stop spheres.
Each turn your oppentent gets his chances of winning increase, usually its a turn 1/2 kill or blow. sometimes you can slow roll, but not recommended. This deck plays balls to the wall, chaining all its spells, diluting the deck is the last thing you want to do. Cards that WIN NOW are needed, no cards to set up a combo.

good points vs wipe away, well put.

One other thing i have been testing is running
1 trisk
1 triskavus

This can win battles vs stax and fish. Of course having infinite slaver is nice, but hardly ever needed.
Jotun grunt can still be a problem opposed to duplicant.
I will post more later, i have to run atm

what about wipe away, i think this is a better card than echoing truth, sure its one more blue, but its soo much more. In a stax/fish matchup that one can be more difficult, and it also doesnt have the ablitly to bounce multiple stax/wire/mages ect. Does this still warrent play over e.truth, or is Split second just a fancy uneeded machanic in slaver.

Well said, i think that trickbind and wipe away will help in these matchups. Grim long being the only current one to have Md duress to deal with either card. I think that a slaver player holding either card is a very powerful thing vs a gifts deck, it allows you to get the turns you need to do things, ie activate slaver.

i think that adding lands and taking out more of draw and suffle is a thing this deck cannot afford.
This deck plays to tight to allow more lands, often you will be running off just draw spells and chaining one into the other, with more lands in the deck this means more lost games.
Land grant can be bad when its the first or second spell, but mid combo it is much less of a matter. The shear suffle effect of landgrant is to great to pass up. Brainstorm and landgrant (as well as the 1 fetchland) are amazing together and provide strength for cards like perilous research and nights whipser as well as all the cantips to do what they do best.....DIG. After all, brainstorming, drawing nights whipser with no suffle effect and 1-2 dead cards is one thing this deck cannot afford.
adding more land, and egg i think is a bad idea, to often in testing i have found the lack of suffle to be to weak. Also by adding lands and egg, you take away from a major fact- Almost no blue! this means for game 2 and 3, you are virtually dead in the water with FOW. which is almost, or should be sided in each game. With the lack of P.reseach and 4 repeal, this leaves you with a third of the blue in the deck. Making Fow much much weaker.
Playing this deck i find requires very physical play, in that you can use your face and posture as a tool to bluff certain spells to be countered or not. Showing weakness in strength. Plus adding storm! True that landgrant can hamper this, but all in all i think its a needed card in this deck.

interesting approach, i find the deck plays to on the edge or run more lands or cards that dont add percious storm. however the loss of landgrant is a plus and a minus, but the fact that your not showing a smart opponent holding a force, your game plan is a definte bonus. Usually when my opp doesnt know your hand you can use physical gestures and attidude to bluff certian bombs through as decoy spells. This increases storm, and gets rid of that nasty force in your opponents hand. However i have found landgrant to be not so bad as to not run it.
I would really recommend running stars and p.research. I also removed vamp and imp seal and added 2 nights whisper. This makes the drawing engine so much stronger, sure you cant do little vamp tricks but you usually dont need it when you can just draw a few more cards then spoils FTW.

yes this is true, i didnt really notice it, then we i was goldfishing i saw it. Great Scott! ya its actually a very nice combo mixed in there, it fits right in with the deck, star+research=3 mana, and u get 3 cards, and make huge threshold. My last 10 goldfishs with this new change now has 9 of them being turn 1 kill. The research is amazing with star, it makes cabal rit so much more amazing. This also made vamp and seal more flexable and playable md.


I have not had a problem with this. Now that you know that there is more blue in the deck, you just have to remind yourself of it, with the increased strength of cabal rit, i find myself just basically running to fill my grave and cast it and win.

The stax deck i just played vs-
game1= he wins flip, shop trini...gg
game2= i win turn 1, he shows hand, 2 turn 1 2spheres...pwnage
game3= stax goes mox sol ring 2sphere, i FOW and win my turn 1.

I have found that this additional blue over Nights whisper to greatly increase the actual times you can cast force and not lose a Brainstorm when u are going to land grant or something.

ill give research a try, it seems stronger, well see if the blue is a hassel or not.
What about cards like vamp tutor and imp seal? Do these deserve a maindeck slot? does breaking the fundemental rule of the deck still warrent inclusion if it does get lotus/will

Chromatic star better than darkwater egg? i think so, p.research with star in play can mean sac it and get a card for it anyway, just another little trick i guess

For a long time now i have been playing around with the pile that most people call meandeck tendrils. There is nothing better than pwning 1st turn at a very high %, recently cards like repeal have altered the deck from its original form which used cards like sleight of hand instead.
The addition of repeal has been give and take, sure it stops chalice but null rod... that can be a much harder feat to accomplish before you are picked apart and have no hope of winning. Also spending 3 mana to draw 1 card is the last thing the deck wants to do, even if this does mean having a chance to combo.
i have been trying 4 sleight and 4 nights whisper, for a much more basic and original chain combo that the deck was once based on.
Tricks like tap mox saf and repeal then replay, for upped storm i find much weaker than drawing more cards, sure its just 1 card...but 1 card is a lot in this deck.
I have also been tinkering around with sbing Necro/vampT/Impseal for games where you can afford to set up a combo and not just go nuts turn 1.
Another new addition is Chromatic star...basically another chromatic sphere..but now it has 5 points, not just some ball thing. I have played this over darkwater egg, with no problems.

Anywho this is my current deck list:

// Lands
    1  Bayou
    1  Tropical Island
    1  Windswept Heath

// Spells
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Spoils of the Vault
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Cabal Ritual
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Chrome Mox
    4  Night's Whisper
    4  Land Grant
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    4  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Chromatic Star
    4  Chromatic Sphere
    3  Sleight of Hand
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Imperial Seal

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Bayou
SB: 4  Force of Will
SB: 2  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2  Chain of Vapor
SB: 1  Elvish Spirit Guide
SB: 1  Necropotence
SB: 4  Duress


Thoughts and comments?

Removed Repeated Text.
Please try to add a bit more content on card choices if possible. Thanks.
-- TAL

i am on a love hate relationship with duress, its just to on and off in the maindeck. The one big pro, which was already pointed out, that it misdirects the opponent and might cause him to make bad plays.

some draw cards that where missed:

Skeletal Scrying- its black, its good late game and draws you lots of cards and basically can win the control matchup if timed right. Not dead in aggro matchup, but weaker.

Deep analysis- almost always a sb card, usually as a 1 of, strong in the control matchup again, but very weak in combo and aggro. Still an option in a drain meta.

What are peoples thoughts on this article? I think that Vintage is the hardest format to be consistantly good at. The random factor is very potent, but the skilled players will almost always win the 2/3 games vs someone who doesnt really know what to do, and just plain lucksacs you turn 1.
Formats such as t2 are much more a plain flat out consistant deck, no tricks or brokeness. t2 can be a extremely hard format to be great at, but to be good at vintage is just so much more of a feat.

What im wondering is why not play a birdshit style of deck like listed above, it has everything and more of what UW fish has, also even more sysnergy with the new best card for fish, grunt. Birdshit allows you to fuel grunt if needed, sometimes i have fallen short in a game where it would mean the difference between winning and lossing. Also as previously stated, with the rise of aggro fish'esk decks, you have much more of an advantage. And seriously....nimble mongoose wins games, i love that little guy, but grunt and mongoose can have fights sometimes about who gets more love.
Anyway, i dont see the strength of uw fish over a wtf/birdshit approach.

This deck is a house, one major flaw is the fact that chalice @ 2 is GG.
Grunt is amazing, the amount of fetchs is good for fueling him sometimes. I have changed out the ninjas for Az guildmage which has been amazing, winning games with DSC on the table, or stopping a huge M.jar bust or mindslaver. I imagine its good vs oath as well..
I also added dazes which are amazing for tempo, and the fact that u only ever need 2 mana helps too.
I reduced the stifle count a bit and tried to run null rod, with mixed results, however...rod is rod and usually causes huge problems over the whole game that a single stifle cannot provide.
I dont think that misd are even needed and are more of just a waste card, 3 daze is much more powerful.
For sideboard, mabye cutting the swords, adding 2-3 more jittes (which are amazing in aggro matchups..duh). The kataki's are so-so, flux is better, but again the fact that it doesnt turn sideways is a major minus. True Believer is nice, but the WW can be a pain sometimes. Pithing needle can be run as a 3-4of and can be boarded in vs tons of decks, crippling welders and bazaars. Crypts arnt needed, because of Super grunt of doom. One creature that could be a good fit would be Negator, this can provide an amazing clock if aggro isnt a huge worry of yours. D-Blast can mabye be a one of in the SB.

Overall my changes from the Orginal decklist:

+1 myst tutor  (finds time walk, recall, SB darkblast, and its BLUE)
+3 daze
-1 hide and seek
-2 misd
-1 stifle

Sb:
3 jitte
4 kataki
3 true believer
1 darkblast
1 stifle
3 pithing needle

Overall, amazing deck needs some fine tunning

As a usual drain player i would have to agree that duress is very powerful vs them, however vs slaver its not as great, b/c of your amount of misd and fow. Vs gifts it would be much better because you can lure drains out and snag a gifts and ruin there game, or just grab the drain/fow and win.

Currently i have 4 mana drains and want to put them to use in a NO POWER deck...and not oath.
I am also considering trading the drains for either bazaars or shops (+cash). I am also considering buy 1-2 pieces of power, what are my best options when it comes to deck building? I have all other vintage stapels and duels.