Nice to be able to discuss our favorite deck again!

Well I have been playing Burning Slaver for as long as the list have existed on these pages and I must confess that its ability go off using Tendrils is something that enables me to trash oath.

I have been toying around with the SB and put an imperial seal in it. Dont know what you guys think of that.

To AtogLord; firstly I think that you have found some very good answer cards, and I have had good testing results with both builds; however I must pose a question to you.

How come that you dont include burning wish?

And Rack and ruin how did that fare?

I do like your sb too and crypt is just amazing.

Thanks..

Well I like the look of that..I just wanted to drop by and ask whether there could be room for a single shaman or two? seems like you may need something beyond the truth, to remove pesky needle.

1: Nevermore: The Learning is an all time favorite.

Nirvana: Dumb

Deftones: Passenger

In denmark we have 1-2 vintage tourneys per month and  i wont complain about that however we arent allowed proxies..

Congratulations Brian.

I am sad that I most likely will never play you..seems like you got it under control..would otherwise be pleased to watch you show me how to play control slaver as apparently you must be brilliant!

Kristian

Hallo everyone.

A while ago I was presented KI.TT by its creator. He told me that he had designed a new deck I should test. The following night I didnt get much sleep as I sat up goldfishing the deck. I am typically a control player but I have always admired combo decks. I was quite fashinated by koboldclamp some time ago but this deck seemed much better I felt. So I felt that I had to test in the proper mileu a tournament. I have also been consistently a top 8 player but never actually won one. Well, this deck took me to the top and I ended up winning it.

Heres what I like about it.

firstly in Europe we dont have proxy tournaments so people with little power (or influental friends) actually always wind up playing fish or the mountains win again, fcg and so on. While these decks have proven their worth this deck provides people with what I think a "broken" in the truest sense of the word deck. A deck that has a 48% first turn kill is what I define the epitome of broken.

So, this is also good for the magic community as a whole i think.

Secondly it has synergistic features truly abusing cc0 spells that affect creatures by doing important combo moves; mana acceleation and tutoring; intent, culling the weak, that arent shut down by null rod and a nice draw engine. And cabal ritual also deserves a say too; while duress gets you their best card, cabal ritual assures you with a high percentage of getting something like it. And it can actually ruin an opponents hand.

But it needs to be mentioned that the omnipresent chalice of the void is very disruptive. Stax is generally a bad matchup presideboarding but the sb is anyways dedicated to improve it.

Vertigo

I think something isnt right here; Brian shares information with us, which you could just ignore if you dont like, and the result is that a: everybody but smemmen ignores that solemn actually is a thirst target and a manadrain target; that a has synergy with welder; and increase board control AND CARDADVANTAGE.,

Looking through the posts i think that we need a different attitude an attitude based on empiricism not rationalism, that instead of attacking the card (or the person who kindly shared this information) theoretically we need to test it out empirically. If FFY says it has proven good, then why not try it out?

What I meant by graveyard becoming board control I was thinking about exactly this point:

"the right control build should be able to dominate Slaver, as Slaver has a few threats backed by counter, and that lets control force it to become the beatdown, and Slaver shouldn't be able to win that fight against a conscious opponent."

Unless you are a very lucky/good player a turn one welder spells major problems for the average control player or even the aforementioned conscious player. If the control slaver player is playing right he now has two options; engage in a counterwar on resolving TfK or engaging in a control battle with one ultimate goal..reaching 8 cards in hand and then discarding a fatty.

I know of course that you said THE RIGHT CONTROL DECK..but this is a abstact material to discuss with (sorry i am danish hopefully you understand what is being meant)  as we are yet to define what this is.

In the age of netdecking it is possible to attain a certain level of information of A: what are the meta dominated by? How many random decks are present? C: who are the good players and what do they play? 

The right control deck maybe a metadeck; a deck which is boldly constructed as Bleiweiss`was.

For example lets picture a fictional meta where
a: gifts control
b: A lot of aggro
c: They play gifts combo.

4cc or whatever its called has the most numerous meta slots. They need maybe 4x win cards and then the rest can be suited towards a given meta.

Lets say, to combat:
a: red elemental blast/pyroblast/duress/gorilla shaman
b: cunning wishes maindeck/maybe even pyroclasm/ lots of swords.
c: here your specific meta relevant knowledge enters.

This is maybe an the best answers to the concept of the right control deck.

Hopefully you enjoyed my post.

Well written post and I understand the question you ask.

 Keeper is NOT necessarily dead but when you echo something enough it will be dead literally. People kept claiming Control Slaver is dead and then it won 4-5 tournaments on a worldwide scale of course..

Maybe  keeper died because people didnt want to play it anymore. Maybe because Exalted Angel and Morphling isnt good anymore? Maybe because that graveyards became a new card of board control? 

The newest list I was able to find with keeper (i didnt look very much though) is from the german championsships date: 140805

1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
   4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Balance
2 Decree of Justice
1 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (19):
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

 SB.
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Coffin Purge
2 Disenchant
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
2 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Pithing Needle
3 Serenity
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares

I dont know if it answered anything. Hopefully it did.

Vertigo

"but it did awful in Europe" is simply not true. Stax won the german vintage championsship placing 3 people in top 8!

Nice breakdown. Good toolbox for future and present use. Thank you.

Regarding the CS/Bazaar question we have in europe seen a breed of a much more aggressive control slaver variant. Bear in mind the prevalence of aggro here. However maybe you will find it useful.

1 Black Lotus
4 Juggernaut
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tangle Wire
3 Triskelion
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
1 Frantic Search
2 Intuition
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Anger
4 Goblin Welder
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Lands (15):
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island

It won a tourney here not long ago. -I myself dont really know if this is good or bad..i just felt you should see it.

Well, I have tested intuition thouroughly and consider it a tempo question.. and if you have or just have access to will it can be used a semi gifts-

Try it out..it gives a boost in your tempo!

"It also gets black lotus and Academy, which are nothing less than amazing, period. when you are holding Yawgmoth's Will. "
-right, even if NOT holding yawgmoths Willl

Smemmen, can you give us a clue as to how you would construct a CS deck?
You must have given it some considerations too!

Atog Lord: I have tried out the single tormods crypt. And was happy with the results:)

Its such a bomb if the opponent does count on it..or just to keep him from gifting!


Nice gentlemen to see such an exchange of information. Lets keep the input flowing.

I have also found the leaks powerful in the stax or tpsmatchup

We should be grateful for the many versions of CS and set aside our differences. We need take in the input provided by these fine results.

Actually I think that we in 2-3 have received a new Foucaultian tool box. A weaponry or design that can be applicated to various metas.

I think that the decklists posted reveal 3 different patterns.

First one let us call it the European version of CS that is based around; universal hate access through the cunning wishes. And tempo through intuition. In Europe these two innovations are necessary as we combat a lot of "random" (IE aggro) decks that are prevalent here. And we need tempo in order to seal the deal.

Another pattern I see is the über control version of CS, i.e the "ugo list" (lets just call it that) which is based around 3x leak, 1x strip, cow. This is a nice addition to the tool box i think.

Finally a combo version of Cs. I have found this list pparticularlyiinterestingsinc e I like the way it runs denial in form of the 2x mox monkeys, mindslaver activations and a combo kill to get out situations you cant win.

These innovations sshouldn'tbe shrouded in pointless arguments and flamings. We need to focus on the tools developed here. For instance if i know I am going to face a meta filled with combo could use Demars` 2x gorilla shaman and Ugos 3x mana leak. If I went to a meta filled with oath then 3x leak +1 burning wish + 1 whatever.

This is quite an addition I think.

Thank you

Control Slaver is really rocking right now putting up extraordinary records..Rochester, Michigian, Italy and DENMARK. In Denmark this following list recently took home another lotus. And there were so much gws oath, minimally 6 players out of 25 players. This tournament was an invitational one, featuring THE BEST players in Denmark. Here you go

4 Thirst for knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
2 Cunning Wish
4 Goblin Welder
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Tinker
4 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Extract
1 Firestorm
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Rushing River
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush
1 Misdirection
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Fire/ice
1 Duplicant

Have a nice christmas.

-Vertigo

Hello everybody.

I am a Danish Vintage player with a full p9 set. Nevertheless am I a strong advocate of it. We have quite good players here and they are mostly quite young and therefore unable to buy a full p9 set.

Because so few people own power here, Maximally 50 people, we see a decline in competitors. 
Around 35 people were present during the Vintage Nationals for gods sake!

I would prefer to look at a plains with time walk written on it than a kird ape.

However there should be a limit on proxies in that I dont want to see that owning cards is superflous.

Good discussion, see you   





 We dont use proxies here  although I am a strong advocate of it.

So far this discussion has been nothing but enlightening but I need some help really.

I have just qualified for an invitational t1 tourney in Denmark where I expect mostly Gifts Ungiven and TPS.

I would like to hear y`all (and very bold lists to this specific meta are encouraged ) by what design  WOULD make your lists?

I have a week from now
 

Stopping will is fundamental to defeating gifts. We have 3-4-5 answers to their collosus maindeck.

What are your oppinions on the other suggestions I made?

Looking forward to seeing the results from the tourney! 

About stifling darkblast I do not know however yes..tormods crypt was also a part of my ponderings about it.

Darkblast is annyoing to say the least.

Tormods crypt may prove a valid tool since welder really can abuse it! it pitches to thirst too and is easily useable!

Cant agree more with that forcefieldyou.

In my oppinion tutors are mandatory must-includes. As are gorilla shamans unless you play in a random meta. For that case so is burning wish tendrils. I know there isn't that much room anymore if you go the burning wish-tendrils route but I would like to add that a single tormods crypt maindeck may be a good idea.

Why not add pressure? It forces gifts players to play with us. I know this is a meta contextual choice but with

2x gorilla shaman
1x tormods crypt
1x burning wish
1x sundering titan

It seems that we have a solid disrupting base which may buy us the time to seal the win with pentavus-mindslaver activations.

However darkblast has proven to be highly dangerous. Any strategies to playing around it?

I just top8`ed here in a local tournament with slaver. So first of all this is an enlightening discussion, I think.
However on advice from a friend I made the decision to move sundering titan mainboard. He MvP!! He rocks in a controllish meta..Especially versus gifts.

He has been very good in many matchups especially in the control mirrors where you often can take out 2-3 lands. Combined with gorilla shaman they have proved a strong Tag-Team.

I however faced a lot of complications in the fish/birdshit matchup versions running null rod. Chalice of the void is rarely a question really when playing gorilla shamans maindeck. For that I thank you forcefieldyou. He is paramount in slaver
 
I must admit that i played without the burning wish/tendrils plan which may have been foolish. I suppose that in these matchup it shines and for that reason alone be a valid card in slaver, just because it needs, in my oppinion, to find another route in these matchup

Hopefully any of you may be willing to share what your plans are for this match up ?

   

Hmm..yes I have been thinking about disrupt too. It is definitely a good card in the control and tps meta on that I agree with you. Reb may be just the card it needs.

I have been looking a lot on your list and as far as I can calculate you only play 15 lands. 

1 LOA
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 tolarian Acedemy
3 Island
4 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

I`m not quite sure if this is enough lands. Isn`t your manabase vulnerable?
-Vertigo

Mox Monkey:

Fact or Fiction is a game breaker in my oppinion and fulfills many roles in Control Slaver.

By the way what changes, do you suggest, using your deck as a platform would you undertake in a meta with lots and lots of gifts and Tps?




 

MoxMonkey:

The deck looks powerful but I would like to hear your opinions on the single Senseis diving top..

Is it good enough to replace such a synergistic card as Fact or Fiction?..the card being, in my oppinion, one of the trademarks of Control Slaver anno 2005--Let it be noted that I really like Senseis Diving Top but maybe it may just be too random.. this is naturally not an insult just a suggestion.

I think that your list is very comboish..perhaps a triskelion for the mirror may be a good choice..

Forcefieldyou:

I really like your list in that it is definitely still a control deck.suited towards control with minds eye and shaman..which i think may be a good idea to run-

In a sense i feel that both decks (and the others in this article) reveal a tendency which has been implicit in many ways in vintage that combo kills simply are too good not to include in ANY deck other than fish, stax and aggro (certainly oversimplified). We see it partly in foodchain, totally in combo, significantly in gifts ungiven and now as a threefold process in Slaver through either Mindslaver/pentavus, Goblin Charbelcher/mana serverance and burning wish tendrils. Whether this the way that slaver naturally has to evolve is a question only testing can reveal. I will try it out!

-Vertigo

After having read your brilliant article and the most of this discussion I can`t help not being a bit criticical of the sole darkblast. I fear that having read your article that echoing truth may be a better card because of greater versality. Naturally it is THE TECH in the mirror, stax and fish matchup but beyond goblin welder the build seems to have certain difficiculties with a resolved collosus. I just feel that any deck needs to have a viable answer to a tinker=collosus

Mind`s eye seems strong because of its massive card drawing potential in the control mirror. I look forward to testing it!

In my area the  metagame is primarily dominated by gifts ungiven and storm and oath. How would you make your deck in that meta? There is really not so much control slaver!

This is my first reply so please have patience!
l