Totally forgot to reread the ultimate. I use it so rarely, I figured I just remembered how it worked. That's unfortunate. For an ultimate, I naturally expect more than spell target only.

I was messing with this card yesterday, and found it rare but hilarious that after looting with it and Dack, it can combo with Dack's ultimate to steal creatures for profit.

Maybe one wouldn't be so bad. You could also rely on trinket mage for emerald and lotus mana, but I guess I agree that bomberman was a stretch given that there isn't much else green adds to the deck.

I'm pretty sure Dromoka beats a delver deck single-handedly. That's got to be worth something. I see him as a possible SB card in oath or any bomberman or gifts deck running unburial rites.

Mentor is better than tarm.

This list seems close to what I would play too except talrand seem outdated with mentor. I would add hurkyl's, top, and find room for 2 mentors if it were me. The manabase would be a bit worse with white, but not a big deal.

Marc

This is a great thread about how to build a mentor deck in the current meta. Much of what has been mentioned in this regard, I was thinking about before the original post. One thing that I hadn't considered that might warrant further discussion in a separate thread is  the SB plan against shops. The original post suggests (clearly and concisely) a plan of Hurkyl's backed by engineered explosives (EE) as an antiShop. I have often debated what would be the right card to follow hurkyl's in a slower control deck that doesn't usually win outright. I'd be curious what people think of this plan (which avoids a splash color like red) relative to more traditional SB options such as adding red for ingot chewer and possibly viashino heretic.

Marc
PS - I realize in this specific deck Hurkyl's performs an additional function related to generating massive board presence with mentor, and so is not a completely unrelated topic. I just think it is a worthwhile discussion for control decks not interested in mentor too. For example, could one play U/B control instead of Grixis with a similar SB plan against shops and be as competitive in that matchup?

I didn't want to make the blue angels players feel left out, but yeah. Bomberman is what I was thinking.

I really want to see this guy in a control humans deck with caverns, trinket mage, and skullclamp as a secondary draw engine.

It would be fun to play this in turbotez. The board control is great and sweeping pyromancer tokens while leaving your moxen intact is great

Has anyone thought of using Jotun grunt for a beater who can combat delve decks?

Marc

Edit: I was thinking more about targeting their graveyard too.

Have you tried Keranos instead of FTK. It can be natures claimed but otherwise can do a lot for one more blue. Top helps make it a bit more predictable too.

Marc

I hope decklists and tournament reports come out of this. I'm really excited to see a new control slaver list!

The ultimate for Dack is not particularly synergistic, I agree, but there are a few cards. Using fire/ice to steal two creatures or ice to steal a Jace, pyroblast to steal anything, or darkblast to steal creatures are all cards I might play without Dack.

Marc

I can't wait to until the day my opponent fateseals me with Jace bringing him to 13 loyalty counters, so I can get Dack's emblem then cast Ice targeting Jace and ultimate Jace my opponent within his own card. I suppose casting fire for double control magic won't be terrible either, or maybe even use his looting into darkblast and then threaten to take all of his creatures repeatedly. What  I like about this card is that each of his abilities are very synergistic with other cards played in vintage. I would play fire/ice, welder, pyroblast, darkblast, etc without Dack. He adds potential value to what people are already playing while allowing bolt or grudge to potentially answer blightsteel. Lastly, and card that brings back slaver is my favorite really. If has been too long.

Great podcast! I just finished it. One thought that kept recurring while I listened was the tension in combo control decks with using cards like mana drain as tempo versus valuable answer to key spells from your opponent and vampiric tutor for game ending combo piece or generic proactive finisher versus flexible tutor for silver bullet answer. Resolving the tension of how to play mana drain or vamp tutor follows from understanding your assignment of role as the combo or control deck at the moment you are evaluating the utility of your mana drain or vamp. It would be interesting to hear your guys thoughts on how you assign your role when playing combo control, more combo or more control, depending upon the matchup and how this role might switch as key plays progress throughout a given game or match.

I hope the above makes sense. I'm trying to suggest that proper play of vamp and drain might be a sequela of dynamic role assignment for a combo control deck. This is contentious, but interesting as vintage blurs these archetypes more than other formats, suggesting that an understanding of dynamic role changes between combo, control, and aggro might be a relatively unique skill for vintage, underdeveloped by those less familiar with this format and might make an interesting topic for a future podcast.

Marc

I wanted to start a thread about this topic beause I have noticed several top 8 control decks that have chosen to use extirpate as a 1-2 of in the sideboard and I'm not sure what decks and specific strategies this combats.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, I assume the card is better in control decks packing snapaster mage and duress effects. Snapcaster allows a flashbacked copy to be played that might allow you to choose a card that is not only in the opponent's graveyard but may be in his/her hand (since the first copy revealed his/her hand) negating the virtual card disadvantage of extirpate if you loose a card from your hand and don't return the favor. Duress gives similar knowledge of the opponent's hand plus might remove a card worth "extirpating" without requiring they cast it yet. I imagine for similar reasons extirpate might also be better in a control deck with Vendilion Clique for the same reason. Finally, I assume Wasteland might have synergy if you were to try to use extirpate as potential land destruction. All of this being stated, Extirpate rarely makes the cut as a main deck card, so there must be a better reason to sideboard Extirpate.

Clearly, it is at its best against graveyard strategies such as Dredge or Combo relying on Yawgmoth's Will, but as a sideboard card, there are much better options to combat Dredge such as Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Nihil Spellbomb, etc, and against combo, there is always flusterstorm and the rest of the control deck that is maindecked to have an advantage against combo. This leads me to believe that Extirpate is being used from the sideboard against other decks, which give the card a net advantage over these other narrower options to combat Dredge or Combo, specifically. My question to those who use it is "What decks do you bring it in against and how do you use it?", assuming you have cards such as snapcaster, counterspells, duress, wasteland, Vendilion Clique for support. Do you play it against shops and attempt to extirpate mishra's factory if you wasteland it? Do you play it against control to remove future Force of Will? It is clearly also good against oath if you manage to put one in the graveyard. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated as my gut tells me it is often just card disadvantage unless you know something (or have a great suspicion) for what's in the opponent's hand, yet people far better than I are putting this card in their sideboard. Thanks in advance.

Marc

In regards to the first list. If you're not playing stony silence and you are playing true name nemesis, why not try to fit in stoneforge and batterskull. Not bad in general and equipping true name is sick

Thanks everyone. I clearly misunderstood what people were saying. Toxic deluge indeed answers everything including TNN and blightsteel. I immediately thought it would be the card with the most impact but I underestimated TNN.

Sorry but can someone explain how TNN answers blightsteel? Doesn't the player get 10 poison counters after damage is reduced by TNN?

Marc

It's interesting to read your post. You and I have been testing the same decks. I recently added spell snare to my list after seeing Paul's list as well. Before I started playing versions of "the deck" I played a list almost identical to the one you are playing now. My biggest trouble was workshop decks where I couldn't afford to play snapcaster and another spell in one turn. That's what eventually lead me down a path to add deathrite shaman, dark confidant, and other creatures that could function as virtual card advantage for no extra mana beyond the initial casting cost. Have you found it difficult to play post sb games against shops with snapcaster as your only engine? I did. Have you tried young pyromancer in this build? You have a high instant count for snapcaster already. Dropping permanents against shops and having another blowout potential to compliment or ecen replace tinker might be good.

Marc

Rich,

 Thank you so much for the thoughtful response. I use to feel the same way about city of brass in a control deck, but after Jaime Cano got first at Eptovino (194 person tournament 9/2012) playing a control deck without a combo finish and 4 city of brass, I gave it another try. The only reason to play city in my opinion is to allow for more colorless lands. Initially, I didn't like it, but after adding 3 deathrite shaman (after Menendian suggested birds of paradise), I thought things improved. The life gain was helpful to mitigate the city, and I didn't need to use it as much. It is even sometimes nice to have down when your opponent puts sundering titan into play. My only constant debate is if the colorless strip effects and cavern are worth the distortion of the manabase, but clearly control decks with city are viable in general.

I think I will try to keep better track of how much life I loose to it, but I feel like strip effects plus deathrite ultimately decrease my need to tap city excessively and as a control deck I rarely tap out in a turn. I may also try to test a list without city, but since my deck is 5 colors that may prove too difficult.

Thanks again for the great feedback. I'm always amazed how accessible you, Mr. Menendian, and others in the community are despite your obvious success.

Marc

I hope this isn't inappropriate but I live in Atlanta and didn't know about this. When are they, and do people get together to test from time to time?

Marc

Another question with regard to mana base. Have you tried a single cavern of souls? It's great against control naming human with a notion thief in the sb, but I play a gorilla shaman and if you name shaman vs shops you can play pyromancer, deathrite, and gorilla shaman through chalice too. Maybe useful enough for md slot?

This is a little of topic, but it pertains to the manabase. I have been playing a 5c keeper list that is close enough to your list except the manabase is a little different. With deathrite shaman you are always interested in having lands in the graveyard, which is why in part you are playing 7 fetches (the other part being necessary mana fixing in a 4c deck). I have noticed that switching to city of brass plus wasteland is still a viable way to ensure colored mana through city of brass, while wasteland is great for so many reasons plus it bins two lands at a time (your opponent's land and wasteland itself), which has been useful with multiple deathrite in play in terms of mana production. Any thoughts on a manabase with city of brass and wasteland in this 4c control deck would be greatly appreciated? Personally, I have noticed the wastelands to be good because they compliment ancient grudge as mana denial, making ancient grudge better against non-shops and they obviously help in games against dredge, shops, and landstill. Against shops, I find removing a workshop can really slow them down and restore parody to there spheres. With a crucible in the SB it is also a great strategy against landstill. Against dredge, they're good because you can remove bazaars with deathrite after wasting them, so petrified field is less helpful. Curious to here others thoughts.
PS - Side note: Why no mana drain? Maybe it was just cute but dumping the colorless into clamp to draw a ridiculous amount of cards while leaving enough mana to play sorceries and replenish tokens is more fun than I've had in a while.

Mine would be snapcaster or Jace. Playing a snap caster recasting an ancestral and then surprise blocking to save Jace is just silly. Jace is also great. He is such a utility knife for everything and he even bounces snapcaster for extra virtual card advantage. What a pair. Dark Cnfidant would be next for all the reasons mentioned previously.

It was my freshman year of college at Caltech in 2000. I was feeling like I was working too hard and wanted to reward myself. I got a Black Lotus on eBay for $100 because it was signed so no one else wanted it.

Marc

This list runs 0 grave troll?! That's worth discussing. The downside is no 6 dredger and no DR target if you wanted for post board games. The advantage is more black creatures for I horrid and more thug to interact with ingot chewer for cage.

Other people's thoughts?

Marc

Posted from my I-phone.

A-1

 Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I looked at your lists when I was considering how to build thi ones. I will definitely have to try welder and shaman as well as mindbreak trap. I remember how sick that creature pair was in Demars' burning slaver list. As far as sacred cows, I have missed the mystical tutor most followed by vault-key. This deck has been an experiment and part of it was to not restrict myself at all in terms of tradition and see how I really feel when certain cards are missing.

Marc

Thanks for the thoughts! I will be reading your historical work in the near future but until then ill just take your work for it.

As far as gorilla shaman goes, I thought about in the SB against your deck and other big blue decks but main I felt like it wasn't enough against shops, and my original plan was to make the deck as strong as possible against workshops initially.

Marc